Round 1: jmt225 -vs- Tenta

Discussion in 'Debater's League 2010' started by D-Man, Aug 1, 2010.

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  1. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Which is the better Last Man Standing match? Chris Jericho vs. Triple H (Fully Loaded 00) or John Cena vs. Edge (Backlash 09)?

    This is a first round match in the Debater's League. jmt225 is the home debater and gets to choose which side of the debate he will be on and who debates first, but he has 24 hours to make his choice.

    This thread is for DEBATERS ONLY and will end on Friday at 2pm EST.

    Good luck.​
     
    #1
  2. jmt225

    jmt225 Global Moderator

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    I choose to debate that Chris Jericho vs. Triple H is a better "Last Man Standing" match than John Cena's match against Edge at Backlash 2009. I will go first with this post.

    ...................................................................​

    I firmly believe that the better the feud, the better the matches will be. There is no doubt that back in 2000, during the WWF's hottest period in history, that Chris Jericho vs. HHH was one of the best feuds that year. It all started with one of the most exciting, compelling angles in the history of Monday Night Raw, when during the opening bout of the night, Chris Jericho pinned then WWF Champion HHH to win the title. Of course, as any wrestling fan should remember... moments after the win, the decision was overturned due to referee Earl Hebner making a fast count. It was easily one of the greatest starts to a new feud we'll ever see.

    That was the beginning, and when the feud would get started up again a couple of months later, it resulted in some of the funniest, most entertaining promos in the history of the WWF, and now, ten years later, they're still remembered. I'm talking about Jericho's constant insults towards HHH's on-screen wife, Stephanie McMahon. Those promos easily built this feud, and by the time Last Man Standing match rolled around at Fully Loaded, nobody could wait to see what was going to happen. And what happened was without a doubt the single greatest Last Man Standing match in WWF history.

    However, before I talk about either match, let's take a look at the lead-up to Edge vs. Cena. Edge vs. Cena peaked in 2006/2007, and for some odd reason, WWE decided to do it again one more time. Why? I don't know, because we saw nothing new from these two. It was the basic Edge, "I hate you and your fanbase, Cena, blah blah blah." It was nothing we hadn't seen already.

    Now, let's get to the matches themselves...

    First, I'll start off with Cena vs. Edge.

    This wasn't the worst match between these two, but it wasn't anywhere near the best, either. Basically, all they did was take an old ECW tradition and make it cartoonish.

    In the original ECW, a lot of matches ended up with the wrestlers taking their battle to the outside and brawling all across the arena. Now, I'm not saying ECW invented this, but they certainly perfected it.

    The Backlash match is only remembered because of the brawl over the arena. WWE RARELY has these types of brawls, which is the ONLY reason this match is memorable. But I'm not impressed with it, because I've already seen it a thousand times in ECW, which is why I brought ECW up.

    So, not only have I seen Edge vs. Cena two dozen times by this point, but I've see the "Brawl all over the arena" two dozen times as well. There was nothing new, or refreshing about this match.

    I also HATED the ending. Big Show coming down and choke slamming Cena through the light looked so fake, and at the end of the day.. the only reason this match went down was to progress another lame Cena vs. Big Show feud, which was another feud we had already seen a bunch of times by that point.

    That's another point I would like to make before addressing why the HHH/Jericho match was so good. Cena vs. Edge did nothing for either character. It was just brawl with a cartoony, over-the-top ending that only happened to set-up the next feud between Show and Cena. Jericho vs. HHH, however, catapulted Chris Jericho into main event status. That match alone did that for Jericho, who since then has gone on to have a tremendous career in WWE. Without this feud/match taking place, Jericho is not the Superstar he is today. I firmly believe that.

    Anyways, on to the Jericho vs. HHH bout... it was easily the 2000 Match of the Year. And even if you don't believe that, then there's still no way you could ever list 5 matches from that year over. Cena vs. Edge, however, pssh...

    Undertaker v. Shawn Michaels (Wrestlemani)
    Chris Jericho v. Rey Mysterio (The Bash and Extreme Rules)
    CM Punk v. Jeff Hardy (Summerslam)
    Jack Swagger vs Christian (WWECW)
    John Morrison vs. Evan Bourne (WWECW)

    All these matches were better than Cena vs. Edge at Backlash, and that's not including TNA, the indys or Japan. Had I included other promotions I would have been able to come up with at least ten more matches, easily. But I kept it strictly WWE, and those were the matches I could think of off the top of my head that I thought were better than Cena/Edge. Also keep in mind that 2009 was a pretty shit year too, whereas 2000 was the hottest year in wrestling history numbers wise.

    But yeah... back to the HHH/Jericho match itself. It was a non-stop, back-and-forth match of epic proportions. This match saw everything and it told a tremendous story of the young Lion trying to take down King of the Jungle and his lioness. The match was so intense and filled with hatred from both sides. Every time they got their hands on one another they looked to finish the match. Chairs, stairs, monitors, tables, and a sledgehammer were all used in this one. There were so many times you thought the match was over. The drama was just off the charts. And when the ending finally came, you were left breathless from what you just witnessed.

    The HHH/Jericho match was filled with intensity and drama; that is what big time matches are supposed to have, and Edge vs. Cena just did not have that. We had already seen it too many times from those two by that point; there was nothing left for those two to do that could ever blow us away or even pull us into their feud to begin with. Jericho vs. HHH was fresh and exciting, between two wrestlers in their absolute prime during the hottest period in professional wrestling history. It blows the Edge/Cena match out of the water, and to me...that's indisputable.
     
    #2
  3. Tenta

    Tenta The Shark Should've Worked in WCW

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    First and foremost, I’d like to wish the best of luck to JMT in this match. I’ve said it before, but it’s never easy when you get a Global Moderator your first match. That said, it gets a hell of a lot easier when you take a little initiative. These matches are both wonderful examples of how intense, excruciating, and suspenseful a Last Man Standing Match can be. That said, I knew very well exactly what JMT was going to choose, and I knew it was going to be the Jericho-Triple H match from 2000. Just the way you roll, JMT. That said, should you choose to post first, which you just may, I wouldn't be shocked, I'd like to first put down some guidelines for my opinion, and then attack yours. So, ya chose HHH-Jericho, huh? It’s cool, I like the match myself. That said, it isn’t nearly as good as the John Cena-Edge match at Backlash, and here’s a couple great reasons why:

    1. It was for a World Title

    Look, I shouldn’t have to say this, but a match becomes infinitely more interesting, and consequentially better, when there’s a World Title involved. It means, frankly, that this is going to decide the best wrestler within the company. True, there are now two world champions, but nevertheless, it decides who is going to be the face of your programming, and of that show. Chris Jericho and Triple H may have been a great feud, but John Cena and Edge warred for three years over a world title. You wanna know the focal point of just about every Triple H-Chris Jericho match? It’s Stephanie McMahon Helmsley, and quite frankly, that brings the feud down a couple notches in intrigue. Think about it; this whole thing between Jericho and Trips started over some nasty names, which I believe included “filthy dirty, brutal, bottom feeding ho”. Of course, you know, that’s not per verbatim. Hell, even the main event at Wrestlemania 18, what was that over, JMT? That’s right, it was over Triple H and Stephanie divorcing, and Chris Jericho was really a pawn in the matter. While the feud made for bitter feelings, it can’t nearly have the same amount of interest as a World Heavyweight Title Match. Hell, if you look at it, Triple H and Chris Jericho didn’t even main event the card, did they? No, that belonged to the Chris Benoit and Rock match. Edge and John Cena were the main event on a card that saw Randy Orton win the World Title. The fact that it was a World Heavyweight Title match makes it a better match, because it’s more interesting, and more of an attraction.

    2. John and Edge actually achieved what they were supposed to

    Look, the point of the Edge/Cena match was, frankly, something we all knew had to happen. Some way, a World Title had to find its way over to Smackdown. Of course, that didn’t make the match less predictable; most people weren’t sure that Edge was going to get the nod in a match that’s supposed to blow off the feud (more on that later). I know we’re getting to the brink of speculation here, but I think it’s not too far of a reach to say the intention of the Y2J-Triple H was to put over Jericho as a main event performer, while not having to give him the win. During the match, Ross put over Jericho’s toughness to the tenth degree, but commenting on how tough Jericho was, and how a lesser man would have given up. The intent was clear; this was the match to cement Jericho’s position in the main event. Well, let’s see what good old Super Liger did after this intense, brutal match.

    Summerslam: In the mid card, losing to Chris Benoit, again, just like he did at Wrestlemania, meaning his spot hadn’t changed at all.

    Wait a minute, I’m not done.

    Unforgiven 2000: He was then locked in a nail-biting feud with the wonderful X-Pac. Seriously, X-Pac was great in 1993, and either than that, he’s never been a real name guy. There’s always the infamous X-Pac heat, in which it was known absolutely no one wanted to see him on TV. If that isn’t a demotion, I don’t know what is.

    No Mercy 2000: The X-Pac-Jericho feud went from sputtering to sputtering and kicking up mud as the match took place in a steel cage. But yay, Jericho gets the win over the jobbber hasn’t meant anything to wrestling in two years.

    Survivor Series: Feuding with Kane. Pardon me if I can’t contain my excitement. This was the fucking feud over coffee.

    Armageddon: An even better Last Man Standing match against Kane than his one against Triple H. And wow, the right person won that match (More on that later).

    Royal Rumble: Well, snap me down. He’s facing Chris Benoit in the mid card, again.

    Look, I can go on to the King of the Ring, where Jericho finally gets his shot in the main event. The point is, the match ultimately failed in building Jericho to the next level. You can argue a hindsight argument, but the truth is, Jericho didn’t get the main event rub, and the match failed in its purpose. Cena and Jericho, on the other hand, absolutely succeeded in having a wonderful match, which served a purpose, and capped off a feud that needed a conclusion. And speaking of conclusions.

    3. The Edge and Cena match was at the right time in their feud: the blow off. Jericho and Triple H’s match wasn’t.

    Just like the Loser Leaves Town match that has gone the way of the Dodo, JMT, Last Man Standing Matches are meant to blow off the feud. Jericho and Triple H? Eh, not so much. They’d feud on and off again. Yes, it was the end to a segment of a feud, but merely a segment of it. They’d have plenty more matches, including the dud at Wrestlemania 18. Cena and Edge haven’t had a feud since this blow off, and probably won’t, because they had the rightful ending to their feud, and now the victor has been decided. Jericho and HHH would fight for months afterward, rendering their Last Man Standing Match horribly insignificant. And speaking of victors

    4. The Edge and Cena match had the right man going over

    This may come off like smarky bitching, but it’s true; Jericho needed that win more than Triple H did. This could have been the match to propel Jericho to superstardom, but instead, they had Triple H going over, even though he wouldn’t have needed. Triple H was the main event name who wasn’t in contention for the title, because he’d already had his feud for the belt. Jericho had already paid his dues in the company, and it was time to see if this match could make a main eventer out of him. Some will say this was a slow build. I’d say with an Era with Steve Austin gone, Mick Foley gone, and The Undertaker not being nearly the star he used to be, why would you take the chance, when you have a proven star you could already have main eventing. In Edge-Cena, Edge needed the win, and Cena needed to get away from the title. The match succeeded on both accounts, and made it so Cena could fight The Big Show after he was done with Edge. Edge would be allowed to go to Smackdown and be the top heel and work against Jeff Hardy, the biggest star of 2009, until CM Punk was ready to cash in his MiTB, and provide a new fresh heel to the main event scene. See? One good ending leads to so much good television. One bad ending leaves you fighting with Syxx-Pac for a few months on PPV.

