In this case, the number of IC titles he's held is meaningless. You see, I respect guys like Team 3D when they say they are 20 time tag champs, which as far as I know is a record. That's the top title in their division. I respect Ric Flair for 16 WHC, or potentially more, depending on the way you want to count them, because that means 16 times it was decided "We want this man to carry our show/company" whatever. But Jericho's 8 reigns on a midcard title? The greatest thing he can say is that he's a fantastic midcarder.
If the title became useless, its due to creative being unable to create midcard stars but we all know the best Jericho IC title reigns happened when the title still meant something; before the brand expansion when he was battling contenders like Benoit, Edge, Christian and Guerrero. So maybe some reigns stunk but that was after the title became worthless.
I'll give you that it's an assumption, but let's be realistic. Unless creative had an active, hating vendetta against the title, Jericho could have easily walked out with his belt, and made sure he was announced as IC Champion. Perhaps asking for a title match would have been pushing it, but what if he had said "When I fight Shawn at Judgment Day, how about we make it for the IC Title, create some more buzz?" I guarantee you, unless there was an active vendetta against it, that match could easily have been for the title.
Good point, I’ll give you that. Not making that match for the IC was just another bad move on the part of creative, because if it seemed like even a season veteran and multiple time world champion would want the IC title, it would appear more valuable.
Triple H wouldn't love to say "I wish the first Undisputed champion"? He would, but he was hurt. So, there needed to be someone who could job to him, but not a major player, because that would make them look bad. Hence, Stone Cold and the Rock were out, so they call upon Jericho to carry the title for Triple H. He was nothing more than a belt warmer
Of course he would and I bet it just eats away at him to know Jericho has that accolade and no one, not now, not ever, not even HHH will ever be able to call himself Undisputed Champion but to say the sole intention they gave Jericho the title reign to begin with just to keep it warm for HHH is still unfound and merely speculated. As we’ve established, Jericho had been embroiled with a major feud with The Rock and was red hot with the crowd until he started his heel turn going into Survivor Series. Why wouldn’t WWE give him a title reign? Whether or not HHH was returning was irrelevant; if they were adamant against giving Jericho such a prestige accolade, as I said, they could have had Kurt Angle keep the title warm until Wrestlemania for HHH. Not like it would have mattered; having Hogan/Rock that year was going to sell tickets anyway and Angle wouldn’t have looked bad losing to HHH. They couldn’t have had Austin drop the belt to HHH because HHH was returning as a baby face. Don’t you think that if he faced somebody like Stone Cold at Wrestlemania, the fans might not cheer him as hard or be divided at best? WWE needed a fresh heel to reign for HHH to dethrone, so Jericho was more than just a belt warmer as you claim; he was the ideal antagonist to face HHH in the storyline Stephanie was involved they had in mind. I’m not saying I liked the program, but sometimes heel title reins appear transitional because they have to drop the belt to the biggest baby face around; it was HHH at the time, and if it hadn’t been HHH, it would have been Hogan who had returned red hot as well. And don’t forget, HHH won the title from Jericho, only to have a shorter title reign than Jericho himself by dropping it to Hogan the following month.
I'd really like to find a person who considered JBL a great champion.
He won’t go down as the greatest WWE champion ever, no doubt, but to say he didn’t have a good title reign would be biased. When you are dominant from The Great American Bash all the way to Wrestlemania, retaining against guys like Undertaker, Eddie Guerrero, Booker T, Kurt Angle and Big Show, you know you had a good title reign.
Um. Edge and 'Taker were on separate brands in '06, not even close to each other.
That matters why? Brands haven’t meant much in years. They’ve switched guys around and had wrestlers compete on different brands all the time with little explanation other than “I love the talent deal exchange our [generic RAW GM] made with [generic SmackDown GM.]
As far as not knowing when Cena was coming back, why does that matter? They would have kept the title on Jericho until they knew he was alright, and then sent it off at whichever PPV Cena returned at. Had it been Armageddon or the Rumble or whatever. We'd have seen the same match.
