Round 2: Tenta -vs- Little Jerry Lawler

Discussion in 'Debater's League 2010' started by D-Man, Aug 8, 2010.

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  1. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Has TNA been the true example that star power is not enough to be a great company these days?

    This is a second round match in the Debater's League. Tenta is the home debater and gets to choose which side of the debate they will be on and who debates first, but they have 24 hours to make their choice.

    This thread is for DEBATERS ONLY and will end on Friday at 2pm EST.

    Good luck.​
     
    #1
  2. Tenta

    Tenta The Shark Should've Worked in WCW

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    I'm gonna take the affirmative, that TNA is a true example that star power does not create a great company. I will take the first post.

    First of all, I'm going to star out this argument with Four Noble Truths, Regarding TNA. It's a new, fun little way to set up my arguments, and I believe we're all going to agree to these sentiments by the end of this debate. By discovering these Four Noble Truths, TNA will begin it's slow, deliberate climb to Enlightenment. However, it won't be easy. The main thing I'm going to discuss states that, ultimately, The stars in which TNA has signed on to wrestler currently aren't improving the product. Let's start with a first, undeniable Noble Truth.

    1. TNA is currently suffering.

    Yes, they are, and it's not even in question. In the midst of attempting to measure up to the WWE, TNA has saw fit to sign every free agent with star power possible. Everyone from Hulk Hogan to Brooke Adams, from Ric Flair to Brian Kendrick, from RVD.. You get my point. All of the potential names with star value that have wrestled in other, more famous promotions, TNA has sought, in a desperate attempt to grab ratings and viewers from the WWE's programming. The results? They haven't been pretty.

    Januray 4th; 1.45 (keep in mind, this was a three hour special, in which RVD, Hogan, Jeff Hardy, and Eric Bischoff made their grand TNA debut. This was to test the waters, and TNA came out guns blazing)

    3/8/2010
    WWE RAW Rating - 3.4
    TNA iMPACT! (Live) Rating** - 1.0

    * TNA iMPACT! officially moves to Monday Night with a live show every other week.

    ** TNA iMPACT! Reply (3/11) Scored 1.0 Rating. Combined with the live iMPACT! the rating would be roughly a 2.0


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    3/15/2010
    WWE RAW Rating* - 3.7
    TNA iMPACT! (Taped) Rating**r - 0.84

    * Steve Austin returns to host RAW.

    ** First Taped TNA iMPACT! Monday Broadcast.

    r SpikeTV reply the show (3/18) (not originally scheduled) The rating matched that of the taped show.


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    3/22/2010
    WWE RAW Rating* - 3.24
    TNA iMPACT! (Live) Rating** - 0.86

    * Last Monday Night RAW before WrestleMania 26.

    ** There is no TNA iMPACT! Replay this week.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    3/29/2010
    WWE RAW Rating* - 3.7
    TNA iMPACT! (Taped) Rating** - 0.6

    * Post-WrestleMania Show, Shawn Michaels Farewell.

    ** Lowest iMPACT! rating in five years.


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    4/5/2010
    WWE RAW Rating - 3.2
    TNA iMPACT! (Live) Rating* - 0.9

    * The first hour was unopposed - iMPACT! Hour 2 went up against Hour 1 of RAW.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    4/12/2010
    WWE RAW Rating (Taped) * - 3.2
    TNA iMPACT! (Taped) Rating** - 0.8
    TNA ReAction Rating # - 0.3

    * RAW was taped in London, England.

    **TNA iMPACT! moves officially 8:00pm EST with the first hour unopposed, The second hour is against Hour 1 of RAW

    # TNA debut NEW pilot show TNA ReAction at 7PM ET on SpikeTV in the hour prior to iMPACT!


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    4/19/2010
    WWE RAW Rating (Taped) * - 3.0
    TNA iMPACT! (Live) Rating** - 1.0

    * Due to flights being grounded in the UK WWE Raw Superstars and crew were stuck in Belfast, Ireland unable to fly in for broadcast. Smackdown covered a re-scriped show.

