The Original Loose Cannon

[Tenta]

I love Brian Pillman as much as the next guy.... However, I also don't get completely why people find him to be so revolutionary. From what I remember, most people will tell you that Brian Pillman was revolutionary because, with him, you never knew what was real or fake. When he was in his "Loose Cannon" gimmick, people were shocked and awed... Was what they were experiencing a shoot? Was it really him, or was it his gimmick? Brian Pillman's gimmick is only revolutionary in that it worked the boys, and it heightened his worth to both the WWE and WCW, without having to wrestle many matches.

But first, before I go anymore into his gimmick, let me explain the conditions under which Pillman created his gimmick. And really, I can kind of see what he wouldn't want to wrestle more matches by the 1996, because the amount of drugs he was taking to actually get into the ring was astronomical. From his years of playing defensive tackle (Yes, he was a defensive tackle. That is particularly mind numbing to think he was a defensive tackle) in the NFL, which steroids and pain pills were a necessity to most players, and working in pro wrestling, the guy accumulated an amount of drugs in his body that he knew would kill him if he stopped taking them. Still, he had five children to support, as well. So, in order to try and preserve his life by avoiding taking these necessary drugs to get in the ring, he devised a gimmick that made him so popular, you were always watching to see what the guy was going to do next. The guy was able to maintain a main event caliber profile, and consequently sign a main event contract with the WWE, all without having to work too many matches. Unfortunately, as we know, the drugs still wound yp taking a toll, but at the time, it was a genius move. He was able to raise his stock with both companies, without having to work too many good matches, by basically working the boys.

And that's all well and great... Except someone actually managed to do pretty much the same thing, with far less talent than Brian ever had, and parlayed the sucess far longer than Brian Pillman. Who, you ask? Why, quite simply, this guy...

Now wait, wait, wait, don't leave this thread just yet... I'm about to explain why Kevin Sullivan and Brian Pillman are more alike than you think.

Both Worked The Boys, and the Fans... Even "Smarks"

Brian Pillman managed to get the boys to believe that his gimmick was real life, and while some aspects of his gimmick were real, most of them were pretty much swerves set up in secret by Eric Bischoff and Brian himself. Admittedly, sometimes even Eric couldn't tell what was real and fake with Brian. And that's all well and great, because Brian did make fools of anyone that actually bought into the gimmick, and didn't confide with Brian.

Kevin Sullivan, however, worked the boys into believing he was a flat out Satanist. Period. I mean, people actually believed in the Devil worshipping gimmick that he portrayed with the "Fallen Angel" during stints in the NWA and in Championship Wrestling From Florida. No one really talked to the guy, and everyone tried to stay as far away from the guy as possible. Sure, the guy also surrounded himself with a lot of goofy gimmicks (I.E. The Dungeon of Doom, The Army of Darkness in CWFL), but people backstage actually felt that it was a fair description of the guy. The guy, to most extents, tried to portray his gimmick as best he could outside of professional wrestling. Ironically enough, Kevin was so good at protecting kayfabe, when admittedly Brian worked the boys by breaking kayfabe. Still, Kevin had his fair share of folks that actually believed that he was a Godforsaken Satanist. And that's not all.... Rumors about this man, to this day, still abound. Some say he's a member of a nudist colony. Some say that he beat Nancy constantly from night to night (Now this, I grant, may have validity)

Need proof people believed he actually was a Satanist? Consider the Benoit double murder-suicide. People who remembered Kevin Sullivan (and the past Kevin and Chris had) had conspiracy theories that Kevin actually slipped into the house, killed Nancy, his son, and Chris, and left all of the clues to insinuate that Chris did all of these heinous crimes. People went back to a kayfabe feud, which started to turn into a real life situation that Kevin allegedly took well, to try and pin him to a case in which there's no way he could have had involvement, nor would he particularly have any reason for comitting the act. The angle inspired conspiracy theories, nine years after the incident occured.

Why? Because people actually believed the rumors. They believed what they had heard of Sullivan, and the boys didn't say anything to lead people to believe that anything less than what they heard was true. In truth, Kevin was never any of these things. He was never a satanist, nor a nudist. Truth is, the guy was just a mediocre wrestler from Massachusetts with a thick accent. Still, he was able to work over the boys so well, and have them believing all of the rumors in which people started about the guy. It got to the point that people actually made him a booker, because of two things.

1. He was good with kayfabe, and could see he had a good wrestling mind
2. Everyone was flat out scared of the guy, and din't want to say anything to insight his black magic and curses. Granted, he was working over members of the Bible Belt, mainly southerners with "good ol' boys" attitudes to them.

And it was completely at Sullivan's behest to work this gimmick. Why?

Because at his core, keeping kayfabe was his only true talent, from a wrestling standpoint. Sure, the guy could play a good gimmick, and have people buy into his shit. But at face value, the guy probably didn't even deserve a job in any of the major promotions. Where as Pillman had ample talent, and was able to keep his gimmick going for six months (granted, an extremely hot six months), Sullivan had little actual wrestling talent, and was able to keep a job in a major promotion for a good fifteen years. And it wasn't like the guy was a jobber.... He was placed into some decent angles that played off his "Satanist" background. Shit, the guy worked with Hulk Hogan at one point. The guy was able to keep a job, and even more startling, even received promotions to become a "booker" based solely off a gimmick he played and his ability to carry out in kayfabe. Realistically, the guy didn't even really deserve a job in the business for a good portion of his career. I'd say Kevin probably didn't deserve a job at about the point his feud with Dusty ended, well, let's go with 1983. Still, even after that, the guy was able to keep a job for a good fourteen years... Basically by portraying this demonic character. There was never a point in which Brian Pillman would have to worry about keeping a job. The guy had talent... There was always going to be some promotion was going to take him, based on his talent alone. However, Sullivan, without that gimmick, and pulling one over on the boys, would never have gotten nearly as far as he did in that professional wrestling.

Sullivan, like Pillman, worked the boys. He worked them into not realizing what was fact and fiction, and consequently, was able to preserve a career for himself. The only difference between these men is simple.... Sullivan needed to work the boys just keep a job, and was able to portray the gimmick for a remarkable amount of time.

Both men were able to work the boys.... Kevin Sullivan was able to do it under more dire situations, and for far longer than anyone, perhaps even Sullivan, could imagine. All of the acclaim we give Pillman for being revolutionary... It's been done. And done better by Kevin Sullivan.

 

[The Dewbliners]

Wow, Tentz, just wow! I openly admit to being the worlds biggest Pillman mark, to the point my Myspace profile pic is that of Brian's eyes. When I first saw this thread, I was thinking, "Oh, no, this is gonna make Pillman look like a total chump!" and "I can't believe somebodies trying to compare the Greatest Athlete from Cincinnati since Pete Rose, to an overweight midget."

Then, I read it. It actually makes sense, my friend. I had never thought about this, but Kevin Sullivan did, indeed, take a career that should have lasted all of 5 years (if that), and stretched it out for close to 30. And, that was with a molecume of the talent Pillman provided. Imagine what BP could have done, had he not suffered that tragic heart attack. I'm thinkin' he could have acheived the one goal that always eluded The Taskmaster: I believe The Loose Cannon would have wound up a Worlds Champion. But, that's neither here, nor there.

Your comparisons are terrifyingly accurate. I like to think there was another "Loose Cannon" before Sullivan, however. A man that everyone thought was crazy, and unpredictable. A man who kept kayfabe so close, people thought he would spell the end of several of their favorites: The Shiek! Tenta, what are your thoughts on that?

 

[Tenta]

The Sheik?

You know..... I never really even thought about it before, but you're right! The sheik, just like Kevin Sullivan, was perfectly able to keep kayfabe to the point, that most people thought he was a man from the Middle East. And he was a fucking maniac, both in and outside the ring. He lived his gimmick, just like Sullivan did. And if anything, the guy was a complete trendsetter. After all, he was the first man to throw fire. If we really wanted to break it down, he may just be the first hardcore wrestler in Professional Wrestling. The dude never spoke English, until he was long gone. And it did actually further his gimmick, perhaps more so than Sullivan's. You're talking about an era in which the tough guy was always respected, and always given a push. I know this is going into Gelgarin territory, but I'd love to see a man with the psychology of Lou Thesz (another man that "worked" the boys), and the Sheik made himself out to be a legit badass. No one fucked with Sheik... You'd be crazy to do so. He might cut off your arm, or throw fire in your face. The Sheik is a fantastic example.

My only question onto The Sheik is this.... I feel Eddie Farhat would have a job, even without that gimmick. I mean, don't get me wrong, that gimmick got him to the main event. However, there's two things, I feel, that separate Farhat from Sullivan.

1. Ed actually was born to Lebanese migrants, who moved to Michigan from the Middle East. Was he from The Sudan? Well, no, absolutely not. But the guy had legitimacy from his gimmick. He had something. Kevin Sullivan had absolutely nothing. I feel he pulled the Satanist thing out of his ass one day, and said he'd work with it. Before that, he was actually a face. So it's not like people could buy he was evil. People could The sheik was crazy and from the Middle East. With Kevin... Eh, it was Kevin. A guy from Boston.

2. The Sheik had far more talent than Kevin. Sheik never had to worry about a payday in his life. If he chose another gimmick, he may have been fine. People think he's tough, and I think he's a relatively tough guy himself. That would have gotten him over just as much in that era. Sullivan... He had nothing to get him over. Either than the fact that he was a "satanist".

And this goes into another man... What about Sabu? Ed taught him well, for sure. He got so fucking over with that crazy ass gimmick. I mean, The Sheik and Sabu? Yes, that's a prefect example of what I'm talking about, Dewey.

 

[Paradox]

Damn man.... Great post, you are right on the money, I really never thought about Sullivan, but damn. It makes a ton of since now that I think about. He really dove into his gimmick and made it believable, not only in kayfabe but in reality. I really don't have much other to say than that. Great post Tenta...

 

[Gelgarin]

It pains me to say it, but I think you're reaching a little.

