Second Round : New York - Bret Hart vs. Kenta Kobashi

Discussion in 'The Chicago Region' started by klunderbunker, May 1, 2010.

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Who Wins This Matchup?

  1. Bret Hart

  2. Kenta Kobashi

Multiple votes are allowed.
Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. It's...Baylariat!

    It's...Baylariat! Team Finnley Baylor

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    I know this, but I also want people to be informed and if they still want to choose Hart after knowing the facts, then so be it.

    Hart's lost in big MSG matches twice. To HBK and to Owen Hart. Kobashi's better than both of those wrestlers.

    Kobashi is Japanese and in kayfabe, Japan's seen as the enemy. So of course it's tougher for Japanese folks to 'get over' in America, but that doesn't mean Kobashi couldn't out wrestle Hart. It just means he won't be cheered when he beats Hart. :D
     
    #26
  2. Steamboat Ricky

    Steamboat Ricky WZCW's Living Legend

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    Yeah, but then Bret went on to win the WWF Title later that night against someone far more over than Owen.

    And to simply say that the home field advantage just determines who will be cheered upon victory is ignorance to the max. It would change the dynamics of the match and the spirit of the competitors.
     
    #27
  3. Mr. Truth

    Mr. Truth Real American Hero

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    When fans hear Kobashi's entrance theme (which is much better then Bret's) they'll start chanting for him. KOBASHI!

    How is this not the most epic entrance theme ever?
    [YOUTUBE]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/swB43vKqteI&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/swB43vKqteI&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/YOUTUBE]

    While this is pretty good, and it really does suit Bret, it's just got nothing on Grand Sword.
    [YOUTUBE]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/dqMNuit1dM0&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/dqMNuit1dM0&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/YOUTUBE]
     
    #28
    It's...Baylariat! likes this.
  4. Papa Shango

    Papa Shango Frontman of the WZ Band!!

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    1) Tough to say that Yokozouna was more over than Owen Hart. As I remember it, and I was young so forgive me if I'm off, but the Owen vs. Bret rivalry was THE most intense feud I could remember up to that point. Owen was getting ENOURMOUS heel heat. Now, Yoko was a top heel as well, but I clearly remember me and my friends actually kinda liking Yokozouna, and despising Owen Hart. So really I think saying Yoko was far more over is debatable.

    2) I already said this but I'll say it again. Yoko beat Yoko. He fell, Hart took advantage. Out of context, yes Bret won the title, but in context, it's one of the weakest finishes to a World Championship match that I've ever seen. The Owen vs. Bret match is far more memorable, and Bret's loss to Owen is much more memorable than his win over Yoko.

    But it's not a deciding factor, especially considering Bret Hart is Canadian. He's popular in the US, true, but not like he is in Canada. If they were wrestling in Montreal then I would say it could be enough to turn the tide in Bret's favor (especially since Bret refuses to do the job in Canada lol), but I say in New York it's mute, especially since the NYC crowds can be very fickle, and a little smarky, so I would think that Kenta would have some sort of fanbase in the crowd.
     
    #29
  5. Hulkamaniac

    Hulkamaniac Vote Hogan, Savage, Rocky and Thesz

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    The Owen Hart loss, from a kayfabe perspective, isn't really fair to hold against Bret Hart. He had a World championship match later on that night, I hardly think he was terribly focused on his match with Owen (again, from a kayfabe perspective). Bret beat Owen when it mattered.
     
    #30
  6. Mr. Truth

    Mr. Truth Real American Hero

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    Owen was a midcarder who a lot of people here only love due to his tragic death. The main eventer should go over the midcarder at least 80% of the time. Not only that, but I'd place beating my brother in a wrestling match over beating the champ for the title. So in the night at MSG in question, Bret failed to beat his brother and barely beat Yoko, only because Yoko messed up.
     
    #31
  7. Tastycles

    Tastycles Turn Bayley heel

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    I've voted for Kobashi because enough people have made compelling arguments for me to do so, essentially. Well done. I've seen a few of his matches and enjoyed them, I've seen more of Hart's, and some of them have been really quite entertaining, but there's never really been enough charisma for me there. Hart doesn't deserve as much love as he gets, and this vote is a much a vote against him than for Kobashi.
     
    #32
  8. Hulkamaniac

    Hulkamaniac Vote Hogan, Savage, Rocky and Thesz

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    That's ridiculous. You would place beating your brother in an inconsequential opening match (where your brother has always been in your shadow) over winning the most prestigious title in the world in the Main Event of the biggest Wrestling event in the world? In this hypothetical world, you may want to find another line of work. The entire point of wrestling is supposed to be winning the title. It's supposed to be everyone's goal.
     
