Taking The Knee

Discussion in 'The WrestleZone Symposium' started by hatehabsforever, Sep 24, 2017.

  1. hatehabsforever

    hatehabsforever Moderator
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    Today, being a Sunday afternoon with the NFL in full swing, it seemed like an appropriate day for this discussion.

    As I'm sure most of you know, there has been a tendency in recent times for professional athletes to refuse to stand during the standard playing/singing of the national anthem at sporting events. Colin Kaepernick has been one of the "higher profile" guys in this matter, but it seems to be an increasing trend in pro sports. Rather than standing during the anthem, some of the players (also known as "sons of bitches" by some guys lol) have chosen to go down on one knee in protest. I was just wondering how guys felt about this sudden departure from the norm.

    Personally I'm Canadian, so the American national anthem carries no particular significance for me. But if I am on vacation in the USA and I'm at a sporting event or a concert or whatever, I stand up and I shut up for a couple of minutes out of respect for those who honor the anthem for whatever reason. Personally I think is an awful thing for these athletes to do, and I totally oppose it . A total lack of respect for those who have fought in various wars over the years (past and present) to ensure the liberties that we all take for granted. Those who have died or sustained life altering injuries or illnesses, as well as their loved ones, it is a total lack of respect for these people. While I don't think those "sons of bitches" should be fired, I definitely think the various leagues should take a stand and deal with this accordingly.

    I get the whole First Amendment thing. And sure, people have the constitutional right to protest and exhibit free speech. But there is a time and a place for it. Whether you like Donald Trump, or whether you hate him. Whether you agree or disagree with whatever side of the coin you are protesting over, there's a time and a place for it. Go ahead and protest for the other 6.5 days of the week, and the entire off season if you want to. That's your constitutional right. But out or respect for those who laid the groundwork, and continue to do so, so that these brats can earn multi millions of dollars a year playing a game, during the national anthem just stand there and shut the hell up. And at least let there be one day a week, and one venue, which does not end up getting overly politicized.

    Rant over.
     
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  2. Hyorinmaru

    Hyorinmaru Sit Upon The Frozen Heavens
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    Trump is telling team owners/GMs to suspend/fire players who don't stand for the national anthem. Fuck that noise.

    I just read about this while I was having a cup of coffee this morning and my first thought wasn't anything bad about the players (like it was during the situation) was how I can't believe Trump is shoving his 2 cents where he's really got no place putting it.

    I see this as yet another way people are protesting the stupid shit Trump spews from his cake hole and I say good for them. I hope every team does this for a while and Trump shuts the fuck up and does his job.
     
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  3. Spidercanrana

    Spidercanrana Should've Reinstated The Fox
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    Paid patriotism, post 2011. NFL players were not required to stand idly by as the National Anthem played until fairly recently. So people getting upset over this now when most of the league's history they were either in the locker room or just sitting around is silly. But the best way to get people distracted from more pressing matters is to appeal to their emotions - in this case the fight over misplaced patriotism and "respect".

    Let's be honest, most Americans at home are either sitting around, in the kitchen, or talking with one another when the National Anthem is playing anyways. We are all guilty of this. Every sportsbar, living room, lobby area, etc I've ever been in that had a football game on had people sitting around without their hand on their heart when the Anthem played. The only reason there's a fuss is because media is shining a light on it, which is the entire point to why people are taking a knee. If they did it any other time, it wouldn't get the exposure it's getting now.

    Members of my family died for the right for us to sit or stand. It's a choice. They can exercise said right, even if it feels insulting to others. It separates us from the countries that have to do as they're told or else get killed.
     
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  4. Барбоса

    Барбоса doesn't know REAL wrestling...

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    I have no problem with them taking a knee during the national anthem because it is a respectful way of protesting, more so than the Black Power salute of Tommy Smith and John Carlos in 1968.

    We had an Irish footballer over here who turned his back on the British flag during that national anthem - that to me was outright disrespect not only in the way he did it but because he was not really doing it in response to anything specific other than his dislike of the British as an Irish Republican.

    Should sport be politicised? Ideally, no. But it is an effective tool in bringing injustice to the forefront and those millionaire sportsmen have as much right to protest as the rest of us. We would likely complain more about them doing nothing with their celebrity.

    And saying that by taking a knee, those men are disrespecting those who have fought and died for their country is utter garbage. "I'm not a patriot because I don't stand and put my hand on my heart when a specific song plays and a specific piece of fabric is flown"? Nonsense.

