Round 2: Falkon -vs- Mr. Steve

[D-Man]

So far, 2010 for TNA is simply reliving the golden days of WCW and ECW, is there hope for the TNA Originals for the remainder of the year?

This is a second round match in the Debater's League. Falkon is the home debater and gets to choose which side of the debate they will be on and who debates first, but they have 24 hours to make their choice.

This thread is for DEBATERS ONLY and will end on Friday at 2pm EST.

Good luck.​

 

[Viola Moonlight]

My side of the debate will be focusing on negating the topic question, where the TNA Originals don't have hope for the remainder of the year. I would like my opponent to commence the debate first.

Good luck, Mr. Steve.

 

[Mr. Steve]

Good luck to you as well.

I'd say that they will make it. As hard as it is to believe, the whole of TNA does not revolve around Nash and Sting getting some payback on Jarrett, and neither is the ECDu...what, it's EV2.0? Anyway, so far the TNA originals have thrived on the space that is the in between of those two major storylines going on in TNA.

But the Originals still thrive in the company. Take for example.

Fortune​

Right now, they got Styles spearheading the group alongside Flair with the TNA TV title, Beer Money in a feud with the MCMG, and Kazarian in it doesn't hurt things either.

Women's Division​

Yep. Right now, there's the Knockout Tag Titles as well as the KO Championship in the women's division, the X division title. Something to note: all of those titles are being held by TNA originals. Of course, I must concede, RVD carries the world title.

The Relevant Part about this​

Of course, I had to list off the former things in order to prove one of my points: TNA will survive long after this whole ECDub/WCW rehashing comes and goes. Once the dust settles at the end of this year, The guys that put TNA on the map will still be there. Styles, Joe (if/when he comes back) Kaz, MCMG, Beer Money Wolfe, etc. They'll still be there. Even better, some of them are getting a good rub from one of the best around that can work in Ric Flair and his Fortune stable.

So yes, things are still hopeful for the TNA Originals.

 

[Viola Moonlight]

In Chinese Astrology, every new year brings forth what is known as an "Earthly branch", specifically naming the year in dedication to a particularly common animal. According to the tradition, the year of 2010 is known as the year of the "Tiger." The same prospects can be adapted into different areas of the world, such as professional wrestling. Considering the amount of times science has bestowed itself into the industry with terms like WWE Universe, TNA Galaxy and Perry Saturn... I'm sure an astrological aspect wouldn't seem so different. So, by applying the core aspect to the wrestling world, such as TNA, you can name certain years of existence after someone or something that truly dominated that time. The year of 2010, can easily be labeled as the year of (W)(E)CW where all the TNA Originals didn't matter and haven't got a hope in hell for the remainder of the year.

The Pension: TNA Originals got Pushed Aside​

It's hard to argue that some of the greatest home-grown TNA Original talents lie within guys like AJ Styles and Samoa Joe. These two have had many battles over the years and have ascended to the top in different, yet similar paths. Hell, AJ Styles was recently being groomed to lead the charge and become the face of the company... that is, until TNA brought in the old guys from WCW and ECW in 2010. Let's use a case study:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -​

AJ Styles: Late 2009 saw AJ Styles finally win the TNA World Championship. Throughout his tenure, Styles defended the title against some of the biggest stars the company had to offer like Sting and Daniels. About the time Styles was at an all-time high, the new year turned over and guys like Ric Flair were brought into the company. Almost immediately, the company saw fit to partner up Ric Flair with AJ Styles because they didn't see him as someone who could lead the company or could be booked to defend the title cleanly. During his matches in 2010, the focal point of AJ Styles wasn't anything related to him... it was Ric Flair. Flair was the one to pay off the referee and assist him in his title defenses. Then, Rob Van Dam entered the company and challenged him for the championship. So, after AJ defeated a fellow TNA hot commodity at a PPV, on a televised episode of iMPACT! he lost the title. How does one justify allowing someone who hasn't wrestled for any big time promotions for years to take the championship of someone who has been the focal point of a big time promotion for years?

It doesn't stop there. Ric Flair created a stable revolving around him and the old WCW days called Fortune, something very similar to the Four Horsemen. Now, whilst it does feature TNA talents, it hasn't actually pushed these guys to the forefront. I mean, the guy who was formerly a World Champion (the longest reigning) during his time lost to someone of the stature of Jay Lethal, a man who has spent most of his time as a comedic jobber imitating another wrestler... both on PPV and free television. As a result, what has AJ Styles been resorted to? He now is the current Television Champion, the title formerly known as the Global Title which has had it's main defenses on Xplosion, the dark event to iMPACT, if it was defended.

Effectively, you had one of the greatest World Champions in the company's history at the start of the year only to become a jobber to a jobber and win the company's least prestigious championship outside of the KnockOut's Division. All this happened as the company did not trust their home-grown talent to lead the charge and relied on the use of past-their-prime wrestlers from now defunct businesses to keep the ratings for a short period of time. What happens when these guys leave? You've got a lot of work to do in re-building your Original stars to back where they once were... something that will take more than the rest of the year to do. How long did it take AJ to win the TNA World Title initially?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -​

This is one prime example. There are many other guys who have given themselves for the company and have ultimately come up short for their efforts. Where is Samoa Joe, one of the men that have provided the company with excellent matches and feuds to allow the company to expand? He is now suspended indefinitely for a complaint. Yet, the company can hire someone with drug and alcohol problems in Scott Hall and people with bad backstage attitudes in the Nasty Boys.