    #33
  9. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    In the past 6 months, I've learned more about Kobashi than I ever thought I would. Thanks to guys like Xfear and Tdigs, I am beginning to open my eyes to Japanese pro-wrestling. I can honestly say that I am an official fan of Kobashi's work now.

    That being said, I've said it before; I think Bret Hart is severely overrated. Now, before I get lynched, I believe he is a spectacular wrestler. But I just don't have as much enthusiasm as the majority of you do for him.

    Therefore, I feel Bret should take his final bows and Kobashi should get the nod here. But, from the looks of the numbers, I guess Bret will live to fight another day.
     
    #34
  10. Ferbian

    Ferbian Has Returned.

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    I'm actually a little torn here, seeing as both wrestlers are incredibly talented, two of the greatest wrestlers of all time without the shadow of a doubt, Kenta Kobashi having achieved much less than Bret Hart although, so from a title stand point Bret Hart would've won it, but on the other hand, Bret Hart has nothing, and I mean NOTHING on Kenta's abilities to put on 5 star matches, I mean his resume is purely consisting of 5 star matches, match of the year etc.

    Kenta's move set is incredible, but so is Bret Hart's move set, but in the end, I think Kenta might have to go over on this one, cause in the end, I have to admit he is the superior wrestler, he just is.

    Vote Kenta Kobashi.
     
    #35
  11. Mr. Truth

    Mr. Truth Real American Hero

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    Can we just say Kobashi wins this match because the people who support him actually took the time to type out reasons why he should win? If we discount the one line replies and ludicrous arguments, it's even more towards Kobashi. I know that it's supposed to be "whoever gets the most votes wins" type deal, but clearly, Hart's supporters don't care enough to type out a marginally thought out reason as to how he'd beat Kobashi.

    Kobashi is the superior wrestler here and drew more. He's put on more 5 star matches. Bret has the advantage of it being in MSG (which isn't huge since NYC is home to a ton of smarks, and I bet Japanese fans would fly out to see this match) and being able to put on a better promo, which doesn't help in the ring.

    Be Smart, vote KOBASHI
     
    #36
  12. The Brain

    The Brain King Of The Ring

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    I'm one of the biggest Bret Hart fans there is. I'm trying to be objective and have still not voted. I appreciate the links you posted earlier and just got done watching the first match. I could see it was a great match, but I still don't know enough about Kobashi. Obviously the commentary was in Japanesse so I wasn't given any kind of story. This is sports entertainment and the story is just as important as the match. Other than a list of matches from the Observer (which is impressive, but I just don't have much respect for the Observer) give me something on Kobashi. Compare him to wrestlers I would know. Would you say he was to Japan what Hogan was to America in the 80's? Austin during attitude? Cena now? Not talent in the ring, but his impact on wrestling in Japan. I'm not looking to argue; I'm looking to learn because I honestly don't know.
     
    #37
  13. Mr. Truth

    Mr. Truth Real American Hero

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    That's a tough one, since I too don't speak Japanese, I just go by his matches. The first name that came to mind is HBK. Kobashi was terrific from the 90s through 2006, winning titles and putting on numerous 5-star matches. He was then diagnosed with cancer and took a year off to fight it and win. He came back and had to have a surgery shortly after that shelved him for half a year. After getting back in the ring he continues to win titles, currently hold the GHC Openweight Hardcore Championship. I think he's had a greater impact on the business in Japan then HBK has here, has put on better matches, and is the better wrestler, but I think their careers have followed a similar path.
     
    #38
    The Brain likes this.
  14. dd23beatlesfan1

    dd23beatlesfan1 Getting Noticed By Management

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    I'm not going to delve too deeply into the debate on this one because I just don't know enough about Kenta Kobashi to try to debate the Kenta fans here. IMO Bret Hart is amongst the greatest American in-ring performers of the last 25 years (yep even better than Shawn Michaels), so Bret Hart will get my vote in just about every matchup (unless he goes up against Hogan, Andre, or Flair).

    I'm not going to argue against Kenta here, so sorry to the Kenta fans who are looking for someone to debate. I'm not going to debate on why Kenta should lose, because I just don't know enough about the guy to try. Honestly.

