ROH destined for an USWA fate?

[Trill Co$by]

In the 90s, the USWA was a cult promotion that was adored by countless of fans across the southern states. It was the only promotion that was able to somewhat survive as a territorial style promotion before being bought out by Vince McMahon after all of its top talent left for the then WWF and WCW. Some would say that it was the early 90s version of ECW in a sense.

Fast forward to 2012. Ring of Honor is currently facing the same routine. Kenny King has jumped over to TNA in hopes of becoming a prominent player. The Kings of Wrestling; Hero, Claudio, and now Del Rey have all either signed or are in the process of being scouted to the WWE. Tyler Black has become a main stay on NXT as the fan favorite Seth Rollins. Austin Aries, evident by his newly won TNA World title, has become the mega face of TNA Wrestling. CM Punk and Daniel Bryan have become the IT factor of the WWE main event scene. Evan Bourne is Evan Bourne...

With such an epidemic of ROH's top stars walking out and leaving to either TNA and WWE, it's leaving ROH with less and less of them. The only five left, in my opinion, are Kevin Steen, Eddie Edwards, Davie Richards, Rhett Titus, and El Generico. ROH is fading, and something needs to change.

But what and how? What is missing in ROH? How does ROH go out and make it work?

Give your opinions here.

 

[The Dragon Saga]

I don't know if you know this, but I'll clarify, as someone who has watched Ring of Honor for a very longtime.

Ring of Honor, is an independent promotion. It's where guys come to hone their craft and gain some spotlight, something which isn't easy to get when competing on the indies. Every name you listed, came, performed, left and will be replaced because that is kind of what Ring of Honor are good at, replacing the guys that leave with new faces who can rise to prominence. Case in point, Kevin Steen.

Kevin Steen probably has more fans right now than CM Punk did pre-Summer of Punk angle in Ring of Honor because it had legitimately a quarter of the advertisement sources back then as it does now. Ring of Honor has always thrived off the support their wrestlers get. They still have young guys who are creating solid fanbases. Adam Cole, Michael Elgin, Mike Bennett, Tommaso Ciampa(who I don't personally enjoy, but I know a lot of people do) The Young Bucks, TJ Perkins and Kyle O'Reilly are all names that have something in common with the likes of CM Punk, Bryan, Aries, Black, Hero and Castagnoli.

They make you question, "Who?" And then when the day comes that WWE sign them everybody jumps on the proverbial bandwagon and that guy is everyone and their mothers new favorite wrestler. And once the young guys like Cole, Elgin and Bennett depart in the future, they'll be replaced by some more young guys and the pattern will continue.

Oh and United States Wrestling Association didn't achieve half of what Ring of Honor has, asides from their exposure off the WWE inter-promotional angle and talent exchange, but even that didn't garner much attention due to it not being broadcast as heavily. Ring of Honor broke the iPPV record twice now, USWA doesn't even have corporate backing, whereas Ring of Honor, does.

 

[dtroppe]

Kevin Steen probably has more fans right now than CM Punk did pre-Summer of Punk angle in Ring of Honor because it had legitimately a quarter of the advertisement sources back then as it does now. Ring of Honor has always thrived off the support their wrestlers get. They still have young guys who are creating solid fanbases. Adam Cole, Michael Elgin, Mike Bennett, Tommaso Ciampa(who I don't personally enjoy, but I know a lot of people do) The Young Bucks, TJ Perkins and Kyle O'Reilly are all names that have something in common with the likes of CM Punk, Bryan, Aries, Black, Hero and Castagnoli.

Just like 99.9999% of the world- and thats an understatement, I have no idea who Kevin Steen is. And i am a longtime wrestling fan, that has been following the biz for 20 plus years. So i looked him up on youtube. You have got to be kidding me. The guy look like shit- its his job to maintain his body- and it looks like he treats it like a waste disposal. And thats sad because he can move around the ring very well and takes a great bump. But he looks awful. He also is corny as hell on the mic and doesnt cut a good promo. I wish him all the luck in his career but I doubt it will amount to much. Its hard to believe that he has many fans- some yes. Few -more likely. ROH wont last too long- its sad but true.

 

[The Dragon Saga]

Just like 99.9999% of the world- and thats an understatement, I have no idea who Kevin Steen is.