Bad Business Decisions: It’s been done before​

1) They have become the focal point. As stated above, they have been thrusted into the spotlight in favour of the younger talent who are more than capable of leading the company. The Band won the Tag Team Championships and RVD won the World Title, both from home-grown talents. An entire TNA PPV is centred around an ECW reunion renamed HardCORE Justice. Apparently, it's best if we forget about their own talents and allow those created from other places take over... despite the fact that the WWE have done an ECW re-union before and squeezed everything out of the name before disposing of it. That can be proven by the ratings in the dying days of the WWECW brand.

2) The WWE legally owns the rights to ECW and WCW. Thus, TNA has been forced to change names and copyrighted products of the WWE into something else to allow them to exist. For example, the nWo reunion became "The Band" and the ECW alliance is known as the EV2.0. Now, when making executive business decisions like these, you have to do what's best for the company and can ultimately give something to benefit from. TNA are on a fine line and cannot mention any of the products owned by the WWE. If they do, there is the possibility of the WWE taking legal action, a business with much more money to get better resources for the possible legal proceedings and can provide the court fees if they lose the case 10 times over. For TNA bringing in these guys for a short-term period just to gain a slight increase in the ratings and sales, it's not worth the risk.

If the possibilities become a reality, what happens to the TNA Originals? They won't have a company to work for and are forced to find other work. Even if we remove the hypothetical situations, the company is still willing to risk their necks to bring in people who have theoretically earned enough paychecks over the years to support themselves and are on their last legs (not for the better like Sting) in the wrestling business rather than use their own guys to put on a good show. How could anyone feel that the Originals have any hope if the company is willing to abandon them for the next flash in the pan idea?




Now, for my rebuttals:

I'd say that they will make it.

I say they won't. Great discussion.

so far the TNA originals have thrived on the space that is the in between of those two major storylines going on in TNA.

The "in-betweens" are usually known as fillers. Are you trying to indicate that the Originals are only there to fill in the shows whilst the company focuses on their little project? I'm pretty sure someone of AJ Styles status isn't there just to put on a random match.

Fortune​

Right now, they got Styles spearheading the group alongside Flair with the TNA TV title, Beer Money in a feud with the MCMG, and Kazarian in it doesn't hurt things either.

Essentially, the only way for the Originals to stay relevant in today's TNA society is by banding together and be led by one of the old WCW guys in a stable that was rehashing from the same era. If the company can't utilise the old school wrestling directly by getting the Andersons and the rest of the original Four Horsemen, I guess they'll do it indirectly with talents that will eventually go to waste against the ECW guys.

Women's Division​

Yep. Right now, there's the Knockout Tag Titles as well as the KO Championship in the women's division, the X division title. Something to note: all of those titles are being held by TNA originals.

If you haven't noticed the KO's division has always been TNA Originality. I haven't seen a woman from the old ECW or WCW to come in and dominate the division after being irrelevant for multiple years. They have bred their own talents and made the division into something worthwhile. However, for the most part of the year, the KO's have been pushed aside as well due to outside influences from people stemming of the WCW/ECW area. Hulk Hogan has mentioned that women don't draw a dime and should be a filler. The same women that have headlined iMPACTS! The same women that have shows dedicated to KO's specifically. The same women that have drawn viewers in for being a unique attraction.

In the long run, the KO's have suffered and multiple girls have left with some abominations being brought in (aka Rosie Lottalove). It is going to take a serious overhaul to get them back on track to the level they were in previous years.

Of course, I must concede, RVD carries the world title.

Admitting is the first step, my friend.

TNA will survive long after this whole ECDub/WCW rehashing comes and goes.

Assuming the WWE doesn't take that aforementioned legal action I put forth, then yes.

Once the dust settles at the end of this year, The guys that put TNA on the map will still be there. Styles, Joe (if/when he comes back) Kaz, MCMG, Beer Money Wolfe, etc. They'll still be there. Even better, some of them are getting a good rub from one of the best around that can work in Ric Flair and his Fortune stable.

I'll ignore that you said all of the people you listed will be there despite the fact that you admitted Joe might not be, which is a little contradictory on your part. However, I digress. Yes, they will still be there because those guys will be loyal to their company and at the end of the day, the company will still see these guys as usable if something like this rehashing goes belly-up. But is there hope? What can they do to revitalise the company before the takeover and become the sole focus? Don't forget, these are the same guys that the company has told to take a backseat to, and if need be do the job for, guys were trimmed from another company's fat for performing on such low levels. The main event for the next PPV has been given to one of the biggest botch artists of the century in Sabu, where he will get to compete against the company's champion. This is an opportunity that all of the TNA roster have to do via the way of a 10 Man Ranking System.

 

[Mr. Steve]

In Chinese Astrology, every new year brings forth what is known as an "Earthly branch", specifically naming the year in dedication to a particularly common animal. According to the tradition, the year of 2010 is known as the year of the "Tiger." The same prospects can be adapted into different areas of the world, such as professional wrestling. Considering the amount of times science has bestowed itself into the industry with terms like WWE Universe, TNA Galaxy and Perry Saturn... I'm sure an astrological aspect wouldn't seem so different. So, by applying the core aspect to the wrestling world, such as TNA, you can name certain years of existence after someone or something that truly dominated that time. The year of 2010, can easily be labeled as the year of (W)(E)CW where all the TNA Originals didn't matter and haven't got a hope in hell for the remainder of the year.