    5. Edge and Cena had more “Holy Shit” moments

    Let’s be honest; the great thing about LMS matches are the holy shit moments. They’re what keep the crowd into what’s normally the longest match on the card. Cena and Edge simple had more. From throwing the stairs out from the ring onto Edge, to FU’ing him off the top rope, and even into the fucking crowd, Cena was kept strong, and put some good offense. Hell, even the bulldog from the stairs to the arena was pretty sick. Edge sure had his own, as well, from the DDT on the entrance steel, to the Con-Chair-To. And of course, you have your end Holy Shit moment, with show chokeslamming Cena into the huge ass light. That was a moment still etched in memory. I mean, come on, look at this ending

    [youtube]BpTbgIlz-5I&feature=related[/youtube]​

    Yeah, that was a shit load cooler than anything Jericho and Triple H did, so don’t try denying that.

    Look, both are great matches, but for the reasons listed, you have to go with Edge/Cena. It was more important, it actually achieved it’s end goal, and, well, it was spottastic. I mean that in the best way possible. Last Man Standing Matches can have a story, and both matches did, but they need huge spots to keep the audience into it. And Cena and Edge outclassed Jericho and Triple H.
     
    #3
  4. Tenta

    Tenta The Shark Should've Worked in WCW

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    Well, you did indeed fuck up my grand vision. Just a teensy bit, but you took the first post, something I can't say I predicted. I could think of which match you did, but surely not the first post. Who the fuck chooses that?!

    Sigh. You masochist, you. We're gonna have a grand old time, this weekend

    Yeah... JMT, we're past the point of synopsis. You know, just as well as I do, that adding synopsis for the plot is really just extra work. Not sure why you put yourself to that. For that matter, anything involving you telling the judges about the match, for their sake and ours, I'm going to throw out. We must assume the judges to be wise, shouldn't we? After all, that is why they're judges.

    Though, you bring a point I'd like to take on; which was better, The Triple H-Jericho feud, or the Cena-Edge feud. Personally, I'm not sure how it can;t be Cena-Edge. It's what cemented the Ultimate Oppurtunist character, which is regularly seen as one of the biggest stars in WWE at this point. Jericho-Trips had some good moments, and I'll admit to marking out loud for Jericho winning the title. That said, this feud was always one sided, and you know that to be true. Face facts; Jericho was always like a one legged man in an ass kicking contest against Triple H. What keeps a rivalry good and fresh is the unpredictability of who comes out on top. Edge and Cena had that; Triple H and Jericho, unfortunately, did not.

    I know the promos you're talking about. I cite them on my earlier response. Anyway, sure, it was funny, but how did it elevate Jericho, in any way? It showed he could get some chuckles, but that's about it.

    Yeah, really sucks with that whole brand draft thing, doesn't it?

    Don't act so naive, JMT, you know exactly why. Edge was needed on Smackdown, because frankly, they were in dire need of stars. This was done in a time period where WWE needed to freshen up the title picture, really, so the reason they tacked it on in 2009 is because of that. Shouldn't bring down the value of the feud, and really, it added the punctuation to the feud that carried the WWE through the years you mentioned. It'd be like Jericho and Trips wrestling seven months later in Wrestlemania. That'd never happen, right?



    Whoa, Whoa, Whoa.

    Does Tupelo not mean anything to you, JMT? Come on, you know better than that. The Tupelo Concession Brawl; this type of thing had been done far earlier than anything ECW had done. It wasn't so much copying ECW, as it was copying a gimmick that had been done before, even in the 70s. As for cartoonish, I'm sorry, you consider getting chokeslammed into a search light cartoonish? Yeah, bullshit, man.

    And done before that in Memphis. God, man, I know we both like ECW, but they didn't create everything, man. Furthermore, you may have seen it, but plenty of others didn't. What you're getting into right now is complete personal preference.

    Again, you didn't have my post before I put it down, but it was done for another reason, to get Cena the fuck away from a Title Belt. That's why he'd feud with Miz right after this, man. John Cena needed to be kept away from the belt for a little while, until Summerslam, where WWE could collect the big pay day. The WWE didn't have Show do it because they were enamored with a Show-Cena feud, they did it because they needed Cena away from the belt. It's fucking brilliant, man.

    Pardon me a second:

    [YOUTUBE]WxU0GymProw&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]​

    Sorry, had to get that out of my system. Sure, he was pushed to the Main event.... Eleven Months Later. You can sell me all you want about this showing off Jericho's toughness, but we both know he didn't get a true shot in the main event until a year later, and even then, it was a pretty short stay. Nice try, but this match did nothing to cement him as a main eventer. As a matter of fact, I knew that was going to be your argument, and anticipated that, hence the whole showing you the PPVS, and where he worked at. Not doing much to show you aren't predictable, good chap.

    Ok, let me get this straight. You want me to believe that, just because there were better matches in 2009, which caused this one to stick out less because of these admittedly great matches, that I should believe that the 2000 Matchup was better? Right. Look, the WWE had some good to great matches at this point, but never that many fantastic matches. In comparison, I could put up

    Wrestlemania 2000 Ladder Match
    TLC Ladder Match
    Chris Benoit VS. The Rock, on the same damn card as Jericho-Trips
    Cactus Jack VS. Triple H, No Way Out
    The Street Fight at the Rumble

    All of which I could argue were better matches. Plus, I'm not even adding ECW, where RVD, Tajiri, Super Crazy, Steve Corino, Jerry Lynn, etc were tearing down the houses. Simply put, you're arguing preferences again, and I can find matches in 2000 that make the LMS Match between Jericho and HHH pale in comparison

    Uh-huh, how'd that young lion do again? Oh, that's right, he'd go off fighting the King's drunk Hyena friend for two months. Great times for that Young Lion, eh?


    Not as much as Edge/Cena frankly. I was stunned by what those two went through to finish the other one off. Both of these competitors told a story of men who's hatred for one another wouldn't allow them to give in to the count, just because of how much winning meant to them. And the fact that The World Heavyweight Title was on the line made it a far more important feud than Jericho making fun of Steph's funbags.

    I'd argue that, in an era in which there needed to be new stars to be made, this feud, and match, failed to do so. The wrong person went over, the build was good, but not great, because it revolved around Stephanie's honor, and how dare Jericho besmirch it. Edge and Cena was done, and needed in order to tie up a loose end from 2007, when Edge was called to work on the show that needed superstars. It was the perfect way to end this saga of a feud, and gave us a conclusive victor.
     
    #4
  5. jmt225

    jmt225 Global Moderator

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    Completely irrelevant. Just because there's a title on the line does not give a match an edge over one that doesn't have belt up for grabs. More often than not, there's always at least one undercard match that ends up being better than the main event, where there's a belt on the line.

    Besides, the way WWE has flip-flopped the Titles are so much since 2006, title matches really don't mean much these days.

    Which was to begin the Cena vs. Big Show feud as I said. What's the big accomplishment there?

    Completely false.

    Jericho vs. HHH at Fully Loaded was the blow-off feud. The ONLY reason they feuded again a year and a half later was because HHH got legitimately injured in a tag match against Jericho, so when HHH was able to return, the most logical thing to do was match him against the person who put him out all that time.

    Besides, by the time they were to meet again in a serious feud, both were completely different characters. It wasn't a carry over from their Fully Loaded match.

    Once again, completely false.

    Listen, I do not like HHH at all, but in the year 2000, he was the best wrestler in America at that point. He had a TREMENDOUS year, and it was important for him to remain on top, especially since this whole partnership with Stephanie had just started only a few months before and they were by this point the most over heels on the show.

    Furthermore, they needed to start building towards HHH vs. Kurt Angle after Fully Loaded, and that feud wouldn't have meant as much with HHH losing to Jericho, after Jericho made a fool out of both HHH and Step week after week leading up to the match.

    As far as Edge vs. Cena... yeah, the right person won, but it only had to do with the brand split needing two champions. That was it. It didn't progress any real storylines or make one wrestler come out looking better from the match. Jericho vs. HHH is completely different. Both guys in the HHH/Jericho match came out looking absolutely superb.

    Sorry, but I'll take storytelling with extreme violence over random "Holy Shit" spots while two morons drag each other over the arena any day of the week.

    No it wasn't. It was fake and over-the-top.

    Also, don't you think it's pathetic that the most memorable spot in a match comes from someone who wasn't even participating in it? I certainly do.

    No, it's perfectly logical to believe that better feuds = better matches. The better the feud, the better of story you can tell in a match, especially in America. That's merely a fact.

    The only thing memorable from the Cena/Edge feud was Edge cashing in his Money in the Bank contract and Edge-Lita celebrating the next night with the sex thing. Oh, and the TLC match, which was by far and away the best match in the feud (though still not better than HHH vs. Jericho at Fully Loaded ;) ).

    But yeah... there was nothing to enjoy about that feud. Edge did typical heel tactics, and Cena did typical baybface reactions to those tactics. It was filled with over-the-top promos and unfunny segments. Not really that worth wild, man.

    Also, for a World Title feud, they weren't even the main focus of the show. DX was the main focus of Raw throughout most of their feud.

    No, it showed that he was one of the funniest wrestlers on the roster. If that wasn't the case than they still wouldn't be remembered and recited today, ten years later.

    Whatever excuses you have, Tenta, it was still the same old shit we had already seen, and it only happened so they could start yet another Cena/Big Show feud. Edge had no direction other than to go to Smackdown as Champion. What did he do once that happened? Oh, that's right, job to Jeff Hardy and then start a tag team with Chris Jericho. Yeah, this all happened just because Edge and Cena feuded once more. :icon_rolleyes:

    Nice try at a jab here to prove an already ridiculous point, but you're math is way off. Jericho and HHH didn't have that Wrestlemania match until about 20 months after the Fully Loaded match. And like I said, by the time that match came about, they were two completely different characters. Shit, Stephanie was on Jericho's side this time around. What was so different about Cena vs. Edge? They were the exact same as they were when they first started feuding (except Lita was gone).

    I didn't say anything about ECW starting the brawling across the arena; they just made it more popular, and I saw more matches like that in ECW than any other company.

    Besides, this has nothing to do with the topic. I only brought it up to show that what Edge and Cena did that night was nothing new or original. People just liked it because WWE didn't do it often; however, it doesn't impress a fan such as myself because I had already seen it a bunch of times before. You can call that personal preference all you'd like, but the fact of the matter is that it does take away from a match when you're basically repeating a formula that's been done so many times before.

    Yes. It was over-the-top. It would have worked if Cena missed a few weeks and/or had terrible burns over his body, but that wasn't the case, was it?

    You know what it actually reminds me of? Wile E. Coyote. Cena got blown up, but yet was able to come right back and try and get revenge. Like I said... cartoony.

    Did you not see where I said:

    "Now, I'm not saying ECW invented this, but they certainly perfected it."

    ?

    But it's not personal preference; it's a fact that this type of match has happened plenty of times before.

    If it's so "brilliant," as you put it, then why didn't WWE's numbers come up during this time? Weren't they consistently racking up a rousing 3.3 around this point? Yeah, real brilliant, Tenta. :icon_rolleyes:

    If WWE was handling their most popular Superstar "brilliantly," then their numbers would reflect that.