    I would say though that the number of players doing it today is much more about the NFL fraternity sticking together in the face of the president calling men exercising their rights "sons of bitches" than it really is about Kaepernick's reasons. And this kind of distraction is probably what Trump wants to take eyes away from the ACA vote, either to sneak it through to hide his further embarassment over impending failure to repeal it.
     
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  5. klunderbunker

    klunderbunker Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House

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    The idea of the flag is to represent America, which is the land of the free. One such freedom is the freedom of speech, which includes a freedom to protest something if you so desire.

    The people who are freaking out over this are probably the same people who feel the need to explain to you how to be a real patriot, which was apparently written on the tablet that Moses forgot at the top of the mountain. The players who are protesting are doing so because they have an issue with something and want it to be discussed and addressed. That's their right as a free American and there's nothing wrong or illegal about what they're doing. Besides, if they want to get attention to a cause, what is going to get more eyes on them: holding a sign on the streets of San Francisco or when a camera is on them with millions of people watching?
     
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  6. Lowdown

    Lowdown Ooh baby I like it roooaaaaw!

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    I've been stewing about this all day. I'm all for the players taking a knee, not being on the field, etc. Trump continues to add fuel to the fire with his idiotic rhetoric, which had nothing to do with him in the first place. Kudos to the players in both the NFL and NBA for showing solidarity.
     
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  7. TJ Matics

    TJ Matics It was never the same.

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    Not only is it their right, but the very idea that a silent and peaceful protest is disrespectful to the flag/anthem/veterans is lost on me. Since when the hell is taking a knee disrespectful? Isn't the action itself rooted in reverence and humility?? I commend Kaepernick for starting this movement, but his whole point has been completely misconstrued to an easier talking point.

    I keep hearing people referencing respect the veterans, then when you ask the actual veterans many completely respect the players decision. Not to say that they all do, of course. But 9/10 I find that the vets who have been made to feel uncomfortable by this act are not fully clued in on what Kaep's message is, or they're chauvinistic. Contrary to popular belief, being a vet doesn't automatically make you a saint. Nonetheless, there is a gray area where vets are both clued in and offended, and I do regret that. However, taking a knee to ask that the anthem be true for everyone is commendable. In my personal opinion.

    I've also found that bringing up athlete salaries has become another point to hide behind. It's along the some branch of "Kaep can't speak up on oppression because he's rich", as if that makes him incapable of seeing those less fortunate.

    Any doubts that I had about this not being about respect were answered today. Players kneeled, and some members of the crowd boo'd: during the anthem they're demanding the players respect.
     
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  8. tdmoon

    tdmoon Pre-Show Stalwart

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    Trump was fine with people carrying nazi flags but pro athletes taking a knee is where he draws the line? Weird.

    There aren't a whole lot of things that get me worked up--some people I've never met not standing for a national anthem sure as hell isn't one of them. Whether I agree with the cause or not, I have a hard time getting upset about any sort of non-violent protest.
     
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  9. George Steele's Barber

    George Steele's Barber Advertise Here $9.95/month

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    It's insulting to anyone in a wheel chair or confined to their beds. Possibly to anyone who does not have a right hand.

    Otherwise, the military is pretty tough, I think they will be ok.
     
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  10. BestSportsEntertainer

    BestSportsEntertainer I Don't Need No User Title

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    Does it really matter? A lot of people claim it's disrespectful to kneel or sit during the national anthem, but I disagree. Some people pretend America is perfect, and everyone needs to support it no matter what. That's ridiculous. America has very real problems right now, and people need to do something about it.

    I'm not even sure if kneeling is really doing anything, but it's their constitutional right to do so. The players shouldn't be fired and they're certainly not what Trump called them. It was a stupid thing to say (again...) and he's losing supporters. He needs to step it up.
     
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  11. HBK-aholic

    HBK-aholic Shawn Michaels ❤

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    It says a lot about the US that more people are 'offended' that people are kneeling during a fucking song, than the systematic racism and murder of black citizens by law enforcement.

    I mean, it doesn't surprise me. Your own damn president thinks Nazi's are 'good people' but an NFL athlete taking a knee is a 'son of a bitch'. But please, continue telling me how racism doesn't exist.

    And let's not even get started on y'all chirping on about your 'Land of the Free' while wanting to dictate what, when, where and how someone can act.
     