    However, some of the arguments that I'm reading against Bret Hart are just utter crap. Such as the Tdigle guy. If that guy's not obvious in his pure hatred for Bret Hart, then nothing is obvious. I mean the guy used quotes from Ric Flair's book as backup for his opinions on Bret Hart. That's just ridiculous. I don't care what Ric Flair has to say about Bret Hart, because in every interview I've seen Flair have in the last 5 years in which he's talked about Bret Hart, it's obvious that he was trying to suck Triple H and Shawn Michaels' dicks when discussing his opinions on Bret Hart. He was never being objective and was painfully obvious that he had one day sat down with Hunter and HBK heard how much they badmouthed him, and now he agrees with them and that Bret Hart meant absolutely nothing to the wrestilng business. Bullshit. I'd say Ric Flair is the greatest wrestler of the modern era. But Bret Hart is darn near close and to demean Bret like Flair has over the last few years, screw him.

    Put it this way, other than Ric Flair, Shawn Michaels, and Triple H, what other wrestlers have you heard talk crap about Bret Hart over the years? Now I'm not talking about his personal character, as Bret does have an ego. But so does every major wrestler. I'm talking about ability and greatness as a pro wrestler. Flair says Bret basically was overrated and sucked and couldn't draw worth a dime. What other wrestler has said stuff about Bret and criticized his career as a talent? I've never heard any actually. And we all know Triple H and HBK had personal issues with Bret, and that Flair at the time was the permanent ass kisser of HBK and Triple H, so yeah should anyone really take Flair seriously in judging Bret Hart and his legacy on pro wrestling? If you can't see that he wasn't just trying to kiss Triple H and HBK's asses, then you're blind. Anyone with a brain and objectivity wouldn't. And to use quotes from Ric Flair's book as backup in your argument against Bret Hart in this match is just crap. Sorry but it is.

    The other argument I've seen used that is just ridiculous is the fact that Kenta Kobashi has been given far more 5 star ratings from Dave Meltzer and the Wrestling Observer than Bret Hart. That is a crap argument too. Not to discredit Kenta and his 5 star matches. I'm sure they're great matches and deserve the 5 star ratings. But using this as evidence is not fair at all to Bret Hart or American wrestling in general. Because anyone who knows about this stuff will know two things. One, Dave Meltzer has the biggest hard on for Japanese wrestling than anyone probably on the planet. If two local guys that work at a seafood place in Japan and came to a wrestling show and put on a match, Dave would probably give it 5 stars. Dave Meltzer probably sits at home and *********es to Japanese pro wrestling matches. He's the biggest mark for Japanese wrestling ever.

    The other thing is that he has a strong bias against the WWF, always has and always will. Does anyone here really truly believe that only four matches in the entire history of the WWE deserved five stars. If you really believe that then you are a sheep who worships the ground that Dave Meltzer walks on which is pathetic. I can think of plenty of matches in the last 25 years of the WWE that deserved 5 star ratings but didn't get them because they didn't feature Japanese wrestlers in them. Some examples? How about...

    Randy Savage vs. Ricky Steamboat (Wrestlemania III) (1987)

    Randy Savage vs. The Ultimate Warrior (Wrestlemania VII) (1991)

    The Royal Rumble match (1992)

    Bret Hart vs. British Bulldog (Summerslam 92) (1992)

    Bret Hart vs. Owen Hart (Wrestlemania X) (1994)

    Shawn Michaels vs. Razor Ramon (Ladder Match) (Summerslam 95) (1995)

    Owen Hart vs. The British Bulldog (WWF Raw) (1997)

    Kurt Angle vs. Chris Benoit (Royal Rumble 2003) (2003)

    Kurt Angle vs. Brock Lesnar (Iron Man Match) (Smackdown) (2003)

    Chris Benoit vs. Shawn Michaels vs. Triple H (Triple Threat Match) (Wrestlemania XX) (2004)

    Kurt Angle vs. Shawn Michaels (Wrestlemania 21)

    Shawn Michaels vs. The Undertaker (Wrestlemania 25)


    That's just a few. All of those matches and more deserved a 5 star rating but didn't get them. And of course some of those matches included, who in them? That's right, Bret Hart.

    Dave Meltzer wouldn't give a 5 star rating to a WWE matchup if someone put a gun to his mother's head. And in a complete twist if someone put a gun to his mother's head and said they were going to shoot if you give this Japanese match a 5 star rating, he'd say "I love you Mom, goodbye" and then give the Japanese match a 5 star rating and then probably watch it again and *********e.


    Ric Flair's book and Dave Meltzer's list of 5 star rating matches are horrible examples to try to use against Bret Hart and for any Japanese wrestler. I'm not discrediting Kobashi or Japanese wrestling as a whole. It deserves the praise and credit it gets, but yeah, the WWE and American wrestling as a whole is much better than Dave Meltzer would have you believe.