I don't know much about Sullivan, but the one thing I have picked up about him is that he was indeed exceptionally dedicated to Kayfabe. The now unfortunately famous example of him insisting that Nancy travel and share hotel rooms with Benoit chiefly comes to mind with this.

That being said, I simply don't believe that the guys backstage ever thought that he was anything other than a guy dedicated to his gimmick. I'm pretty sure he'd been wrestling for quite a few years as a face before suddenly converting to the cause of Lucifer when he showed up in FCW. I just don't think people are going to buy into the idea that he has a sudden moment of religious revelation and decided that Goofy Satan was the one true lord.

What I think is more likely is that, since Sullivan ad a reputation for being dedicated to kayfabe, whenever one of the guys was questioned about him they'd answer "year, he was really like that" out of respect for his efforts.

As for the whole Benoit/murder... thing; I think it's important to recognise exactly who it was promoting those conspiracy theories. I only ever saw the front pace linked off of Wikiedia, but as memory serves the people pushing the conspiracy theory were one of those gutter papers that I can only compare to the Sunday Sport (a UK paper that has prints such stories as 'Double Decker Bus Found in Arctic Circle' and 'Cat Eats Bear'... alongside the typical 'Virgin Mary Burned into a Slice of Toast' stuff). I don't think I ever heard anybody serious treat those conspiracy theories with anything but contempt, and to take them as proof of how people bought into Sullivan's gimmick seems a bit premature.

It was a high profile celebrity murder, somebody was going to pitch some kind of daft conspiracy theory, and since Sullivan happened to be the guy who had the most interesting past connection to Benoit, they wrote about him. The whole satanic gimmick was just a coincodence the journalists took advantage of to make their story seem more interesting.

When it comes to working the fans, he was certainly one of the most dedicated men of his generation, but I don't buy that he was actually putting one over on the boys, or the smakrs for that matter. I'm a smark, and I sure as hell would never have bought into the dungeon of doom. That being said, I wasn't actually watching wrestling when most of this was happening (hell, I wasn't alive for some of it) so I could be dead wrong. An interesting read nevertheless.

The Sheik is another matter. I read his Wikipedia page after you asked and discovered that he used to hurl fireballs at people whilst out in public. That is fucking cool... Muta should start misting people when he walks down the street.
That being said, he also hid under a bus when Thesz got a bit rough with him, which doesn't sound like upholding kayfabe to me.

If you'll permit me to go off topic for a moment (just to make sure that the quality of discussion goes down a little bit today) I'm interested in your Thesz comment. I don't really buy that Thesz 'worked' the boys. I'm assuming that you're talking aboud his reputation for being the most tallented legit wrestler in the world. Whilst true that he certainly benefited from his 'this guy could snap you're ankle in an instant' reputation, but in fairness I ought to point out that all the evidence suggests that he really could. Karl Gotch, another of the more legit guys, attempted a double cross mid way through a match with Thesz and broke three of his ribs countering a backdrop. It took Thesz approximately fifteen seconds from having his ribs broken to having Gotch tap out. I firmly believe that Thesz was every bit as legit as the urban legends say.

 

[jmt225]

I could not disagree more with this, Tenta.

Kevin Sullivan was nothing more than a goofy, evil, devil worshiping cartoon character. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less. Did he scare people? Sure, a good little bunch, but back then it was easy for wrestlers to get fans to buy into what they were selling. Very, very easy, in fact. Any bad guy would get boos back then, and any good guy would get cheers. That's how it was. Was Sullivan a different type of heel for the times? Absolutely, but nothing he did suggest that he was the first, true Loose Cannon, because back then... every heel could have been categorized by that. Every fan hated heels, and there were a good number of heels who were feared by the audience as well.

Now, as far as Pillman.... listen, he made people buy into what he was selling in the mid-nineties. THE MID-NINETIES! At that point, something like that was literally impossible to do. And not only was he able to pull his character off in WCW and WWE, but also in ECW, which of course contained the most cynical, "smarky" wrestling fans walking on this planet. Even THEY thought Pillman was legitimately nuts.

The point here is man... Kevin Sullivan could have never, ever pulled off in the mid-nineties what he pulled off in the eighties. I respect Sullivan's accomplishments, but that last sentence is simply a fact, my friend. People would have looked at him as a big fucking joke. But Pillman? Shit man, EVERY wrestling fan bought into him. Every single one them, in a time where hardly any wrestlers were taken seriously, especially those on the mid-card where Pillman was. That's why he is, and forever will be, the original Loose Cannon.

 

[Барбоса]

A very interesting thread. Personally, I see a slight but important difference between guys like The Sheik and Kevin Sullivan who lived their gimmick so fully that you could believe that it was actually their own personality and someone like Brian Pillman.

Due to unfortunate circumstances, we will never really know just how much of his "Loose Cannon" gimmick was a work. I certainly got the feeling watching the end of his run in WCW and the beginning of his ill-fated tenure in WWF/E that there was something slightly unbalanced about Pillman. I know that anyone in a heated angle can accidently swear on national television but when you look into Pillman's eye during his "Rape, pillage and plunder" promo, to my mind there was something not quite right about him.

However, I am more than willing to give the devil his due and say that Pillman may just have been a very good actor.

 

[Jonno]

Pillman is god. I suppose it isn't hard to see that I am a total Pillman mark, so the very notion that the almighty Brian Pillman would be compared next to Kevin Sullivan is almost sickening to me. Sure, you raised some very good points which sounded very good in writing, but all you need to do is watch Pillmans promos and any matches pre car accident and compare them to ANYTHING of Sullivan's...The Taskmaster simply ain't got shit! Brian Pillman's story is one of the most tragic in all of wrestling and had it not been for him needing to have his ankle fused after the accident I have no doubt what so ever that he would have been WWF/E Champion. To me, Pillman was by far the most entertaining wrestler of the 90's and should be remembered as one of the all time greats. And anyone wanting to be a pro-wrestler should learn from his mistakes and take the proper time to heal.

 

[Tenta]

I could not disagree more with this, Tenta.

Damn it.... I was hoping not to draw JMT. Gelgarin, I'm not ignoring your post, for the record. There are some valid statements you've made, and caused me to think more on the subject. However, I think the fact that you described him as a man of incredible holding power in terms of living his gimmick somewhat makes my argument. The fact is, he rode that gimmick, and only that gimmick, to a twenty seven year run. You're correct in saying that he did have a face run before going to CWFL. And he didn't go over one bit. Being of small stature, he knew he needed something to stay afloat. And he managed that for a good, oh, fifteen years. That, friends, is sheer talent. As to your theory that the boys recognized it was his respect for kayfabe.... I don't particularly buy that, Gelgarin. I can distinctly remember one time, in which Kevin and Woman was doing a tour in Mexico. One of the luchas had an affair with woman, allegedly, and apparently, Sullivan did some thing (memory slips me, at this point) to the guy, and beat him up. He didn't hurt the guy too badly, but it was enough to scare the luchas stiff, and no one dared to approach the guy after that. Now, by any reasoning, Sullivan couldn't have done that much damage to the guy... I mean, look at Sullivan. Still, his reputation superceded him, and he was relatively left alone for the rest of the tour. And honestly... That's exactly what he wanted.

Besides that, if that truly was the case Gelgarin, the rumors would have stopped after five years. No one keeps a thing like "He's a satanist" going around for fucking fifteen years if they don't believe it. And even if the boys knew he wasn't a Satanist... Well, why wasn't he fired a long time ago? It wasn't like the guy had good, or for that matter decent matches most of the time. His bouts with Dusty Rhodes were absolutely atrocious. I personally feel that his cage match with Dusty Rhodes, a Loser Leaves Town match, was the worst cage match I've ever witnessed in my entire life. That should have been the end of the road for that guy. Still, he picked up work. And then more work. And then he went to Jim Crockett promotions, Smoky Mountain, ECW, WCW, you get the drift. It's obvious the guy had little talent, both in the ring or on the mic. Still, he was able to keep a job for fifteen years longer than he ever deserved.

Why? Because of that gimmick.

Well... I guess I did respond to Gelgarin . Gelgarin, I'm sorry I don't do the justice of completely breaking down your argument as I plan on attempting with JMT. Simply put, trying to answer the both of you, the exact same way, would be fucking murder for my mind. You put me into quite a pickle, Gelgy, I must admit. Hopefully, I replied with some sense of reasoning.

As to your point on Thesz.... I completely agree that he was every bit the shooter he was portrayed as backstage. I'd never to try to discredit Thesz' toughness. He's one of the best shoot fighters in the business. What I guess I'm getting at is he, like The Sheik, lived off of that reputation, though duly earned, for a good portion of time. He made his living off the fact that he was a legit badass, and you didn't want to mess with him.

Anyway, sorry, I wanted to do Gelgy justice. Yes, you make terrific points.

Kevin Sullivan was nothing more than a goofy, evil, devil worshiping cartoon character. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less.

I'd completely agree with that. He was evil, and devil worshipping, and, yes, goofy, for his on screen character. I'm not trying to argue that he isn't damn goofy. But the fact that he was able to carry said goofiness into a reputation, for far longer than he ever deserved a job, is remarkable. He worked his colleagues for that long... The man had a thirty seven year career.

I'll repeat that.... Kevin fucking Sullivan had a thirty seven year career. Do you mean to tell me his merits as a wrestler would insinuate he deserved that long a run? It's simple, JMT.... Sullivan was great, in that he blurred fact from fiction, both in and out of the ring. He lived out his character backstage, and was able to work the same men that had seen so many wrestlers pass through the door. Working the fans is one thing, JMT.... working other professional wrestlers, who understood every aspect of what a gimmick is, and to some extent should attempt what Sullivan did, is a complete other. I give far more credit to a wrestler that can work the boys, and then working the crowd into blurring that fact and fiction line comes with said working of the boys.

Did he scare people? Sure, a good little bunch, but back then it was easy for wrestlers to get fans to buy into what they wanted. Very, very easy, in fact. Any bad guy would get boos back then, and any good guy would get cheers. That's how it was.