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  12. Kodo Sawaki

    Kodo Sawaki Championship Contender

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    If they really want to protest they should just contact Supergirl from TV show. She can now get sign that says "Trump, you can kneel to my iron pussy" or something like that.

    No, really, there is a time and place for protest. A sports event is not one. Not because of respect thing, but because politics of any kind has no place at sports event at all. In ancient times wars were stopped in order to participate in Olympics. Even now it is prohibited to make any political statement during events. Because sports event is for sport, not for players personal issues that have nothing to do with their job.
     
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  13. Rainbow Yaz

    Rainbow Yaz Sing about me, I'm dying of thirst
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    If you love something, you want the best for it and to want to best for something you have to be able to criticize and want to correct the faults of whatever you love. I love this country, and you bet your ass if I possessed the skill and luck to be a pro athlete I’d be kneeling too because I support what Kaep originally started sitting and then kneeling for.

    And why shouldn’t sports be political? If Kid Rock can start and gain support for a senate run because of his fame, why can a pro athlete use his fame to stand (or kneel) for what they believe?
     
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  14. Барбоса

    Барбоса doesn't know REAL wrestling...

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    Funny you should bring up ancient times... it turns out that despite the Olympics and other games supposedly stopping wars, the ancients made plenty of room for sporting events to be political statements.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/drsara...always-been-a-venue-for-protest/#b41890e180c8
     
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  15. GI Cake

    GI Cake Thank God For Sodamy.

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    Forced patriotism is not true patriotism. Personally I had to completely alter my lifestyle, eating habits, and mindset just for the chance to enlist in the United States Army. I grew up in a family of Marines, and Soldiers that have fought for the country as far back as World War I. I have uncles, and cousins buried under the flag and now I have friends that I have served with that were buried under the same flag they were on their shoulders to Afghanistan. But being a sane, reasonable human being. An athlete electing to take a knee during the National Anthem does not bother me in the slightest.

    The National Anthem, and the United States flag are symbols. Symbols are objects that we give meaning to, not something that creates it's own meaning. The stars and stripes do not make American values, it's the individual that generates that meaning. For me personally, the flag and the National Anthem mean more to me than it did a few years ago when I was a civilian but that is because of the history behind it.

    But that meaning won't ever be understood by the overwhelming majority of Americans, I wouldn't expect them too. In fact, there's nothing that causes more cringe than those that get over-enthusiastic to show their support to a service member or a veteran when they realize they are talking to me, or my old man. So if the flag and the National Anthem makes you think of the military? Good for you.

    But there's also a population that cannot help but feel disenfranchised by the country, and whatever you may feel about it once again the symbols of the flag, and the anthem won't generate feelings of patriotism and military support for people who feel the country hasn't supported their growth as it has for someone like myself. To demand people to feel like you do about the Anthem, and to demand you want them to stand because it makes your freedom boner tingle is one of the least American things one can do.
     
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  16. Kodo Sawaki

    Kodo Sawaki Championship Contender

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    True, it wasnt and it still isnt Utopia. Ancients even used it to establish political dominance over rivals during it.

    Problem in that is that sport should be separated. And that now sports federations (most of it) have rules against it that result in fines and suspensions. So when you want to make political statement you get this

    http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics.php?yyyy=2008&mm=03&dd=21&nav_id=48658

    As you should.

    Now rules as rules are rigid category. Somebody upholds them, somebody doesnt, somebody just get "slap by a hand" etc. Which doesnt really change the fact that politics is separated from sport and that it should be that way.
     
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  17. Jack-Hammer

    Jack-Hammer YOU WILL RESPECT MY AUTHORITAH!!!!
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    As GI Cake said, forced patriotism isn't legitimate patriotism. Just because you stand, kneel, sit or whatever during the playing of the National Anthem isn't an automatic sign of respect or disrespect.

    One thing I always notice about many on the conservative right is that they seem to feel they hold the monopoly on what's patriotic and what isn't even after all this time. Many of them are all about displays of patriotism and free speech so long as it's in line with conservative ideology just like they're supposedly against big government; they hate big government trying to make it harder to purchase deadly weapons but they're all for the government regulating what movies & TV shows people should be able to watch, what books should be available to students in school and what consenting adults do with one another in their private lives.

