The end of the Golden era

Discussion in 'The Wrestling Archives' started by GhettoV1, Jun 16, 2017.

  1. THTRobtaylor

    THTRobtaylor Once & Future Wrestlezone Columnist

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    That oil change had a lot of talent capable of carrying titles, who were saddled with physical object gimmcks that then made it impossible to logically give them a title.

    Give one to Jake (albiet debuted earlier) and he has to show a title off, not the Snake or his intro becomes so long it's unmanageable...

    Bossman had to tote his billy club and cuffs, and the idea of a cop wearing a title belt wouldn't have looked right... by Ray Traylor was EASILY World title material when he was signed and certainly would have been after his cuffing and attacking Dusty... but by the time Hogan was moving aside he was saddled with being a face now he was toting that club and NOT hitting people with it or cuffing them.... the character didn't work to a level the talent deserved.

    Jacques Rougeau could have been a legit IC champ, but as he was saddled with The Mountie...the reign lasted as long as Bret's alleged "flu" - He deserved better and could even make "All American Boys" work,

    Brutus was a perennial IC challenger, but never got the belt because again, toting that AND his shears would have taken the edge off the character... there'd have been more "struttin'" with the belt and less "cuttin'".

    For a LONG time they even sent Undertaker down that route, first with the bodybags that got taken out cos of the war... then caskets and the urn. Like with DiBiase, the only way the character got away with it was having Paul Bearer/Virgil/Sherri - without then he'd have suffered the same fate as the others... stuck with a useless physical object. In truth it was only in 96 they went the other direction with him and he became the Taker we know today... till then he was lucky to even get that short reign he got.

    Need more proof? Look at guys like Charles Wright... As Papa Shango he had no chance, stuck with a voodoo gimmick reliant on costume... once they took that away and rebranded him, he improved and found The Godfather gimick - and could then work as IC champ...
     
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  2. Makaveli31

    Makaveli31 Championship Contender

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    Well all the interviews I've heard from people who were there at the time say the SummerSlam '90 payoff was what set Rude off. Remember, Warrior (as World Champ) was getting something like half a million per PPV while Rude barely got over $100K for Slam '90 despite carrying Warrior the entire match. I think the story is on "Something to Wrestle With" Bruce Pritchard's podcast. I'll post a link if i can find it.

    As far as Hogan, Rude knew Hogan didn't want to work with him. Rude was there since '87 and I think they might have had ONE match in THREE YEARS at a house show somewhere but no way was Hogan going to work a program with Rude. Rude was in too good a shape for Hogan. So Rude knew he would never get Hogan in the ring, why would he pick 1990 to "suddenly" realize that and leave? That makes no sense.

    I don't understand what you are trying to say here. On one hand you said Rude made the U.S. title even bigger than the World title

    And now you're saying he needed some obscure two month reign to somehow validate him so he could elevate younger talent? That makes no sense. The FACT is Rude didn't need the belt. He was "Ravishing" Rick Rude. His character overshadowed the belt. No one would remember some obscure two month reign. Do you remember Sheik's in '84 or Slaughter's in '91? No you don't. Even Flair's "reign" after defeating Savage is lost on me. Nope. Rick Rude would've done just fine without winning the World title. You just mentioned him "doing wonders" for Sting. Guess what? He did that without being a World Champion.

    No. You are WAY off here. That's what made the "Million Dollar Man" gimmick WORK. The fact he could not cheat his way to the World title no matter how much money he had. The fact that he could not back up his boastful comments or "his mouth writing checks that his physical skills could not cash" is what made the character work. Fans LOVED seeing him get beat. He tried everything to win the title and he failed. Each and every time. That's a good thing because it shows money can't buy everything and you have to EARN it. So he does what every spoiled millionaire does when he does not get what he wants. He creates his own belt. GENIUS! It gave the WWE a FOURTH belt and it looked immaculate! As a kid, I didn't want a replica World title belt I wanted THE Million Dollar belt so it was a merchandising gold mine. But I digress. DiBiase did not need the belt either. The fact that he failed each and every time is what made his character memorable. If he would've won it for a short period of time he would be just another footnote alongside Stan Stasiak, the Iron Sheik, and Sgt. Slaughter.