You go on to talk about this later, but while we have it, I'm going to address this line of argument. It's one thing to get boos and cheers... To actually frighten the fans, that was something else in it's entirety. Wrestling fans aren't disturbed by, nor really scared by, very much, nor are actual wrestlers themselves disturbed by much. In the business they're taking part in, you have no room for fear. Still, Sullivan was able to breed this feeling from the boys, and the fans, that he was actually this goofy gimmick.

And that's something else I should throw out there... He did it with a far more ridiculous gimmick than Pillman's. Brian's gimmick was east to blur the line between fact and fiction... All he had to do was shoot every night. Simply put, all he ever had to be was himself. Sullivan had to go out of his way to create an otherwise laughable concept, that most people don't particularly see. I mean, how many Satanic nudists do you here about in the world? Doesn't the premise alone just seem truly preposterous? If anyone ever told you that about someone you just met at a bar, you'd probably laugh it off, as a joke.

But with the boys, it wasn't a joke. People legit bought into it. They bought into this gimmick that Sullivan created, to the extent that everyone just took it as "fact" that Sullivan was indeed a Satanist.

Was Sullivan a different type of heel for the times? Absolutely, but nothing he did suggest that he was the first, true Loose Cannon, because back then... every heel could have been categorized by that. Every fan hated heels, and there were a good number of heel who were feared by the audience as well.

Again, there's a fine line between working the audience, and working the boys. Sullivan and Pillman have that in common... That separates themselves from the other heel gimmicks you were referring to. Not many other people typically carry around that heel status once they were backsatge. Vader, one of the most dominant and scary individuals in wrestling, was often described as a sensitive guy backstage. Curt Hennig, for all of his playing into the gimmick that he was perfection, and simply better than anyone, really didn't even try to carry such an attitude; he was one of the boys, and a constant ribber and overall good guy. No one backstage really bought into these men, or many other heel's, personas, to the point that they could carry them backstage, and no one would see any difference. There's only three heels that come to mind, right now, that lived their gimmick to the fullest of extents, to the point that everyone believed that gimmick was who thatwrestler was. Those three are Ric Flair, Brian Pillman, and Kevin Sullivan. Flair never really cared much for working the boys... It's Pillman and Sullivan that made their careers of hazing that line between fact and fiction.

And in comparison, Sullivan was able to carry out his gimmick, both backstage and in the ring, for a good twenty years. Granted, it'd be interesting to see what would have happened to Brian had he not passed away. But by the time he reached the WWE, his need to work the boys... Well, it was no longer a necessity. He had gotten exactly what he wanted, and was free to cut the bullshit with the boys backstage. If Sullivan were to ever have let go of that gimmick, and the belief that he was this Satanist, he would have been fired so fast, it's not even funny. Sullivan created this aura about him backstage that, even with horrendous mic skills and little wrestling talent, kept him a job for thirty seven years.

Now, as far as Pillman.... listen, he made people buy into what he was selling in the mid-nineties. THE MID-NINETIES! At that point, something like that was literally impossible to do. And not only was he able to pull his character off in WCW and WWE, but also in ECW, which of course contained the most cynical, "smarky" wrestling fans walking on this planet. Even THEY thought Pillman was legitimately nuts.

JMT, you know I'm an ECW mark myself... What you say is completely correct. However, what Pillman did, in my eyes, was use the dirt sheet and internet you're implying, and use it against itself. That's all he really had to do. No one was going to speak out against it, and at the time, smarks believed a good portion of shit that came out of publishments like The Wrestling Observer Newsletter. Hell, even compare the smarks today, JMT, and you'll realize that they like to latch on to any thing that has a shred of credibility. For example, take the situation of Christian's re-debut into the WWE. Smarks were so sure he was debuting at the Royal Rumble, and really, they had little reason to believe in such a thing. Smarks, for the most part, will take the most outrageous story possible, and run with it. Brian Pillman knew that, and played the smarks like a fiddle. In short, the dirt sheets that usually tear down kayfabe actually aided Brian Pillman in his twisted manner of using kayfabe to his own advantages.

The point here is man... Kevin Sullivan could have never, ever pulled off in the mid-nineties what he pulled off in the eighties. I respect Sullivan's accomplishments, but that last sentence is simply a fact, my friend. People would have looked at him as a big fucking joke. But Pillman? Shit man, EVERY wrestling fan bought into him. Every single one them, in a time where hardly any wrestlers were taken seriously, especially those on the mid-card where Pillman was. That's why he is, and forever will be, the original Loose Cannon.

Don't giet me wrong, I'm not trying to discredit that Pillman was great at what he did. But for the record.... Well, Sullivan actually did keep that gimmick running in the mid 90s. Let's examine:

1990-1992: Recreates this devil worshipping gimmick in NWA/WCW. Teams up with the One Man Gang, The Fallen Angel, and Black Blood. Still keeps that Satanist thing running.

1992-1993: Keeps it running in Smokey Mountain. Same sort of Satanist background, and the reputation speaks for Sullivan. By this point, all the rumors were there... He didn't need to do too much to really work the boys. They were already worked.

1993-1994: ECW. Admittedly, I don't remember much of his run in ECW. But if people didn't at least buy what was being sold about Sullivan, he would have failed miserably in ECW. Fact is, I remember him being in a team with Taz, and those two were actually looking to destroy people. Taz, guided by the hand of the Satanist member of backstage, this new terror that arises, in Kevin Sullivan

1994-1997: WCW. Yes, I know, here comes the Dungeon of Doom, right? Well, let's not forget JMT, that he was working with Hulk Hogan, before WCW really kicked it into gear, and started to cater more to the 18-48 demographic. By this point of the Dungeon of Doom, WCW was marketing to kids. And there's no outright way to say to the kids that the villain is a Satanist because, well, that's some pretty deep shit. So instead, they chose to present a kiddy version of Sullivan to appease the kid fans. WCW wasn't geared to the fans we are now, JMT... It was geared to the kids that loved Hulk Hogan. There's no way Sullivan had any chance of portraying his Satnist gimmick completely to the fans... He could only merely imply it. Meanwhile, by this point he had ascended to booker backstage. Not for any talent of his own. Not for any particular charisma. Simply enough, because people were completely creeped out by him, and he continued to get promotions.

Again, JMT, I think we're on different wave lengths. Sure, you're talking about working the fans, and that's pretty good means for a debate. However, I'd reason to say that is infinitely harder to work the boys than it is even the smarkiest of smarks. And in that capacity, Sullivan was able to do it longer, with less talent, and carry himself into a lofty position as a head booker when it was all said and done. All completely based on that one work, that lasted a good twenty years

 

[Tenta]

Sure, you raised some very good points which sounded very good in writing, but all you need to do is watch Pillmans promos and any matches pre car accident and compare them to ANYTHING of Sullivan's...The Taskmaster simply ain't got shit!

I'm not saying Sullivan is a great worker. I've said many times in this discussion that he was a mediocre worker at best. And you know what? That actually helps my argument.

Want to know why? Because, simply enough, Brian didn't have to work the boys to have a job. Pillman was always going to have a job, based on his talent alone. Sullivan, meanwhile, had nothing. He had no great ring skills, nor was he a great promo man. All he had to him was that gimmick, and it kept him afloat.

For, well, thirty seven fucking years. Being able to work the boys for that long with such an exaggerated gimmick, and with little actual talent, is what makes his working of the boys far more remarkable than Pillman's working of the boys. And that measure, Sullivan out-cannoned The Loose Cannon

 

[jmt225]

Damn it.... I was hoping not to draw JMT.

Hey, when you try to take away Brian Pillman's nickname, it's on.

I'd completely agree with that. He was evil, and devil worshipping, and, yes, goofy, for his on screen character. I'm not trying to argue that he isn't damn goofy. But the fact that he was able to carry said goofiness into a reputation, for far longer than he ever deserved a job, is remarkable. He worked his colleagues for that long... The man had a thirty seven year career.

But there are several wrestlers like that. Take Taz, for example. He lived his character behind that curtain in ECW. Some wrestlers took him seriously, and others didn't, but that doesn't make him anything. If there is one wrestler who bought into Sullivan's goofiness, that doesn't mean he should be granted the Loose Cannon gimmick, because at the end of the day... it doesn't matter what the boys think. It's all about the fans, man. Back then no one was going to tell people you weren't who you claimed you were. And it's like my main point in my other post, fans back then were much, MUCH easier to fool than the fans of the nineties and today.

Also, the boys might have bought that nonsense at first, but there's no way you can quote a wrestler claiming that he thought Sullivan was his character for a long period of time. A lot of people in the business hate Sullivan, and it's not because of his character, but because he fucked over a lot of people whenever he had the book for his respective company.

I'll repeat that.... Kevin fucking Sullivan had a thirty seven year career.

Impressive indeed, but Pillman made more of an impact on the business in 10 years than Sullivan made in 37. What does that tell you?

Do you mean to tell me his merits as a wrestler would insinuate he deserved that long a run? It's simple, JMT.... Sullivan was great, in that he blurred fact from fiction, both in and out of the ring. He lived out his character backstage, and was able to work the same men that had seen so many wrestlers pass through the door. Working the fans is one thing, JMT.... working other professional wrestlers, who understood every aspect of what a gimmick is, and to some extent should attempt what Sullivan did, is a complete other. I give far more credit to a wrestler that can work the boys, and then working the crowd into blurring that fact and fiction line comes with said working of the boys.

Dude, it doesn't really impress me that someone lives their character behind the scenes. It really doesn't. Anybody can do it. If, let's say, Kevin Thorn continued being a vampire while the cameras weren't rolling, would that all of the sudden make him a great worker? Should he be pushed for that alone?

You go on to talk about this later, but while we have it, I'm going to address this line of argument. It's one thing to get boos and cheers... To actually frighten the fans, that was something else in it's entirety. Wrestling fans aren't disturbed by, nor really scared by, very much, nor are actual wrestlers themselves disturbed by much. In the business they're taking part in, you have no room for fear. Still, Sullivan was able to breed this feeling from the boys, and the fans, that he was actually this goofy gimmick.