You put so much faith on the creative team; as if they knew what they were doing and brainstorming ahead of times. With an egomaniac unpredictable as Vince McMahon at the helm, plans change all the time and nothing is solid. I still think the reason a Cena title reign was decided was because his recovery just happened to coincide with Unforgiven being in his hometown. How could you not give him the title after hyping his early return for a month? So in my opinion, Jericho was given a title reign this year not just to keep it warm for Cena; as I said, they had no idea when Cena was returning until maybe a few weeks ago. Jericho happened to be the reigning champion at a bad time. If anybody else had the title, they would have had to drop it to Cena as well. WWE creative had no idea he was returning early, so they went with it and the ratings certainly didn’t help Jericho. I’ve never claimed Jericho to be the biggest draw in the WWE; far from it, he has the charisma but he doesn’t have the character or the youth anymore. I still think WWE dropped the ball with him in 2000. Jericho was ridiculously over that year, he could have made a great WWE Champion but again, unfortunately for him so was The Rock, and a newcomer rookie by the name of Kurt Angle.
Yes, Cena gets all the hate for winning the title in his first match, while Edge gets off the hook. That is mainly what I was firstly referring to.
As the heel, it was Edge’s role to steal the title and snake his way back to the top. I went over this in story telling craft. Edge will drop the title to the next, hottest baby face contender.
You don't understand it do you, John Cena is more than a measly cash cow. He is the face of the WWE. And for the record, I've been a Cena fan since 2003 so I am certainly not jumping on any bandwagon. What has he got going for him?? Are you serious dude? The guy is the complete package. Which is why he has become a success. His character is not bland. Did you even watch Raw this week? He seems less "nice" and more determined to kick ass more than ever, and the fans bought it.
Cena is the total package and you are right; he’s the face of the WWE, but at least in my opinion, his character IS bland. I’m not twelve, so the promos he cuts don’t appeal to me. I’ve always been into the anti-hero/villainous type characters, which is why I enjoy Jericho and Orton but detest Cena’s character. Not the man, I’ve already said I respect the man, but he’s a product of a creative team that is trying to adhere to a younger audience. I much preferred him as a baby face on SmackDown he was cutting edgy promos, and embarrassed his adversaries with clever free styling; whether it was scripted or not was beyond the point, he delivered it with swagger. Now all he does is kiss the fan’s asses for ten minutes than brawl with the generic heel. Nobody but kids like ass kissers and it’s a matter of maturity. I don’t go to shows to listen to the baby face tell me he loves me and is going to war for me. I go to shows to watch the baby face establish a want, need and obstacle that clashes with the heel’s ideals and clash with him for a showdown between good and evil. Again, basic story telling craft.
Cena is not predictable. How the hell is Cena predictable! Give me examples to back up your points at least. I wasn't expecting him to win the title in his return match, therefore making him unpredictable. So you decide to hate Cena based on the way he's booked? Does Cena book for himself, I think not. Oh, and Jericho's return wasn't as successful as Cena's as his character was "different". Wouldn't that make people more interested in his new character and style? So now "all" big returns draw? That's funny, I can't remember the last big return that drew as good as this.
What do you want me to do? Link you to different Cena promos on youtube? Everyone but you expected Cena to win the title in his HOMETOWN on his BIG RETURN night. People were hoping against it but most of us who know how the WWE creative team operates knew it was going to happen. You said it yourself; Cena is the face of the WWE and he makes the most money. How could you not have known he was going to win the title? And Cena being more ‘aggressive’ is a piss poor explanation to try and imply he’s different now than four months ago. He always had an aggressive streak; just watch his match with JBL at Judgment Day 2005, or his match with HHH at Wrestlemania 22. If he didn’t have “aggression”, how could he have retained the belt against top tier contenders? This is just WWE putting a bow on Cena and trying to pass off slight difference as a complete revamp but no matter how much you try to dress up a lump of shit, it’s still a lump of shit. Even if it burns a little more on the way out if you have too much jalapenos.