    I'll agree Warlord was "wasted' here. The guy was a massive 300 plus pounds of pure muscle. He was not fat like Earthquake or have a gut like Bravo. The guy was built better than either Hogan or Warrior. So just on that alone it made him interesting. Barb was the same way to a lesser extent. Again. Spectacularly built. In an interesting sidenote in the Powers of Pain shoot interview they actually said the plan was to have them split up and one was going to work with Hogan and the other with Warrior. Obviously that did not happen as Pat Patterson used his influence to work Dino Bravo and Earthquake into that spot
     
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  3. HeenanGorilla

    HeenanGorilla Championship Contender

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    You don't remember these short World Title reigns...but Warlord and Barbarian are memorable to you? This is you in a nutshell.

    And you wanting a Million Dollar Belt replica doesn't make it a merchandising "gold mine". I wanted a Don Muraco t-shirt that I still think looks cool to this day, but I doubt it was anywhere near the top seller list.

    Also, no one strived to win that belt. Roberts wanted to take it from DiBiase because it meant so much to the latter. The "prestige" of the belt wasn't a goal of his. Don't even say Virgil. This belt was a storyline piece and nothing more. Yes, it looked cool. (Why someone would want a plastic replica of it baffles me, but we all have different tastes) But this belt was never a goal for anyone else, other than wanting to hurt DiBiase by taking what meant the most to him.

    Still laughing at those World champs being footnotes and the Powers of Pain being memorable...man, you are pure entertainment.
     
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  4. Makaveli31

    Makaveli31 Championship Contender

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    The idiot makes an appearance again.....

    We're talking two different things child. Characters vs WORLD title reigns. His argument was Rick Rude, a memorable character NEEDED a run with the title, to validate him so he could then elevate younger talent. MY argument he didn't need as such as his CHARACTER was enough to do the trick. I pointed out that "transitional runs" (title wins used to transition to babyface champions for your tiny mind) like Iron Sheik's in 1984 or Sgt. Slaughter's in 1991 would not enhance Rick Rude' ability to get over younger talent. It had nothing to to do with memorable CHARACTER'S like Warlord or Barbarian. Two TOTALLY different arguments.

    Well considering they continued to sell it for YEARS in the catalogs and live events and the Million Dollar Man was one of the most popular in terms of merchandise I would have to disagree with you. But obviously you are too stupid to realize that.

    Please shut the fuck up with your stupidity. Of course it was storyline piece you fucking mark. Every fucking belt is a "storyline piece". Every "title" is wrapped around a STORYLINE. No one really wins any title LOL. It just added to DiBiase's character. He couldn't win the title so he just created his own. It was a part of a storyline.

    And by the way, I guess you missed all those kids with "plastic replica belts" in the crowds during the late' 80's/early '90's. Moron.

    Still laughing at your idiocy of confusing two different arguments. You are truly, truly stupid.
     
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  5. HeenanGorilla

    HeenanGorilla Championship Contender

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    Yes, I absolutely did miss those non-existent kids with Million Dollar Belt replicas. If they continued to offer it for YEARS, it was because they had a ton of stock due to no one buying them.

    You can't see the difference between belts that superstars strive for and this belt that no one wanted? There is a mark here, that's for sure.
     
    #30
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  6. Makaveli31

    Makaveli31 Championship Contender

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    "Strive for' LOL. You are such an idiot. It's called a storyline. There are different levels. Are you telling me someone would turn down working with Ted DiBiase at the height of his popularity in 1990 just because it was for the "Million Dollar Belt"? You are truly an idiot of epic proportions. That was one of the prime spots on the card. Let's ask Jake Roberts if he would've turned that down. Or Dusty Rhodes. Sure "no one wanted" a prime position on a WrestleMania or SummerSlam card because it was for "Million Dollar Belt" you just proved yourself to be the mark. And a stupid one at that. They still got paid in real dollars no matter what belt was used fool. Go sit down and play with your toys.
     
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  7. Makaveli31

    Makaveli31 Championship Contender

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    Because that's a good business decision. Right, idiot? It takes money to continue to sell product moron. If you continue to not sell product that means you continue to LOSE money. Funny. I didn't see them on a "discount shelf" at the events. I guess they must've done the same for the Hogan t-shirts, the Hitman shades and the LOD shoulder pads because they were all in the same area. Nothing must have sold. Go on fucking Ebay and find out how much one is worth now. I guess you failed economics 101 moron.
     