I'll give Sullivan credit for that, but you know what? Papa Shango scared audiences as well I'm sure.

Also, back in the eighties, put Sullivan in Memphis, in the same ring with a babyface Jerry Lawler, and let him do something REALLY fucked up that the fans bought into. Let's see how frighten those fans are, and let's see Sullivan's reaction when they start to riot. Does he stay in character and try to fight everyone off, or does he high tail it like a bitch? I'm pretty sure it's the latter.

Fans back then were only frightened when they couldn't trust a babyface enough to overcome the odds, and Sullivan didn't really have any notable, legendary feuds back in the day. Even ignoring the murder/suicide, before that tragedy Sullivan's feud with Benoit was what he was most remembered for. And that's a fact.

And that's something else I should throw out there... He did it with a far more ridiculous gimmick than Pillman's. Brian's gimmick was east to blur the line between fact and fiction... All he had to do was shoot every night. Simply put, all he ever had to be was himself.

How do you know Pillman was being himself?

And also, it takes a LOT of balls to do what Pillman did every night. That guy would go all out every single time he stepped through that curtain. He didn't give a fuck who he pissed off, or what the repercussions of his actions were. This guy went out in South Philly and said the 'N' word. Come on, man. That's heat. That's a fucking Loose Cannon.

Sullivan had to go out of his way to create an otherwise laughable concept, that most people don't particularly see. I mean, how many Satanic nudists do you here about in the world? Doesn't the premise alone just seem truly preposterous? If anyone ever told you that about someone you just met at a bar, you'd probably laugh it off, as a joke.

Cool man, Sullivan played a character well. I can admit that. But what I cannot admit to is that it's more impressive what he was able to accomplish more so than it is what Pillman was able to do during his short run as a nutcase.

But with the boys, it wasn't a joke. People legit bought into it. They bought into this gimmick that Sullivan created, to the extent that everyone just took it as "fact" that Sullivan was indeed a Satanist.

I'm sure not one wrestler really thought Sullivan was that fucked up. Being a Satanist, if you look it up, really isn't all that bad. Hell, for all we know, he just might be one. But if any wrestler bought into all that spooky, ridiculous nonsense, then I would lose respect for that person. From what I understand, wrestlers thought that Sullivan and Nancy were into some really kinky shit, but their fascinations didn't go any further than that.

Also, bringing up Nancy, if you look at Woman back then, she was MUCH more convincing than Sullivan was. I think without her, Sullivan's character doesn't work at all, because she was the one who really made it legitimate and not such a joke. God rest her soul, but she was an evil, evil looking lady, and her voice and actions matched that look.

JMT, you know I'm an ECW mark myself... What you say is completely correct. However, what Pillman did, in my eyes, was use the dirt sheet and internet you're implying, and use it against itself. That's all he really had to do. No one was going to speak out against it, and at the time, smarks believed a good portion of shit that came out of publishments like The Wrestling Observer Newsletter.

That's kind of false, man. Hulk Hogan lit an Observer Newsletter on fire on a WCW pay-per-view. And Shane Douglas use to bitch about shoot stuff himself all the time. But no one could do it, and still have the fans buy it like Pillman did. Not only did he say "Fuck you" to dirt sheets and what not, but he gave a big FUCK YOU to every single wrestling fan out there, and anybody who didn't like what the fuck he had to say.

Pillman fucking owned, man. He really did. I miss him more than any other wrestler that has passed early.

Hell, even compare the smarks today, JMT, and you'll realize that they like to latch on to any thing that has a shred of credibility. For example, take the situation of Christian's re-debut into the WWE. Smarks were so sure he was debuting at the Royal Rumble, and really, they had little reason to believe in such a thing. Smarks, for the most part, will take the most outrageous story possible, and run with it. Brian Pillman knew that, and played the smarks like a fiddle. In short, the dirt sheets that usually tear down kayfabe actually aided Brian Pillman in his twisted manner of using kayfabe to his own advantages.

But still man, if it was that easy and simple, then how come nobody else did it before then? It's because no one else had the balls, and Pillman knew he was convincing enough to pull it off. And what makes it even more impressive, he did that after being a LOVED, smiley babyface for years and years. Sullivan debuted his gimmick from the get go. Pillman did a complete 180. Somebody who can play two completely different characters, yet get over with both of them, should impress the hell out of you.

Don't giet me wrong, I'm not trying to discredit that Pillman was great at what he did. But for the record.... Well, Sullivan actually did keep that gimmick running in the mid 90s. Let's examine:

1990-1992: Recreates this devil worshipping gimmick in NWA/WCW. Teams up with the One Man Gang, The Fallen Angel, and Black Blood. Still keeps that Satanist thing running.

Nothing he did there was really memorable though man. Nothing.

1992-1993: Keeps it running in Smokey Mountain. Same sort of Satanist background, and the reputation speaks for Sullivan. By this point, all the rumors were there... He didn't need to do too much to really work the boys. They were already worked.

So you think Jim Cornette was really worked by Sullivan, man?

1993-1994: ECW. Admittedly, I don't remember much of his run in ECW. But if people didn't at least buy what was being sold about Sullivan, he would have failed miserably in ECW. Fact is, I remember him being in a team with Taz, and those two were actually looking to destroy people. Taz, guided by the hand of the Satanist member of backstage, this new terror that arises, in Kevin Sullivan

I guarantee not a soul in ECW bought into Sullivan's shit. Hell, how could they? Nancy was managing Sandman at that point, so everyone knew the shit was a COMPLETE work by then, including the fans.

1994-1997: WCW. Yes, I know, here comes the Dungeon of Doom, right? Well, let's not forget JMT, that he was working with Hulk Hogan, before WCW really kicked it into gear, and started to cater more to the 18-48 demographic. By this point of the Dungeon of Doom, WCW was marketing to kids. And there's no outright way to say to the kids that the villain is a Satanist because, well, that's some pretty deep shit. So instead, they chose to present a kiddy version of Sullivan to appease the kid fans. WCW wasn't geared to the fans we are now, JMT... It was geared to the kids that loved Hulk Hogan. There's no way Sullivan had any chance of portraying his Satnist gimmick completely to the fans... He could only merely imply it. Meanwhile, by this point he had ascended to booker backstage. Not for any talent of his own. Not for any particular charisma. Simply enough, because people were completely creeped out by him, and he continued to get promotions.

Eh, I think it was as goofy then, as it was in the eighties. It's just that type of shit stopped getting over by the time 1991/1992 rolled around. Paul Heyman said on The Rise and Fall of ECW DVD that the band Nirvana single handily changed the music industry, but they really changed society period. People were tired of that goofy shit in general and wanted something more serious and edgy. And if you tried to shove something as ridiculous as Sullivan's gimmick down people's throats, they just weren't going to buy it.

However, Brian Pillman, unlike Sullivan, knew how to adjust with the times and he did something that worked.

Again, JMT, I think we're on different wave lengths. Sure, you're talking about working the fans, and that's pretty good means for a debate. However, I'd reason to say that is infinitely harder to work the boys than it is even the smarkiest of smarks. And in that capacity, Sullivan was able to do it longer, with less talent, and carry himself into a lofty position as a head booker when it was all said and done. All completely based on that one work, that lasted a good twenty years

Again man, I don't really think he worked the boys like you think. Yeah, wrestlers thought he and Nancy were into some freaky shit, but let Sullivan come backstage and insult everyone. I'd bet everything I own that someone would get up and beat the shit out of Sullivan for it. And that's because you can't fool the boys into thinking you're the scariest motherfucker on the planet.

 

[owenhartfan]

JMT..Why do you state that your obvious opinions are facts. I seen you do that a bunch of times already. Opinions aren't facts and thats a fact. Plus it really seems like you don't get Tenta's point at all still. He didn't claim once that Sulivan had a great career or that he was better then Pillman. Sulivan was the "Loose Cannon" before Pillman because he made a career out of fooling the boys and the crowd into believing his gimmick was real. Sulivan lasted 37 years or whatever because of that. Pillman> Sullivan= NO SHIT! lol
Nice post Tenta it was an interesting read and I never thought about that before. Glad I read it.

 

[Big Sexy]

It's almost impossible to have an original gimmick today because pretty much everything has been done before. However, it is possible to take a gimmick thats been used before and raise it up a few levels. That is what Brian Pillman did.

Pillman as the loose cannon for the few years that he had the gimmick was a million times better then Kevin Sullivan ever was. Pillman was superior in just about every way. He made the gimmick more believable, he had more success with it, and he was just an all around better performer then Sullivan.

I'm not taking anything away from Kevin Sullivan because he was a solid performer but he just isn't on Pillman's level. People associate the gimmick with Pillman for the simple fact that he did it better then anyone had ever done before.

 

[jmt225]

JMT..Why do you state that your obvious opinions are facts. I seen you do that a bunch of times already. Opinions aren't facts and thats a fact.

Tenta and I have a huge mutual respect for one another. This is how we debate. For example, he says Shelton Benjamin sucks; I say he doesn't. Neither are facts, but we present them as such because there's no point in having an opinion if you don't believe it to be true.

Also, the only time I even used the word fact in my post was to say Sullivan was most remembered for his feud with Chris Benoit. And guess what? That really is a fact. That feud happened while pro wrestling was on the verge of another boom period, and it was a HUGE part of Nitro at the time. Everybody loved it, and the matches and heat sustained was well remembered years and years later, more so than anything else in Sullivan's career. That's really not an opinion, but an actual fact. One I'm sure both Tenta and even you agree with.

Plus it really seems like you don't get Tenta's point at all still. He didn't claim once that Sulivan had a great career or that he was better then Pillman. Sulivan was the "Loose Cannon" before Pillman because he made a career out of fooling the boys and the crowd into believing his gimmick was real.

Where did I say that Tenta claimed Sullivan was better than Pillman? Oh, that's right... nowhere, that's where.

And I get Tenta's point, but I still feel it doesn't justify calling Sullivan the original Loose Cannon. That is Brian Pillman's moniker and always will be. I've already explained in this thread why that is so.