    ** Highest rated iMPACT! since Monday Night move on March 8th, 2010


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    4/26/2010
    WWE RAW Rating * - 3.1 / (regular 2 Hours - 3.3 rating)
    TNA iMPACT! (Taped) Rating** - 0.5

    * 3 Hour 2010 WWE Draft
    ** Full 2 Hours of iMPACT! went up against RAW


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    5/3/2010
    WWE RAW Rating - 3.05
    TNA iMPACT! (Live) Rating* - 0.8

    * TNA Wrestling & Spike announce iMPACT is moving back to Thursday nights.


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    Unopposed Weekly Ratings 2010



    5/10/2010 - WWE RAW Rating - 3.05
    5/13/2010 - TNA iMPACT! (Taped) Rating* - 0.93


    * Impact moves back to Thursday Nights, 9 to 11PM.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    5/17/2010 - WWE RAW Rating* - 3.4
    5/20/2010 - TNA iMPACT! (Taped) Rating - 0.96

    * Commercial Free.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    5/24/2010 - WWE RAW Rating - 3.11
    5/27/2010 - TNA iMPACT! (Taped) Rating - 1.34


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    5/31/2010 - WWE RAW Rating - 3.2
    6/03/2010 - TNA iMPACT! (Taped) Rating - 0.9


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    6/7/2010 - WWE RAW Rating* - 3.1
    6/10/2010 - TNA iMPACT! (Taped) Rating - 1.0

    * First Ever 3 Hour 'Viewer Choice' RAW


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    6/14/2010 - WWE RAW Rating - 3.4
    6/17/2010 - TNA iMPACT! (Taped) Rating - 0.99


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    6/21/2010 - WWE RAW Rating - 3.52
    6/24/2010 - TNA iMPACT! (Taped) Rating - 0.99


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    6/28/2010 - WWE RAW Rating - 3.27
    7/01/2010 - TNA iMPACT! (Taped) Rating - 0.99


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    7/05/2010 - WWE RAW Rating - 3.35
    7/08/2010 - TNA iMPACT! (Taped) Rating - 1.14


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    7/12/2010 - WWE RAW Rating - 3.33
    7/15/2010 - TNA iMPACT! (Taped) Rating - 1.09

    Which brings me to this acceptable truth, that the signing of all the major names have done nothing to improve Ratings. Simply put, TNA is in the exact same position in which they were in at the beginning of this free agent Shopping Spree. The PPV buyrates are even worse, rumored to be somewhere in the 10,000. The fact is, the WWE has nothing of the star value TNA has, in terms of star level. Wrestling wise, of course, The WWE rivals TNA, but when it comes to having star names, TNA absolutely blows the WWE out of the water. I'm sorry, but John Cena, Randy Orton, and Edge on Raw doesn't even match Hogan, Sting, Angle, Jeff Hardy, RVD, and Ric Flair on Impact. One could only assume that by signing the big names, TNA's product and numbers would improve. Sadly, this hasn't been the case, though there is hope for TNA.

    2. The origin of TNA's suffering is Attachment

    Because, you see, TNA's real problem, and why they aren't measuring up to their rivals up in Stamford, can be pointed to one name. One single, insidious, reprehensible name.

    [​IMG]


    Russo!!!!!!!

    Actually, that isn't 100% fair. After all, Russo is part of a booking committee. That said, much of why TNA is floundering is because of the Crash TV booking of Vince Russo. Simply put, his storylines typically have no end in sight to them, and often wander around aimlessly, like a child chasing a butterfly. People have been complaining about his booking for so long, and the sad truth is, without giving the talent enough good storylines to work with, no one will watch. This is the issue with TNA; no one is watching because Vince Russo's storylines make the talent all but ineffective, because his angles are so damn ludicrous. The problem is, Dixie Carter is so attached to Vince Russo, that frankly, it makes the product suffer. Unless TNA purges itself of the curse of Russo, TNA's product will always be stymied.

    3. The cessation of suffering is attainable

    If, and only if, TNA presents the workers that can work great matches, and allow them to go. At the moment, TNA's productr has dramatically shifted from a wrestling show, to one of "sports entertainment show", one in which, as we stated before, no one is watching. I'm not asking Hogan and Flair to work matches, because frankly, that'd be idiotic. However, it's become apparent TNA has shifted the focus of their main event to name value guys who may have lost a step or five in the ring. While AJ Styles and Samoa Joe languish in the mid card or lower, Jeff Hardy and Abyss plod around in the main event, looking like shells of themselves. While the MCMG and Beer Money wrestle great matches and get the loudest pops in the mid card, The EV 2.0 shit is taking up the spotlight. Again, if TNA is going to cease it's suffering, TNA has to everything in their power to push the wrestlers that can put on entertaining match.