    But it was this match/feud that WWE could look back on and say, "We can trust giving Jericho this spot right now after what he did against HHH back in the summer of 2000." Seriously, without that, I don't think Jericho is proven by the time he receives his main event push.

    Moreover, the only reason he didn't receive a push sooner was because there was other stuff to be done in the World Title picture. Back then WWE actually had long term plans. They didn't throw everything together at the last second like they've done since basically the brand extension.

    No, I'm saying that since the overall wrestling in WWE was LOADS better in 2000 than it was in 2009, and that since Jericho/HHH Last Man Standing match is one of the most remembered from that year, says a lot about it.

    Spot fests. Fun, but not great matches.

    Then how come the HHH/Jericho match is more often brought up whenever mentioning Fully Loaded 2000? Ahh, that's right, because it was the better, more memorable match.

    The Street Fight at the Rumble you can make a case for, but the Fully Loaded match blows the HITC match at No Way Out out of the water.

    And all those arguments (aside from the Street Fight) would be complete bullshit. ;)

    It's not preference, Tenta; it's fact that the year 2000 had a much better product and much better wrestling than the year 2009 in WWE. And it's a fact that regardless of that, Jericho vs. HHH at Fully Loaded is one of the most popular matches from that year, whereas Cena vs. Edge at Backlash didn't even get a Match of the Year Nomination here at WZ during the Wrestling End of the Year Awards.

    It was over-the-top nonsense to appeal to a younger audience, which is why I call it cartoony. HHH vs. Jericho was more raw and intense.

    So a belt that gets tossed around like a hot potato means more to you than somebody constantly insulting and humiliating your wife every single week in front of millions of people watching? Damn, Tenta, I will sorry for your future wife, man.

    How is that even remotely the case? It skyrocketed Jericho into a serious contender (which he would last over ten years), and progressed the HHH/Steph saga, which of course then led to HHH vs. Angle after the Jericho feud was over, and that was the feud that showed that Angle had a great comedy character within him, thus making him an even more popular wrestler than he already was.

    As I explained, that is certainly not the case. The match made Jericho into a serious contender in the fans eyes, and it kept HHH and Stephanie's heat in tact, so they could go on to have that feud with Angle.

    Fans loved it. I mean, literally, more millions and millions of fans witnessed and loved that feud more so than Edge vs. Cena. Millions and millions.

    No it was not, Tenta. How was the feud resolved, if that was the end of it? How? Big Show ended that match, not Edge.

    The feud should have ended at Unforgiven 2007, bottom line. That was the perfect send-off match. If they were to meet again some time down the line, fine, but to restart the entire feud once more, when both characters are EXACTLY the same, it was flat out boring and redundant.
     
    #5
  6. Tenta

    Tenta The Shark Should've Worked in WCW

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    Are there better matches on the card? Perhaps, but that doesn't mean that they're any less important. Say what you will, but Jericho-Trips ultimately became a throw away match. You're going to say it blew off a feud, and I disagree, but through history, matches that have been for titles have been more important than those with non-titles. If Jericho-Triple H was so damn important, why didn't it finish off the card, JMT?


    You know, sometimes I really do wonder if you read the whole argument. Does this not ring any bells?

    Say what you will, but getting the belt off John Cena was important, no, necessary at this point. It gave Cena something to do with the mid card, and eventually led Edge back to SD, where he feuded with Jeff Hardy.
    Completely false.

    Oh, I'm sorry, I was just rephrasing it the way you meant to put it. Again, you're knocking Edge and Cena for having this match to blow off the feud, and rightfully do so, but you're defending the WWE basically doing the same thing with Trips and Jericho? Right.

    But it was the two same guys working against each other, something you chide Cena and Edge for later in the debate again.

    Bullshit. Half the reason he got so much heat, frankly, was because of his thing with Stephanie McMahon. McMahon got him that heat, period, in an era in which people absolutely hated that woman. Hell, what was the storyline built around, JMT? Oh yeah, that's right, Jericho hating Stephanie. Not so much about Y2J and Triple H, but Y2J and Stephanie, really. Look, Triple H didn't need the win. He had three months in which he demolished the WWE Roster, and took on every name. He didn't even the lose the match to lose his title, Vince McMahon did the honors. I highly doubt that losing that contest would have done that much to his credibility, and what's more, he could have gone over Angle, which in fact he did anyway. Jericho wasn't doing much of anything, and after this match, was fed right back to the mid card. He needed that win to cement himself as a main eventer. And Triple H just didn't give it to him.


    And Edge and Cena didn't? Part of the reason this match was so fucking great was because it took everything possible to keep them down. It was literally a case of throwing everything at each other, until Show came in and did his thing. While Jericho came off as tough, but a clean loser, Cena came off as a man who got robbed, and Edge came off as an oppurtunist. Characters, meet your quota.

    Oh, and if Jericho looked so great, why was he stuck in the mid card immediately after this match? Right, he was needed in the mid card :rolleyes:

    There was s tory, you just refuse to acknowledge it. The story is of two men who hate one another, who want to put the other one out of commission, and despite their best efforts, the other man won't give up, out of sheer hatred. Again, plenty of story, but because it's beyond Attitude Era, it can't be good, right? :rolleyes:

    Right... Would you say Hogan was participating in the Six Man Tag at Bash at the Beach in 1996? He was a member of Hall and Nash's team, but didn't actually wrestle, did he? Do i consider it pathetic he performed the most memorable moment? Fuck no.

    Maybe I'm over-exaggerating, but that's basically what you're saying, JMT.

    Except it really wasn't. It just happened in an era of better overall product, so you allow your nostalgic feelings to blur your judgement. Quite typical, really.



    Bullshit. It carried the WWE during lean times, and again, didn't have the benefit of an overall better product. You may not like it, and I expected you wouldn't, but the thing is, you're so biased towards the Attitude Era, it really isn't funny.

    An objectional fan, who knows better, will know Edge/Cena was better than Triple H/Jericho.

    Yeah, because Triple H loves to put himself over at the expense of others. See: Fully Loaded 2000. Oh wait...

    And this all got him how far in the WWE? Exactly, it wasn't until 2009 he started to perform his best shit. When he got away from all that goofy, downright unnecessary stuff.

    I'll admit, Edge didn't do much, he was more of a transition champion. But to get there, and to Punk/Hardy, which even you marked out to, you had to get through this, and this was the gateway that led to it. Plain and simple, without this feud, we probably don't have Edge/Hardy/Punk's saga, which we never got to see Edge's ultimate part in, because he got injured. I think he would have meant more had he not gotten injured.

    This feeling that everything needs to change... Don't see where you get it from. You have two over characters, who are at their best, and having one last match to blow things off. The only real difference between Triple H and Jericho was that they were playing heels/faces differently. That's the only thing; Jericho was still the brash loudmouth, Triple H was still the cerebral assasin. The only thing that changed was the face/heel alignment, otherwise it was the exact same characters.


    No, you clearly don't get it. The Tupelo Brawls were really more of a, as you'd probably put it, "cartoonish" thing.

    Well, thanks for pulling the "I'm an ECW Mark, so I'm better than all of you" card. Sure, you may have not liked it, but it wasn't like the WWE was catering to you. They have their own audience, with different standards, who probably loved it. Say what you will, but the crowd went nuts when Cena FU'ed Edge into the crowd. Combined, that was probably the biggest pop of these two matches, period.

    I'm sorry... You're expecting realism in wrestling? Yeah, get back to me when you find how that goes for you. It's wrestling, and seriously, get over some of the otherwise insignificant shit.

    Straws, JMT, straws. You've almost reached them.


    Fine, I'll go back to the 80s, and tell folks, "Hey, don't do this match! Edge and Cena need it later!"

    Seriously, what do you want me to do? So what LMS matches have been done before? And for the record, no, it wasn't like everyone of them, not nearly like Triple H's and Jericho's were. At the least, Edge and Cena had innovative spots. I'm pretty sure this is how the talk over how this match was gonna go went like this.

    "Well, we need a chair spot"

    "Ooh, yeah, and tables, totally need that, too."

    "And while we're at it, we can do that spot where we hit each with weapons at the same time. No one's gonna remember that was done a year ago by Rock and Mick"

    "Oh, good call. Hey Hunter, think I can go over on this one. I could use it."

    "Pfft. Keep dreaming, kid."

    See my point? All of the cliches were hit by Triple H and Jericho before, too. You just, you know, have to gloss over that for your debate.


    Right, I'm sure that was in their mind when Chris Jericho was then pushed way down the card after his KotR match that next year. Let's face it, Paul Heyman had an agenda to put over "His boys" Chris Benoit and Jericho, and that was the only reason Jericho even sniffed the main event. I mean, let's be honest; before Paul, he was jobbing to Benoit. After Paul... He's wrestling for the World Title?

    Right. There were no long term plans as you'd like us to believe. Just the belief Jericho didn't belong in the main event


    Yeah, I don't buy that. TV matches were better, but otherwise, PPV matches were pretty damn equal.

    Well, no shit, man, but it was fucking revolutionary for the time, and the most remembered matches of the 2000 Year. It won the 2000 MOTY from PWI.

    Then how come the HHH/Jericho match is more often brought up whenever mentioning Fully Loaded 2000? Ahh, that's right, because it was the better, more memorable match.


    You seem to discredit all of these matches, for some bullshit reasons and such, so I’ll just make your job plenty simpler and just give you:

    Rock VS Triple H, Iron Man Match
    The Armageddon Hell in a Cell
    Benoit VS. Jericho, Backlash

    All of which are either better matches, or more memorable. Say what you will, but all of the matches I mentioned before, and these ones, stick out to fans more than Jericho-Trips


    Right. How dare Edge and Cena displease the fans of a Wrestling Forum? Look, in case you haven't realized, this is a pretty smarky forum, of which few people are going to give Cena his just due. You really think I care about their opinion? I'll take the word of PWI, or the Wrestling Observer, who did nominate it for MOTY candidacy, as well as the sources who say this was one of the best PPV matches of 2009. Going all smarky shows absolutely nothing, JMT.

    If by raw and intense, you mean absolutely overrated, and did nothing for Chris Jericho or Triple H's career, I would totally agree with you.


    The Trips/Steph argument I'll take. It did progress that story, which to me was all about the McMahons keeping each other on television, because they love the attention. Elevated Jericho? It took Heyman coming on the booking committee for Jericho to get a legitimate shot at the main event. Otherwise, he was stuck at the mid card, with the mid card belt, in mid card matches, against mid card workers. Some main event wrestler there :rolleyes:


    Different era, you're comparing apples to oranges, and being in a better era does not a better match make.

    Edge won is the point. The feud was resolved, because they have yet to meet each other, and at least in the eyes of the fans, Edge was the better man, and won the war.

    Yeah, again, I wouldn't buy that you'd give any credit to a post Attitude ERA WWE. Look, say what you will, but you didn't even talk that much about the actual matches, except for calling it "unrealistic". News flash, JMT; it's the wrestling business, and if you really want realism, I suggest a good shrink is in order.
     