What the shit-christ does this have to do with anything?

This is one prime example. There are many other guys who have given themselves for the company and have ultimately come up short for their efforts. Where is Samoa Joe, one of the men that have provided the company with excellent matches and feuds to allow the company to expand? He is now suspended indefinitely for a complaint. Yet, the company can hire someone with drug and alcohol problems in Scott Hall and people with bad backstage attitudes in the Nasty Boys.

You’re off the mark. Hall’s out and The Nasty Boys are probably nowhere near TNA. Oh, and Joe’s complaint was about a match with Hardy, according to the rumors. He felt that Borash gave away the match's ending by counting down from the 30-second mark I think.

As a result, what has AJ Styles been resorted to? He now is the current Television Champion, the title formerly known as the Global Title which has had its main defenses on Xplosion, the dark event to iMPACT, if it was defended.

Smarky comment is Smarky.

Yeah, if he puts over Lethal, and keeps losing to Lethal (thus Lethal gets over and his push is ensured), and wants to prove himself to Flair so he could get back in his graces, and continue to get the rub, only to pay off in him winning a title that the now will start to build up so he could present himself as a heel champion, and now defending a title on every taping of Impact so the group can start to gather some credibility because of that…

2) The WWE legally owns the rights to ECW and WCW. Thus, TNA has been forced to change names and copyrighted products of the WWE into something else to allow them to exist. For example, the nWo reunion became "The Band" and the ECW alliance is known as the EV2.0.

TNA is fully aware about the legal repercussions. They’d be stupid to think that any legal action would be taken for intellectual properties that the ‘E doesn’t own (the band/EV2.0 are intellectual properties of TNA now, regardless of what or where it came from). Why do you think they’re essentially giving ECDUB one last Pay per view? They know that this doesn’t last, and now the next pay per view should, and can be focused on the other storylines, that what? Revolve around the Originals, yes.

The "in-betweens" are usually known as fillers. Are you trying to indicate that the Originals are only there to fill in the shows whilst the company focuses on their little project? I'm pretty sure someone of AJ Styles status isn't there just to put on a random match.

Ah yes…again, he’s there to put over a title, and put over his Fortune stable…what? It’s filled with originals? Yeah, it is. It’s spearheaded by Flair, but you don’t see him squashing the guy.

In the long run, the KO's have suffered and multiple girls have left with some abominations being brought in (aka Rosie Lottalove). It is going to take a serious overhaul to get them back on track to the level they were in previous years.

True, but you’re admitting that to that particular division there’s hope. Which is true, there is still hope for the women’s division specifically. The division is thriving right now, and it can continue to get back to its spot. Hogan will eventually realize that it’s one of the things that got TNA on the map.

 

[Viola Moonlight]

What the shit-christ does this have to do with anything?

It's a little something I use to transition into my debates. Whilst not relevant, it's the opening to my opening statement... and what does "shit-christ" even mean?

Let's stick to the issues:

You’re off the mark. Hall’s out and The Nasty Boys are probably nowhere near TNA. Oh, and Joe’s complaint was about a match with Hardy, according to the rumors. He felt that Borash gave away the match's ending by counting down from the 30-second mark I think.

I'm pretty sure this discussion involves us talking about the year of 2010. If I'm not mistaken, both Scott Hall and the Nasty Boys were brought into the fray during that year, what people would consider apart of the WCW rehashing. They were prominently featured in TNA, mainly in a feud with Team 3D. Now, if you have an old team like 3D used for putting over other talents (as well as training some in Jesse Neal), why would you bring in an even older team like the Nasty Boys to feud with them? And why would you give the championships to a group that is unreliable in the form of Scott Hall? What did he do to prove himself? Didn't the company learn from his first inception into the company that having him wrestle is ultimately a bad decision? If the company is willing to invest their time in someone so unreliable, I wouldn't have any hope for a hard-working guy such as AJ.

And as for Joe, it is something quite minuscule to get an "indefinite suspension" over. There have been guys in other professional wrestling company's that can make a complaint about somebody else and a suitable option has been justified. Look at Rey Mysterio for example. It has been said that he didn't want to give the championship to Dolph Ziggler as he didn't feel he had all the correct tools to hold the title at that moment. So, the WWE listened to one of their respective members of the roster and took the action to change the original plans. Samoa Joe, a respected member of the roster, did the same thing by telling TNA that he didn't want the ending to be as "predictable" as it was. What happens? He gets suspended. Why would you have any hope in a company like TNA if they keep making unfair calls towards the Originals and pander themselves for old guys that can hardly sell?

Smarky comment is Smarky.

Yeah, if he puts over Lethal, and keeps losing to Lethal (thus Lethal gets over and his push is ensured), and wants to prove himself to Flair so he could get back in his graces, and continue to get the rub, only to pay off in him winning a title that the now will start to build up so he could present himself as a heel champion, and now defending a title on every taping of Impact so the group can start to gather some credibility because of that…

Yeah, playing second fiddle to the EV2.0, right? The company has essentially given the highest credibility to the new guys whilst pushing back the Originals. Why couldn't AJ keep the World Title and have RVD win the then Global Championship? Whilst the company is building their stars for the future, they can still use the EV2.0 as a separate attraction. That way the old guys can still perform and do their thing, whilst the TNA roster still stays on track.