    If you're going to vote for Kenta Kobashi, vote for him because you, yourself ,feel that he is the greater wrestler and has the greater legacy on wrestling. Don't vote against Bret Hart just because Ric Flair hates Bret Hart and thinks he's overrated and because Dave Meltzer says that Kenta has more 5 star matches. Because those are bullshit arguments. Plain and simple.
     
    #39
    Phoenix, Supernova and The Brain like this.
  15. ScreaminNormanSmiley

    ScreaminNormanSmiley formerly ScreaminNormanSmiley

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    well after reading that i dont think you have any room to talk about bullshit arguments.

    first of all you say you are not going to debate on why kenta should lose because you dont know enough about him, if you dont know enough about him you shouldnt be voting.

    next you talk about how its bullshit to use the five star ratings when you say you havent seen kentas mathces. if you had of watched them you would realize he does deserve every single one of them. and then you go on to list all the wwe matches you think deserver them. well two of the matches you listed did get them so you shouldnt bitch about them not getting five stars. one of them was bret harts vs owen. in fact bret has had two five star matches, the same amount you listed so dont complain about how many brett has, when kenta has rightfully earned more when you even say he probly deserved them.

    and most of your post is complaining about dave meltzer, but im willing to bet that most of us who voted on kenta because we have seen how great he is not we were told he was. and ill let it be known now that i love bret harts work and was willng to give him a chance to earn my vote but the fact is kenta is better and nobody proved that wrong.

    and next time you really should do some research instead of just voting for who you no more about, thats just being ignorant.
     
    #40
  16. dd23beatlesfan1

    dd23beatlesfan1 Getting Noticed By Management

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    From reading the majority of your response to my initial post in this thread, it's clear you missed the entire point of my post.

    On this one point I will concede to you here. You are probably right in that I shouldn't have voted in this matchup. And in matches where I wasn't very familiar with a wrestler, I tried not to vote in that matchup. Hence why I will probably not vote in the Rock/Mitsuharu Misawa matchup, as I know far more about the Rock than Misawa, but I respect Misawa's accomplishments and legacy on wrestling enough to not just blindly vote for the Rock. However, Bret Hart is one of my favorite wrestlers, and is one of the greatest in-ring performers I have ever seen. This is a case where I like Bret so much I will vote for him in every matchup, whether or not I'm familiar with the opponent. Bret is one of my favorites in this tournament, and I will do everything I can to see he advances unless he runs up against someone who I know and honestly feel is greater (like Flair, Hogan, Andre, Stone Cold, etc.). I am certainly not the only person who has voted for a favorite whether they were familiar with their opponent or not, and I'm sure I won't be the last person to do so. Everyone in this tournament has used biasedness to vote in certain matchups. In fact I happened to come across this little nugget from yourself in the Hulk Hogan/Triple H thread....

    Now yeah, your reasoning for your biased vote had a different circumstance then what I did in this matchup, but either way both of us have been baised in our votes for certain matches just as everyone else here has.

    So sorry to the Kenta fans, but I'm not going to just stand aside and not support one of my top choices for the tournament. If Kenta had been against a lesser opponent, I may have sat on the sidelines, but not when it's against Bret Hart.


    So you're probably right in your post on that one point, but the rest of your post is accusing me of stuff that's just not true at all....



    Hmmm. Way to be redundant there buddy. I already stated in my initial post that I'm sure Kenta deserved the 5 star ratings for his matches and that most of the Japanese wrestling matches that Dave Meltzer has given 5 stars to probably deserve them as well. But just in case you missed that part, let me point it out for you.....


    That's two occurances where I gave respect to Kobashi and Japanese wrestling. So quit trying to make me look like a blind, ignorant Bret Hart and WWE fan. All you're doing is showing that you're not reading my posts properly and completely misinterpreting the points I made in my post.

    My argument against Dave Meltzer's five star ratings list was not meant at all to be a knock against Kobashi or Japanese wrestling. The whole point of it was to express that trying to use that list as an example of why Kobashi is better than Bret Hart is just not a fair or credible argument. I am sure of the fact that Bret Hart has put on more than 2 five star matches in his career. I'm sure Kobashi deserves the 25/26 or whatever the number is 5 star matches he has been given by Dave Meltzer, but Bret Hart deserves far more than just two five star matches. It's a bullshit support. Because Dave Meltzer is very biased against the WWE and really American wrestling, and that's the point I was bringing. So using his list as evidence that Bret Hart isn't as good as Kenta Kobashi is just not sound at all.

    Don't use Dave Meltzer's list of five star matches as reasoning that Kenta Kobashi is better than Bret Hart. Use your own list of 5 star matches. (I'm speaking generally here, not directly to you just to spell out for you) If you give Kenta more 5 star matches than Bret Hart, than cool. Kenta has put on better matches in your opinion than Bret Hart. That's all I was arguing. Dave Meltzer is just not a credible source for this argument. He's very biased towards Japanese wrestling and never gives WWE or American wrestling in general the credit it deserves.