    #6
  7. Tenta

    Tenta The Shark Should've Worked in WCW

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    You know... I'm aware that it's JMT's turn to go. Don't get me wrong, I can see that, and I'll keep this brief. JMT, you can choose to either ignore this if you'd like, or tack it on to another post. But frankly, something really pisses me off, and I need to get it off my chest, badly. This may cost me the "Emotion" point, which is really a bullshit point anyway, but I don't care. You want to know what I'm passionate about? I'm a man who believes that when you look at wrestling, you have to have an objective standpoint to everything you see. You don't have to love everything, but certainly keep an open mind to all products. If you don't like something, that's personally ok, but when you try to present your beliefs as stated fact and observance, that's where I get extremely pissed off. I'll admit that it's a debate, and that your job is to make the other side look, at least implicitly, worse than yours. That said, I'm willing to go out of my way, and have done so in this debate already, in conceding the following points.

    1. I have conceded the overall product of the Attitude Era was better than overall product of the era in which we're involved in now.

    2. I have also conceded that Triple H-Chris Jericho is a great match, and that even though I find to not be as good as John Cena-Edge, that it still has merit of being a fantastic match.

    3. Consequentially, I've also stated that the feud between Jericho and Triple H was something I liked. Do I think it helped Jericho get to the main event nearly as much as you do? Well, I got about eleven months worth of PPV Events where Jericho could be found in the mid card, so obviously, no I don't. That said, I did find the feud entertaining, and did enjoy the nature of it.

    That said, it was at this point, where I read this quote I'm about to offer, when I realized there was absolutely no way I was going to get an honest, objectionable standpoint from JMT:

    Now, I'm going to say, as well, that I'm sure JMT finds this opinion to be both honest and unbiased. JMT, the reason I could prepare a response, even before you could even come with the first fucking post, was simple; you are the same, predictable internet smark who offers a viewpoint of someone who longs for the days past that, frankly, are not coming back. You cite your fanhood to ECW many times through both your posts, as if that's a credential to being a somewhat better fan than I am. JMT, what you fail to realize is that for every bit of a historian buff you are to professional wrestling, I absolutely match you.

    Case in Point: You cite the fight in the audience as a "cartoonish" element of the match, and cite your ECW fanhood to say such a thing. JMT, I'm not sure if you're aware, but The ECW fan, who still holds on to his copy of Barely Legal as he sleeps, like a stuffed pillow? The WWE is no longer gearing its television to that audience, JMT, and holding the Edge/Cena matchup to the perspective of an ECW fan is downright innocuous. You're an old school buff, and remember the Tupelo Concession Stand Brawl well, I assume. So, if you don't mind checking to your memory, was the Edge/Cena brawl more similar to the Memphis interpretation on the matter, or more akin to ECW? Again, we have the case of fan that can't look past his glory days, and acknowledge the good of something that is not built around his era.

    Some other things you've proven, to me, you aren't looking at this debate with an objectionable standpoint.

    Your Contention that this made Chris Jericho a main event name

    For all the reasons I cited earlier. Again, we're talking about an era in which Steve Austin was absent from the picture until November, Mick Foley was no longer an active wrestler, The Undertaker's star power had widely diminished, and Kane was doing fuck all in the mid card. If the WWE had really succeeded in making Chris Jericho a main event name, then why did it take him eleven months to compete in the main event again? Simple, because this match did not succeed in pushing him as a main event, as you would like us to believe. As a matter of fact, he went right back to jobbing to Chris Benoit, just like he'd been doing at the beginning of the year.

    Your assertion that the lower ratings fall on the shoulders of Edge-Cena

    Is utter shit as well. Listen fella, if anything, John Cena and Edge were working to get the WWE out of the hole Triple H and co. dug the company into from 2002-2004. That, friendo, was when the ratings began to slip dramatically. If anything, Cena and Edge proved themselves to be consistent draws, and keep the numbers steady, in the wake of the demolishing job done The Brand Extension Draft, Triple H's ego, and Chris Benoit's double murder suicide. Yes, I suppose you can argue the Benoit situation happened after Edge-Cena had their real feud, but it could have easily hindered the potential for their match at Backlash. Edge and Cena were not to blame for the fall in numbers, that came years before Edge and Cena were legitimate main event names.

    That Triple H and Chris Jericho didn't rely on clichés

    Right, because hitting each other with a weapon at the same time was not a cliché before Jericho and Trips did it. Or, how about the oh so dramatic double count, in which the tension rises to see who will get to his feet first for the win. Yeah, that wasn't a cliché, as well. Or how about the heel becoming incensed when the face gets up from his finisher, and the heel can’t believe it? Yeah, Triple H-Jericho featured as many clichés, if not more clichés, than Cena/Edge ever did.

    I can go on, and trust me, I will, we're only into Tuesday. I'm not asking you to debate with no passion, because frankly, that's what makes you good. What I am asking you to do is, for the sake of argument, at least have somewhat of an impartial showing to this match. Your markiness is showing like a fat girl sitting down's buttcrack. And frankly, it's not a good look. Otherwise, you can take a good hint from my good friend Jon Stewart, and....

    [youtube]W2YK7pADmWU[/youtube]
     
    #7
  8. jmt225

    jmt225 Global Moderator

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    Yeah, but not throughout RECENT history, and the Edge/Cena match is only a little over a year old.

    Plus, we're not arguing which match is more important, we're arguing which match is better, so that's a moot point anyway.

    You know what match got the most time on that show? Yep, you guessed it... Chris Jericho vs. HHH. So that alone should tell you just how "important" this match was... it was given more time than any other match on the card, including the last match, which was a World Title match as you already know.

    Besides, just because something isn't the last match on a show doesn't take away its importance or quality. What was the best, most important match at Wrestlemania 25: HHH vs. Randy Orton (the last match, for the WWE Championship) or Shawn Michaels vs. The Undertaker?

    Just because there's a logical reasoning to something, Tenta, that doesn't make the feud/match more intriguing. The fact of the matter is, an already played-out, boring feud led to yet another played-out, boring feud. Did it make sense? Sure it did, but they still could have gone another way and gave us something that was actually fresh and entertaining.

    That makes no sense, Tenta. I'm not knocking Cena/Edge because they had a "blow off" match; I'm knocking the fact that WWE rehashed a feud that was well over with and that no one wanted to see again.

    Like I said in my last post, if this were their blow-off feud to end it all... then man, what a shitty ending to let someone from the outside come in and take all the heat, instead of giving the feud resolving finish.

    But they're different characters, Tenta... what do you not get about that? Had Cena turned heel and Edge babyface, then it wouldn't be such a drag to see them feud again, because it would be from a completely different perspective from the characters and audience.

    And Lita (and Vicki Guerrero later on) got Edge all his heat. Heat is heat though; doesn't matter where it comes from. As long as its there, it adds to the feuds/matches, and the fact of the matter is, no wrestler on the roster in 2000, the hottest year in pro wrestling history, had more heat than HHH and Stephanie McMahon. Nobody.

    Not really. The feud all started on that Raw where Jericho beat HHH. That's where it all started, man. And when the feud started back up a couple of months later, Jericho started taking pop shots at HHH's wife, to get under HHH's skin.

    Dude, like I told you before, back then WWE was actually planning ahead of time. The HHH/Jericho feud was to see if Jericho could be depended on as a main event caliber wrestler; however, once it was done with, WWE had other plans for HHH and the World Title scene that didn't involve Jericho, so it would have made no sense to let Jericho beat HHH and then have HHH feud against Angle and have World Title matches in the process.

    No, they didn't. This match did nothing for their characters. They were the same before it, and the same after it.

    The match was a cartoony spot fest, Tenta. That's what it was. There was no blood; just two guys walking around beating each other up with gimmicks. It did absolutely nothing for either character. As I said... they were the same before and the same after, and they're basically still the same today, over a year later, still drawing the same pathetic numbers for WWE.

    Also, how do you figure Jericho lost cleanly? Stephanie interfered countless times in the match, man. That is far from a clean win for HHH.

    Because that was the plan. They wanted to build Jericho up more before putting him in the World Title picture. That's absolutely the best way to build someone up and you know it. Put mid-carder against main-eventer, mid-carder loses but looks like a warrior, and then have mid-carder dominate the mid-card until it's time to bring him up to the main event. Textbook 101 in professional wrestling, Tenta.

    Okay, let's say you're right... what a shitty ending to that story, man. What if you were watching The Dark Knight and the whole movie we're watching Batman vs. Joker, and when Batman is about to put Joker away, Bane shows up and kills Batman. How would you feel about the ending to that story, Tenta?

    There have been plenty of feuds I've enjoyed since the Attitude Era. Don't make assumptions like that; makes your already weak argument even weaker.

    So, basically, you're comparing one of, if not THE, biggest moments in pro wrestling history to Edge vs. Cena at Backlash 2009? Excuse me for a second.....

    :lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:

    Seriously Tenta, how are those two even remotely the same? Hogan was apart of that feud the entire time, we just didn't know it until the leg drop, and then the nWo feud against WCW continued from there. Cena/Edge/Big Show is completely different story.

    Once again, terrible assumptions. From 2002 to this point, there are PLENTY of feuds and matches that I dug more than anything from the WWF's Attitude Era. Edge vs. Cena just isn't one of them, sorry.

    Explain to me what I've ever said that would show I'm "biased" towards the Attitude Era? You can't do it. The thing is, you have to resort to comments like that because you know I'm disproving every single point you bring up. But it's not going to help you, Tenta. People will be able to see who's right and who's wrong here, and who brings up the better points.

    And you cite ME as having personal preference in this debate? Give me a break, dude.

    I agree with you here, but Fully Loaded is not a good example where HHH shouldn't have gone over and did. The right man one that night, as I've explained already plenty of times.

    Again, PERSONAL PREFERENCE, eh Tenta? See how I can throw that right back at you?

    But anyway, Jericho's best work is far from his recent shit. He was great as Lionheart, he was great as Y2J, and everything else he's done. When Chris Jericho gets inducted into the WWE Hall of Fame, you will see more highlights from his Y2J period than any other. Guaranteed.

    Dude, that makes no sense. So you're saying that there's absolutely no way Punk and Hardy could have feuded over the belt if Edge wasn't the one who Hardy had to beat to make it happen? Ridiculous point, man.

    But they're the exact same characters, saying the exact same promos, and having the exact same matches. What's good about redundancy, man? Nothing, is what.

    Which is a HUGE difference.

    You forgot to add that Jericho had Stephanie on his side, and that the fans HATED Chris Jericho and LOVED HHH. Do you not see how much of a difference that makes, in feuds AND matches?

    But it was still innovative at the time, correct?

    Explain how I did that, Tenta? All I said was that not much is going to interest me if I've already seen it before, and seen it done BETTER. How is that acting like an ECW mark in the least bit?

    Yeah, WWE was catering to an audience that is very young, and also to an audience that didn't even have half as much to them as WWE had when they were catering to when Jericho and HHH had their feud.

    So I guess it's terrible as a fan to have standards, huh Tenta? Sorry if I bitch whenever Hornswoggle runs through a wall, or when anything else happens that takes me completely out of the show/match.

    Explain how this statement isn't completely ridiculous on your part and how it helps your argument in any way, shape or form?

    Like I said... I'll take raw intensity over cartoony, over-the-top nonsense any day of the week. And I'm pretty sure most fans, past and present, feel the same way.

    No, I don't see your point, because it doesn't make sense. Sure, "cliches" were brought into the match, as they are in every single wrestling match in history (every time there's an Irish Whip in a match, that's a cliche), but not many matches throughout history match the excitement, drama and intensity of Jericho vs. HHH from Fully Loaded 2000. Cena vs. Edge from Backlash certainly isn't one of them.