 

[Jonno]

Maybe I'm just confused, but how could anybody possibly think that Sullivan was the "Original" Loose Cannon? Pillman wasnt the Loose Cannon because he "worked the boys", he was the Loose Cannon because when you put him out there on live t.v you never knew what the hell he was going to do!
And with good reason as well. It was guys like Sullivan that were trying to hold down guys like Pillman. The Hollywood Blondes were split up for no reason at all other than jealous old men who were scared of real talent.

Pillman got himself over by being totally outrageous and unpredictable and to make sure he didn't get shut down he simply stopped telling anyone what he was planning. The Loose Cannon gimmick was something that Pillman crafted and designed to get himself over with the fans, and it worked to. When he left WCW and showed up in ECW he was the most talked about man in wrestling and the most valuable free agent at the time. Why else would WWF/E have signed him to a multi-year contract knowing that he would probaly never wrestle the same way he did against guys like Liger? Because they saw that the Loose Cannon gimmick was exactly the direction where wrestling was going. There will only ever be one Loose Cannon, and it certainly isn't some midget Satanist wannabe like Sullivan.

My fondest memory of Kevin Sullivan is his "Respect" Strap match against Brian Pillman.

 

[Tenta]

Hey, when you try to take away Brian Pillman's nickname, it's on.

Yeah, I actually had a funny feeling about this one. While I’m at it, I may as well tried to have said that ECW was a shitty promotion, and that Friday Night Lights is the absolute worst adaptation of what High School football is like. Yeah, I should have known I would awaken you, JMT. Then again, you’re one of the best here, so perhaps I should be glad that I could draw you in debate. After all, you can never drag in a good poster with a shit argument, eh?

Yeah, I get it, I get it… Trying to take away from The Legacy of Brian Pillman is, admittedly, something painful for myself, as well. I guess I should point out, before I continue this argument, that I’m personally a fan of Pillman. I do feel his work is a bit underrated, and that if he didn’t have the accident that would permanently set back his career in 1996, perhaps we’d be talking about him as a former heavyweight champion. Personally, I doubt it, unless he were to have gained an extra ten to fifteen pounds of muscle. But I wouldn’t try to discredit his contributions to the wrestling world. My argument is that, even before Pillman came to Eric Bischoff with the idea to “work the world”, there was someone that did it, for longer, and didn’t even go to the owner of the promotion and let him in on the secret. Now, as we’re about to see, surely we disagree with how much Sullivan worked the boys, but again, we have to deal with the fact that we’re taking this issue with revisionist history. Sure, now it’s easier to say now that Sullivan didn’t work the boys, and Pillman did, because Sullivan’s “gimmick” was so exaggerated. However, if Sullivan never came out and cleared all of the rumors from his name, we’d probably be placing him, currently, with the likes of Damien Demento and the like of wrestlers that are truly messed up individuals, and should have sought counseling a long time ago. While Pillman’s working of the boys had to do with what you saw on screen, Sullivan’s work entailed both works on and off screen, so of course now after twelve years it’s easy to say, “Oh sure, he didn’t work too many of the boys.” The fact is that we’re dealing with such an embellished personality in Sullivan that now that we know most of what’s said about him is true, it’s almost obvious to state that no one believed in him. Pillman didn’t really have to do anything nearly as loopy as Sullivan… Sure, his antics raised eyebrows, but when one considers the drugs Brian was taking at the time, and the pressure the man put on himself on a constant basis, it’s not that difficult to make people believe you’ve snapped. Shit, I bet you could do it at your work place, right now, if you really wanted to, JMT.But if talked with anyone that worked with Sullivan in any of his lengthy stints in a promotion, I can guarantee you that people would think the guy was absolutely evil to the core. Am I trying to state that I’m speaking for every single wrestler Sullivan has worked with? I dare not even try. What I’m saying is that there’s legitimate reason to believe the man had people fooled, especially the people that mattered, in promoters and bookers. After all, we’re dealing with a guy with mediocre abilities, that never had any true friends in the business, especially when it came to promoters. Still, the guy always managed to keep a job, and not only that, but was always on path to promotions. Something there just doesn’t add up… How did this man keep getting work, for that long, with few friends to back him? Perhaps, and I’m just throwing this out there, more people bought into Sullivan’s gimmick than you give him credit for. How else did he manage in the wrestling business, JMT? Luck?

But there are several wrestlers like that. Take Taz, for example. He lived his character behind that curtain in ECW. Some wrestlers took him seriously, and others didn't, but that doesn't make him anything. If there is one wrestler who bought into Sullivan's goofiness, that doesn't mean he should be granted the Loose Cannon gimmick, because at the end of the day... it doesn't matter what the boys think.

Hmm…. A good argument. However, we’re dealing with two flaws in said belief system.

1. We’re dealing with two matters, one of which is tangible, and the other intangible. You pointed to Taz, and it’s actually a great comparison. After all, if you’re arguing against Sullivan, why not use the guy that allegedly ejaculated from being suplexed by the guy? . Actually, I should really stop that, as I’m a fan of Taz. Still, the comparison we’re making isn’t completely valid. What Taz tried to pull over on the boys was that he was a legitimate tough guy. Now, a man like Bruiser Brody or Lout Thesz would laugh at anyone who thought this man was half as tough as he attempted to portray himself. Still, you do have a point in saying that Taz tried to work the boys, and he may have been able to sway some of the workers into buying into it. The problem is, something like toughness can easily be proven against via manner of a shoot fight, or something else to call him out on it. There’s a way to disprove that a man is tough… Stick up to him, and call him out on it. That’s essentially what happened to Dynamite Kid… For years, he tried to portray himself as a legitimate tough guy, heckling everyone around him and generally being a pompous ass backstage. Then, one day, Jacques Rougeau came around, and punched Dynamite so hard, his jaw was broken. Dynamite Kid was never the same… What once was a legit badass in the wrestling business became a shell of his former self, and a listen of never how to conduct business with the boys. Has the same ever happened to Taz? I suppose no story has ever come out about such a thing occurring. My point is, though, that toughness is something that can be portrayed easily in front of others, but can be just as easily disproven.

Meanwhile, when it comes to someone being a member of the occult… Well, how the fuck do you plan on disproving that? If someone is playing up to that idea, and is feeding this belief to whomever is starting the rumors, how do you plan on proving the guy isn’t a Satanist? I can tell you how such a thing would go.

“Hey, I know you’re not a Satanist!”

“Really… And how do you figure that one?”

“Well… I saw you going to Church last week.”

“…. No you didn’t….”

“Oh… Well, it could have been you going to Church!”

You see my point, JMT. If Sullivan was really pulling out all this occult crap backstage, and was playing up to this idea of being a Satanist, how exactly do you try and disprove him? Oh, and let’s add that, as even you admit, Sullivan played the gimmick extremely well backstage, and was able to play off that gimmick for thirty seven years? Do you really think there’s a generally foolproof manner in which to disprove the guy?

It's all about the fans, man. Back then no one was going to tell people you weren't who you claimed you were. And it's like my main point in my other post, fans back then were much, MUCH easier to fool than the fans of the nineties and today.

And again, here’s a another bit of a flaw in the argument.

2. For what these two contributed to the business, pulling one over the boys is far more important than fooling the fans. Fans are not the ones that release the wrestlers, and put them out of jobs, at least directly. Fans are not the ones that sign the pay checks, and fans are not the ones that decide who gets television time. At least, from a direct standpoint. If anything, the fact that the fans didn’t click with Sullivan (and admittedly, fans were somewhat uninterested in Sullivan) makes what Sullivan did even that much more remarkable. Even when fans didn’t see him as a man that wasn’t particularly interesting, bookers still booked him, and owners kept giving the man a fucking pay check. They, at least in their minds, knew something the fans didn’t know. What could it have possibly been? That the guy was due for a mid-life growth spurt, and that they should have kept him on payroll simply because of that? No, there had to be some reason they kept this guy in the wrestling business, and since we’ve already covered that it had little to do with actual talent or friendships with the head guys, there leaves a reasoning as to what this guy possibly did to warrant a pay check, let alone constant promotions, to the point that they made the guy a fucking booker. All we have that we’re aware of the guy is that he didn’t have much talent, and pulled some freaky shit backstage. And I’m a little inclined that the freaky shit led more to the promotions than the lack of talent.

Also, the boys might have bought that nonsense at first, but there's no way you can quote a wrestler claiming that he thought Sullivan was his character for a long period of time. A lot of people in the business hate Sullivan, and it's not because of his character, but because he fucked over a lot of people whenever he had the book for his respective company.

Fair enough point, but realize this, JMT… Sullivan only had the book from 1995 to 1999. That means you still have about fifteen years of Satanic shit to explain for JMT. It’s not as though Sullivan came into the wrestling world with the book in his hands. After a fairly long career of making fools of the boys, it was then he received the book.

Impressive indeed, but Pillman made more of an impact on the business in 10 years than Sullivan made in 37. What does that tell you?

That’s arguable, at best. Kevin was a booker during WCW’s white hot streak, from 1996 to about 1998. Sure you can say that the New World Order was major factor in this, but part of what was so beautiful about the N.W.O. was how it was booked. Kevin was the one that booked the heels to get all of that built up heat from when the New World Order was at its peak, from 1996 to 1997. It was him that had a fairly large hand in making the N.W.O the juggernaut that it would eventually become.

What’s that, you say? Pillman had classic matches that Sullivan never did? That’s funny, because the only legitimate match that sticks out in my mind for Brian Pillman was his match with Jushin Liger in 1990. Either than that, I just never saw too much of Pillman in the ring that would convince me he was a tremendous hand in the ring. That is, unless you count such marvels as Brian Pillman VS. Goldust as classic wrestling. Now, I know it’s a tad unfair to compare Pillman in those months, what with the amount of drugs the guy was on, and what happened with his ankle, but I’ve yet to see a match with Brian Pillman, besides that Liger match, that really stands out. Sullivan at least had a feud that most everyone in the wrestling world remembers, in his feud with Chris Benoit. Plus, those that were fans of the territories can at least remember his feud with Dusty Rhodes, arguably the biggest babyface not named Hulk Hogan in that era, in CWFL. That feud was pretty memorable, sat least for folks fond of this era. Oh, and it provided Kevin with the CWFL Heavyweight Title. Now, I’m not so sure on Pillman, but I doubt you’ll find the moniker, “Heavyweight Champion” attached to his name.