Chances are before you actually saw him you didn't know who Bryan Danielson is either? You do realize that is how this works, you see someone therefore you know them. It's the pretty basic requirement of the cranial nerve which links the brain to your eyesight. Write this down by the way, could be a lesson.

And i am a longtime wrestling fan, that has been following the biz for 20 plus years.

Lovely for you.

So i looked him up on youtube. You have got to be kidding me. The guy look like shit- its his job to maintain his body- and it looks like he treats it like a waste disposal.

Yet a record breaking number purchased two iPPV events he Main Evented. Oh, by the way, he has a t-shirt with the logo "KILL STEEN KILL" and the initial 100,000 Ring of Honor placed on their website sold out in three days. So, tell that to the 100,000 that bought the t-shirt, bought the Pay-Per-View, oh and the moderator who has Steen as his signature, they'd all love to hear you ramble on about bodily images.

So would Mick Foley by the way.

And thats sad because he can move around the ring very well and takes a great bump. But he looks awful. He also is corny as hell on the mic and doesnt cut a good promo.

Hmmm, your opinion, or The Rock's - The Rock complimented Steen a few months ago you see, on Twitter, for both his in-ring work and his microphone ability. So, whose opinion on his microphone should we take? One of the greatest microphone workers in the business, or you, who has difficulty typing run on sentences? I think I'll go with Dwayne on this one.

I wish him all the luck in his career but I doubt it will amount to much.

Has backing from The Rock, Jim Ross stated he is one of his favorite independent performers, Lance Storm credited his excellent cardio, has backing from Bruno Sammartino and Jim Cornette - and then there is your negative opinion. Again, I think I'll take both my own opinion, and there's, because together, we have a clue.

Its hard to believe that he has many fans- some yes. Few -more likely.

Let me see, I know at least twenty people on this forum that like him, everyone on the ROHWorld forum likes him, I know people on the WrestlingClique forum that like him, 100,000 t-shirts sold in three days, Main Evented two iPPV record breaking events, which is estimated at 35,000, give or take. Sold out the Hammerstein Ballroom, has over 14,000 followers on Twitter in three months - yeah, safe to say your opinion is irrelevant.

ROH wont last too long- its sad but true.

Heard that in 2006, 2007 and 2008. Heard that in 2009 when Bryan left. Guess what year it is now? 2012. Nice try, but you gotta try harder than that my misinformed ignoramus. So much for "20 years" of following wrestling, huh?

 

[dtroppe]

Yet a record breaking number purchased two iPPV events he Main Evented. Oh, by the way, he has a t-shirt with the logo "KILL STEEN KILL" and the initial 100,000 Ring of Honor placed on their website sold out in three days. So, tell that to the 100,000 that bought the t-shirt, bought the Pay-Per-View, oh and the moderator who has Steen as his signature, they'd all love to hear you ramble on about bodily images.

So would Mick Foley by the way.

Mic Foley is an exception to the rule. His body was not great- but he still has a unique look. He looks like a pro wrestler. You have to agree that in wrestling- the body is a huge part of what sells the character and gimmick. The biggest names in the history of wrestling had great bodies. Even guys like CM PUNk and Austin Aries have decent physiques. I doubt Kevin Steen cares what people think about his physique. And why would a moderator care if someone is talking about the man's awful look?

Hmmm, your opinion, or The Rock's - The Rock complimented Steen a few months ago you see, on Twitter, for both his in-ring work and his microphone ability. So, whose opinion on his microphone should we take? One of the greatest microphone workers in the business, or you, who has difficulty typing run on sentences? I think I'll go with Dwayne on this one.

It doesn't take a genius to be able to tell if someone is good on the mic. When you are amazing on the mic- the balls starts rolling and it usually doesnt stop until you are at the upper end of WWE. The Rock can like him all he wants- but I don't think that means Rock is calling Vince and putting his kneck on the line for this guy. I have no ill will toward Kevin Steen- or any other INDY wrestler trying to live their dream- so I hope he can make it to WWE. If the Rock Believes in him, maybe he will reach out to Vince.

Has backing from The Rock, Jim Ross stated he is one of his favorite independent performers, Lance Storm credited his excellent cardio, has backing from Bruno Sammartino and Jim Cornette

Again, unless these guys are getting him some auditions with WWE -I don't think that their praise is anything more than just that.