    Like I said, long terms plans.. they did exist back then, Tenta. Maybe it was Paul Heyman who gave Jericho an extra compliment backstage, but I'm certain without the Jericho/HHH feud people like Stephanie, HHH, and Vince wouldn't have been as trust worthy with Jericho as they were to give him a main event push and become the very first Undisputed Champion in WWE history.

    I won't deny WWE has had their moments with certain matches and feuds these past few years, but it's not as consistent as it was back then, and you know it.

    As I told you, I'll take drama and intensity in matches over huge spot fest any damn day. And I firmly believe most fans are the same exact way, which is why most main event feuds are built around drama and intensity.

    I'm not discrediting them at all. They're all good matches, but none are as good as HHH vs. Chris Jericho. The fact of the matter is, Jericho vs. HHH is brought up by fans of that era more so than any of those matches. You ask people what are your favorite matches from Jericho? The Fully Loaded match will be brought up. You ask people what are your favorite matches from HHH? The Fully Loaded match will be brought up.

    Now, ask people what they're favorite matches from Edge and Cena are; I sincerely doubt you get a lot of answers than bring up the Backlash match.

    Oh, horse shit, Tenta. This forum is easily one of the biggest WWE fan favorite on the entire internet. If it's so "smarky" as you put it, then why does TNA hatred surpass everything here? If it's so "smarky," then how come the ROH/International Section doesn't get more topics?

    LOL

    Mr. "I'm unbiased enough to say Jericho vs. HHH is a great match, but you're too much of a smark living in yesteryear to realize how great Edge vs. Cena" now wants to call HHH vs. Jericho overrated? Strange.

    Back then it wasn't a bad thing to have Steph on television. She was a great character at the time.

    You're thinking of CM Punk, my man, not Chris Jericho.

    Honestly, do you think Paul Heyman seriously had enough pull in the WWF back then to push Jericho to beat The Rock and Steve Austin in one night to become the first Undisputed Champion? Again, excuse me, excuse me...

    :lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:

    There, feel much better.

    That wasn't my point. If something is truly "brilliant," as you claim the feud between Edge and Cena was, then the numbers would have risen drastically. The fact is, Tenta, that people will tune in to watch brilliant television.

    How was the feud resolved? You say Edge was the better man, but he couldn't defeat Cena by himself. He needed the Big Show. How in the World does that make Edge the better man?

    I've given plenty of love to post Attitude Era WWE throughout my time on this forum. That's a fact, man.

    So, as a wrestling fan.. I'm never supposed to suspend disbelief? It's wrong of me to do that?

    And I do have an objective stand-point. You know who two of my favorite wrestlers are in WWE? Edge and John Cena. Don't believe me? Ask Tdigle and anyone who has had long conversations with me personally about the business. I'm a big fan of both these guys, but I did not like the fact that WWE decided to rehash their feud past the unbelievably great Unforgiven match.

    So, you haven't done the exact same thing within this debate? You're saying that Edge vs. Cena is better than Jericho vs. HHH. You're putting that over as a fact, just as I am in saying that Jericho vs. HHH is better than Edge vs. Cena. For you to bitch and moan about me doing the same thing you're doing is so hypocritical, man.

    Of course it is, and I'm doing just that, in an honest form. What do you want me to say, man? I TRULY love the Jericho vs. HHH match, and I TRULY did not like Cena vs. Edge at Backlash. That is honestly how I feel, and all I'm doing in this debate is expressing why I feel the way I feel. I don't understand what you're getting so upset about.

    1. Of course you did, because you know it's a fact. ;)

    2. Dude, you just got done calling it overrated. How can something be fantastic and overrated at the same time?

    3. Good for you. I did as well. But why does it pain you so much that I couldn't enjoy Edge vs. Cena past their Unforgiven match?

    That's how I felt, man. As a fan who has watched since he was a little kid, I'm not going to enjoy something I've already seen, from two guys whose feud should have died nearly two years before the match occurred. Sorry, but I can't force myself to like it. I'm not saying I'm better than anyone else because I didn't like the match and they did; I'm just saying it's not something that impresses me. Edge vs. Cena's TLC match... THAT impressed me. However, this Last Man Standing match did not. It's how I feel. Shit, to be quite honest, I HATE the Last Man Standing concept to begin with. It's a fucking drag to watch two wrestlers lay on the ground for 9 seconds for about a dozen times in a match. But Chris Jericho and HHH were able to have a great match under those circumstances and I've always been impressed by it.

    Like I said, man, you're making ridiculous assumptions. I've stated here how much I loved the Nexus storyline. I've stated plenty of shit I've liked from both WWE and TNA. Hell, if you look at my top 10 favorite matches of all time, you will see that a lot of them take place from 2002-2009. I don't long for yesteryear. I still find plenty of enjoyment in the business today, but I did not like the fact that Edge vs. Cena continued past their TLC match. I found everything past that a failure compared to that match. That's just how I feel. Doesn't make me "smarky," as you so eloquently put it.

    I did not say because they brawled all over the arena that THAT made the match cartoonish. It was because of a couple of spots during the match, and the ending, why I felt it was cartoonish.

    You're taking what I said and only reading it in a way you want to. Again, I'm not saying it was the brawl all over the arena that made it cartoonish; I'm saying because since I've seen it before, and since there were ridiculous spots with a TERRIBLE ending in the match, that I did not like the match.

    Seriously, what am I saying that's so devastatingly bad here? Do you even know, Tenta, or are you just getting riled up over no reason whatsoever?

    As I've already explained, it was because WWE was planning for the long term with this match. This match didn't take place to make Jericho a main-eventer right then and there; it took place so the fans could take him more seriously as a main event PROSPECT. And when the time came for him to make that leap to the main event, it was this match people could look back on and trust that with Chris Jericho, you're guaranteed to have a great champion and contender with a match like this under his belt.

    Where in my statement did I say that, Tenta? I didn't... I'm just saying you can't toss a word like "brilliant" around like that, because if Cena vs. Edge was truly a "brilliant" feud, then WWE's numbers would have been much higher. Let's not forget that the second official night of the feud, the sex celebration segment, is still the highest rating WWE has seen since then. So, people know who Edge and Cena are, just based off that segment alone, and if the feud past that was truly brilliant, then WWE would have continued getting numbers they got that night (or somewhat close to it) whenever they rehashed it, but instead... number consistently went down.

    Now, I agree that HHH did a lot of terrible shit from 2002-2004 to bring the company down, but WWE could have easily fixed it. As I said... Edge got the rating in the night after he beat Cena, but past that the numbers kept tumbling.

    I'm not putting ALL the blame on Cena vs. Edge here, either, for the record. DX was fucking terrible, as were other things about the show. However, I'm just saying, if the feud was brilliant, like you said it was, their segments would have rated much higher. That's a fact, man.

    Where did I say that? LOL... you couldn't even put a quote under this statement like you did all the others because I never say anything remotely close to it. I'm not even going to address the ridiculous paragraph that followed this.

    Tenta, I do not like the match. I've expressed to you why I feel this way. I'm a fan of both wrestlers, and I'm a fan of some of their previous work, but their Backlash match sucked in comparison to the HHH/Jericho match. What more do you want me to say? That's how I feel; it's completely "impartial" whether you want to admit it or not.
     
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  9. Tenta

    Tenta The Shark Should've Worked in WCW

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    Because it was the 2nd gimmick match on a PPV where the other one was Rikishi/Venis? I mean, come one, you're basically telling me the gimmick match took the most time out of the broadcast. Next you're gonna tell me the Oceans blue, and that dogs walk on four legs. As for your Taker/Shawn point, one can easily make the argument that Shawn/Taker should have ended the card, which they remedied the next year. Jericho/HHH? Pah.


    For the record, if it was played out, we would have had Cena winning this LMS match. The ending was what provided the twist. I mean, if you ask 100 fans who they thought was going to win that match, it'd be Cena. Besides, it was a harmless, one month transition feud, which they built effectively enough to warrant a LMS match. And the following match was fantastic.



    Well, there's going to be no way to avoid this one; the ending. We get it, you hated the ending. You can't accept it for the spot that it was. When Shane McMahon took the bump from the top of the Backlash set, or the Summerslam set, for that matter, did you care that it didn't make much sense for him to do it? Fuck no, it was something that gives a big explosion (pardon the pun) to the end. Just because you may not like it, doesn't mean others don't. Shit, there's a debate going on in this same DL that uses the spot to support his claim, that LMS matches are more brutal. What's cartoonish to you, may not be so much to other people. That's why I keep pulling the "preference" card, because it really is. That said, this is the period where I'm addressing the ending. No need to post too much, especially when it becomes unnecessary

    I'm pretty sure that you address this one later on, too. Actually, you do, so I'll address it here, and only here. You can argue that the face/heel element changed things, but at the end of the day, it was still the same characters, man. Edge and Cena played the same character, sure. But so did Jericho and Triple H. The only thing that really changed about them was how the crowd reacted to them.

    I'll agree, to an extent here. I will agree that Trips was the best heel, though I will add that the WWE was starved for heels at this point. That, and eventually, Kurt Angle I felt drew better heat than Trips did, but that's neither here nor there. So, riddle me this; if Triple H was the biggest heel in the federation, why couldn't he afford to have a tough loss? What about that match made it impossible to put Chris over. You even say it, Triple H was already the biggest heel in the company. Jericho needed that win far more than Triple H did.


    .

    But those plans really didn't involve The World Title, did they? I mean, sure, he was in a feud for the belt, you're right there. But the main point of what Triple H was doing was setting up for his feud with Kurt Angle. I guess I can see what you're saying, in that Tripl H fought for the World Title at the next pay per view. That said, you're both arguing that Triple H needed the win, and was also the biggest heel of the company. When your biggest heel in the company needs wins, there's a problem.

    It enhanced the fact that the two men hated each other, would stop at nothing to beat the other. It also showed that John Cena will never quit, which he still lives off on his gimmick for, and that Edge is an oppurtunist, who will take the win however he can. So yes, it did something for both their characters.



    I'm sorry, did I see Steph kicking Jericho to keep him down at the end? No, I saw a belly to back suplex on the table, and Triple H get up before Jericho, cleanly. Sure, Steph interfered, but not to the extent that it swayed the outcome of the match.

    Except he didn't dominate the mid card, did he? Hell, the next event, he was made to look like Chris Benoit's bitch. Sure, it was a two out of three falls match, but Benoit ultimately beat him. He then beat X-Pac, which I'm sure did miracles for his career. He then lost to Kane, before admittedly beating him in a LMS match. He beat Benoit in a ladder match, so great, he finally does that, and carries the IC Belt, opening up WM. He then goes off to trade some wins with William Regal. Not sure where you're getting that he dominated the mid card. All he amounted to was a mid card fixture, until Paul Heyman came aboard, and did wonders for getting Jericho finally into the main event. Which, mind you, he'd squander, and be sent back to the mid card after Wrestlemania 18.



    plenty of matches, but overall, you'd admit to not liking the product as much as the Attitude Era, would you not?