    Here is the list of matches I put in my initial post. All are matches that DIDN'T get a 5 star rating and are matches that I feel deserves them. And for shits and giggles, I decided to also list the ratings that Dave Meltzer gave them....



    In case you're wondering where I got those ratings from, here you are....


    http://starratingslist.blogspot.com/2009/09/wwe-observer-star-ratings-1986-present.html


    Did any of those matches get 5 stars like you claim they did? Ummmm no, they did not. And they are all deserving of 5 stars not only IMO but I'm sure plenty of other people here on the group would agree. Once again nice try in trying to make me look like a stupid poster who doesn't know what he's talking about. You failed :)


    The four WWF/E matches that have gotten 5 stars are the following.....

    Shawn Michaels vs. Razor Ramon (Wrestlemania X) (Ladder Match) (1994)

    Bret Hart vs. Owen Hart (Summerslam 94) (Cage Match) (1994)

    Bret Hart vs. Steve Austin (Wrestlemania XIII) (1997)

    Shawn Michaels vs. The Undertaker (In Your House: Bad Blood) (1997)


    Where you messed up on your post was with the first two matches. You obviously didn't notice which particular matches I said should have gotten 5 stars and which ones actually did. Bret and Owen did indeed get 5 stars. But it was their Summerslam 94 Cage Match that got 5 stars, when I put their Wrestlemania X match on my list of matches that should've got 5 stars.

    And you were obviously thinking of the first Ladder Match at Wrestlemania X as the HBK/Razor match that got 5 stars. Indeed it did. But I didn't put that one on my list. I put their 2nd Ladder Match at Summerslam 95 on my list.

    So yeah it looks like you're the one that isn't doing their research. Next time you want to chew me out and try to make me look stupid, make sure you have your facts straight.

    Nitpicking aside, once again the reason I brought that list up was to further prove my point that Dave Meltzer is not a credible source in judging WWE matches nor Bret Hart matches. And to further prove my claim that he is obviously biased against WWE and American wrestling at large. I'm sure many people here would agree with at least most of the matches I listed being deserving of 5 stars. So the fact that he gave Kenta Kobashi 23 or whatever 5 star matches and Bret Hart only 2 5 star matches doesn't really matter worth a damn if you ask me.

    And I'm not the only person who feels that way as I've already gotten positive rep from 3 people on this post I made.


    As for the other half of that particular passage of your post, yes Bret Hart has gotten 2 five star matches according to Dave Meltzer, but I feel as I'm sure many others here do feel that he deserves far more. I'm sorry but the fact that Kenta Kobashi has gotten more 5 star ratings from Dave Meltzer than Bret Hart just isn't a credible argument to me in the idea of Kenta being a better wrestler than Bret. It just isn't. It's one guy's opinion. And the opinion of a guy who is the biggest Japanese wrestling mark on the planet and who has always had a strong bias against the WWE. So yeah I will bitch about it, because it's just not right. And it's not a credible argument against Bret nor for Kenta. Which once again, was all I was pointing out in my post.


    And I only pointed out two particular arguments against Bret Hart that I had a problem with. Tdigle's use of quotes from Ric Flair's book, and the argument that Kenta has more 5 star matches according to Dave Meltzer than Bret Hart. I agree that pretty much all of the posters here put up excellent arguments for Kenta and I had no problem whatsoever with. I have tons of respect for just about everyone here. I know this is a group of wrestling fans who know their shit and I respect just about everyone's opinions.

    Once again my post was not an anti Kenta post, which seems to be what you're trying to turn it into. I never had anything against Kenta nor anyone that voted for him. My statements at the end of my post in which I talked about why people should vote for Kenta were general statements and statements to anyone that might vote in the future. It wasn't a reflection of the people that already voted for and posted about Kenta on here. I can tell that the people that posted on the thread in support of Kenta know their shit and had good reasons for voting for Kenta.

    I never once in my post tried to persuade people not to vote for Kenta Kobashi. I never even tried to get people to vote for Bret Hart. I only pointed out two arguments against Bret Hart that I thought were crap arguments. Simple as that.

    Your accusations of me in your post simply hold no relevance to anything my post was about at all.



    And you should actually read my posts carefully and comprehend what I'm talking about before responding back.

    Oh, and when trying to point out flaws in my posts and making me look stupid and like I don't know what I'm talking about, perhaps some research beforehand would do you some good as well.
     
    #41

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