Let me see, I know at least twenty people on this forum that like him, everyone on the ROHWorld forum likes him, I know people on the WrestlingClique forum that like him, 100,000 t-shirts sold in three days, Main Evented two iPPV record breaking events, which is estimated at 35,000, give or take. Sold out the Hammerstein Ballroom, has over 14,000 followers on Twitter in three months - yeah, safe to say your opinion is irrelevant.

My opinion is irrelevant- as is the 100,000 people that bought the items. If Steen really did have a massive following of people who's opinions matter then WWE would be taking note and snatching him up. WWE has no problem signing ROH guys. But they aren't signing Kevin Steen. I hope for his sake they do- but I doubt HHH or Vince will be interested. iPPV sales may be record breaking- but that does not equal high buy rates. Just higher buy rates. ROH also cancels shows due to low sales, and has shows with low attendance. Again- I hope that they do succeed- but the truth is the truth.


And to address Daniel Bryan- I remember hearing about him years before he signed with WWE just because he trained with and was praised by HBK.

Its odd that you are taking it so personally. You may be Kevin Steen's number one fan- but everyone in a spotlight (however big or small) is going to have people who like or dislike them. One of my favorites of all time is Warrior- and he was and still is criticized all the time and it doesnt offend me- hell i cringe watching some of his matches and promos. But the truth is- he had a great look, great creativity, and tons of charisma. Vince loved him. The fans loved him. Why let yourself get so worked up? Just because you love the guy and the Rock likes him doesn't mean that he doesn't look great- and he that his promos aren't corny. Can you sit there and say that he looks like a wrestler? Or an athlete? Or that his mic work is great?

 

[HBsam31]

I have only been watching ROH since it came to tv in I believe September, and have been enjoying it more and more every week. To say that Kevin Steen does not have fans is not very accurate at all. Check a show out. It's very clear that he is on fire now. Just him going over Davey Richards twice is a testament as to how over he is. From what I can see like Dragon Saga said ROH is a place for wrestlers to work on their skills and get some exposure. It has always been that way, and I think they can survive as long as they keep creating new stars.

 

[The Dragon Saga]

Mic Foley is an exception to the rule. His body was not great- but he still has a unique look. He looks like a pro wrestler. You have to agree that in wrestling- the body is a huge part of what sells the character and gimmick. The biggest names in the history of wrestling had great bodies. Even guys like CM PUNk and Austin Aries have decent physiques. I doubt Kevin Steen cares what people think about his physique. And why would a moderator care if someone is talking about the man's awful look?

One person is no better than any other. Mick Foley himself states in his books that the people who judge him due to his appearance are the ones who were left with egg on their face when he became WWE Champion. I don't care what the biggest names looked like, Kevin Steen isn't one of the big guys, he is the man in a small independent promotion that has a knack for producing fantastic performers. And re-read, one moderator here is a big fan of Steen, much like myself.

It doesn't take a genius to be able to tell if someone is good on the mic. When you are amazing on the mic- the balls starts rolling and it usually doesnt stop until you are at the upper end of WWE. The Rock can like him all he wants- but I don't think that means Rock is calling Vince and putting his kneck on the line for this guy. I have no ill will toward Kevin Steen- or any other INDY wrestler trying to live their dream- so I hope he can make it to WWE. If the Rock Believes in him, maybe he will reach out to Vince.

Why would he reach out to Vince? Why would Steen want to join WWE? He is making a very good living for himself on the indies and he is enjoying himself, he is enjoying being the man. Throughout the last decade or so there has been a coined phrase, "King of the Indies," Christopher Daniels and Bryan Danielson are two people recognized by fans to have held the label, Kevin Steen is the now "King of the Indies," not only is he ROH World Champion, but he is the PWG World Champion.

And the point I was alluding to was the fact The Rock complimented his microphone work. Kevin Steen is on the level of CM Punk on the stick. I don't know what video you were watching on YouTube, but try watching a lot more. Again, if I want to know how to play golf, would I go to someone like Tiger Woods, or someone who has just watched their first round of golf? I'd go to Tiger Woods.

If I want to know about microphone work I'll take The Rock's word - not that I need to, as I know of Steen's skill - but his word, over anybody else's.

