"Super"Orton

Discussion in 'The Wrestling Archives' started by d_henderson1810, Apr 10, 2017.

  1. d_henderson1810

    d_henderson1810 Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    A lot of people here used to complain about how Cena and Reigns don't put over younger talent, and buries those climbing the ranks.

    However, how come Randy Orton never cops heat for constantly not doing jobs to younger talent, or seeing the lights for anyone who isn't a main-eventer.

    Here's the evidence:-

    -feuds with Ted DiBiase jnr and Cody Rhodes. Bullies them the entire time they were in Legacy, and treated them like shit.

    DiBiase and Cody turn on Orton? Did they beat him down and have him leave on stretcher? No?

    No, instead, Orton, by himself, beat down the two of them every single time. He buried both of them, and stopped Cody especially from reaching the next level. Then he beats them at WM26, but it didn't mean as much, since he beat them every single time leading up to that as well.

    - Doesn't put over C.M. Punk at WM27, even though Punk would have benefited from the win, whereas a win over Punk does nothing for Orton, yet Orton wins the match.

    -His feud with Christian, while they had great matches, buried Christian (a veteran, but one who finally got the top prize, only to lose it straight away to Orton's ego. Orton then beat him in three of the next four PPVs, and only lost the belt to him in a match where he loses the belt if disqualified. He never got pinned by Christian during the feud, and kept himself protected.

    -He beats Daniel Bryan at "Summerslam" and "Hell-In-A-Cell", and at WMXXX, Bryan won, but it was Batista, not Orton, who tapped out.

    - He beats Seth Rollins at WM31, even though Seth wins the belt later on the show. When they fought the next month, it was in a Cage, where Seth won by climbing out of the cage after Kane cost Orton, both making Orton lose via screwy finish and not lose via pinfall or submission.

    -He gets Mr Kennedy fired from WWE, threatened by Kennedy's growing push.

    - His current feud with Bray Wyatt, where he has been made to look strong against Wyatt every time, and make Wyatt look weak. We don't see Orton crying in a corner (we shouldn't, but they shouldn't have had Bray do it either), we don't see Bray one-up Orton. Orton burns down Bray's compound, suddenly has supernatural powers when sticking a staff into the ground, and even Bray's mind-tricks at WM didn't hurt Orton, and he won the title again (which he doesn't need), totally unaffected by the mind-tricks, with one RKO, and pinning Bray easily, and Bray loses the title after one month, to appease Orton's massive ego.

    I know how this "House Of Horrors" match will work. Maybe there will be lots of scary and mind-bending things happen inside the match, yet Orton will no-sell it, and beat Bray without raising a sweat again. Bray Wyatt may as well go back to being Husky Harris, the way Orton has buried Bray Wyatt's character.

    So, tell me one up-and-comer that Orton has put over clean. It doesn't happen. I'm not counting when people like Cena or Triple H beat him. They are already at the top. Orton never gets pinned by guys who are climbing the main event ladder.

    Don't get too excited if they ever do A.J. Styles v Randy Orton. Orton will probably win every time, and if A.J. wins, it will be done in a way where Orton doesn't get pinned by him.

    At least Cena put over Daniel Bryan and Kevin Owens clean.
     
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  2. Psykohurricane55

    Psykohurricane55 Moderator
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    Simply put, Orton isn'T on the same level as cena or reigns in the fans opinion plus even through i think he'S boring as hell, fans really like Orton so they are ready to forgive him a lot more then Cena and REigns which are more wrestlers build for the kids then orton is.

    I agree with you Orton hasn't been ask to put alot of younger guys over but again just like Cena and Reigns, they don't have the power to decide who they want to put over or who they don'T want to put over, that's vince's decision, they are just following orders but try to explain that to fans these days.
     
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  3. d_henderson1810

    d_henderson1810 Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    He has some backstage stroke.

    If SCSA, HBK and Triple H could dictate who they won't lose to, then a guy who survived FOUR Wellness violations, and didn't get fired for crapping into a Diva's bag or trashing a motel room, surely has some.

    Orton won't put guys over because of his ego and "sense of entitlement" because he is a HoFer's son.
     