Case in point: the 1st ECW One Night Stand. The WWE decided to create a new PPV separate from their regular schedule to feature the old ECW guys in a reunion. They promoted the event through their shows and weren't atop of the company. Was there a ECW guy coming in to take the World Title of someone who has been home-grown? Did they push aside the younger talent so the ECW guys can takeover? No and no. They drew a lot of ratings from the PPV whilst still maintaining the RAW and SD shows as if nothing happened, keeping the balance. ECW was always a side attraction ever since the WWE decided to use it again and it got them good ratings. Why can't TNA do the same?

TNA is fully aware about the legal repercussions. They’d be stupid to think that any legal action would be taken for intellectual properties that the ‘E doesn’t own (the band/EV2.0 are intellectual properties of TNA now, regardless of what or where it came from). Why do you think they’re essentially giving ECDUB one last Pay per view? They know that this doesn’t last, and now the next pay per view should, and can be focused on the other storylines, that what? Revolve around the Originals, yes.

This my entire point summed up in a question. Why would the company trust another group of wrestlers instead of their own? Why do they dedicate an entire PPV and angle that takes up the majority of time for them? It's not just a present thing, it's a recurring option that TNA can make. At any time, they can dispose of their own Original guys in favour of others and give them the time to take the spotlight. It has happened over all the years since Dixie has taken charge. Guys like Rob Van Dam are brought in at the click of a finger and given the championship to run with, essentially pushing Originals like AJ down the card rankings. Mick Foley did it in the past as well when he joined... hell, Taz took over Don West on the commentating tables.

Why would you trust the company and feel hope if you are one of the Originals when you aren't going to get anywhere with these randoms popping up at the Executive's table just so the company can spike the ratings? Why not build your own talent, create intricate storylines and book excellent matches to get the ratings? That's how TNA got there in the first place. What has the inception of all the newer guys like the EV2.0 done for ratings? Nothing notable. Why hope for a company that hasn't got hope for you?

Ah yes…again, he’s there to put over a title, and put over his Fortune stable…what? It’s filled with originals? Yeah, it is. It’s spearheaded by Flair, but you don’t see him squashing the guy.

Similar issues happened with RVD and the EV2.0. He's got the title and he's got his buddies filled with ECW guys. Difference is, which one is dominating the what section of the card?

Originals = lower card
EV2.0. = higher card

AJ didn't get squashed, he has been ranked and classed lower on the scale of significance in TNA. Someone like Samoa Joe is easily expendable. What does that do for the other TNA Originals? If they don't watch themselves down to a T, they get reprimanded?

True, but you’re admitting that to that particular division there’s hope. Which is true, there is still hope for the women’s division specifically. The division is thriving right now, and it can continue to get back to its spot. Hogan will eventually realize that it’s one of the things that got TNA on the map.

Rome wasn't built in a day. Same thing applies for KO division getting overhauled before the year runs out.

Excuse me if I'm wrong, but have you noticed that the feud between Sarita and Taylor has been developing on Xplosion rather than iMPACT? One major part of the KO division isn't good enough to feature on the main show, despite both women (mainly the former) have done a lot to draw and keep people watching TNA. I don't remember having good profile feuds like these relegated to the undercard. What have the KO Tag Team Championships been doing for the whole of 2010? How many times was that defended? And because of one of the WCW suggesting that bringing in Bubba The Love Sponge into TNA was a good idea, one of the most prominent KO's to enter the division, Awesome Kong, isn't with TNA anymore. It has taken the company from that point to now in finally bringing back Hamada to iMPACT! for a proper showcase.

If you're saying that Hogan is the one who decides whether TNA does this or that, then that just proves my case further. They trust the WCW/ECW guys more than their own talents. How hopeful is that for the Originals?

 

[Mr. Steve]

I'm pretty sure this discussion involves us talking about the year of 2010. If I'm not mistaken, both Scott Hall and the Nasty Boys were brought into the fray during that year, what people would consider apart of the WCW rehashing. They were prominently featured in TNA, mainly in a feud with Team 3D. Now, if you have an old team like 3D used for putting over other talents (as well as training some in Jesse Neal), why would you bring in an even older team like the Nasty Boys to feud with them? And why would you give the championships to a group that is unreliable in the form of Scott Hall? What did he do to prove himself? Didn't the company learn from his first inception into the company that having him wrestle is ultimately a bad decision? If the company is willing to invest their time in someone so unreliable, I wouldn't have any hope for a hard-working guy such as AJ.

Here's my question: Is AJ out for coming in and drink on the job? No. Even bigger question: Will hall be back after doing what he did? I bet not.

And as for Joe, it is something quite minuscule to get an "indefinite suspension" over. There have been guys in other professional wrestling company's that can make a complaint about somebody else and a suitable option has been justified. Look at Rey Mysterio for example. It has been said that he didn't want to give the championship to Dolph Ziggler as he didn't feel he had all the correct tools to hold the title at that moment. So, the WWE listened to one of their respective members of the roster and took the action to change the original plans. Samoa Joe, a respected member of the roster, did the same thing by telling TNA that he didn't want the ending to be as "predictable" as it was. What happens? He gets suspended. Why would you have any hope in a company like TNA if they keep making unfair calls towards the Originals and pander themselves for old guys that can hardly sell?