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  8. HeenanGorilla

    HeenanGorilla Championship Contender

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    I would like to point out to the mods that this guys is hurling insults and curses. I realize it is how the unintelligent (try to) get their point across, but this should be addressed.

    To the guy instantly flipping out over a simple wrestling discussion, I would love to argue with you, but your logic is still unquestionably absent. I was speaking to the characters not wanting the belt for any reason other than to hurt DiBiase. You counter this with PPV prime position and asking if Roberts or Rhodes would want the money that goes along with the angle?? You are the one mixing real life decisions, like performers earning money, with fantasy world points, like who is regarded as an unsanctioned champion.

    Do everyone a favor and stop with the "idiot" and "moron" sentences. They are a waste. Anyone who reads your posts knows who that applies to. Just respond with poor logic and cluelessness so I can be entertained throughout the work day.

    Ecomonics 101...haha if you sniffed anything but a community college for a semester or two, I will eat my hat.
     
    #33
  9. Makaveli31

    Makaveli31 Championship Contender

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    May I point out you started with the condescending tone right out of the box. Sorry you can "dish it out" but you can't "take it." I am all for a wrestling debate but you come at me with some piss poor tone I'm going to come at you harder. Sorry I made you cry to the mod. Better go to your safe space kid.

    I only deal in real life facts. Maybe you live in a "fantasy" world but I don't.

    If it fits......

    I will just refer back to my post above about your clueless post on the Million Dollar Belts and how "they didn't sell".
     
    #34
  10. HeenanGorilla

    HeenanGorilla Championship Contender

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    Come at me harder? Hahahaha! Yikes that puts me in my place. Also, thanks for making four separate points, yet saying nothing. You refer me to your previous post...of which I had already responded. If you need a timeout to regroup, take it. But don't go Groundhog Day on us. "Real facts" from the guy who continuously references shoot interviews. Those are all fact and not at all sour grapes.

    Mods, I do think his cursing and insults should be addressed, but please do not punish him. He needs this forum. I can't imagine he has anything else.
     
    #35
  11. Makaveli31

    Makaveli31 Championship Contender

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    Keep living in your "fantasy world". Where you confuse two separate arguments, make asinine comments, and reference no facts at all. At least there is some historical reference in "shoot interviews" (which I rarely reference) from people who were there as opposed to you who has nothing but opinion and are constantly wrong.

    Go to your "safe space."
     
    #36
  12. LBGetBack

    LBGetBack Championship Contender

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    The above feud has way more juice than most of the WWE feuds do right now. I am entertained.
     
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  13. HeenanGorilla

    HeenanGorilla Championship Contender

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    Ha! I don't know about that, but it certainly gives new meaning to the term "Handicap Match".

    But, to get back on topic, I think the end of the Golden Era was when Warlord and Barbarian left WWF. After that, nothing else was memorable. In fact, if not for wanting to purchase and show off my belt replicas, I wouldn't have gone to another live show. Sure, there was Bret and HBK and Taker and HHH...but Warlord and Barbarian had feuds that "culminated in two PPV matches". That is what makes them memorable. Without them, the Golden Era just wasn't the same.
     
    #38
  14. Makaveli31

    Makaveli31 Championship Contender

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    Yes you are certainly handicapped. I didn't want to say it but I'm glad you finally realized that.

    Yes. I guess they didn't "strive" for the World title. Cue the Rocky music. Because this all real life and the only title that matters is the World title. I guess if you didn't "strive for" and win the World title you weren't considered memorable. I'm sorry. I guess you can go back to only knowing Bret. HBK, and 'Taker.
     
    #39
  15. HeenanGorilla

    HeenanGorilla Championship Contender

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    So, you don't think that the characters strive for titles? I've never seen anyone with a blurrier line between fiction and non-fiction. The characters do strive for titles, because that is what they are there for. You really need to see the difference between performers and the characters they play. You keep referencing that post of mine, but each time you do, you just prove how clueless you are. And if you don't see that, that is also proving how clueless you are. The characters do strive for titles, although the performers--the ones who know it is scripted--may not. Holy hell...

    Also, I referred to the Million Dollar Belt as insignificant in this way. You are the one who is only bringing up the World title. I swear in half of your posts, I think you confuse me with you. Look in the mirror...see that guy? Ask him what he thinks. I guarantee he disagrees with half of what you say.
     