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  4. The Perfect Max

    The Perfect Max I Am Jericho

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    I do agree that Randy Orton is up there in the ranks of guys who have had many unnecessary wins (if you could call them that) over the years. However, he has had some significant losses too, and at times I did wonder whether he would ever reach the main event championship scene again. It seemed like an age between his World Heavyweight Championship win in 2004 and the "Age of Orton" in 2007. So in that respect, while I understand what you are saying, he at least spent 3-4 years in the mid-card, teasing the main event scene for a while. And while Cena did that too, many seemingly choose to forget that. Maybe Orton's rise wasn't as meteoric as Cena's I guess.

    I think since then, since 2007, he has been a little hit and miss. Yes he did beat the Legacy, but I wouldn't say he buried them at all. Cody Rhodes' best years were still ahead of him (I don't believe his best years are still ahead of him in 2017 but I'll happily eat my words if I'm wrong), and in my mind, Ted DiBiase Jr. disappointingly didn't possess the same charisma as his dad. They all moved on from that era and I think Rhodes benefitted greatly.

    As for other examples, like with Christian, again, he did win a lot of those matches, but to me it was perfectly benefitting the story they were telling with Christian. Christian won the belt, lost it, and could only win it again by disqualification. In story, he could never be what Edge was, and that ate at him. Ultimately, Orton lost the belt to Mark Henry, another veteran who had arguably been more irrelevant in years gone by. At least Christian remained relevant until his last few active months.

    I do understand your point greatly though. His recent win at WrestleMania 33 was a head-scratcher for me (well, the entire match was, how poor), but I think people don't recognise it as much because people don't consider Orton to be on the same level as John Cena, or even Roman Reigns. Reigns, at this point, generates more reaction that 95% of the roster, which is significant. Orton has had his highs and lows in his main event run, and arguably that's what has dictated the fan's response to his almost undetected dominance for the last 10 years. Maybe it's because someone has always been there (like Cena, Triple H, Edge etc.) to overshadow him at times. Or maybe it's because people were genuinely more invested in his character than they have been with Cena or Reigns. In 2010, when Orton won the WWE Championship, he was majorly over with the crowd. Therefore, the crowd don't care if he wins all the time, because they like him. Equally, however, his win over Bray for the title has left many (at least it seems anyway) with a sour taste in their mouths. It has for me anyway. When Orton won the title, it was a little "meh". Maybe that effect is setting in for me now.

    As far as his backstage antics are concerned, he is one lucky SOB to be honest. But I'm sure, as above posts suggest, it's who you know that sometimes helps you out.
     
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  5. wrestler36

    wrestler36 Championship Contender

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    Didn't he put Barrett over in a big way. I remember they had a pretty lengthy feud and Barrett had a few big wins over him
     
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  6. Kodo Sawaki

    Kodo Sawaki Championship Contender

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    Simply put, Orton is bigger star. People dont give him too much credit but before Punk, later Bryan, now Reigns and Rollins and AJ, Orton was no2 guy right next after Cena. He isnt Chris Jericho to put over talents clean, he is WWE go to guy when they need someone safe and big enough to put the strap over and have good matches. He loses to Cena, he loses to Reigns, he lost to guys like HHH and Batista, heck even to Rey Mysterio, but wont lose to likes of Ted DiBiase Jr and Cody. Dont expect him to lost a feud from midcard guys just yet, at least clean. As for why his name hasnt come up in discussion why he doesnt put guys IWC likes over, its because he isnt so prominent name like Cena. And because for every loss Cena takes (see Rusev, Wyatt, KO as examples) he takes 3 wins back. You really cant see Orton doing that, he maybe isnt putting people clean (he did lost to guys like Sheamus and even Bryan in build up for Wrestlemania 30) and is protected a lot but almost never see him coming up so decisively on top of feud like Cena does. He lost overall with Authority, he lost overall with Seth even if he didnt put him over clean, he lost in tag matches against Shield in 2 occasions (one at Wrestlemania, other with Evolution). That is why you cant see him so much when people complain about guys hogging that spotlight.
     