    Being a patriot means that you sometimes have to ask questions that might be uncomfortable, that you have to question some of the goings on that don't sit right and to address the hypocrisy that goes on sometimes. The United States of America isn't perfect and it never has been, yet generation after generation of Americans have either been successfully brainwashed to believe that our history is absolutely sterling or that they just don't care. The players have said time after time that they're not disrespecting the flag or those who serve, but it's a protest against the continued inequality that's going down right in front of us; after all, when you've got video footage of a white cop shooting a black man unprovoked and said cop walks away clean as a whistle, you shouldn't expect people to say how just the system is. The system isn't perfect, it's downright fucked up in a lot of ways when you get right down to it and pretending it's not doesn't make you a good, patriotic American.

    As far as Trump goes, it's just the latest example of Trump showing just how ignorant he is and trying to distract everyone from the various scandals rocking his administration and the fact that he continues to fail in his policies. I dunno, I just think the guy shows his true colors a bit when he calls football players "sons of bitches" when they don't stand during the National Anthem yet defends the rights of Nazis and white supremacists to protest when they're exactly the sort of people who want to destroy the country. I don't know if the old man is racist, but he definitely comes across to me as someone who doesn't really give a shit about the plights racial minorities face and deal with.
     
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  18. ShinChan

    ShinChan Gone. For. Good.

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    A similar incident happened in my country. It was ordered that whenever National Anthem is played, each and every one has to stand. Like National Anthem is played in the theatres and multipexes before the movie starts playing. And at that particular moment, Everyone HAS to stand to show respect for it. That's where I find a problem. Forced is never good. It creates a problem and now we are "requested" to stand up during the National Anthem after many people opposed this order by the ruling Government.

    Personally, I always stand up. Just a way to show respect. However, if someone doesn't, it doesn't mean that he doesn't respect his country or something. Most importantly, respect should be in the heart.

    So, I don't think that there's anything wrong in protesting like this as long as it remains non-violent. Insulting the protesters won't solve the problem. Like here, anyone who opposes the Government even when the latter is wrong is termed as "Deshdrohi" or "Traitor". That's ridiculous.

    I don't find anything wrong in kneeling.
     
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  19. HBK-aholic

    HBK-aholic Shawn Michaels ❤

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    Is the reason Kaepernick originally decided to not stand political though? I would hope the murder of black citizens and the racism minorities face every day would be something any political party would stand against? I mean, didn't this start with a Democratic president, is now ongoing with a Republican? These players are not protesting a politician. This goes beyond that - literally hundreds of years of history, of a country treating them as 'less than'.

    In fact, the only reason we are hearing that argument now is because your so-called president got involved in matters he is far too stupid and racist to understand. It should NOT be a 'political' statement, to say black people matter, that they deserve the same rights as every other white citizen. The fact it's seen as so? Absolutely disgusting.
     
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  20. Барбоса

    Барбоса doesn't know REAL wrestling...

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    So you don't play the national anthem or show national flags at any sports event.

    Fine with me.
     
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  21. hatehabsforever

    hatehabsforever Moderator
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    Didn't the Dallas Cowboys handle the situation perfectly last night? (Can't believe those words just came out of my mouth lol). Everyone has the right to peaceful protest for whatever it is they are in opposition to, real or perceived. So go ahead and take the knee, in advance of the playing of the anthem. But during the actual playing of the anthem, out of respect for the country, the military, the veterans, and their families and friends, stand up and be quiet and show a little respect for the flag.

    I'm not saying these athletes don't have the right to protest peacefully. God knows they have the means at their disposal to do so. But during the three minutes out of the week when the anthem is being played and the eyes of the world are upon them, show a little respect. During the rest of the week, protest all you want. Appear on television, organize rallies, contribute some of the millions of dollars you earn in the USA toward whatever cause it is you support or oppose. Got no problem with that. But there is a significant chunk of people in attendance or watching on television that feel disrespected by protesting during the anthem. I think their feelings should count for something too.
     
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  22. Jack-Hammer

    Jack-Hammer YOU WILL RESPECT MY AUTHORITAH!!!!
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    I definitely see this side of it too. The problem, well not so much a problem as just choice, is that there are such different views on it. I was talking with my C.O. at work today about this thing, he was a veteran during the first Gulf War, and asked him what he thought about the whole thing and he said he was perfectly fine with them protesting because it's part of what he fought for, that while he didn't perfectly agree with it, being a real soldier to him meant fighting for the rights of everyone no matter if you like or agree with what they stand for or not.