Again, unless these guys are getting him some auditions with WWE -I don't think that their praise is anything more than just that.

Again, he doesn't want to join WWE. He is making a good living working the indies, he is enjoying himself, he has created a unique, rebellious character and has been in two of the best feuds in any independent promotion in the past two years. He has been working a single angle for over a year now and is insanely over. WWE isn't the paramount scale in-which success is attributed, learn that, fast and learn that, now.

My opinion is irrelevant- as is the 100,000 people that bought the items. If Steen really did have a massive following of people who's opinions matter then WWE would be taking note and snatching him up.

Read above. Oh, and in that case, Danielson was nothing before he joined WWE I imagine? You know, considering he originally rejected their offers to sign and ended up working four more years on the independents? Think before you type.

WWE has no problem signing ROH guys. But they aren't signing Kevin Steen. I hope for his sake they do- but I doubt HHH or Vince will be interested.

Oddly enough, that is what people used to say about Mick Foley. The comparisons are amusingly similar.

iPPV sales may be record breaking- but that does not equal high buy rates. Just higher buy rates.

35,000 at a cost of $14.99, yeah I'd say that is a pretty good buyrate. Ring of Honor also keep most of the money now, considering they run the iPay-Per-View's from their website. Again, both shows that broke the record, Kevin Steen Main Evented. Proof is in the pudding here.

ROH also cancels shows due to low sales, and has shows with low attendance.

WWE canceled two shows last year due to low ticket sales, you know that? TNA have canceled house shows in the past. In fact TNA sometimes perform house shows in front of less than five hundred people. And also, again, Ring of Honor is independent, don't be Mark Madden and compare them to a mainstream scale, because that isn't what they are. Plus, just adding to this, the shows were booked in an arena with the capacity of nine hundred people, in an area of North Carolina Ring of Honor had never worked before. They were testing the waters, nothing wrong with that, their stronghold is the New York, Philidelphia regions.

Again- I hope that they do succeed- but the truth is the truth.

That being nothing you say holds any weight? Okay.

And to address Daniel Bryan- I remember hearing about him years before he signed with WWE just because he trained with and was praised by HBK.

Well isn't that fabulous. You know how I heard of him? I bought a Ring of Honor DVD in 2004, and then I purchased about twenty more after that. I also Danielson's complition DVD's and many others. And to think, Ring of Honor, much like TNA has supposedly been going out of business since 2006 or so. Crazy shit off the Internet, huh?

Its odd that you are taking it so personally. You may be Kevin Steen's number one fan- but everyone in a spotlight (however big or small) is going to have people who like or dislike them. One of my favorites of all time is Warrior- and he was and still is criticized all the time and it doesnt offend me- hell i cringe watching some of his matches and promos. But the truth is- he had a great look, great creativity, and tons of charisma. Vince loved him. The fans loved him. Why let yourself get so worked up? Just because you love the guy and the Rock likes him doesn't mean that he doesn't look great- and he that his promos aren't corny. Can you sit there and say that he looks like a wrestler? Or an athlete? Or that his mic work is great?

Yeah, pretty much. He played American Football, I'm not all familiar with the sport but I believe as someone in defense or something, I don't fully know, can't recollect the interview, so yes in a way he is athletic, he just has a large build. Go look at him in a singlet, bet your opinion will change.

If The Rock says his microphone work is great - exact quote, "workin the mic like no other," then yes I can easily say he is. I also personally feel that anyhow. His promo at the end of ROH's Best in the World IPPV two weeks ago spoke for itself. And as for looking like a wrestler, did Rikishi look like a wrestler? Did Mick Foley look like a wrestler? How about Vader, he look like a wrestler?

Please, define for me what a wrestler should look like, considering that the current WWE Champion is of an average build, the number one contender is of an even smaller build and the World Heavyweight Champion, who is much bigger isn't as over as either man, I'd intrigued to hear how one definable image is what any wrestler ought to strive for. Cause I got a bucket list of names who'd disagree.

 

[dtroppe]

Again, he doesn't want to join WWE. He is making a good living working the indies, he is enjoying himself, he has created a unique, rebellious character and has been in two of the best feuds in any independent promotion in the past two years. He has been working a single angle for over a year now and is insanely over. WWE isn't the paramount scale in-which success is attributed, learn that, fast and learn that, now.