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  7. Issa Genesis

    Issa Genesis Actively evolving

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    Orton beat him 2 or 3 times in their initial feud and loss once following Cena getting Barrett DQ'ed. In their second feud, Orton dominated the rivalry until a Falls Count Anywhere match where Orton was thrown down stairs. However, if I'm not mistaken he came back and beat him again. So to answer your question no.

    Randy literally buried the entire Nexus worse than Cena did by literally "Kicking" then off TV and most were repackaged. I have always been a fan of Orton, but lately I'm ready for him to retire and I'm growing quite sick of him burying guys like Bray.

    To make a point, Reigns is a young star his self. Yes he should be losing some big matches as well. However, he's in the same generation right now. He's not a legend, it's not like he should be putting people over to prepare to take his role. Cena has definitely been putting people over more recently. Bryan, Shield, Owens, Cesaro (just by the matches alone,) Styles, Rollins, Ambrose, and several others.
     
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  8. mooseman

    mooseman Pre-Show Stalwart

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    Hasn't he put over in the past Kofi Kingston, Barrett and The Shield?
     
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  9. Pika

    Pika Pre-Show Stalwart

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    Cena stopped whatever a ton of people hated him for and had great matches nearly weekly on RAW, Great U.S. title run, put over Styles & Ambrose whether people remember that or not. Bray recovered, but he's still booked awful so no one really cares about that burial. Rusev's character was eventually going to backfire and then he's hardly around and when he did show up he had great promos & Matches with Ambrose, Styles, Wyatt, Miz, etc.

    I haven't seen anyone who is aware of reality not complain about Reigns whether it be a guy like Braun or a guy like Taker. Every time he does one good thing that does get praise it instantly get's erased by 3 or 4 bad things seemingly (or actually) immediately following. There is also a heavy number of other things people have to go against him in complaints in difference to the overall complaints on Cena.

    To Orton.. I've never seen anyone say he has put anyone over or any praise in regards to him putting over anyone. I've literally only heard people talk about how he beat Bryan, or CM Punk from people who compromise the majority WWE fan base. Then people I talk to about pro-wrestling in person and occasionally online don't talk about him, because there are way more interesting things even on the one show he is on to discuss. Literally all I have heard talked about is a few cool things he does, the RKO, a few career high spots / matches and then a bulk of backstage trash and him being lackluster.

    He's like a 4x World Heavyweight Champion, 9x & Current WWE Champion, Tag champ, 2x Royal Rumble winner, Money in the Bank winner, Smackdown Tag champ, etc.

    That is really, really insane considering I've heard way, way more bad things about him since I've watched WWE on and off as consistent as other wrestling. Lackluster, Untapped potential, Boring, etc are all things I have heard in regards to him without going into past detail. He did put over American Alpha actually, but then beat up Luke Harper 2 or 3 times in singles matches right after. So I mean he's willing to put you over if it progresses him in a storyline that really highlighted Bray which is why really anyone liked it to begin with. After the "Only one RKO. No enhancement needed" shot at Brock and then the actual Summerslam main event I don't think I can take him seriously on a "Sports entertainment" show anyway.

    I want to like Randy, but they key word there is want.
     
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  10. therockiswwf

    therockiswwf The voice of Michael Cole's headset

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    I think a lot of people forget that Orton is only 37. He isn't exactly at the end of his career yet. He still has a lot of mileage to go. Also, my goodness those examples are horrible.

    Legacy didn't need a win over Orton. It would have been a bit early for both of them plus it was a triple threat and not a handicap. His win over Dr. Doom Cody Rhodes did hurt Rhodes however (though the point of that was to remove Rhodes' face mask).

    Company probably was not super high yet on Punk when Orton beat him at Mania. I believe this was before he won a WWE championship not via MITB. The story being told made it so Orton had to win. Otherwise he would have looked like a geek. He had to take out the entire Nexus so he could get Punk alone. Losing that wouldn't have made Orton look good.

    Orton beating Rollins at Mania was to setup a feud for the title. That wasn't a burial nor the first time a guy cashed in on the same night he lost a previous match. The loss did not hurt Rollins (his cash in overshadowed that) and gave a reason to feud after it. Randy looks good. Rollins looks good. Everyone wins.