    I do agree though that the whole thing strikes me as more than a bit opportunistic. I might be wrong as I don't know what all these players do in their personal lives, but do any of them participate in protests? Have they helped organize peaceful protests regarding what's happened, such as Charlottesville? Do they actively participate in activities of various civil rights organizations? If the answer to those questions is no, then it makes their protest come off as a little hollow in my eyes, more of an opportunity to generate headlines. I'm not going to call these athletes heroes, as some have, because they're not heroes in my eyes; they're ultimately grown men who're making countless millions of dollars to essentially play a children's game for a living.

    At the end of the day, I think part of what lies behind all this for black players, and blacks in general, is that the America I know as a white man isn't exactly the same they've known in all instances. I mean, I haven't been pulled over by the cops for "being in the wrong neighborhood", I haven't been stopped walking down the street because there was something "suspicious" in how I was walking, I haven't had some vigilante like George Zimmerman chase me down as though I've done something wrong just because of the color of my skin and his thought that he was justified in doing so.
     
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  23. It's Damn Real!

    It's Damn Real! The undisputed, undefeated TNA &

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    Bingo.

    One can disagree with the behavior they've chosen to employ to get their concerns in the marketplace of ideas, but objecting to their right to voice their displeasure because you're personally aggrieved with how they choose to do so (peacefully) is hilariously hypocritical. The same right that gives them the ability to peacefully protest is the same one that gives you the right to criticize them for it.
     
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  24. ABMorales787

    ABMorales787 Lord And Master
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    You know, as a kid, I remember my school playing the national anthems (we play both PR & US). And for the PR anthem, I can never forget mocking the loving crap out of it. Singing about Christopher Columbus coming in, farting and taking a shit. Was it funny, yeah. Was it disrespect? I don't know and I don't care enough for it because it's just a damn song. It has no bearing on what I feel and who I am. Same goes for my flag. I would rep it gladly, but if I can make a butt out of the three blue stripes for shits and giggles, I would.

    Does that make me less patriotic of being Puertorican? No. Fuck no. I am utterly proud of being a guy raised in a place that can't even get internet to this very day and is just a dirt road out of pure lazyness and surrounded by horses and chickens shitting all over it.

    My island is currently a living nightmare. I would give life and limb to drop every debt, drop my car, tell my boss to fuck off and leave to go chop trees in the dark just to be with my loved ones. That's something to truly care about. People. Lives. That are in jeopardy. That are suffering. Same goes for those football players who feel lives are in jeopardy and are doing what they can to get people to notice. And they are doing it in the most passive way they can. There's no marches that result in violence here. There's no casualties. Just people getting butthurt over an object and a song. Could they even tell you the lyrics to the Star Spangled Banner? Because I sure as hell can't. But does that make me some anti-American disrespect-monger?

    But they complain about a knee. Which is in fact, a show of respect in every other context. Or do you not take a knee or two in front of royalty? "Oh noes, peace, get it away~!"
     
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  25. Navi

    Navi With the safety off!!

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    Being Canadian it really doesn't bother me what American football players do, it's up to them. What I see happening now is that it's turning into a referendum against Donald Trump rather than what Colin Kaepernick wanted it to be. He was doing it for a cause, but let's face it, now it's just to piss Trump off because they know he will say something about it.

    One question is, where were these players when Kaepernick first started taking the knee, why didn't they take a knee along side him? Instead he was singled out and really kind of forgotten about till Trump brought it up in Alabama. I think most level headed individuals can get behind a just cause like racial equality, but now it's not about that anymore. It about Donald Trump calling Kaepernick a son of a bitch. Once you deviate from the cause all credibility is lost. Not to mention the fact that news outlets like CNN have blown this all out of proportion. At least that what it looks like to us living outside the US.

    Oh and by the way there is no hard and fast NFL rule regarding a code of conduct when the anthem is played. There is however a game operations manual that every team must follow with regards to the national anthem, it goes as follows:

    The National Anthem must be played prior to every NFL game, and all players must be on the sideline for the National Anthem.
    During the National Anthem, players on the field and bench area should stand at attention, face the flag, hold helmets in their left hand, and refrain from talking. The home team should ensure that the American flag is in good condition. It should be pointed out to players and coaches that we continue to be judged by the public in this area of respect for the flag and our country. Failure to be on the field by the start of the National Anthem may result in discipline, such as fines, suspensions, and/or the forfeiture of draft choice(s) for violations of the above, including first offenses.
     
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