And how exactly do you know Cena is the most booed face champion in WWE history? Are you over 50 years old? So you're telling me that the ratings aren't up to 6.0 because Cena isn't a big enough draw. You might as well blame Cena for the stock market crash too. It's obviously because those older fans have grown up and have stopped watching a product that isn't as entertaining as what it was before, not because of John Cena.
I don’t have to be middle-aged to pick up DVD’s or even subscribe to WWE 24/7. Show me one video during any of Hulk Hogan’s baby face runs (not WCW) when the masses were chanting “FUCK YOU HOGAN, YOU CAN’T WRESTLE.” You won’t find it. WCW doesn’t count because by then Hogan was way past his prime and if the fans turned on him, it was because he was old. Cena is still in his prime, still was prior to injury and the fans had already turned on him. I know fans have turned on The Rock even as recent as after 2000 when he was still on his prime and at the top of his game but that was due to the sting of knowing he was leaving for Hollywood and saw it as him turning his back on the fans and the WWE. Fans can be fickle but I think they got over it and even welcomed him back with open arms when he returned for Wrestlemania 20. I’ve NEVER heard masses chant such demeaning things at a baby face champion the way crowds have for Cena, though.
How am I supposed to take you seriously with this comment? I 'suppose' Chris Jericho's promos are completely different from each other. I think not. Cena's promos differ all the time. Which is more than what I can say for Jericho, HBK and Triple H. And why wouldn't he appreciate the fans and suck up to them, he's a babyface, his role is to get cheered and that's what he gets paid for! That's like saying Triple H's promos are the same all the time, in which they are. He tells a few jokes, before getting serious about his opponent. You can't expect a totally different promo from the same superstar every time he's on the mic.
True, you’re right. Most wrestlers always cut similar promos, so I can’t say that’s one thing Cena has going against him. After all, even the best wrestlers (Hogan, Flair, Triple H, Rock, etc) have cut the same promos for over ten years and they’re still over. The same goes for everyone else.
I don't recall Cena beating the heck out of those superstars at the very start of those feuds. I don't recall Cena getting as fired up as he was on Raw. He wasn't as aggressive as what he was this past week. And the whole superman Cena thing really needs to go because I know you're implying it. How the fuck does Edge, Jericho and Batista get away from being called "superman"? Edge has won 6 world titles in two years, Jericho won 2 titles in a matter of a few months, and Batista is constantly in the title picture. Yet, a guy who was injured for half a year gets the blame. How in the world does this make sense?
So when he kicks somebody’s ass determines whether or not he is aggressive? That’s an interesting way to look at it. And Cena has always been fired up. It’s how he gets the crowd riled up, he always had that ability. Edge and Jericho are anything but Superman; they snake their way to the top and steal titles. Batista is another character I hate by the way.
That's why I loved the promo on Raw, because for once the heel didn't get the upper hand. Do you remember last year when HBK superkicked Randy Orton 7 or 8 weeks in a row during their feud? I bet you didn't have a problem with that, because "he's Shawn Michaels".
I’ve had a problem with Shawn Michaels’ character for years as well, only because he’s forty years old, a self-proclaimed born again Christian and his theme song is still “I’m just a sexy boy.”
How am I supposed to take you seriously with this comment? I 'suppose' Chris Jericho's promos are completely different from each other. I think not. Cena's promos differ all the time. Which is more than what I can say for Jericho, HBK and Triple H. And why wouldn't he appreciate the fans and suck up to them, he's a babyface, his role is to get cheered and that's what he gets paid for! That's like saying Triple H's promos are the same all the time, in which they are. He tells a few jokes, before getting serious about his opponent. You can't expect a totally different promo from the same superstar every time he's on the mic. 