If he is happy with what he is doing then I am happy for him. I have no idea how he feels or thinks. I don't think insanely over is accurate. He is the big fish in a very small pond. I think if you look at the wrestling industry right now, WWE is the paramount scale in which success is attributed. Its the big stage. The best in the business work there. If you ask pro-wrestlers- they will tell you the same. I have had long car rides and talks with many WWE and TNA wrestlers and they will tell you that too. WWE has the best workers, the best agents...etc

35,000 at a cost of $14.99, yeah I'd say that is a pretty good buyrate. Ring of Honor also keep most of the money now, considering they run the iPay-Per-View's from their website. Again, both shows that broke the record, Kevin Steen Main Evented. Proof is in the pudding here.

I cant argue and say that over a half million dollars is a bad day-its a good pay day.

WWE canceled two shows last year due to low ticket sales, you know that? TNA have canceled house shows in the past. In fact TNA sometimes perform house shows in front of less than five hundred people. And also, again, Ring of Honor is independent, don't be Mark Madden and compare them to a mainstream scale, because that isn't what they are. Plus, just adding to this, the shows were booked in an arena with the capacity of nine hundred people, in an area of North Carolina Ring of Honor had never worked before. They were testing the waters, nothing wrong with that, their stronghold is the New York, Philidelphia regions.

You are correct in saying that the Carolinas was a new market. But that adds to the argument that ROH has built a loyal following in an area that wrestling is very much loved. Their fan base is situated in that area- which is not a negative thing- like you have been saying- its the INDY world.

That being nothing you say holds any weight? Okay.

Of course it does not- thats why I ask why do you take it so serious- none of us hold any weight in the wrestling world.

And to think, Ring of Honor, much like TNA has supposedly been going out of business since 2006 or so. Crazy shit off the Internet, huh?

If it wasn't for the internet- Kevin Steen and ROH would be virtually non-existent.

Yeah, pretty much. He played American Football, I'm not all familiar with the sport but I believe as someone in defense or something, I don't fully know, can't recollect the interview, so yes in a way he is athletic, he just has a large build. Go look at him in a singlet, bet your opinion will change.

I am not trying to be sarcastic- but I don't know who you are talking about. Are you talking about the Ultimate Warrior?

His promo at the end of ROH's Best in the World IPPV two weeks ago spoke for itself. And as for looking like a wrestler, did Rikishi look like a wrestler? Did Mick Foley look like a wrestler? How about Vader, he look like a wrestler?

I will try to locate a youtube video of this promo and watch it for myself. I think Mic Foley looks like a wrestler- he has a crazy look and Vader is a massive man. Massive. So yes Vader is larger than life- and I always thought RIkishi looked cool- I have always been a fan of Samoa wrestlers though- so I am very biased on that one .

Please, define for me what a wrestler should look like, considering that the current WWE Champion is of an average build, the number one contender is of an even smaller build and the World Heavyweight Champion, who is much bigger isn't as over as either man, I'd intrigued to hear how one definable image is what any wrestler ought to strive for. Cause I got a bucket list of names who'd disagree.

The classic wrestling build is muscular and gernerally good looking. This is the look of the biggest names in the biz- Hogan, Rock, Austin, Sting, Taker, HHH, Batista, Warrior, Goldburg, Savage, Nash, Hall, Lesner, Cena, Jericho, Hart, Road Warriors, the list goes on and on.

Punk and Daniels dont fit the look- HBK was a muscular guy but he is short, same with Flair. There are exceptions to the rules. And only time will tell if Punk or Daniels can reach the level of the guys mentioned above. But lets be honest- Punk has the belt but he is not the top guy. Cena is. HHH and Lesner wil probably be higher on the summerslam card. Rock is higher. When Austin comes around he is higher, same with HBK.