In that particular case, we're comparing "match to storyline". Yes, it's equally unfair to both Dolph (you know he needed that title back then instead of now). Granted, Joe did get the shaft by telling them about the match being spoiled, and he got raked over the coals, but what's to say he doesn't come back next week or the week after that?

Whilst the company is building their stars for the future, they can still use the EV2.0 as a separate attraction. That way the old guys can still perform and do their thing, whilst the TNA roster still stays on track.

This is it! Here's my point: they are doing that. You didn't see EV2.0 mixing with the rest of the roster. For that matter, you didn't see the Wolfpac angle blending in with the roster. Yes there's that, but as you said, it's a separate attraction.

They drew a lot of ratings from the PPV whilst still maintaining the RAW and SD shows as if nothing happened, keeping the balance. ECW was always a side attraction ever since the WWE decided to use it again and it got them good ratings. Why can't TNA do the same?

True, but what happened after: ECW grew too large. The year after that, they started to hit up and invade the shows, right? Also, I think the ECW show was created around that time.

Point being is this: TNA doesn't have that luxury. They're pushing envelopes with Impact and Xplosion They need to place as much as their home talent as they can. They made Xplosion for that, for christ's sake! This isn't permanent and you know it. Carter wisens up due to hard knocks, and it's over. It's either that, or the ship sinks.

Similar issues happened with RVD and the EV2.0. He's got the title and he's got his buddies filled with ECW guys. Difference is, which one is dominating the what section of the card?

Originals = lower card
EV2.0. = higher card

Arguable, and you know it.EV2.0 isn't the whole of the show, it's the originals carrying it. it's MCMG and Fortune doing the fucking work there.

AJ didn't get squashed, he has been ranked and classed lower on the scale of significance in TNA. Someone like Samoa Joe is easily expendable. What does that do for the other TNA Originals? If they don't watch themselves down to a T, they get reprimanded?

Still arguable. AJ's the face and you know it. What was Terry doing with the title that was noticeable? Not. one. goddamn. thing. AJ's bringing that title up little by little, yet if he sits at the bottom of the card with it, it's a fucking squash and a career tar and feather. Hell, Jericho went through that as well when he won the I.C. when he came back.

Excuse me if I'm wrong, but have you noticed that the feud between Sarita and Taylor has been developing on Xplosion rather than iMPACT? One major part of the KO division isn't good enough to feature on the main show, despite both women (mainly the former) have done a lot to draw and keep people watching TNA.

Yes, but haven't you stopped to think that for some reason, that was meant to draw some ratings to Xplosion? That they need types of matches and feuds there to hype up the show, and thus, you get viewers.

I don't remember having good profile feuds like these relegated to the undercard.

And is that bad somehow? It should make their card look solid, if anything

What have the KO Tag Team Championships been doing for the whole of 2010?

Being used for feuds. What else?

How many times was that defended?

How many times was the WWE tag team championship defended this whole year? Whether or not the championship is being defended is irrelevant. Besides It's been two months since the title vacated and the TBP won it.

And because of one of the WCW suggesting that bringing in Bubba The Love Sponge into TNA was a good idea, one of the most prominent KO's to enter the division, Awesome Kong, isn't with TNA anymore. It has taken the company from that point to now in finally bringing back Hamada to iMPACT! for a proper showcase.

And that somehow is supposed to stigmatize them from losing hope that they'll be overrun by the old guys. What, the supposed "flash in the pan" is really hurting them from having more elbow room? Due to one fuck up by BTLS (who's gone as a reprisal related to that)?

 

[Viola Moonlight]

Here's my question: Is AJ out for coming in and drink on the job? No. Even bigger question: Will hall be back after doing what he did? I bet not.

Bullshit. This is a quote from Wikipedia about the implications surrounding Scott Hall:

Spoiler

Eric Bischoff on TNA's following show announced that Hall had left the company for the time being but did state he would be back in the future. It is thought Hall could be back by the end of the year and in time for TNA's UK Tour which hits the road in January. It is not known if Scott will be re-joining "The Band.

Link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Hall#Personal_life

You can't argue with this evidence. It's the WCW guys reigning supreme over the originals. If the company can't learn from the first two times they signed Hall to the roster and are openly expressing to get him for a third, where is the hope for the Originals?

In that particular case, we're comparing "match to storyline". Yes, it's equally unfair to both Dolph (you know he needed that title back then instead of now). Granted, Joe did get the shaft by telling them about the match being spoiled, and he got raked over the coals, but what's to say he doesn't come back next week or the week after that?

Err... because he is suspended indefinitely. TNA gets to choose the amount of time, which has been rumoured to be about 30 days. Usually, when a company issues out a "suspension," that person must serve his sentence. For your predictions of saying he'll be back quite soon... highly unlikely.

This is it! Here's my point: they are doing that. You didn't see EV2.0 mixing with the rest of the roster. For that matter, you didn't see the Wolfpac angle blending in with the roster. Yes there's that, but as you said, it's a separate attraction.

How can a separate attraction feature the main championship? Better still, why is the separate attraction headlining an entire PPV? If we take a look at the entire card, you can see that guys like AJ Styles aren't even on there. So, they aren't interacting... they are being pushed aside completely!

True, but what happened after: ECW grew too large. The year after that, they started to hit up and invade the shows, right? Also, I think the ECW show was created around that time.