Dude, it doesn't really impress me that someone lives their character behind the scenes. It really doesn't. Anybody can do it. If, let's say, Kevin Thorn continued being a vampire while the cameras weren't rolling, would that all of the sudden make him a great worker? Should he be pushed for that alone?

Funny…. Especially when, well, superstars have no respect for kayfabe nowadays. And people wonder why it’s so difficult to suspend disbelief. Look, pulling kayfabe is much harder than you make it out to believe. And for the record, the guy never completely “lived out” his character. Just backstage. Otherwise, the guy was a fairly regular guy.

I’ll put it this way… I find it more of an accomplishment for someone to keep kayfabe for thirty years then for someone to break kayfabe, even if white hot. Granted, that’s another rant, and another thread, for another time. I’m a mark for kayfabe, so yes, anyone that can keep that gimmick up for that long is impressive.

I'll give Sullivan credit for that, but you know what? Papa Shango scared audiences as well I'm sure.

Yeah, which is exactly why he lasted all of one year. Instead of, you know, fifteen or twenty. With that same gimmick

Also, back in the eighties, put Sullivan in Memphis, in the same ring with a babyface Jerry Lawler, and let him do something REALLY fucked up that the fans bought into. Let's see how frighten those fans are, and let's see Sullivan's reaction when they start to riot. Does he stay in character and try to fight everyone off, or does he high tail it like a bitch? I'm pretty sure it's the latter.

Boy, isn’t revisionist history fun? That depends. Are we smartening up fans to our standards now? Sure. But if it’s the eighties, I’m sure that people aren’t going to truly want to test him, and try to find out. Dealing with a different audience here.

Fans back then were only frightened when they couldn't trust a babyface enough to overcome the odds, and Sullivan didn't really have any notable, legendary feuds back in the day. Even ignoring the murder/suicide, before that tragedy Sullivan's feud with Benoit was what he was most remembered for. And that's a fact.

Again, depends. His feud with Dusty is memorable. The only thing was that it didn’t happen in a “major promotion” like the WWE or WCW in the mid 90s. You put that feud on display for all to see, not only the folks of Florida, mind you one of the hottest territories of the seventies and eighties, and we’ll see how that works. Granted, like I said, you can’t change history, but still, that feud with Dusty was pretty damn good. Just not placed on display for the world to see on national cable.

How do you know Pillman was being himself?

Hey, if I were that roided up, and how that many pain pills in my system, I’d be a Loose Cannon, too. Brian’s lifestyle basically makes it seem as though the guy was himself out there. Simply put, there’s a reason the guy was dubbed “destructive”. Probably because… Well, he was destructive.

And also, it takes a LOT of balls to do what Pillman did every night. That guy would go all out every single time he stepped through that curtain. He didn't give a fuck who he pissed off, or what the repercussions of his actions were. This guy went out in South Philly and said the 'N' word. Come on, man. That's heat. That's a fucking Loose Cannon.

Or, that’s a guy who’s desperate to get over, and knows he has to pull out all the stops in that promotion. You know, whichever one…

Cool man, Sullivan played a character well. I can admit that. But what I cannot admit to is that it's more impressive what he was able to accomplish more so than it is what Pillman was able to do during his short run as a nutcase.

So I’m confused, JMT… Do you indeed believe that Pillman was acting like a nutcase, or are you unsure, as you seemed a couple of quotes ago?

I'm sure not one wrestler really thought Sullivan was that fucked up. Being a Satanist, if you look it up, really isn't all that bad. Hell, for all we know, he just might be one. But if any wrestler bought into all that spooky, ridiculous nonsense, then I would lose respect for that person. From what I understand, wrestlers thought that Sullivan and Nancy were into some really kinky shit, but their fascinations didn't go any further than that.

So I’m confused again… Do you believe that he’s a Satanist, pr not? Just the fact that you’re willing to second guess yourself even now, twelve years after he was away from the spotlight, should at least tell you about how good the guy was. JMT, you’re a pretty smarky guy man… If you’re really second guessing yourself now, I’m not so sure that you completely believe in what you’re arguing man. As for your belief that you’d lose respect for him, that’s all well and good. But again, you have the revisionist history playing on your side, of you knowing that what the guy did was indeed a work. Quick question… If we went by all of Brian Pillman’s antics, wouldn’t we be able to dissect them and say, “Well, he’s just working”?

As a matter of fact, we can. And here’s why… Because if he was really shooting as much as people believed then, Eric wouldn’t have kept him on camera. We now know (again, revisionist history) that Bischoff was at least partially in on this Loose Cannon gimmick. We know that Brian went to him with the gimmick, and while sometimes he went a bit far, Eric knew what was going on. Eric is a smart man… It doesn’t behoove him to keep a guy like that on camera so much, if he doesn’t know what he’s going to do, and if the guy is shooting or not. If we apply your same revisionist history on Brian as you did Kevin, it actually becomes blatantly obvious that the guy was simply working.

Also, bringing up Nancy, if you look at Woman back then, she was MUCH more convincing than Sullivan was. I think without her, Sullivan's character doesn't work at all, because she was the one who really made it legitimate and not such a joke. God rest her soul, but she was an evil, evil looking lady, and her voice and actions matched that look.

You’ll get no argument from me there, man. I love Woman just as much as the next guy. Let’s move on.

That's kind of false, man. Hulk Hogan lit an Observer Newsletter on fire on a WCW pay-per-view.

Right…. So Hulk Hogan is the definition of the term “smark”… Hulk Hogan is as far from a smark as The Big Show is from being in shape. There’s a reason he burnt in on PPV… They were saying bad things about him. Things that the smarks who read that paper were reading, believing about the guy and, consequently, booing the shit out of him for. Besides that, there was no way Hulk was getting those Smark fans that were the aim of that specific segment on his side.

And Shane Douglas use to bitch about shoot stuff himself all the time.

Well, those shoots used to come from the likes of men like Ric Flair. Again, Flair doesn’t really strike me as a name that Douglas is going to be able to rally a lot of angst from the smarks about. Smarks love Ric Flair. They love him almost as much as Bret Hart. Sure, Shane wasn’t going to get a lot of support on that war.

But no one could do it, and still have the fans buy it like Pillman did. Not only did he say "Fuck you" to dirt sheets and what not, but he gave a big FUCK YOU to every single wrestling fan out there, and anybody who didn't like what the fuck he had to say.

Pillman fucking owned, man. He really did. I miss him more than any other wrestler that has passed early.

I miss him, too. Sure, he owned. But the thing is, the man broke kayfabe to get over. I honestly don’t see much of a talent in it. He was a great wrestler… I don’t see the need for him to have broken kayfabe as much as he did.

But still man, if it was that easy and simple, then how come nobody else did it before then? It's because no one else had the balls, and Pillman knew he was convincing enough to pull it off. And what makes it even more impressive, he did that after being a LOVED, smiley babyface for years and years. Sullivan debuted his gimmick from the get go. Pillman did a complete 180. Somebody who can play two completely different characters, yet get over with both of them, should impress the hell out of you.

Yeah, sure it does. But I still put more on emphasis on someone who was able to stay withing kayfabe as compared to someone that didn’t stay within kayfabe.

Again man, I don't really think he worked the boys like you think. Yeah, wrestlers thought he and Nancy were into some freaky shit, but let Sullivan come backstage and insult everyone. I'd bet everything I own that someone would get up and beat the shit out of Sullivan for it. And that's because you can't fool the boys into thinking you're the scariest motherfucker on the planet.

But you can fool people into buying in that you’re just freaky as fuck, and that there’s nothing about you that seems like a guy you don’t want to have on your bad side. That was Sullivan, for all of the reasons I’ve already listed.

 

[jmt225]

Yeah, I actually had a funny feeling about this one. While I’m at it, I may as well tried to have said that ECW was a shitty promotion, and that Friday Night Lights is the absolute worst adaptation of what High School football is like. Yeah, I should have known I would awaken you, JMT. Then again, you’re one of the best here, so perhaps I should be glad that I could draw you in debate. After all, you can never drag in a good poster with a shit argument, eh?

I <3 you, too.

My argument is that, even before Pillman came to Eric Bischoff with the idea to “work the world”, there was someone that did it, for longer, and didn’t even go to the owner of the promotion and let him in on the secret.

But see if that were the case, wouldn't more people have realized it? You have a very creative, intelligent mind Tenta, but this observation is very far fetched. If Sullivan was this revolutionary, then surely he would get recognition for it. And before you say WWE changes history and all that, we have the internet. We see fans everyday come to messageboards and praise the shit out of wrestlers who never get mentioned on WWE television. However, Sullivan isn't one of them, and that's simply because there's not much to remember him by. If this gimmick was so "real" and everyone, including workers, bought it... then Sullivan's legacy would be much, much higher.

Now, as we’re about to see, surely we disagree with how much Sullivan worked the boys, but again, we have to deal with the fact that we’re taking this issue with revisionist history. Sure, now it’s easier to say now that Sullivan didn’t work the boys, and Pillman did, because Sullivan’s “gimmick” was so exaggerated.

Where exactly is your proof that so many wrestler bought it? Dude, I have a lot of shoot interviews, and Raven, who is one of my all time favorite wrestlers, is the ONLY person I can remember raving about Sullivan's work. He doesn't get mentioned by others, even those he worked with, unless it has something to do with his booking in WCW. Surely, if he fooled everyone, more workers would have stories, wouldn't they? The boys LOVE to be fooled, because they love to tell a good story later. However, we don't hear any stories on Sullivan.