    Not really, it's the same idea. Guy comes down, changes the outcome of the match, no one expects it, and we go on to a storyline involving that person. I grant you, the comparison is extreme. That said, it's pretty damn similar, really. And for the record, no, Hogan wasn't involved the whole time. It was implied, but people didn't know who they were going with until the actual Bash event. Hell, for the longest time, it was going to be Sting making the turn. Hogan was nowhere implied, it was just some big star. The WCW just got lucky that Hogan decided to turn heel



    So, again, you're making an argument off preference, that you didn't like the Edge/Cena feud? Perfectly fine, but plenty of others did.


    Well, I'm first going to say something. We both know ECW heavily influenced the Attitude Era. We agree here, no? As a matter of fact, I'll be the one to say it, The WWE pretty much took ECW's concept, and put it on a bigger stage. You talk often about how much you love ECW, furthermore how your love of ECW causes you to dislike the angle. Again, perfectly fine, but you're taking that from the context of a person who's ver well read on ECW, and knows their stuff on the company. Unfortunately, not every fan here is that way, and more are actually less aware of the true ECW than either you, me, or plenty of others on these forums. Again, maybe it might seem like a stretch to you... Actually, it isn't. ECW heavily influenced The Attitude Era. Doesn't take much to make the logical step to you liking something based off a product you admittedly love, in ECW. There, that addressed, and because of such, if we get into this again, and we will, see this paragraph.



    Except you're doing so on the assumption that match did alot for Jericho. It didn't really, just one of his many flighty, and sporadic, times in the main event from 2000-2005, I'd say.


    Eh... I'm going to give you Lionheart, maybe. I'm also going to give you Chris Jericho from WCW. If he had brought that character with him to WWE, it would have done wonders. But it really didn't. All it did was get him in the mid card, as the man who held the second string title the most times. That is, until this run of success he just got, which has solidified him as an actual main event name.

    Well, otherwise the belt is still on Raw, and Smackdown has nothing. Would you rather have that?


    I'm going to agree, in that adding Steph could have done wonders, if he wasn't treated like such an afterthought in that feud. Otherwise, again, the only thing changing is the crowd reaction


    I shouldn't say mark. Such a nasty word. What I mean is that, as an ECW fan, you're trying to uphold this match to an ECW standard. Would be great if it were an ECW match, and they were courting an ECW fan. But, it wasn't, and they weren't, really. That's more what I mean, I suppose.


    You just pointed out something fantastic; standards. Sure, you can have standards, but unfortunately, you must be prepared to accept that those standards are infinitely different from others, and what isn't going to appeal to you, and what seemingly hasn't, will appeal to the fan sitting right next to you. Standards; the most subjective thing in wrestling.




    Time to address this one. Let's go back to your first response post.

    Now, if you're going to chide Edge and Cena for doing nothing new or original, you really should have examples of where Jericho and Trips broke away from the norms of LMS. And... They didn't, they really ran a forumlaic LMS match, filled with all the same typical spots, and adding a rib injury storyline. I'm no so much chiding a lack of "originality", I suppose, as much as I am chiding you for holding it against Cena and Edge, but not Trips and Jericho.

    The reason Jericho was given the push, allegedly, was because Triple H was supposed to be the one to take the title, and he wasn't ready yet. Jericho was a placeholder, a smaller name than Triple H, that Trips could easily take the title from. Which is why Jericho's run as champion was filled with matches in which he proved he was never better than his opponents, Rock and Austin, and when Trips was finally ready to come back, he could take his spot as champion.

    Th entire show? Well, of course not. In principle we agree on many things about the WWE porgramming now, and in 2009. Just not this.


    Well, we could do that, but again, it's all specualtion. Look, there's no evidence to say such a thing, and frankly, I don't buy as many people would say these things about that match, for either Triple H or Chris Jericho. Both of them have had plenty of other fantastic matches that push their LMS out of people's thoughts. Of course, the same is true of Edge and Cena, but my point being with all the great matches these men have had, I highly doubt either will stick out as greatly. The only one that stands a chance of standing out more was Edge and Cena, because the right person won that match, a title was changed hands, meaning that goes in the record books, and the spot, which you still will never like, but I've moved passed that



    Ok, we're smarky, to an extent. Still, TNA isn't exactly the smarky thing anymore. ROH sure is, but the fact is, most people don't have ROH on television, and this can;t watch it on a regular basis. Thus, not as many topics about it. See what I did there?

    LOL

    Well, isn't the point of a debate? ;)




    Except when most of their viewers have already been driven off. Another time, another thread.

    Ok, better man was a poor choice of words. Totally admit that one, faux pas on my part. That said, Edge came out the winner, and they haven't had a feud again after this. I'm not going to sit here and tell you the Edge/Cena match at the end felt tacked on to the end of the feud, but it was done with reason. The reason being simply that the WWE needed it to be, and thus it was. Still, as an actual match, I still like it better than Jericho/Trips.

    I've seen, man. I'd never doubt that, I know how smart you are here, don't ever get that twisted. I realize Cena is one of your favs. I've said he's the closest thing we'll have to Sting ever again, and I stand by that. Still, I've often seen you make the case for more "ECW" based ideas, and championing them. The point is, you have a set preference, and admittedly, part of the problem was that this match didn't fit yor preferences.


    Not, but again, if you're going to expect realism in wrestling... Well, it just won't happen. We're talking about a branch of entertainment when people are set on fire, buried alive, biten by snakes, all of the like. Realism in wrestling isn't typically the most important thing. Oh wait, sorry, I mean never the important thing


    I'm bitching and moaning because you're using an ECW standard to evaluate a WWE match. Just don't work like that, brah.



    Now, see, we're of different mindsets. I enjoy the, typically, finality, of a LMS match. I enjoy that it can be the last match of the feud, either that or the "I Quit" match, and that you get the finality.

    .
    Only thing I regret about this debate is referring to you as a "smark". All apologies meant.

    That said, I still feel you're not giving fair due to a match, because it doesn't meet the standards you have alreadtt set out, from years of watching a brutal promotion like ECW. Color me crazy to say it's unfair you're upholding ECW standards on a WWE match.


    See the part that was bolded.I have a funny feeling people tuned in because it was going to be a "Sex celebration". Were we going to see actual ass and titties? Shit no, but it was something that harkened back to the Attitude Days. That probably pulled up the numbers, more than anything.


    Again, if Edge promised an orgy, it probably would have done higher numbers. The truth was, it was sex offered on cable TV. We may have known it wasn't happening, but it was still something you just had to see what they did.



    Welll.........

    Now, you weren't talking directly about Triple H and Jericho. However, by saying Edge and Cena did nothing original, you're at least implying that Triple H and Jericho didn't. And they really didn't, they just refreshed some old cliches from yesteryear.



    But it really isn't. You're upholding an ECW standard on a product that, well, isn't ECW. Again, you're arguing because you didn't like it. You didn't like the cartoonish spots, you didn't like the ending, you didn't like the Cena/Edge feud.

    Which is fine, but because you didn't like it doesn't make it a worse match
     
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  10. jmt225

    jmt225 Global Moderator

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    Gimmicks had nothing to do with why HHH vs. Jericho received the most time on the card; they received the most time because it was the match people were most interested in seeing. Simple as...

    I disagree. I think most fans knew Cena was going to lose in screw-job fashion, since there was no chance in hell WWE would have two champions on Raw, and leave Smackdown with no champion at all.

    Honest to God truth, not just saying this, but outside of his match against Kurt Angle at the King of the Ring, I have never liked a Shane McMahon match, just because of what you explained. I'm not impressed with stunt-men pulling stunts... I love wrestling. I love dramatic, raw, violent, intense professional wrestling.

    I understand what you're saying, and I do see why other fans like it, but I just don't see how anyone can compare ridiculous, cartoonish stunts to intense, raw emotion, plus a ton of violence that looks and feels real.

    Again, I see what you're saying... but two characters switching from face to heel and then feuding makes everything different. Now in the promos the heel receives the most time on the mic, and in the matches the heel controls the majority of it (most of the time, anyway). It causes for a very different dynamic in the feuds and matches.

    Because as I said, just a month later, HHH would be headlining Summerslam in a Triple Threat Match for the WWF Championship, which would then progress to the major feud between he and Angle. If HHH lost against Jericho... how would it have been justified for him to receive a World Title match at Summerslam?

    Actually, HHH vs. Kurt Angle would spill over and become a feud over the WWF Title, if you remember, so your point here is completely off base.

    Okay, let's say you're right here... I still say that Jericho and HHH did everything you just said, only more realistic, thus making the match more entertaining.

    Also, if you are right here... again I say what a shitty ending to have these two do all that violence to one another only for someone else to finish the match.

    Actually, it did. As a fan, you could say that if Steph never interfered in the match, Jericho would have had more chances to put HHH away. For example, Jericho had HHH in the Walls of Jericho, HHH made it to the ropes, but since there were no rules, Jericho could just pull him away from them and keep him locked in his finisher. However, Stephanie interfered, thus making Jericho let go of the hold. If Stephanie doesn't interfere, then Jericho can keep that hold locked on HHH for as long as he wants, which would have won him the match.

    But it was a fantastic match, and let's not forget that Benoit was coming off a World Title feud, looking very, very strong.

    You're right, I used the wrong word in "dominate." I should have said carried instead, which would have made my point stronger. My bad.

    Meh, there's no proof to suggest that Paul Heyman was behind Jericho's push.

    Overall, no. It's not as consistent in entertainment value as the Attitude Era was, but still... you were putting it over as if there's absolutely nothing I like about the last few years in WWE, which certainly is not the case.

    It's really not though, Tenta. Hogan was coming down to what people believed to "save the day," whereas everyone knew Big Show's intentions from the get-go. There's a huge, huge difference there.

    I'm not saying people knew, but in hindsight it hits you like, "Oh shit, it was Hulk Hogan who was behind this the whole time!" That's ultimately what I meant by that statement.

    Not as many people who liked the Jericho vs. HHH match, though. ;)

    Yes, I agree.

    But I'm not saying that at all. If they can take a "Brawl Across the Arena" and still have it be better or at least live-up to the past matches I've seen using the same formula, then that would be awesome and I would have no problem with it.

    Which is why I brought it up in my first post that the only reason the people who do like this match do are only people who haven't watched much wrestling outside of WWE. Sure, there can be an exception or two (such as yourself), but that doesn't make my statement any less true.

    It was Jericho's first "big" match in the company, man. That certainly does a lot for someone's career, when the match ends up being as good as his match with HHH that night ended up being.

    Meh, I'd say he had been established himself as a main event name. I mean, what's different today than back in 2005? He just jobbed to Evan Bourne a couple of weeks ago... doesn't sound like such a strong main eventer.

    Besides, I would say Jericho's heel work against Cena before he left WWE in 2005 by far and large surpasses anything he's done since he return.

    No, of course not. I'm just saying WWE could have come up with something better than yet rehashing another Cena/Edge feud.

    Shit, just off the type of my head... imagine a Jeff Hardy vs. Cena rivalry instead of Edge vs. Cena for Wrestlemania and Backlash, with Hardy ultimately going over. You cannot tell me those two wouldn't have some great matches, with a highly intense atmosphere from the fans.

    Nah, Heel Jericho vs. Face HHH matches are very different from Face Jericho vs. Heel HHH matches. There's not even a comparison.

    ECW would have never had a match like the one Cena vs. Edge had, so it's not even fair to say that if this match would have taken place in the original ECW then I would have liked it, because in the venues ECW wrestled in and with equipment they use, it would have been literally impossible for the wrestlers to pull off some of those spots. Moreover, if ECW would have tried this type of match with wrestlers like Cena and Edge... ECW fans would have shat on it.