Point being is this: TNA doesn't have that luxury. They're pushing envelopes with Impact and Xplosion They need to place as much as their home talent as they can. They made Xplosion for that, for christ's sake! This isn't permanent and you know it. Carter wisens up due to hard knocks, and it's over. It's either that, or the ship sinks.

I don't understand if this section of your argument is supposed to attempt to aid or sabotage my side of the debate... especially that bold sentence.

Arguable, and you know it.EV2.0 isn't the whole of the show, it's the originals carrying it. it's MCMG and Fortune doing the fucking work there.

Yes, MCMG and Fortune did a good job promoting this month's PPV and putting on a stellar match at HardCORE Justice.

Still arguable. AJ's the face and you know it. What was Terry doing with the title that was noticeable? Not. one. goddamn. thing. AJ's bringing that title up little by little, yet if he sits at the bottom of the card with it, it's a fucking squash and a career tar and feather. Hell, Jericho went through that as well when he won the I.C. when he came back.

Since when did you become Zack Ryder? I swear that's like the 3rd time I've seen you insert that "You know it" line.

If AJ was the face, why isn't he topping the company like John Cena is? How come TNA can bring in all these talents and make them the feature of the company instead of showcasing Styles? Face it, Hulk Hogan and Eric Bischoff became the faces of the company because of how huge the signing was. AJ took second place. What happened with EV 2.0? They are taking the fifteen minutes of fame whilst pushing AJ aside.

Yes, but haven't you stopped to think that for some reason, that was meant to draw some ratings to Xplosion? That they need types of matches and feuds there to hype up the show, and thus, you get viewers.

Fair enough if that involved some of the undercarders and trying to get something going of interest... but girls who have been the centre of the KO division?

And is that bad somehow? It should make their card look solid, if anything

TNA's roster should make all their cards look quite solid. Apparently these looks deceive quite a lot considering iMPACT! draws about a 1.0 rating on average. In comparison to say... SmackDown!, it's on a channel that isn't readily available, has one of it's main drawing stars out and is filled with mid-carders, yet they do a lot more than iMPACT.

Being used for feuds. What else?

What feuds? The Kong/Bubba one?

How many times was the WWE tag team championship defended this whole year? Whether or not the championship is being defended is irrelevant. Besides It's been two months since the title vacated and the TBP won it.

If you haven't noticed, they've had the Tag Team Champions prominently featured in the WWE for quite a while with virtually every PPV holding a title match... if not, the champions were involved in a feud or other big match.

Let's not get side-tracked here, Stevie. Before the inception of the WCW guys, the KO's division was thriving. Due to the words of Hogan, they haven't been featured as much. Why would they lower the division that has given TNA some of its highest rated segments? I tell you why, to make room for Hogan's buddies and wrestlers who cannot grasp the fact that their old promotion is dead... and the company is willing to invest in them. What will they do? If given some TLC and good booking, the KO's can do just as much as these guys.

And that somehow is supposed to stigmatize them from losing hope that they'll be overrun by the old guys. What, the supposed "flash in the pan" is really hurting them from having more elbow room? Due to one fuck up by BTLS (who's gone as a reprisal related to that)?

Look at the big picture. They'd let Awesome Kong walk away from the company rather than BTLS. They don't mind suspending Joe, but they have their sights set on Scott Hall working with the company. It's a complete joke to the TNA Originals and they shouldn't believe in a company that has now become pretty fickle.

 

[Mr. Steve]

Err... because he is suspended indefinitely. TNA gets to choose the amount of time, which has been rumoured to be about 30 days. Usually, when a company issues out a "suspension," that person must serve his sentence. For your predictions of saying he'll be back quite soon... highly unlikely.

So it's either the rumors its indefinite or its 30 days? care to clarify? As for that, It's pretty much becomes a crap shoot until he either shows up or leaves.

How can a separate attraction feature the main championship? Better still, why is the separate attraction headlining an entire PPV? If we take a look at the entire card, you can see that guys like AJ Styles aren't even on there. So, they aren't interacting... they are being pushed aside completely!

And what, you expect to fit both EV2.0 and the other storylines in one pay per view? that makes no sense! The worst case scenario would be to just chunk together both things. It's the lesser evil to keep EV2.0 in a separate pay per veiw and the rest of the roster separate, even if they're doing rehashing of WCW storylines. Which incidentally, one of them is used with TNA originals. Besides, MCMG and Fortune DID NOT NEED A SPOT AT A PPV WITH ECW GUYS IN IT!!

Yes, MCMG and Fortune did a good job promoting this month's PPV and putting on a stellar match at HardCORE Justice.

See the caps part.

If AJ was the face, why isn't he topping the company like John Cena is? How come TNA can bring in all these talents and make them the feature of the company instead of showcasing Styles? Face it, Hulk Hogan and Eric Bischoff became the faces of the company because of how huge the signing was. AJ took second place. What happened with EV 2.0? They are taking the fifteen minutes of fame whilst pushing AJ aside.

Oh, of course. AJ isn't showcased at all. He isn't given a match, or a title, or a group to co-run. And yes, I am going there. Styles has to carry Fortune. Just because they didn't promote HARDcore Justice (it feels like rape when I say that name) doesn't mean they're not going to promote the next pay per view. Or the IMPACT of this week, or the one after. Same as the MCMG.

Fair enough if that involved some of the undercarders and trying to get something going of interest... but girls who have been the centre of the KO division?