However, if Sullivan never came out and cleared all of the rumors from his name, we’d probably be placing him, currently, with the likes of Damien Demento and the like of wrestlers that are truly messed up individuals, and should have sought counseling a long time ago.

I highly doubt that, man. Sullivan wouldn't be remembered much at all if it weren't for Benoit, Pillman, and for the fact he got the WCW book.

While Pillman’s working of the boys had to do with what you saw on screen, Sullivan’s work entailed both works on and off screen, so of course now after twelve years it’s easy to say, “Oh sure, he didn’t work too many of the boys.”

I still don't understand where you're getting this information from that he fooled everyone? Like I said, after the Benoit death, I remember wrestlers mentioning that Sullivan and Woman's sex life being freaky, but that's it. And hell... for all we know, they probably were kinky in bed. And if they weren't, then why do they deserve credit for being able to make people think they had a weird sex life? Hell, I can do that at work if I wanted to. Shit, I could do it here on a wrestling forum if I like it, lmao. As could you and anyone else.

The fact is that we’re dealing with such an embellished personality in Sullivan that now that we know most of what’s said about him is true, it’s almost obvious to state that no one believed in him.

Wait... is that a typo, because I thought the point of this topic was to give Sullivan credit because the shit that is said about him was NOT true? But now you're saying the wrestlers assumptions, that you think they had, were indeed true? I'm confused...

Pillman didn’t really have to do anything nearly as loopy as Sullivan… Sure, his antics raised eyebrows, but when one considers the drugs Brian was taking at the time, and the pressure the man put on himself on a constant basis, it’s not that difficult to make people believe you’ve snapped.

Tenta, come on my man. Pillman didn't become addicted to drugs until the car accident. Did he do steroids before then? Sure, but what wrestler didn't? I'm sure Sullivan did them as well. But it wasn't until Pillman's car accident until he became an addict. So, with that said... his antics in WCW, and in the early points in ECW, like his EPIC debut, was all him straight as narrow, making the "smartest" wrestling fans on the planet buy what he was selling.

Shit, I bet you could do it at your work place, right now, if you really wanted to, JMT.

Yeah, I could, but I don't have the balls to do so. I won't go in my work place and say the "N" word. I won't threaten to whip my dick out and take a piss in the middle of the place. I won't call my boss out in front of everyone. And neither would Sullivan, today or in the eighties. Why? Because he's not a Loose Cannon.

But if talked with anyone that worked with Sullivan in any of his lengthy stints in a promotion, I can guarantee you that people would think the guy was absolutely evil to the core.

Can you provide proof, Tenta?

Am I trying to state that I’m speaking for every single wrestler Sullivan has worked with? I dare not even try. What I’m saying is that there’s legitimate reason to believe the man had people fooled, especially the people that mattered, in promoters and bookers. After all, we’re dealing with a guy with mediocre abilities, that never had any true friends in the business, especially when it came to promoters. Still, the guy always managed to keep a job, and not only that, but was always on path to promotions. Something there just doesn’t add up… How did this man keep getting work, for that long, with few friends to back him? Perhaps, and I’m just throwing this out there, more people bought into Sullivan’s gimmick than you give him credit for. How else did he manage in the wrestling business, JMT? Luck?

No, not luck. I'll tell you why. Because he got over with the fans (one thing I never took away from him). It's as simple as that. In this business, if you get over with the fans, the promoters will book you. That's it. That does not mean he fooled promoters and wrestlers. There are plenty of guys in the business who were hated by the people in charge and by the wrestlers, but they consistently got booked because they were over with the audience.

1. We’re dealing with two matters, one of which is tangible, and the other intangible. You pointed to Taz, and it’s actually a great comparison. After all, if you’re arguing against Sullivan, why not use the guy that allegedly ejaculated from being suplexed by the guy?

.

That's a rumor, Tenta, not a fact.

Actually, I should really stop that, as I’m a fan of Taz. Still, the comparison we’re making isn’t completely valid. What Taz tried to pull over on the boys was that he was a legitimate tough guy.

Exactly, which was what his character was. His character was that of a shoot fighter, who could kill ANYONE in the UFC. So, yes.. the comparison is valid because it's a case of a wrestler trying to fool his co-workers by making his gimmick seem real, because the fact is, while Taz is a legitimate black belt in Judo, he's not a real tough guy. But it wasn't until Rob Van Dam punked him out backstage until a lot the boys stopped buying into it.

Now, a man like Bruiser Brody or Lout Thesz would laugh at anyone who thought this man was half as tough as he attempted to portray himself.

Actually, no they wouldn't. I'm pretty sure they would admire the fact he was able to get so over with a shoot gimmick, just like themselves.

Still, you do have a point in saying that Taz tried to work the boys, and he may have been able to sway some of the workers into buying into it. The problem is, something like toughness can easily be proven against via manner of a shoot fight, or something else to call him out on it. There’s a way to disprove that a man is tough… Stick up to him, and call him out on it. That’s essentially what happened to Dynamite Kid… For years, he tried to portray himself as a legitimate tough guy, heckling everyone around him and generally being a pompous ass backstage. Then, one day, Jacques Rougeau came around, and punched Dynamite so hard, his jaw was broken. Dynamite Kid was never the same… What once was a legit badass in the wrestling business became a shell of his former self, and a listen of never how to conduct business with the boys. Has the same ever happened to Taz? I suppose no story has ever come out about such a thing occurring. My point is, though, that toughness is something that can be portrayed easily in front of others, but can be just as easily disproven. Meanwhile, when it comes to someone being a member of the occult… Well, how the fuck do you plan on disproving that? If someone is playing up to that idea, and is feeding this belief to whomever is starting the rumors, how do you plan on proving the guy isn’t a Satanist? I can tell you how such a thing would go.

“Hey, I know you’re not a Satanist!”

“Really… And how do you figure that one?”

“Well… I saw you going to Church last week.”

“…. No you didn’t….”

“Oh… Well, it could have been you going to Church!”

You see my point, JMT. If Sullivan was really pulling out all this occult crap backstage, and was playing up to this idea of being a Satanist, how exactly do you try and disprove him? Oh, and let’s add that, as even you admit, Sullivan played the gimmick extremely well backstage, and was able to play off that gimmick for thirty seven years? Do you really think there’s a generally foolproof manner in which to disprove the guy?

This is a fair enough point, and I agree it's easier to disprove someone being tough then it is of someone being evil. But still... Taz fooled some of the boys, like you claim Sullivan did, so by your standards, he should be given a shit load of credit. This is all about fooling the boys, Tenta; it doesn't matter how someone did it. If they did, they should be given a lot of credit for it, according to your stance.

And Tenta, that Dynamite Kid story is full of shit. Everyone knows Rougeau sucker punched Dynamite. The only people who "lost" respect for the Dynamite Kid were those who hated him in the first place beforehand. However, you hear one person talk shit about him, does that person have a story where he stepped up to Dynamite and kicked his ass? Nope, because they were scared of him. Now, I'm not praising Dynamite's actions when it comes to his backstage antics because he was a hateful, cruel son of a bitch, but still... no one fucked with him.

For what these two contributed to the business, pulling one over the boys is far more important than fooling the fans.

I completely disagree. Fooling the boys doesn't put money in your pocket like fooling the fans does.

Fans are not the ones that release the wrestlers, and put them out of jobs, at least directly. Fans are not the ones that sign the pay checks, and fans are not the ones that decide who gets television time. At least, from a direct standpoint.

But in a way, yes they are. If the fans don't react to a wrestler, then they're fired. That's it. It doesn't matter what the wrestlers and even bookers think of the performer, if the fans aren't buying it, then that person will not keep his job.

If anything, the fact that the fans didn’t click with Sullivan (and admittedly, fans were somewhat uninterested in Sullivan) makes what Sullivan did even that much more remarkable. Even when fans didn’t see him as a man that wasn’t particularly interesting, bookers still booked him, and owners kept giving the man a fucking pay check.

Dude, but Sullivan DID click with the fans during his heyday. He was over as fuck.

And even when he was bombing in WCW, he was bombing against Hogan, who the fans would go nuts for no matter what. And besides, after that debacle, he would make up for it with his amazing program with Benoit.

They, at least in their minds, knew something the fans didn’t know. What could it have possibly been? That the guy was due for a mid-life growth spurt, and that they should have kept him on payroll simply because of that? No, there had to be some reason they kept this guy in the wrestling business, and since we’ve already covered that it had little to do with actual talent or friendships with the head guys, there leaves a reasoning as to what this guy possibly did to warrant a pay check, let alone constant promotions, to the point that they made the guy a fucking booker. All we have that we’re aware of the guy is that he didn’t have much talent, and pulled some freaky shit backstage. And I’m a little inclined that the freaky shit led more to the promotions than the lack of talent.

Tenta, I have no idea why you really believe Sullivan fooled bookers. Okay, seriously... let's look at what companies he worked for.

Georgia Championship Wrestler. Here, he was a face for the most part, so it's irrelevant who was booking.

Championship Wrestling From Florida. Now, this is where the gimmick started, in 1987. Eddie Graham was the booker. EDDIE FUCKING GRAHAM. You really believe Eddie Graham bought into that shit?

Jim Crockett Promotions. A lot of different guys booked here during his stay, but Sullivan didn't even do his devil worshipping gimmick anyway. He was in the fucking Varsity Club. So, if the boys and promoters bought the devil worshipping gimmick before joining Crockett, the mystery died when he began the Varsity Club.

Smokey Mountain Wrestling. You're not fooling Jim Cornette and that's all there is to it.

ECW. Don't need to explain this one.

WCW. Of course by this point, he was a joke until the Benoit feud, and after that he took the book himself.

So, again, Tenta... where the fuck do you get this belief that Sullivan fooled bookers? There's no way he did. No way.

Fair enough point, but realize this, JMT… Sullivan only had the book from 1995 to 1999. That means you still have about fifteen years of Satanic shit to explain for JMT.

Actually, no I don't. Sullivan only did the gimmick for a few years in Florida. That's it. Once he went to Crockett, if there was any worker who thought Sullivan's gimmick was real, it was exposed then that it was indeed fake.