    4. The Gradual Path to the Cessation of Suffering

    And that comes with a better product. Big names are a luxury; when you don't have bad storylines and a bad product, no one will watch. TNA needs to overall improve it's product before it even begins to think about having big names. In essence, they've gone the reverse way of what a promotion should be. Instead of creating stars, they've relied on stars of the past, in which the ratings have seen no significant growth. TNA's path to Enlightenment involves not big names, but an improved product. Otherwise, Karma will bite them in the ass, and they will find themselves in a continuing state of suffering
     
    #2
  3. Little Jerry Lawler

    Little Jerry Lawler Sigmund Freud On Ritalin And Roids

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    Just to let you know, I'm going to be in training all week so the only times I'll be able to respond will be in the evening and the morning. I hope that doesn't conflict with your schedule.

    I will be arguing that TNA is not the true example that star power does not create a great company.

    Many have stated that for a wrestling company to be successful in the United States as well as over the world, you need wrestlers who have that charisma and natural ability to entertain the crowd. Vince found his gold mine in Hulk Hogan and the rest is history. Throughout TNA's history, they have built their reputation on having some of the best wrestling in the world and they have tried and been successful at finding big names to make their promotion one of the best.

    TNA (2002-2005): The big stars in TNA were names such as Jeff Jarrett, AJ Styles, Samoa Joe, Christopher Daniels, and America's Most Wanted. They were not stars by the standards maybe me and you go by they were homegrown TNA talent and performed some of the greatest matches in the company's history. TNA's best year was in 2005 when Styles, Joe, and Daniels put on a clinic almost each and every PPV. People began to recognize TNA as a legitimate wrestling company even though they didn't have a Cena or a Batista at the top.

    TNA (2006-2010): With the core already set, TNA looked to bring in established superstars from other promotions to continue to progress. When Christian and Kurt Angle left WWE, TNA quickly signed them and they were successful in bringing star power and recognition and they had great matches to boot. Angle has aruguably meant more to TNA than any other wrestler since his debut because he is a great wrestler but he is also a star. Storylines such as the Main Event Mafia versus The Frontline was a way for the TNA veterans to get a rub from some of the greatest stars in other company's history. Not all has been bad in the Hogan/Bischoff regime. Jeff Hardy, RVD, and Mr. Anderson were brought in because they were big names but why should that be seen as a negative. You still have your core talent who have proven that they can put on a great match when called upon. Styles, Daniels, and Joe are just the Jericho, Benoit, and Angle of TNA to use a comparison. I don't like this whole EV 2.0 or whatever it's called to be honest, but I don't blame Dixie and partners for trying to tap into the ECW fan base or whatever is left. Styles was champion for six or seven months and you have the Motor City Machine Guns and Beer Money have put on great matches so not all is gloom and doom.


    The problem with TNA trying to compete with the WWE is that they didn't try to go toe-to-toe with them when WWE was at its weakest. In the past two years, WWE has been really strong with the high level of matches that have been performed by Cena, Batista, Taker, HBK, Mysterio, and Jericho. The WWE just wasn't that good around 2006 and 2007 and that is when they should have capitalized. You had Styles, Angle, Christian, Samoa Joe, and Sting at your disposal and you strike when the iron is hot. TNA failed to do that and waited until this year and it bombed. I did hate what they did to Styles when he went under Flair's wing but they were trying to make AJ more charismatic and flashy like Ric. WWE was so strong this year that TNA couldn't hold up.

    The Main Event Mafia storyline as I've mentioned earlier was a way for the young talent to get a rub by the veterans. I wanted the MEM to dominate at the beginning even though I didn't like the way they did it but as the angle progressed, the TNA's young talent began to shine. Styles won the championship from Sting and that was the payoff of the storyline. The leader of the MEM, Angle, realized that they had to start putting some of the young guys over and he did just that. Russo has done some good in TNA but I don't believe Dixie has in it her to tell Vince when he is doing something that just won't click with the fans. Until she gets tougher or they find somebody else, you will always get good and bad with Russo.