Yes...what, you can't expect to attract people to watch Explosion if they don't see what made IMPACT! you need them to draw in viewers.

[qute]Before the inception of the WCW guys, the KO's division was thriving. Due to the words of Hogan, they haven't been featured as much. Why would they lower the division that has given TNA some of its highest rated segments? I tell you why, to make room for Hogan's buddies and wrestlers who cannot grasp the fact that their old promotion is dead... and the company is willing to invest in them. What will they do? If given some TLC and good booking, the KO's can do just as much as these guys.[/quote]

Oh but yes, the KO's can do as much as these guys. Problem is, you got no space for them, so you build the card from the bottom up. Besides, good booking is hardly associated with TNA since the history of ever. Short of early MEM and AJ's chase of the title, they're hit or miss. Of course, I say this because hey: they've been through it. Remember Angle, Christian, Gail, Bookah, Steiner, etc.? Those guys were sitting at the tippy top, but the originals still thrived. They still put on a show since the fact of the matter is, you can have AJ be the face of IMPACT, and he still is. Which is one of the reasons they watch Fortune ( as strained the role is for him , but thats another debate altogether).

I'm just saying, they've been through this kind of thing before in the MEM (none of them were originals at the beginning save for Sting). Carter has always brought in people from the outside for flash in the pan ideas. yet the Originals were still there, still putting shows on, and giving people a reason to watch impact.

 

[Viola Moonlight]

So it's either the rumors its indefinite or its 30 days? care to clarify? As for that, It's pretty much becomes a crap shoot until he either shows up or leaves.

Ah, it has been rumoured that it could go for a period of 30 days, but the suspension is considered to be indefinite. As for the "crap shoot until he either shows up or leaves," wouldn't that constitute for someone doubting about his hope for the company? This is a man who has put everything he has into TNA, including an excellent 5-star match against AJ Styles & Christopher Daniels, and still gets cast aside. Someone like Randy Orton can have a hissy fit in the ring on LIVE TELEVISION and break kayfabe in a sense to still go on and get a World Title opportunity yet Joe does it backstage and gets told to leave temporarily?

And what, you expect to fit both EV2.0 and the other storylines in one pay per view? that makes no sense! The worst case scenario would be to just chunk together both things. It's the lesser evil to keep EV2.0 in a separate pay per veiw and the rest of the roster separate, even if they're doing rehashing of WCW storylines. Which incidentally, one of them is used with TNA originals. Besides, MCMG and Fortune DID NOT NEED A SPOT AT A PPV WITH ECW GUYS IN IT!!

Let's not get carried away here. I seem to remember the Band winning the tag team championships earlier on in the year, full of WCW guys. Another thing too was that they never lost the championships, they got stripped due to the situations of Syxx-Pac (first) and Scott Hall (second), leaving only Kevin Nash. The Originals were used as back-ups to step in and take control of the division. And don't you even dare bringing Eric Young into the argument. After what happened to Pac, they decided to bring EY in as the third member and defend it under the Freebird rule... yet again using an Original as a back-up.

As for the PPV, the ECW guys were put at the forefront of the entire thing and flipped off the Originals. Why do they even need another PPV to send them off? They've had multiple PPV's and tribute matches that this wasn't even needed. What was it for? Bumping the buyrates and ratings a little bit? How is that going to happen when they only had two matches promoted for the event? Why can't TNA be TNA? Why do they have to be WCW and ECW? They've got some solid talents... why push them aside when they can be the main event? I'm sure the guys have noticed this too and after all these times, some people have seem the light and left. If wrestlers like Kong and Daniels can go... what hope do the others have?

Oh, of course. AJ isn't showcased at all. He isn't given a match, or a title, or a group to co-run. And yes, I am going there. Styles has to carry Fortune. Just because they didn't promote HARDcore Justice (it feels like rape when I say that name) doesn't mean they're not going to promote the next pay per view. Or the IMPACT of this week, or the one after. Same as the MCMG.

I'll concede on how horrible HardCORE Justice sounds, and how the referenced ECW.

But that brings me back to my original point. These are risks that TNA are willing to take for guys that are only there for a short period, yet they put the Originals on the back-burner... regardless of whether there is a stable full of Originals or not, they aren't the fore-runners promoting the product. They introduced Hulk Hogan and put him as the face for a while. They are using the ECW guys to get ratings... back in the day, they drew numbers. Now, they aren't doing anything much to bump the ratings. What makes the company think they can't get the ratings with their own home-grown talent?

That has to diminish the Original's hope if the company they work for doesn't 110% back them as front-runners.

Oh but yes, the KO's can do as much as these guys. Problem is, you got no space for them, so you build the card from the bottom up. Besides, good booking is hardly associated with TNA since the history of ever. Short of early MEM and AJ's chase of the title, they're hit or miss. Of course, I say this because hey: they've been through it. Remember Angle, Christian, Gail, Bookah, Steiner, etc.? Those guys were sitting at the tippy top, but the originals still thrived. They still put on a show since the fact of the matter is, you can have AJ be the face of IMPACT, and he still is. Which is one of the reasons they watch Fortune ( as strained the role is for him , but thats another debate altogether).

I'm just saying, they've been through this kind of thing before in the MEM (none of them were originals at the beginning save for Sting). Carter has always brought in people from the outside for flash in the pan ideas. yet the Originals were still there, still putting shows on, and giving people a reason to watch impact.