    #40
  16. THTRobtaylor

    THTRobtaylor Once & Future Wrestlezone Columnist

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    It's real to him dammit!

    The Million Dollar Belt was a poor attempt at appeasement of DiBiase, mixed with a misguided attempt to create a new title in the WWF for guys who didn't "fit" the other title pictures.

    DiBiase feuded with guys like Jake, Dusty and Virgil over that title, guys who weren't getting near the WWF or IC titles... only the belt itself was put into a category of value rather than prestige... Anyone who took on DiBiase was inherently trying to win a belt "worth" a million dollars (in truth I think it was nearer to 50 grand) with the implication being if they won the belt, they were a millionaire.

    The roster would have been better served by a 3rd title even then that was a sanctioned one... a TV title or US title would have helped so many more talents at that time - look what the WCW one did for guys like Steamboat, Anderson, Zybysko and the younger talents like Regal, Austin and Scott Steiner... if you were older, it showed you were still a force... if you were younger, it was a stepping stone to great things.

    Irony is WWE tried the same tactic with Davey Boy and the European title - promised him a World run, didn't deliver and tried to appease with their own title, only to take it from them quickly. Only difference is the European actually had prestige and enhanced Davey for the time he had it and many others after... The Million Dollar killed DiBiase as a legit character, as much as Makavelli doesn't want to agree... he had to go into Money Inc. with the tag titles to get his cred back...

    Had they actually said "Whoever wins this belt wins a million... but if you lose you have to pay DiBiase a Million... or work as his "slave" to pay off your debt like Virgil" the angle could have worked... they tried it later with Nikolai, but it was too little too late.
     
    #41
  17. HeenanGorilla

    HeenanGorilla Championship Contender

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    I like the work it off angle. Could have led to some good moments. But yeah, what you said is right. If they really wanted to invent a new title that would have had credibility, they should have put it on Barbarian.
     
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  18. Makaveli31

    Makaveli31 Championship Contender

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    No they don't "strive" for titles unless they are a "mark." Scott Hall said "beat me every night, but you have pay me." They strive to get their character over with the fans and as a result move up on the card and maybe they are handed the title. They don't "win it on their own." It does not matter which title. Any spot on a supercard means a substantial payday and a chance to get over with the fans. That's what they are there for. I would rather make $500,000 a year as a non-title guy vs $400,000 as the World Champion. It's simple as that.

    I don't delve into the world of "fiction." You might believe every "character" strives for the title in the make believe fantasy world of pro wrestling but the REALITY is there can only be one and for guys like Ted DiBiase, Rick Rude, Jake Roberts they were not getting the ball. They were not supplanting Hogan, Warrior, or Savage. So Vince had to create angles, storylines, and different ways to get these guys over and "The Million Dollar Championship was one way. And it worked. They had a memorable feud over the "insignificant" championship in the lead up to WrestleMania 6. There is nothing "insignificant" about that.

    So you just keep living in your fantasy world of "characters" striving for titles on which they are handed and I'll keep dealing with the reality of what was going on back then and keep trying to educate you.
     
    #43
  19. Makaveli31

    Makaveli31 Championship Contender

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    Poor attempt? According to whom? Hmmm let's see....it got him a spot on the WrestleMania 6 card.....He didn't really feud with Dusty over the belt, it was more Sapphire but the feud with Dusty was extended to the Royal Rumble....and the feud with Virgil got him paid at WrestleMania 7 and SummerSlam '91. Pretty good if you ask me but I guess we're still living in "fantasy land" where we want Ted DiBiase to be holding the World title and anything else be damned.

    The U.S. title was the equivalent of the I-C title. It was for the smaller "worker"-type wrestlers i.e. Hennig, Bret, Shawn, or to establish guys like Razor or Diesel having both the I-C and US titles would be worthless.

    Really? They promised Davey Boy Smith a run with the World title and instead gave him the European title? Did you read this in WWF magazine also? Let's see. I'm betting he would've got the title over Bret? No? Diesel, maybe? Hmmm no I don't think so. Oh! I know! He would have gotten it over Shawn!!! Again, a bunch of non-sense coming out of your mouth the same non-sense like Rude supposedly getting the title over Hogan.