    The Christian feud was decided by Vince. That whole thing wasn't Orton's fault. If anything, Christian hurt Del Rio by beating him at the PPV before.

    Batista insisted Bryan tap him out. Batista was leaving soon and it left a reason for Orton to still want a rematch. The guy on the way out takes the loss. The guy remaining still looks good. That is good booking. The feud beforehand made Bryan look very strong as Orton could not beat Bryan without help (SS - HHH, HIAC - HBK). Plus one of Bryan's big wins actually came over Orton when he was starting to get hot. So Orton did help Bryan.

    Kennedy was unsafe. I do not blame Orton for complaining about a guy not being safe. They risk their damn lives out there and of course they will get mad if a guy does something wrong. I highly doubt that one move was the sole cause of Kennedy's firing.

    Orton did not need the win at Mania but the feud again, would have made Orton look like a geek if he lost. Spends months infiltrating the Wyatts, breaks them up and then loses would not be a good story. A lot of build for nothing.

    Orton really only hurt two guys who constantly tried to beat him. Sandow and Barrett. Those two could have really used a win but I guess management wasn't really high on them. He put Kofi over but Kofi was horribly booked afterwards. I don't think that moment Orton got mad at him put Kofi down. Kofi was stuck after that feud as the title scene was locked up and anyone else available was a step down from Orton. Bad timing for Kofi.
     
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  11. Jack-Hammer

    Jack-Hammer YOU WILL RESPECT MY AUTHORITAH!!!!
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    Orton pretty much buried Kofi Kingston at one point because Kofi made a mistake during one of their matches. Kofi hasn't been anywhere near the main event picture since. While Orton still has a lot of pull, as you'd expect from someone who's been a top guy in WWE since he was in his mid 20s, he was the #2 guy in WWE during this time and had more stroke. Orton doesn't have as much stroke as he used to since he failed his second Wellness Policy drug test a few years back; it pissed off a lot of executives in WWE who felt that the company was owed better than to be embarrassed like this by someone who they'd continuously pushed as a top guy for a decade and some wanted him fired.

    Orton was one of several guys who put over the Shield in various settings, usually in some form of tag or six man tag team match. Even though he beat Seth Rollins at WrestleMania XXXI, Orton jobbed to him clean on Raw months earlier.

    When it comes to Wade Barrett, I didn't see Barrett gaining anything out of the feud other than being solidified as a mid-card star. There are times in which younger or fresher guy gets pushed to rise up the card against higher level players and then there are younger and fresher guys who're used to bolster the guys who're higher up while getting a bit of a rub for themselves. I always saw Wade Barrett as the latter but what hurt Barrett more than anything else was that he was so injury prone. He'd be in the middle of a strong push with a good amount of momentum going for him, then he'd suffer an injury that'd put him on the shelf for months at a time, then they'd sort of have to start over with Barrett and usually right when he was back in the midst of climbing up the card, he'd suffer some other injury that's put him back on the shelf for several months. As much as I was a fan of Barrett and enjoyed his work and while the injuries were just one of those things that could happen to anybody, they still made him pretty unreliable.

    When I think of the guys who get plastered with the "Super" label, it's not as much about winning almost every single time, though it's part of it, as it is about how they win. The whole Super Cena bit came about not only because he rarely lost, but because he was booked to the point where he was able to overcome almost anything and any seemingly impossible odds while the only times he'd lose was often due to the booking make it look like either a fluke, interference at exactly the right second or technicalities such as an MITB cash in. I mean, there were times in which Cena would have to overcome outside interference from 2 to 5 different wrestlers throughout various points in the match and would still almost always come out the victor. I haven't seen that in Roman Reigns and I don't really recall ever seeing it with Orton. Sure, they've over come interference at some point just like any other babyface but it wasn't so overwhelming as it often was with Cena. One of the last real times I remember Cena being in full out Super Cena mode was shortly after Cena was squashed by Brock Lesnar at SummerSlam and Vince was allegedly paranoid that fans would stop believing in Cena, so he had Cena obliterate all three members of the Wyatt Family.
     