    I certainly do accept that. But I'm saying that I believe most people would have the same standards as me if they've been a fan of the sport as long as I have, and have seen the same things I've seen. That's all. You can call that a bit arrogant, but there's a reason why you see so many cynical fans on the internet around my age... they've been watching the sport for a long time. You go to a WWE show, and the arena is 90% filled with fans who've only been watching a few years, or people who hardly watch it at all but just wanted to go to a show. This is where standards come in. HHH vs. Jericho appeases to EVERYONE'S standards, whereas Edge vs. Cena only mostly appeal to those as I described in the last sentence.

    But the difference is that Jericho vs. HHH had SUSPENSE. That's where the HHH/Jericho match differs from Cena/Edge and most other Last Man Standing matches. The nine counts were actually suspenseful. You sat there thinking, "It's over, no way he's getting up from that. Holy shit! He's up!" Jericho and HHH had more moments like that than any Last Man Standing match I've ever seen, which is why I love it.

    That could be true, but at the same time... look at how long HHH's reign lasted... only a month. This was around the time where WWE started making brash, last second decisions instead of planning for the long term.

    Being bitten by a snake does seem ridiculous, but when you do it in the manner Jake Roberts and Randy Savage did it... it felt real, just like how HHH vs. Jericho felt more real than Cena vs. Edge. Sure, deep down I know it's all "fake," but when something feels more legitimate, the more I'm going to enjoy it.

    But I'm not doing that, am I? All I did was mention the fact that I've seen "Brawl all over the Arena" matches before and that since Cena vs. Edge didn't offer anything in their match to blow me away, that I wasn't very impressed by it. I just mentioned ECW as a source of where I've seen matches such as Edge vs. Cena done in a better fashion.

    Still though, it was a what, 5.3 rating? That's a lot of people, and to go from that to consistently averaging 3.4 during their feud... I mean, it says a lot, man. Again, not blaming Edge and Cena, but if that feud were brilliant as you called it, its numbers would have done much better.

    No, I said that because I thought that maybe a part of your argument would have been that the match was original and provided us a bunch of shit we've never seen. Surely, if I was debating nearly anyone else in the tournament, I would have been right to do that because they would have argued it, but I'll admit... you know your shit and you're not stupid enough to make such a ridiculous claim. :icon_razz:

    But it's not an ECW standard; it's a standard I have period, for any wrestling match in any wrestling company.

    Well, to be frank, I feel my standards are fair enough for me to make such a claim. I'm not saying the Edge vs. Cena match is bad just because I didn't like it, but when comparing it to HHH vs. Jericho, bringing up the standards I have in a wrestling match should show the judges just why HHH vs. Jericho has the edge in this debate, because the fact of the matter is, if a match lives up to the high standards I set, then it's a great, great fucking match. :)
     
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  11. Tenta

    Tenta The Shark Should've Worked in WCW

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    Ok... What's the interest in seeing that match without the LMS concept? Seiously. Because they'd already had the match on Raw. Sure, it went over well, but the gimmick surely alloted it more time.

    Right... Because nowhere around the company was there someone lying around with a guaranteed contract for a Title Shot at any time he chooses

    [​IMG]

    I mean, sure it has happened before, but that would have been a perfect time for a cash in. So it isn't nearly as predictable an ending as you make it out to be.

    I can accept that, and believe me, we agree very much that intense wrestling is a great thing. It's also something going the way of the Dodo. Still, there are plenty of people that love Shane's spots, Jeff Hardy's spots, etc.

    Well, that's be well and great, except Jericho didn't even get that much mic time as the heel did he? Pretty much all his time went to Stephanie McMahon and Triple's poor dog, Lucy.

    Better question; Why did he need the shot at Summerslam? His time had come and passed, really. It was time for a two or three month stay away from the main event. Just like what Cena did after his match with Edge. It puts new faces working with each other, and makes the program overall much fresher.

    Well, that wouldn't happen until January 2001, and even then, they broke up that feud for Austin and Trips to fight. So, not really.

    Right, because I really believed that Chris Jericho was going to hit a moonsault onto Triple H on the table. Or that they knew to hit each other with monitors at the same time. I get what you;re saying, but again... Those I's, JMT. Who are you, Kurt Angle?

    Your point on how much Steph interacted is noted, but frankly, irrelevant. She broke the Walls, yes, but what else did she really do? Chris kicked out of Trip's finishing move. Why am I not to believe Trips would have gotten out of the walls.

    Fantastic match? Sure, they always did. Mid card? Uh, ya bet.

    Well, even there, I'll agree that he did carry the mid card. That said, he had considerable help from Chris Benoit, new workers coming in from ECW and eventually WCW, and a tag team division that was skyrocketing at this point

    Except the reports from WrestlingObserver.Com that Paul Heyman was pushing for his boys backstage. Or, I could cite Ring of Hell, from Matthew Randazzo. Are you really going to force me to break out that book?

    Well, sure, there's a lot of fucked up shit. This, however, wasn't on the fucked up list.

    Make up your mind here. Either Hogan was built into the angle the whole time, or he wasn't, and was seen to "save the day".

    I can smiles, too. Watch me. :disappointed:

    See? That's for maing a statement that's overall opinion

    Must I point it out again? I get what you're saying, but again, you're making the argument for yourself; not necessarily why Jericho-Trips is a better match.

    I get what you're saying, and it's acknowledged. Still, I'm not sure how many fans are aware of the origins of ECW fighting in the crowd. They make love ECW, but just not know about the idea of wrestling in the crowd being in ECW. At least, enough to associate with ECW.

    Hmm... JMT, do you remember how Y2J started out his career?

    [YOUTUBE]jBvsRKmZWH0[/YOUTUBE]​

    Ok... I shouldn't have asked, that came off kinda patronizing. You do know how he started. It isn't like Jericho had no beginnings in the main event. His debut coincided with a Rock promo, man. A Rock Promo. Sure, this was his biggest match at this point, but it wasn't like they were experimenting him as a main event wrestler just that one time. They teased it as early as his debut. Which, afterwards, I feel how he was booked just wasn't that great.

    Well, sure how he isn't that great. But if you like intense wrestling, how did you not like Jericho's LMS match with Shawn Michaels? Sorry, I mean his unsanctioned match. Or even his ladder match with him. These people lap up everything Jericho does now, even more so than his Y2J persona. Sure, it's grown old now, but for a while, it was the best thing in wrestling. Why else would be named Wrestler of the Year in WWE, or some junk like that? Or best promos? Anyway, Jericho is much more of a main event name, and has earned more accolades for his work now then he had throughout 2000.


    Personally? I don't prefer Hardy. Much like you don't prefer this match. I recognize his talents and admit he's over. Just don't prefer him.


    Well, again, you're looking at a different audience, not the ECW audience. Still, you're looking at the match from an ECW fan's perspective. All I'm sayin, really.

    .

    I can see where you're going. That said;

    1. I don't buy the fans are as cynical. Plenty of fans our age are happy with the product now, and I'm not talking spam posters, but respected, intelligent minds. I could list names, but I won't.

    2. Not everyone grew up with an ECW background. Hell, I'm your age, and my background is much more as a WCW/NWA fan. I like ECW, but I cling to WCW like a fluffy pillow. See what I'm saying?


    You mean like putting a 50 year old man as the Champion of the Company? Yeah, I said it, but admittedly, the Hogan title switch was something I enjoyed.

    You mean, "I was a child, and didn't question as much as my cynical, black heart does now"?

    Ahem, perhaps a little overboard there. Still, it's quite true. Shit, man, look at the Nostlaiga Critic. He makes a living shredding up our childhood, even when the movies might've been shit. We were just younger, and didn't question it


    Maybe Lita could have promised stripeteases at every show. Pretty sure that would have kept ratings in the 5s.

    Come now, JMT. What am I, a fool? Nothing's original in wrestling. Nothing.

    Which leans towards being a fan of a certain northeast company who took things to violent.... eeeextremes, shall we say?

    But maybe, and just maybe, because of the bias you have towards certain things, we should put your perspective to question. Again, it's not about what fits JMT's portfolio of a better match. It's what was the better match. And the two are nowhere near synonymous
     
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  12. jmt225

    jmt225 Global Moderator

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    There would have been interest in the match no matter why type of stipulation the match had. Regular, Cage, Last Man Standing... anything. People just wanted to see these two go at it. Their 'Mania main event went almost 20 minutes, and that had no gimmicks in it. I'm sure they could have done something similar at Fully Loaded if that was the case, because it was the #1 talked about feud going on at the time.

    Yeah, that's a good point, I admit. However, I don't think anyone was really expecting that. I think most, including myself, thought Edge was going to win in screw-job fashion and then go to Smackdown as the World Heavyweight Champion.

    But you're right... there was a small chance of Punk cashing in and beating the World Champion after the match was over, no doubt about it.

    I agree that the storyline for the 'Mania match was shit; I'd never argue it wasn't. But it still doesn't take away from the fact that face and heel turns throughout the course of very long feuds causes for very difference dynamics in said feuds.

    Because HHH was the biggest heel in the company and they wanted the show to draw as highly as possible, by putting the most over heel against the most over babyface (The Rock)? Then you throw in Kurt Angle, who was perhaps the 2nd most over heel on the show, and you have a worthy main event for the 2nd biggest pay-per-view of the year.

    But the feud was still a continuation for why they were feuding in the first place.

    All plausible to happen in a wrestling match and not make you roll your eyes at how ridiculous it is someone would do that in a fight.

    From a fan's perspective, man, HHH eventually passes out in the Walls of Jericho. And if he passes out, he will be down for more than 10 seconds. There's absolutely no doubt about that. However, we'll never find out for sure, because Stephanie interfered, causing Jericho to break the hold.

    What's your point? I never claimed it wasn't a mid-card match.

    Of course he had help, but Jericho was undoubtedly the most popular wrestler on the mid-card at the time.

    I'm sure he was, but that doesn't mean he had a lot of influence. If he had that much influence, then I'm sure guys like Lance Storm and a lot of other guys Heyman worked with in ECW would have gotten more opportunities to succeed in the company.

    From a fan's perspective Hogan was built into the angle the whole time. Was it always planned for Hogan to be behind the attack? I have no idea, but kayfabe wise... yes, Hogan was always with Nash and Hall.

    But it's not overall opinion. More fans saw the Jericho/HHH match than Edge vs. Cena, so obviously more fans like it than Edge vs. Cena. ;)

    Seriously though, I firmly believe that if you sat 50 fans down, and they watched both matches back-to-back, at least 40 of them would say Jericho vs. HHH was better. Is there any way for me to prove this? Of course not, but LOGIC leans to say that would be the case, since, for reasons I've already gone over, HHH vs. Jericho is the far superior match.

    I'm making an argument period, Tenta. Do some of my standards play into it? Yes, it does, but I still believe the things I've cited throughout the debate are valid reasons why the match is better.

    Seriously, by saying this, then no debate in this tournament should happen, since people will only argue for reasons why THEY believe what they're saying is truth, and that includes yourself. Everything you've said in this debate, I could easily flip around and say you only said it because that's the stuff you prefer.

    Congradulations, Tenta, you just won understatement of the year with the "Wasn't that great" line there at the end of your post.