It’s not as though Sullivan came into the wrestling world with the book in his hands. After a fairly long career of making fools of the boys, it was then he received the book.

It wasn't a long career though. When he started the Varsity Club, that's that. No one could have ever thought again that this guy was truly evil.

That’s arguable, at best. Kevin was a booker during WCW’s white hot streak, from 1996 to about 1998. Sure you can say that the New World Order was major factor in this, but part of what was so beautiful about the N.W.O. was how it was booked. Kevin was the one that booked the heels to get all of that built up heat from when the New World Order was at its peak, from 1996 to 1997. It was him that had a fairly large hand in making the N.W.O the juggernaut that it would eventually become.

Okay, fine.

But I still say as a worker and on-screen personality, Pillman left more of a lasting memory in 10 years than Kevin Sullivan did in 37.

What’s that, you say? Pillman had classic matches that Sullivan never did? That’s funny, because the only legitimate match that sticks out in my mind for Brian Pillman was his match with Jushin Liger in 1990. Either than that, I just never saw too much of Pillman in the ring that would convince me he was a tremendous hand in the ring. That is, unless you count such marvels as Brian Pillman VS. Goldust as classic wrestling.

Where did I bring up Pillman's matches? I didn't. Besides, I have to give Sullivan credit there because while most of what he did was complete shit, his matches with Benoit top anything Pillman's ever done, including the matches with Liger. However, still... Pillman was the better worker. While he doesn't have many "great" matches under his belt, he has a shit load of good ones. And as a character and promo cutter, the guy was much better and more intriguing than Kevin Sullivan.

Now, I know it’s a tad unfair to compare Pillman in those months, what with the amount of drugs the guy was on, and what happened with his ankle, but I’ve yet to see a match with Brian Pillman, besides that Liger match, that really stands out.

Hmm... what about the main event for Canadian Stampede? And what about his work with the Hollywood Blondes? None of those matches stand out? Come on now, Tenta.

As a singles competitor, he had a couple of great matches with Liger, I remember a great match he had with Raven at Bleach Blast, and he also had some terrific matches against, in my opinion the most underrated wrestler in history, Brad Armstrong. Oh, and let's not forget his strap match with Sullivan, which was very good. Fuck, that whole storyline was good, and it was all because of the TRUE Loose Cannon, Brain Fucking Pillman.

Sullivan at least had a feud that most everyone in the wrestling world remembers, in his feud with Chris Benoit.

People remember Pillman's matches with Liger. They remember his run with The Hollywood Blones. They remember his feud with Kevin Sullivan. They remember his debut in ECW. They remember his run with the Hart Foundation. They remember his feud with Goldust. And they remember the night they heard he passed away. To indicate that Pillman hasn't been apart of some memorable stuff is completely wrong my friend.

Plus, those that were fans of the territories can at least remember his feud with Dusty Rhodes, arguably the biggest babyface not named Hulk Hogan in that era, in CWFL. That feud was pretty memorable, sat least for folks fond of this era. Oh, and it provided Kevin with the CWFL Heavyweight Title. Now, I’m not so sure on Pillman, but I doubt you’ll find the moniker, “Heavyweight Champion” attached to his name.

Funny, because if it was really THAT memorable, it surely would have gotten some time on Dusty's DVD, wouldn't it?

Funny…. Especially when, well, superstars have no respect for kayfabe nowadays. And people wonder why it’s so difficult to suspend disbelief.

I agree. One of the things that's hurting professional wrestling right now is the lack of respect the workers have for kayfabe.

Look, pulling kayfabe is much harder than you make it out to believe.

Now this, I don't agree with. All you have to do is know your surroundings, and keep your distance from those 'not in the know'. However, in today's World... wrestlers just don't try.

I’ll put it this way… I find it more of an accomplishment for someone to keep kayfabe for thirty years then for someone to break kayfabe, even if white hot. Granted, that’s another rant, and another thread, for another time. I’m a mark for kayfabe, so yes, anyone that can keep that gimmick up for that long is impressive.

Sullivan did not keep kayfabe for 30 years, though. To claim he did is an extreme exaggeration, unless you can prove otherwise.

Yeah, which is exactly why he lasted all of one year. Instead of, you know, fifteen or twenty. With that same gimmick

But that was because it was a different time. If Papa Shango debuted his gimmick in CWFL in the eighties before Sullivan arrived, you don't think he would've gotten over?

His feud with Dusty is memorable.

It's really not though, man.

The only thing was that it didn’t happen in a “major promotion” like the WWE or WCW in the mid 90s. You put that feud on display for all to see, not only the folks of Florida, mind you one of the hottest territories of the seventies and eighties, and we’ll see how that works. Granted, like I said, you can’t change history, but still, that feud with Dusty was pretty damn good. Just not placed on display for the world to see on national cable.

Like I said, if it was that good, then Dusty would have made sure it was covered on his DVD. But it wasn't, so I guess Dusty doesn't rank it up there as one of his better feuds. And no one in WWE, who do a great job of making sure to fill in as much as possible for these DVD releases, thought it was necessary to include a match or chapter with Sullivan involved.

Hey, if I were that roided up, and how that many pain pills in my system, I’d be a Loose Cannon, too. Brian’s lifestyle basically makes it seem as though the guy was himself out there. Simply put, there’s a reason the guy was dubbed “destructive”. Probably because… Well, he was destructive.

You could not be more wrong. If Pillman was the way he acted on TV, then he wouldn't have been friends with anyone in the business. But RVD has gone on record saying Pillman was one of his closest friends. Every single person in the Hart Foundations LOVED Pillman. Pillman and Shane Douglas were really close. And other than Sid, you didn't hear many stories of the boys having a problem with Pillman, did you? Nope. Most guys who were in the same locker room with Pillman, but weren't friends with him, all say that Pillman was quiet and kept to himself.

And please drop this drug shit Tenta. Every wrestler back then was loaded on them. Every single one of them. It was a different era then than it is today.

Or, that’s a guy who’s desperate to get over, and knows he has to pull out all the stops in that promotion. You know, whichever one…

What do you mean desperate? Pillman was over with the Tiger tights, and in the Hollywood Blondes. And then he came up with something new and different that wasn't being done. You can't take anything away from the fact that he got over with a gimmick HE created, no matter what it was.

So I’m confused, JMT… Do you indeed believe that Pillman was acting like a nutcase, or are you unsure, as you seemed a couple of quotes ago?

What are you talking about? Pillman acted like a nutcase ON-SCREEN. Never did I claim that he was one behind the scenes.

So I’m confused again… Do you believe that he’s a Satanist, pr not? Just the fact that you’re willing to second guess yourself even now, twelve years after he was away from the spotlight, should at least tell you about how good the guy was. JMT, you’re a pretty smarky guy man… If you’re really second guessing yourself now, I’m not so sure that you completely believe in what you’re arguing man.

I'm not second guessing myself at all. I'm just saying it wouldn't surprise me if he was a Satanist. Do you know what a Satanist is, Tenta? It's NOTHING like what Sullivan portrayed. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Christopher Daniels or Edge were Satanist, because it's no big deal. The Satanist bible actually has some redeeming qualities and it's nothing like you'd ever expect. But since it has "Satan" in the name, people assume they're nothing but a bunch of devil worshippers. However, they don't believe in the devil, and I don't think Kevin Sullivan ever did either, which was his gimmick. His gimmick was that of a devil worshipper. So, no... I'm not second guessing myself, at all.

As for your belief that you’d lose respect for him, that’s all well and good. But again, you have the revisionist history playing on your side, of you knowing that what the guy did was indeed a work. Quick question… If we went by all of Brian Pillman’s antics, wouldn’t we be able to dissect them and say, “Well, he’s just working”?

I'm talking about the wrestlers backstage, not the fans. The fans can buy anything they want. Hell, as a fan myself, I want myself and everyone else to buy into what we see on a wrestling program. It makes it fun. However, if a WORKER was dumb enough to believe Sullivan was in real life like he was on-screen, then yes... I would lose respect for that person's intelligence.

As a matter of fact, we can. And here’s why… Because if he was really shooting as much as people believed then, Eric wouldn’t have kept him on camera. We now know (again, revisionist history) that Bischoff was at least partially in on this Loose Cannon gimmick. We know that Brian went to him with the gimmick, and while sometimes he went a bit far, Eric knew what was going on. Eric is a smart man… It doesn’t behoove him to keep a guy like that on camera so much, if he doesn’t know what he’s going to do, and if the guy is shooting or not. If we apply your same revisionist history on Brian as you did Kevin, it actually becomes blatantly obvious that the guy was simply working.

This has nothing to do with my argument. Never did I say Pillman was fooling the boys. He fooled the fans, as did Sullivan did back in the day (hell, Sullivan even fooled the fans with the Varsity Club, because he was never an amateur wrestler).

Right…. So Hulk Hogan is the definition of the term “smark”… Hulk Hogan is as far from a smark as The Big Show is from being in shape. There’s a reason he burnt in on PPV… They were saying bad things about him. Things that the smarks who read that paper were reading, believing about the guy and, consequently, booing the shit out of him for. Besides that, there was no way Hulk was getting those Smark fans that were the aim of that specific segment on his side.

I wasn't claiming Hogan was the definition of a smark. You said that no one ever brought up shoot stuff in wrestling like the Observer and what not, and I simply stated that was false because Hogan actually did when he burned the Newsletter on pay-per-view.

Yeah, sure it does. But I still put more on emphasis on someone who was able to stay withing kayfabe as compared to someone that didn’t stay within kayfabe.

Fair enough, but I still found Pillman ten times more interesting and entertaining than Sullivan ever was, which automatically makes me respect his accomplishments more than Sullivan's.

But you can fool people into buying in that you’re just freaky as fuck, and that there’s nothing about you that seems like a guy you don’t want to have on your bad side. That was Sullivan, for all of the reasons I’ve already listed.

But like I said, anyone could do that in any workplace. Why does that make Sullivan so great, and how in the World does it make him the original Loose Cannon?