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  12. d_henderson1810

    d_henderson1810 Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    How you describe Cena as overcoming all odds, was the template of a previous successful face who overcome and won most of the time, or lost via screwy finish. It happened in one of WWE's most successful eras.

    You might have heard of him. His name was- HULK HOGAN!

    Every PPV, Hogan stood victorious, having slain the latest in a long line of big guys and foreign heels. Many hear probably were "Hulkamaniacs".

    I always wonder how Hogan's reign would have looked if the internet was around, or how "Super Cena" would have gone in the "Rock N' Wrestling" era.
     
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  13. Glacier

    Glacier Pre-Show Stalwart

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    Orton is like the tattle-tale in school who tells on everyone, that is
    what he did to Mr Kennedy.

    No wonder he wont put anyone over, he is afraid they will take his spot.
     
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  14. S.J. Maximus

    S.J. Maximus Championship Contender

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    Orton has been pinned clean on ppv by the likes of Dolph Ziggler, Cody Rhodes, Kofi Kingston, and JACK SWAGGER. If that list doesn't scream midcard talent then I don't know what will. This is a guy who ended his good title reign to give Mark Henry a charity title run and lost to KANE (a guy whose been the jobber to the stars since 1999) at WrestleMania.

    I actually think he has lost too often, he is the 2nd biggest star of his time and I think every time he fights on ppv there should be a huge gasp if he doesnt walk out with his hand raised. He spent the entire year of 2012 putting over random flavors of the month and spends his down time trading wins with Sheamus and losing at WrestleMania. It's unfortunate that as soon as he strings 2 big wins together he all of a sudden has a massive ego and buries talent but the fact of the matter is no PG star has been more willing to put over the next generation than Randy Orton.

    In order for his losses to mean something he has to win, I think that fact can be best illustrated by the entire career of Brock Lesnar or the infamous Streak that the Undertaker had. Randy has no problem losing to anyone and I'm absolutely certain he will lose many times again in the future but let's try to build him back up before we tear him down again. When was the last time the IWC truly believed Chris Jericho was going to win a feud?2010? That's what happens when you lose every single time without getting some wins to balance it out. Guys like HHH, Randy, Brock, still have value because they win more often than they lose.
     
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  15. kadroan

    kadroan King Of The Ring

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    The past is the past. Prior to his WM win, he hasn't been champ since 2014, like Cena taking a backseat while Rollins, Reigns, AJ and Ambrose all been champs since then. He could have easily used his backstage influence to stop any of those guys from being champ.
     
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  16. thebarber

    thebarber Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    We are talking about the guy who was cleanly pinned numerous times by Roman Reigns, dropped the World Title to The Miz of all people........

    Orton gets booked to do whatever Vince wants, hardly Orton burying talent. He will do his share of elevating in 2017, starting with whomever he drops the belt to
     
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  17. d_henderson1810

    d_henderson1810 Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    I think the main reasons that the IWC don't crap on Orton as much and Cena and Roman is:-

    1) Orton has been better in the ring than either of them, and has more "cool" moves (such as when he hits an RKO out of nowhere).

    2) Randy Orton plays a heel for most of his career. He has never been the guy because he has never played the role of No.1 face. He is either the main heel, or the No. 2 or 3 face. He has never been "the guy" because they want "good guys" to play that role, and Orton is too heelish in his persona and mannerisms to ever be that "role model".
     
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  18. LBGetBack

    LBGetBack Championship Contender

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    Guess what? He shouldn't have lost to Rhodes and Dibiase. Those guys didn't have it. Orton's way better.

    Guess what? He shouldn't have lost to Christian. Christian was good, but not a main event guy. The right guy won.

    Sick of you people always wanting the worse guy to win and crying when it doesn't happen.
     
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  19. Deoxyribonucleic A.C.I.D.

    Deoxyribonucleic A.C.I.D. Kamehamehaaaaa!!

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    People tend to forget that up until 2007 Orton was losing to every major star in the company. Triple H, Batista, Angle, Hogan, Cena. All went over the young and hungry Orton. It's just the WWE recipe.