Er... Gail was an original. She was apart of the KO's inception (titles and all).

None of these have been to the effect that the entire WCW and ECW rehashing has done. MEM involved pretty much all the roster of Originals where guys like AJ and Joe got their avenge against the group. Guys like EY created the World Elite and got some time given to them. In 2010, it's a different story all together. The ECDub's get an entire PPV, an exclusive TNA PPV that has been featured for many years, to work with. Hogan took the spotlight of the company as they thought him merely being there would take in viewers, instead of relying on establishing and promoting their own talents.

Just because the Originals are still in the fray doesn't mean the company has hope for them to take the company to a new level. They would rather rely on others to do the job for them... if the company hasn't got hope, why should the Originals?

 

[Viola Moonlight]

Mr. Steve and I have agreed via PM that we should make our closing arguments now so both of us can attempt to gain maximum points for having a good debate structure (which I think goes under punctuality and clarity of debate). Since, I posted second in the debate and the latest post was done by me (thus coming full circle), I feel it shouldn't matter who posts their closing arguments first.

Thanks for the debate, Stevie.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Closing Argument​

The year of 2010 hasn't been designed for the TNA Originals to succeed... it was just a period of TNA rehashing the glory days of the old promotions WCW and ECW. Dixie Carter decided it was the correct option by investing her and the company's time to bring them in, highlighting them over their own home-grown talents. The old guys were seemingly given it all, from Hogan becoming the face of the company to the EV 2.0 getting a TNA PPV all to themselves, despite not doing anything other than marginal for the ratings/buyrates (respectively). This was all done whilst the Originals had to suffer with some going as far as quitting the company, or even the company suspending them. These are the guys that created TNA into what it is today and they get the worse end of the stick.

The funny thing is, were not even close to finishing up the year. With all these events taking place, how does one attempt to understand the type of hope the TNA Originals have for the rest of the year? I don't even think the Originals could answer that question for you, because of what TNA has done to them... it has eliminated the word "hope" from their vocabulary.

 

[CH David]

Clarity: Both had solid openers, but FalKon's was more appealing to the eyes and a little more explained.

Point: FalKon

Punctuality: Steven was on time for most of the debate, but his lack of a close, or even a rebuttal on FalKon cost him this point.

Point: FalKon

Informative: From my point of view, I didn't see too much information on either side of the argument. I saw more of a subjective argument.

Point: Split

Persuasion: This is actually one of those that I've been unsure of the entire time I've been judging this. However, after reading this over a third time, I'm giving this to Steven for something he said in his opener. Essentially, once the dust settles the TNA Originals will be there to lead the charge. I can't help but see how that isn't true. The older guys are there for name recognition, and are old, and the originals will be there to lead the charge.

Points: Mr. Steve

CH David scores this FalKon 2.5, Mr. Steve 2.5.

 

[Phoenix]

Clarity of debate: Falkon
Falkon had a wonderful opening and was very good at keeping things clean and easy to read rather than quoting line by line. He kept a good strong understanding of the debate throughout.

Punctuality: Falkon
Much like CH said, lack of Mr. Steve's conclusion hurts him here.

Informative: Draw
Again, like CH, initial information was used but nothing new was brought in. Interesting facts brought up though to say the least.

Persuasion: Draw
I have to split this one here, I felt Falkon took lead early on but Steve managed to claw his way back but yet there wasn't a full killing blow for Steve to finalise control while Falkon stood firm. This debate has lead me thinking anything could happen with TNA and there's no true outcome to decide really as both men seem to point out. I award a draw here.

Final Score
Falkon: 3.5
Mr. Steve: 1.5

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

Clarity of debate: Falkon
Falkon had a wonderful opening and was very good at keeping things clean and easy to read rather than quoting line by line. He kept a good strong understanding of the debate throughout.

Punctuality: Falkon
Much like CH said, lack of Mr. Steve's conclusion hurts him here.

Informative: Draw
Again, like CH, initial information was used but nothing new was brought in. Interesting facts brought up though to say the least.

Persuasion: Draw
I have to split this one here, I felt Falkon took lead early on but Steve managed to claw his way back but yet there wasn't a full killing blow for Steve to finalise control while Falkon stood firm. This debate has lead me thinking anything could happen with TNA and there's no true outcome to decide really as both men seem to point out. I award a draw here.

Final Score
Falkon: 3.5
Mr. Steve: 1.5

Phoenix pretty much said everything I wanted to say. However, I am awarding Steve the informative point because he was able to take his information and present it in the most concise manner possible.


Persuasion - Draw
Clarity and Punctuality - FalKon
Informative - Steve

 

[D-Man]

Clarity: Falkon
Falkon just impresses me as each debate goes on with how clear their posts are. Just an enjoyable read every time.

Punctuality: Falkon
Poor Steve... that last post killed him.

Informative: Split
Both parties really gave lots of info and brought a lot to the table.

Persuasion: Split
I can't decide here. The subject was wide open and both parties really brought their "A" games. Another enjoyable debate that Steve and Falkon were involved in. Definitely two of the better debaters in this year's tourney.

Final Score
Falkon: 3.5
Mr. Steve: 1.5

 

[D-Man]

After a complete judge's tally, Falkon is the victor with 12.5 points to Mr. Steve's 7.5.

Congratulations and great debating from the both of you!