    The way Jericho was booked after that promo was HORRIBLE. He went on to feud with The Road Dogg and job to Chyna for Christ sakes, man.

    Anyways, my statement still holds true... the HHH match was Jericho's first big match in the company. Not his first big moment, but definitely his first big match. That's indisputable.

    Those matches were very good, but none of them hold a candle to Jericho vs. Michaels at Wrestlemania 19. Not a single one.

    And why is that, Tenta? Is it because Jericho is so much better than he used to be, or is it because there's much less talent on the show these days than it was when Jericho first started in the WWF and the years after?

    For a while it was the best thing on Raw, yes, but again... the overall product was horrible. I believe Raw got its lowest rating in years during Jericho's big run, which was a 2.9 or some shit. Like I said... Jericho only shined so bright because there was no one else taking the spot light from him. CM Punk was face, Cena and Orton were injured around this time, Edge was on Smackdown, and you had a couple of 40-year-olds in HHH and HBK. That was all Raw had during this point... of course Jericho was the best thing about the show, man.

    I'm looking at it from a wrestling fan's perspective. There are plenty of things I've loved over the years that ECW fans would have hated.

    1. I agree. There are some fans (like D-Man) who will enjoy the show, for the most part, no matter what because to them, wrestling is wrestling. They love professional wrestling, so they're going to love WWE, the biggest pro wrestling company in the World. And I admire those who are able to be like that. However, most fans are not. Even the people you list would admit that most fans are not as accepting as they are.

    2. I didn't "grow up" with ECW, either. I saw Barely Legal when it first aired, and I probably ordered about 10 other (give or take) pay-per-views during ECW's run, but I still loved the WWF and WCW. In fact, while I very much enjoyed every ECW pay-per-view I ordered as a young teenager, I didn't come to truly appreciate the company until a few years later when I could get my hands on their earlier stuff, from 1995 to early 1997, which was by far their best work. For the most part though, I grew up with WCW and the WWF just like everyone else. Was I lucky enough to get exposed to ECW? Sure, but I don't hold ECW as the be-all end-all of professional wrestling like a lot of hardcore ECW fans do, even if I am a huge fan of the old company myself.

    How could you enjoy that, Tenta, honestly? The HHH/Hogan match was absolute shit, and Hogan's reign only lasted a month itself, lol.

    Dude, even when I watch the Savage/Roberts segment today it creeps me out how Savage could allow that to happen. Snakes are scary fucking creatures, man.

    But seriously... there's still a part of me that can be gullible to the product. For instance, Edge vs. Matt Hardy... I fell for that, and today I believe it was all a work.

    Or just a good show. When Jericho/HHH were feuding, WWE wasn't promising strip teases each week, but they were still averaging something like a 6.1 rating every week.

    Not really, man. One of my favorite matches of all time is Diesel vs. Bret Hart at Survivor Series 1995. There was only one "hardcore" spot in that entire match, but it's still terrific in my eyes just because of the intensity and drama of it. In fact, I would say I supported the WWF more so from 1992 to early 1998 (well, let's say from Flair debut to HBK's retirement) than any other time in my life (truth be told, I didn't start enjoying the WWF after HBK's first retirement again until Jericho came along, and even then it took me a while because WWE was trashing him), and that's easily one of their less extreme periods.

    And I'm explaining that yes, while these are my standards, they still can be used in an argument about what makes a better match, just like EVERYONE else in the Debate League will be doing, including yourself. I think it's unfair for you to try and use this tactic against me, since you yourself and everyone else will be guilty of it throughout the Debate League.

    Anyways, this will be my last reply, as the debate is supposed to end tomorrow afternoon, so I won't be here to reply. So, Tenta good sir, I grant you the last word.
     
    #12
  13. Tenta

    Tenta The Shark Should've Worked in WCW

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    For the record, I'm not going to answer every single quotation going, this will just be a quick summary of the matter. However, I would like to respond to one point of debate brought up.

    I know the WWE was pretty inconsistent in booking this thing, but usually, it was the case that the man who won the King of the Ring got a shot at the champion at Summerslam, if warranted. Owen Hart had his shot at Bret at Summerslam, after winning the crown, do did Mabel. Hell, Brock Lesnar got his shot against the Rock by winning King of the Ring. Guess who won the 2000 KOTR? That's right, Kurt Angle, who you called the #2 Heel in the company. I don't think it would be much of a stretch for him to get a shot at Summerslam. Read; Not win, get a shot. Still, it matters not to the argument. Just sayin...

    Anyway, for about a week, JMT and I landed haymakers on each other, punching each other in the bellywelly and such. That said, we've both made our respective points, but I would like everyone to consider something; what exactly did both matches accomplish? These both were fantastic matches, and both are career defining moments in each wrestler's career. That said, let's consider what we have argued.

    JMT has based his argument... Well, on that he believes it's a better match. Wouldn't be smart to say otherwise, but nevertheless, JMT has based most, if not all his debate, upon things which are highly subjective, and extremely circumstantial. I wouldn't like to generalize JMT's argument... But I'm going to generalize it into JMT saying, "It's a better match, because I like it better." Well, lookie here... We've discovered through JMT's argument that Jericho-Triple H is better, because he likes it better. He also tried to say that this match made Chris Jericho a main event wrestler, which, well, just isn't true. JMT talks much about intensity and raw "drama"... How can the same not be said for Edge/Cena? Again, it's all a very vague term, which is meant to be, "Chris Jericho-Triple H is better, because I like it better".

    That's all well and good... What purpose did it serve? Was it a good match? Sure. Was Chris Jericho put to the main event? Not really. Did Triple H really need the win? Not really. Did it even go last on the card, and did it signify anything of importance to the company? Not really. The LMS of 2000, if anything, was just a nice little match, that while sure was good, ultimately gets forgotten in the list of the credentials of all these wrestlers. When people remember these wrestlers, do they think of the LMS match? Shit no, they had much better work, that was much more important to every wrestler's career.

    Meanwhile, in spite of what you may hear from JMT, Edge/Cena was an absolutely fantastic match. Did it fit his standards? No, but that doesn't take away from how good it really was. You see a story of two men who absolutely hate each other, and won't allow their hatred for the other man to let that man win. They pull out everything in their arsenal; an FU off the top rope, into the crowd, a Conchairto on the steel entrance way, a DDT on that same entrance way, hell throwing his opponent into the fucking searchlight. These men did as much as possible to not just beat his opponent; to absolutely cripple his opponent, to the point of non-existence. Not only that, it actually served a purpose to history. Not only did it crown a new Heavyweight Champion, and cement for the first time ever that John Cena was capable of losing feuds, but it also kept John Cena away from the main event. It allowed for the title to go back to Smackdown, where it could go to Jeff Hardy, and begin the greatest feud of 2009. See? From the right person going over, we have an entire year of good television. It's not jsut about being a good match, but what you can do for the company by having that damn good match. How important was that match? How much does it lead to a guy getting a rub? Jericho may have looked decent in the match, but it never led to anything, at least for quite a while. Both matches are indeed very good. Edge/Cena just had the benefit of being better, while working with less under a PG program, and still creating an atmosphere the crowd can get to, and doing what's best for the company, all at the same time.

    Make no mistake. Edge/Cena is infinitely better
     
    #13
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  14. CH David

    CH David A Jock That Loves Pepsi

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    Great way to start off the League, guys. Hats off to both of you.

    Clarity: Okay guys, I said this in another debate, I think SpoodBeest and Sign Guy. I enjoyed seeing two of the big boys going at it head to head as it made for a nice debate for me to read. But, some of the shit in there was a little more filler and had no real point in it. If you want full credit out of me from here on out, be concise, and try not to veer off too much with random shit. I knew that you guys were trying to prove and disprove arguments, but the later feud, or in the Cena vs. Edge case earlier feud, really doesn't play a factor in which makes which better.

    Point: Split

    Punctuality: I'm not going to fault JMT for not making a final post. Others may do so with punctuality or clarity, but he still would have been in the 24 hour time frame if the debates ended a little later.

    Point: Split

    Informative: Christ people, where the fuck are my numbers? Information people, tis one of the keys to your debate. There was a lack of true information in this debate, and for me it hurts your scores.

    Point: Split

    Persuasion: Now this is the tough part. Both guys did a nice job making their points but there was no swaying factor for me. I couldn't just look at any of their posts and say "Holy shit that got me". It's a tie this early, damn.

    Point: Split x2

    CH David scores this JMT 2.5, Tenta 2.5.
     
    #14
  15. Phoenix

    Phoenix WZCW's First Triple Crown Champion

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    Clarity of debate: jmt225
    I felt jmt225 kept more to subject and when he used unrelated elements, he gave good reason too. Without being too harsh on Tenta, the post about jmt's debating methods really took the debate a bit off target before returning back.

    Punctuality: Tenta
    Giving this to Tenta, mainly because he did like supplying his back to back posts which helped him here.

    Informative: Draw
    Both men unleashed as much as they could from information and was used very well to back up the discussion thoroughly.

    Persuasion: jmt225
    As much as I loved the debate from both men, I felt that because jmt did keep things at hand but also kept adding where Tenta seem to use extra elements that didn't benefit his discussion at times. This kept me firmly believing Triple H vs. Chris Jericho was the better of the two, it was tight but I felt jmt did manage to make me support him and maintain it.

    Final Score
    jmt225: 3.5
    Tenta: 1.5
     
    #15
  16. BooCocky

    BooCocky On A Nature walk with Daniel Bryan

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    Clarity This was a tough debate to judge here. Both debaters had clear posts and both stayed on topic throughout the entire debate. Well 95% of the time. But I do belive JMT had a clearer debate.

    Point: JMT225

    Punctuality- Tenta. Mainly because of the double post and I believe JMT was late with his last post.

    Point: Tenta

    Informative- They both provided a lot of information. Maybe too much information. Both went all out. Which made me split the point.

    Point:Both

    Persuasion- I think both debaters did a great job but I agree with David. I didn't really see a post that turned my head and caught me off guard. I'm not say there weren't good posts, I'm just saying it was a tough debate and no one could really take advantage.

    Point: 1 for each

    Tally:

    JMT225: 2.5
    Tenta: 2.5
     
    #16
  17. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Clarity - Both guys put up long posts, but Tenta's weren't as redundant as jmt225's. I'm given the point to Tenta.

    Punctuality - Ironically, jmt225 electing to go first means he couldn't impress judges with a double whammy a la Tenta. And, yeah, I think jmt225 was late with one post. Point goes to Tenta.

    Informative - Thanks for the history lesson, jmt225. I don't think you can ever go too far with information when it comes to this point...it did hurt you in terms of clarity, but at least you get this point.

    Persuasion - Both guys did excellent work. If anything, I saw this solely as a debate about the worth of the John Cena/Edge last man standing match. Tenta's opening argument was golden, and jmt225 had some excellent counterpoints to make to Tenta's position. Although I didn't feel the HHH/Jericho match was defended particularly well, half of your battle in this league is proving why the other choice sucks; jmt225 did that masterfully. One point to Tenta, one point to jmt225.

    Final Score

    Tenta - 3
    jmt225 - 2
     
    #17
  18. Phoenix

    Phoenix WZCW's First Triple Crown Champion

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    After a complete judge's tally, jmt225 is the victor on 10.5 points to Tenta's 9.5.

    Congratulations and great debating from the both of you!
     
    #18
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