    Then 2007-2010 was his time to shine. Beating Punk 3 times in a row was a bit too much, but what about after that?
    I remember him putting over Ziggler and Rhodes on Smackdown, but not on PPV. He lost to Kane at WM 28. He then put over Shield. I also remember him losing all the time to Brayn during July/June of 2013, before the Authority saga. He clearly took a fall for Lesnar and a big one. He lost his feud with Rollins. He put over Reigns, clean.

    There's no super Orton. The Legacy split was never going to work anyways. DiBiase did NOTHING after the split and Rhodes was not ready in 2010 to be a loner. The whole thing was also so badly booked.

    Also he lost twice to Mark Henry. Clean.

    So please give credit to where's credit's due. The whole story was always meant to put over Orton. It seems like Bray has reached his potential for now. He's a valuable asset and still 29 years old. He clearly repackaged Orton all by himself.

    EDIT: His feud was Barrett was praised by Steve Austin himself back in 2011, as it was simple, fun, entertaining and effecting, saying that two wrestlers don't need to fight the regular 2-1 on PPVs to provide something interesting. Barrett was getting his first major singles run exposure at the main event scene. Nexus doesn't count since he had 6 other people all the time with him. Of course he was going to lose, but you forget that Barrett was getting the biggest exposure of his career and many fans wanted this feud to end at Wrestlemania 28, because it was that damn good. Then Barrett gets injured and has to be written off TV.
     
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  20. d_henderson1810

    d_henderson1810 Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Orton should have beaten Legacy at 'Mania, but should have copped a few beat-downs by them on the way through. Having one guy beat two guys constantly is stupid.

    What, Orton couldn't have got pinned once by Christian in any of their matches?

    It's not winning their blow-off match, it's Orton dominance the entire way through the feud, and how he is never made to look bad during it.
     
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  21. d_henderson1810

    d_henderson1810 Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    I don't remember Ziggler beating him (bet it wasn't on PPV), he buried Kofi at the end, and losing to Jack Swagger? Jack Swagger was never going to do anything.

    Who cares about him losing to Mark Henry? So, he won't do the job to up-and-comer Punk, or veteran crowd favourite Christian, but puts over the most irrelevant man in the WWE (and, no, it's not because he is black. It is because he has been stopped and started with more than anyone).

    Orton loses to guys who will never be relevant anyway, such as Swagger and Henry. Those are wasted. Why doesn't he lose to someone who it will actually make them more over and elevate them, such as Punk,Cody Rhodes, Christian or Bray Wyatt?

    It wouldn't hurt Orton to do the job or two, or be hoodwinked in a segment by one of the up-and-comers he is feuding with, where his opponent leaves the match or segment looking a million bucks. Cena made Owens, Cesaro and Sami Zayn look great after his U.S. Title matches last year, even when he won. If Orton wins, it should be that he has to work hard to get victory, not deliver only one RKO after a mind-game by Bray Wyatt.
     
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  22. Jeff Deliverer of Mail

    Jeff Deliverer of Mail Money for nothin, chicks for free
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    I remember the reason Orton joined The Wyatt Family is because Bray kept beating Orton over and over again. With run ins involved.

    If you want to put something in the "super" status, put Randy Ortons R.K.O. It's professional wrestlings most powerful finisher. We saw Goldberg's Jackhammer go down at Mania when Brock kicked out of it but how often have you seen the R.K.O get kicked out of? Never, its super protected as a nuke powered special move. Cena can AA people off of the top, then AA the same guy (Styles ) in the match and it gets kicked out of. The AA gets kicked out of alot. The Styles Clash is another finisher that rarely wins the match with the first try. Non wrestler Shane even kicked out of it. Roman has to use 12 Superman Punches and three or four spears to end a match.....

    ...but the R.K.O is golden. It's the "super" part of Randy Orton that never fails.
     
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  23. ShinChan

    ShinChan Gone. For. Good.

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    I don't mind him beating Seth Rollins at Wrestlemania 31 because the win won't even matter in contrast with the main event win.

    I don't mind Batista tapping out to Bryan as he wasn't going to stay but Randy Orton was. So, he could afford to tap while Randy Orton wouldn't.

    He did need to have a competitive match against Bray Wyatt instead of whatever we got. I would've loved a Bray Wyatt win but it won't make sense in the storytelling.
     
    #23

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