    As much as it pains me, I praised Joe earlier and now I'm going to have to criticize him. Joe has gotten fatter over the years and has been unprofessional in several cases. I blame TNA a little bit for changing who he is. Samoa Joe's best days was his gimmick of the Samoan Submission Machine and when they made him face, that was the end of him. He's had some good matches here and there, but I don't he can replicate the success he had in 2005.

    Jeff Hardy's last years in the WWE were his best feuding with Hardy and HHH. He showed that he is more than just a spot monkey and has been a decent wrestler. I hate how his drug problems have affected his life but he hasn't been a main focus on TNA as you would think.

    Abyss is a classic example of a wrestler who is good for one thing and that is hardcore matches. They're trying to make him what he was in his early days in TNA, but it just isn't working. I've been and still be advocating for the return of James Mitchell. I can only hope.

    You still have Styles who had a lenghty run in the main event and is now trying to legitimize the Television Title and you have Kurt Angle's quest to win the title starting from the bottom up so to speak. Angle still has the star power and is still the great wrestler he was when he first stepped into TNA. We can argue another day whether his angle is good or bad.

    The EV 2.0 isn't going to last long hopefully and people are recognizing the midcard talent. I can tell the TNA fans aren't interested in the EV storyline so Dixie needs to wake up and realize that.

    They established stars (Styles, Joe, Daniles) who can have great storylines as well as perform and in recent years they have added big names who can do the same tasks. Christian was as big of a star in TNA as he ever was in WWE and I can argue the same thing for Angle. TNA have always had a good product and the big names they're trying to bring in addition are just a luxury. They're still some minor problems to solve but TNA is doing good as the #2 promotion in the country and I have faith that TNA can be great even though at times they haven't shown me.
     
    #3
  4. Tenta

    Tenta The Shark Should've Worked in WCW

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    Oh, trust me, everytime you log on... I'll have a response waiting for you. I guarantee it.



    No, no, you're quite mistaken on your assertion, sir. At least half way. Sure, big name stars are great, when you know how to use them. WCW is a perfect example. When they signed Hulk Hogan, they attempted to live off the nostalgia of the Hogan Era, and tried to trumpet that. The whole show became a vehicle for Hogan's ego, one in which he abused to the highest degree. The television went into the toilet for a good portion of time, until they found a way to utilize Hogan. The numbers didn't lie. His debut at the Bash at the Beach scored a 1.02 Buyrate, which was the highest number since the 1991 Starrcade, I grant you. The next pay per view didn't have Hogan, and drew a .53. The next pay per view, Halloween Havoc, did a .97. A higher number, yes. Keep in mind, in both of these matches Hogan wrestled Ric Flair, a product which everyone really clamored from. The next PPV, which featured the aforementioned Hogan and his buddy, ED Leslie?

    Yeah, that drew a .6. And it would stay no better until WCW learned how to utilize Hogan, with the nWo. My point being simple; history has proven over time that if you offer a good product, centered around stars, you have a successful product. I'd love to see you argue how Hogan has done anything for numbers. the truth is, he fucking hasn't, LJL. They're at the same place they were six months, except they added the albatross like contracts of the "stars". The point has become clear, that the numbers show no one cares just for stars, they want a good product. Honestly, I could really just end my response here, because frankly, you can show nothing to say the stars have done any good for TNA. However...

    And they offered an alternative, a good prodcut, LJL. Now let's see an era that matters.

    Yeah, because moving to Spike, getting Dixie Carter as a benefactor for the company, and having overall a better product didn't help at all :rolleyes:


    Look, match wise, Angle has worked wonders for the company. Sad, because the numbers say otherwise. Sure, you can argue how the numbers went up from a .3, to a 1, but that has more to do with leaving Fox Sports Net, to going to Spike, a more carried and known channel.

    Because they haven't drawn an audience yet?

    Yeah, that's bullshit frankly. The only way this comparison works is by saying they're all good workers. Joe, Styles, and the like aren't half of what Jericho, Benoit and Angle used to mean for the WWE, because they haven't been utilized correctly. They've been pushed away by ther big stars, and have made the title picture filled with more WWE dropouts than... Well, WCW. And again, your claim would be great, if they did anything to turn business around. And, well, they haven't.