 

[The Dragon Saga]

If he is happy with what he is doing then I am happy for him. I have no idea how he feels or thinks. I don't think insanely over is accurate. He is the big fish in a very small pond. I think if you look at the wrestling industry right now, WWE is the paramount scale in which success is attributed. Its the big stage. The best in the business work there. If you ask pro-wrestlers- they will tell you the same. I have had long car rides and talks with many WWE and TNA wrestlers and they will tell you that too. WWE has the best workers, the best agents...etc

No, he is pretty much insanely over where he is at. If you watched the product you'd know. This guy told the New York fans they were a bunch of idiots and hypocrites and to stop chanting for CM Punk and Daniel Bryan, and they still cheered for him like he were a God. It is rather amusing you could state otherwise without having a keen eye for the product and the latest happenings within the promotion.

And no, WWE isn't the paramount scale in where the best work. You nor anybody else is not of enough knowledge to state that. New Japan Pro Wrestling has just as much right to that claim as WWE do.

I cant argue and say that over a half million dollars is a bad day-its a good pay day.

Exactly, and that money would help pay towards the expenses from that show and the next, it is how independent promotions work.

You are correct in saying that the Carolinas was a new market. But that adds to the argument that ROH has built a loyal following in an area that wrestling is very much loved. Their fan base is situated in that area- which is not a negative thing- like you have been saying- its the INDY world.

Every promotion starts off in a certain region, Extreme Championship Wrestling had the same region, difference is Ring of Honor is managed better, its even been open longer. Vincent McMahon's WWWF was in the Northeastern side of America too. And it took his son to break the then WWF through the glass ceiling and into the mainstream eye.

Of course it does not- thats why I ask why do you take it so serious- none of us hold any weight in the wrestling world.

In a debate, there are two sides, I am one, you are the other. I have presented facts, you have presented insinuations and presumptions. I have presented quotes from The Rock - I can fetch the exact quotes from Jim Ross, Sammartino and others if need be - that is where your side holds no weight.

If it wasn't for the internet- Kevin Steen and ROH would be virtually non-existent.

Again, that can't be stated as a fact. Ring of Honor gained notable reputation for great wrestlers and matches back before YouTube was such a phenomenon, Ring of Honor strived for many years off DVD's, much like promotions in the 90's did off VHS trading. For example, Paul Heyman found out about Chris Jericho because somebody passed him on a tape of Jericho competing in Japan.

I am not trying to be sarcastic- but I don't know who you are talking about. Are you talking about the Ultimate Warrior?

Steen, you said he isn't an athlete, but he played American Football, an athletic sport, therefore he is of an athletic background.

I will try to locate a youtube video of this promo and watch it for myself. I think Mic Foley looks like a wrestler- he has a crazy look and Vader is a massive man. Massive. So yes Vader is larger than life- and I always thought RIkishi looked cool- I have always been a fan of Samoa wrestlers though- so I am very biased on that one .

Kevin Steen's character is that of a madman. He doesn't do elbow drops onto the concrete, he does splashes onto the concrete. He is basically the Mick Foley of this generation. I think Vader's size was too large to be credited as having the look of a wrestler, even he once called himself a fat, piece of crap. Rikishi is larger than Steen though, which is my point for making light of him. Not only that, look at Steen in a singlet, which he wears at times.

The classic wrestling build is muscular and gernerally good looking. This is the look of the biggest names in the biz- Hogan, Rock, Austin, Sting, Taker, HHH, Batista, Warrior, Goldburg, Savage, Nash, Hall, Lesner, Cena, Jericho, Hart, Road Warriors, the list goes on and on.

That was, the look. Like you said, classic, but times have changed. New guys with different looks bring intrigue. People grew tired of seeing the same people with the same body definitions and bodily images. Hence why Steen is unique.

[quote[Punk and Daniels dont fit the look- HBK was a muscular guy but he is short, same with Flair. There are exceptions to the rules. And only time will tell if Punk or Daniels can reach the level of the guys mentioned above. But lets be honest- Punk has the belt but he is not the top guy. Cena is. HHH and Lesner wil probably be higher on the summerslam card. Rock is higher. When Austin comes around he is higher, same with HBK.[/QUOTE]

That really is irrelevant. CM Punk is the WWE Champion, John Cena is a beast all on his own, everyone knows Punk is second in command but he is still one of their top guys, still sells the most merchandise and probably more favored by a majority of fans than Cena.

 

[dtroppe]

And no, WWE isn't the paramount scale in where the best work. You nor anybody else is not of enough knowledge to state that. New Japan Pro Wrestling has just as much right to that claim as WWE do.