    His cred back?!? LOL!! This a good one. DiBiase was much more credible as a singles wrestler. The guy was one the top heels in the company. He drew money with Virgil for God's sake. If you can't see that I can't help you. If you know the backstory DiBiase was having marital problems and was headed to divorce. He requested less days on the road to be with his wife hence the tag team situation with IRS who was much more buttoned down and less of a party guy. He could keep DiBiase on a straight path. It had nothing to do with credibility. That was from DiBiase's own book.

    LOL pay DiBiase a million dollars? Right, that's really realistic. I'm sure everybody had a million dollars just sitting in the bank account and they already did the "slave" angle with Hercules.
     
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  20. Makaveli31

    Makaveli31 Championship Contender

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    Right!! Because he can "STRIVE" for the title and maybe JUST maybe if he put extra time in the gym he could actually WIN the WORLD title!! LOL
     
    #45
  21. HeenanGorilla

    HeenanGorilla Championship Contender

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    I love--LOVE--when you argue your own point with...yourself. Who said "win it on their own"? And they don't strive for the title, but try to get over with the fans to make more money, by being given the title. Great point!! ...????

    There can only be one? I guess you mean one at a time, which is so obvious, I am not sure why you would mention that. Virgil also had a memorable match with Nailz, right? Because, according to whatever is misfiring in your head, anything that we remember is memorable. That is what most people mean when they say memorable, right? ANYTHING that they remember.

    Thanks for the Scott Hall quote. It has everything to do with the conversation we're having and really bolstered the debate.
     
    #46
  22. HeenanGorilla

    HeenanGorilla Championship Contender

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    Another great job not missing the point!

    You are really hung up on the word "strive". You are clearly jobless. So is "strive" one of the buzzwords people threw at you, along with "no passion" and "waste"? Is this why it set you off?

    Nobody reading this thread thinks I am under the impression that the outcomes aren't predetermined. That is understood by all, so you continually going back to it is truly--truly--sad. But to try to convince us--or yourself, pathetically--that these guys don't want all that comes with the top spot is incredibly...well, naïve is an understatement...it's dumb, man. I know you need to get the last word in and think you win every argument, but take a break and regroup. Maybe take 10 minutes, watch every memorable Warlord and Barbarian match, then use the other 8 minutes to gather your thoughts. And by gather, I mean come up with a few.

    Again, I know your ego (how can you have one with nothing going for you in life?) will make you fire back at me. But don't spend too much time there, as it is for you only. Try, instead, to make a good wrestling-related point.

    Gee, I hate arguing with you because, unlike the memorable Barbarian and Warlord feuds, this is going nowhere.
     
    #47
  23. Makaveli31

    Makaveli31 Championship Contender

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    You said it not me. You said

    First of all, no one wins a belt. They are given the belt by Vince McMahon. Again, you said it not me. And missing the point? Just like you keep bring up Warlord and Barbarian and weaving them into an argument about the impact of "transitional title reigns" by the Iron Sheik and Sgt. Slaughter? Like that missing the point?

    I think that's debatable at this point. I mean you did say no one "strove" to "win" the Million Dollar belt. That's pretty markish if you ask me.

    Of course they want it but they all can't have it. There is only one top spot so others have to adjust. You missed that point completely. But again, you don't seem the have a grasp on reality and you think people actually "win" belts.

    Coming from someone who posts just as much as I do? You must not have a life either.

    Right they probably should've spent more time in the gym training to "win" that top spot.

    Funny, I seem the debate THTRobTaylor just fine. He makes good, solid points and we have a spirited back and forth unlike you who continues to spew non-sense and show a lack of any intelligence whatsoever.
     
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  24. HeenanGorilla

    HeenanGorilla Championship Contender

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    This sums you up perfectly. This is absolutely ridiculous. So I am in the minority, who thinks people win belts? I mean, I know you're not smart, but this goes beyond. Come on, man. So Undetaker's WrestleMania record is 0 wins, 0 losses and twenty something Vince McMahon decisions? Hahaha. Yeah, your logic is right where it should be. Wow man...
     
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  25. Wildcat66

    Wildcat66 DELETE!

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    Alright, I don't really have an opinion on the Million Dollar Belt per-say; but this I think should be addressed.

    No one wins a belt...are you sure about that? Last I checked, if someone was booked in a title match and they were booked to win the belt, then for all intensive purposes; you win said belt. That's not striving for anything, that's wrestling 101. It's one of the easiest tricks in the book.
     
    #50

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