    This has nothing to do with the debate. The debate is about whether TNA's newly signed stars are enough to create a company. Perhaps you could provide examples of how the stars actually have done anything to help ratings, buy rates, or even match quality. Not only have the numbers not improved, TNA's overall product has decreased immensely since the beginning of the wave of "new" stars.

    I'll say that the MEM was ok. It was a total rip off of a wCW angle seven years, but still, it was a good angle. That said, it did nothing to increase buy rates for a long term period, and the ratings didn't soar with this angle. Again, the product was bettre, but there was still plenty wrong with the company at this point.

    And as long as that's the case, the product will suffer. Hence, really, you have to conclude as long as Russo is there, the stars have proven the signing of stars do not a wrestling company make.

    So again... Worse product, unhappy talent, worse show, and overall, more proof that stars aren't enough to make a good company.


    You also give the names of wrestlers like Joe, Abyss, and Styles. Mind you, LJL, that is not what this debate is about at all. It's about if TNA has proven that the stars are good enough to create a company. It's your job to argue for Hogan, Flair, and the like, and why they're doing a good job. Not about Abyss and Samoa Joe



    So you're agreeing with me, huh?

    You really not making that great a point, here. Again, TNA signs some names, some stars, and people dislike it. Again, the stars need direction, they need a sense of purpose. It takes more than flashy signings to make a product. Like, say, good matches, and storylines that draw in an audience.

    Again, you even talk about how the product is being shat on by fans. At the end of the day, LJL, you have to prove stars make a successful company. And judging by the numbers and facts, TNA is not growing, and becoming better. The signing of the big names has made the product overall weaker.

    Perhaps you could provide me with a post in which actually has a point? You offered Coco that dignity. You can at least fucking offer it to me
     
    #4
  5. Little Jerry Lawler

    Little Jerry Lawler Sigmund Freud On Ritalin And Roids

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    I'm sorry but I won't be able to finish this debate. Training has gone on longer than expected and with family issues on top of that it will be a long week. It was a good debate while it lasted. Congrats Tenta.
     
    #5
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  6. Phoenix

    Phoenix WZCW's First Triple Crown Champion

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    Clarity of debate: Tenta
    Wonderful opening and kept on target.

    Punctuality: Tenta
    LJL had to back out.

    Informative: Draw
    Despite a short debate, both men brought bits of information that their opponent didn't bring up initially.

    Persuasion: Tenta
    This isn't a score against LJL, but more a default point due to him having to pull out unfortunately.

    Final Score
    Tenta: 4.5
    LJL: 0.5
     
    #6
  7. CH David

    CH David A Jock That Loves Pepsi

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    Clarity: Tenta hammered his point home in his two posts, LJL tried in one, but couldn't.

    Point: Tenta

    Punctuality: LJL backed out unfortunately.

    Point: Tenta

    Informative: Both brought up some good points and were about even with their information.

    Point: Split

    Persuasion: As both brought good info, Tenta was the one that truly worked it to his side. LJL didn't make me believe that he feels this way, which is what you need to do, even if you don't actually believe in your argument.

    Points: Tenta

    CH David scores this Tenta 4.5, Little Jerry Lawler .5
     
    #7
  8. BooCocky

    BooCocky On A Nature walk with Daniel Bryan

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    Sorry, I'm a little late but I'll finish them all tonight. Hopefully.

    I have a hard time rewarding LJL any points because he had to opt out. I know you have no control over what life brings to you but still. You shouldn't join something when you know you aren't going to have time. I reward Tenta with all five points. I believe he was more persuasive, I believe he was clear and concise. He was also punctual unlike ljl you had to opt out. He was also pretty persuasive in his few posts. Therefore I reward tenta with the win.

    Tenta-5
    LJL-0
     
    #8
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  9. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Well, since Little Jerry Lawler bowed out, I'd be remiss if I didn't award all of the points to the man who has decided to keep on keepin' on.

    Final Score
    Tenta - 5
    Little Jerry Lawler - 0
     
    #9
  10. Phoenix

    Phoenix WZCW's First Triple Crown Champion

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    After a complete judge's tally, Tenta is the victor on 19 points to LittleJerryLawler's 1.

    Congratulations and great debating from the both of you!
     
    #10
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