I concede that New Japan Pro could claim this too- however, I think WWE has the edge overall.

Steen, you said he isn't an athlete, but he played American Football, an athletic sport, therefore he is of an athletic background.

I don't think Warrior was a football player- he was an active bodybuilder- I would have to try to look up if he was a footballer. If I stated he was not an athlete- I misspoke- because Warrior is an Athlete- he was and still is in phenominal shape.

Not only that, look at Steen in a singlet, which he wears at times.

There are some things you have made excellent points on and I give you credit for that. You shut me up on ROH making money in that region- but I will always disagree and Steen's look. I just think its sloppy. Perhaps it goes with his gimmick which I admittedly do not know anything about. Remember the Godwins- they looked sloppy but they had a fun gimmick that played off it. Steen, in my opinion, does not look like a world class athlete. But I will give him credit where it is due and say that he moves like a world class athlete. He look good in the ring and takes a great bump. But for me, as a fan- it just needs to be packaged better- I love that wrestlers are larger than life and look like supermen.

That was, the look. Like you said, classic, but times have changed. New guys with different looks bring intrigue. People grew tired of seeing the same people with the same body definitions and bodily images. Hence why Steen is unique.

I think that it is still the look. Cena, Lesner, HHH, Rock, Taker, Sheamus all have the look- ill even say that Roode has a great wrestler look. These guys are still at the top of the food chain. I think that this look will always be the big money look. Maybe people enjoy Steen because he looks like an average Joe and they can relate to that- again I do not know his gimmick. Similar to how SCSA portrayed himself as the common man against the boss.

still sells the most merchandise and probably more favored by a majority of fans than Cena.

You seem to have access to a lot of statistics and numbers- where do you come up with Punk being favored by more people than Cena- or out selling merchandise? But as you stated this is irrelevant as we were discussing Kevin Steen mostly.

Heres what I conclude- you have made a good argument the Steen has a lot of fans and is a big draw on the INDY scene. But without Steen ROH would still draw numbers. THats the nature of the beast. Just like any promortion would still draw numbers. Would they decrease- maybe -maybe not. I still hold that Steen is a big fish in a very very small pond.

Again -as a wrestling fan I would be happy to see ROH become bigger and stronger. It seems to be very different promgramming than WWE and TNA.

 

[The Dragon Saga]

I concede that New Japan Pro could claim this too- however, I think WWE has the edge overall.

I believe Japan's ratings system is different, but consider that wrestling in Japan is taken a lot more seriously, basically a back page headline sport to them, and then take into consideration how WWE is perceived, you'll understand where I'm coming from. I won't even name the countless legends and stars who have walked through New Japan doors.

I don't think Warrior was a football player- he was an active bodybuilder- I would have to try to look up if he was a footballer. If I stated he was not an athlete- I misspoke- because Warrior is an Athlete- he was and still is in phenominal shape.

I wasn't speaking about Helvig, I was talking about Kevin Steen. Kevin Steen was a footballer, so he is an athlete. Warrior was a bodybuilder, I believe that is how he got the wrestling gig in the first place if I'm not mistaken.

There are some things you have made excellent points on and I give you credit for that. You shut me up on ROH making money in that region- but I will always disagree and Steen's look. I just think its sloppy. Perhaps it goes with his gimmick which I admittedly do not know anything about. Remember the Godwins- they looked sloppy but they had a fun gimmick that played off it. Steen, in my opinion, does not look like a world class athlete. But I will give him credit where it is due and say that he moves like a world class athlete. He look good in the ring and takes a great bump. But for me, as a fan- it just needs to be packaged better- I love that wrestlers are larger than life and look like supermen.

I think the whole "larger than life" aspect of wrestling has almost withered out, some fans feel like they're smarter than the company itself and therefore they believe their intelligence is being insulted when WWE attempt to portray the larger than life characters. the "average Joe" is much more common. CM Punk, Daniel Bryan, Austin Aries, Santino, Christian, Kofi Kingston and R-Truth(sans Little Jimmy gimmick) are all basically playing normal people with different personas.

I think that it is still the look. Cena, Lesner, HHH, Rock, Taker, Sheamus all have the look- ill even say that Roode has a great wrestler look. These guys are still at the top of the food chain. I think that this look will always be the big money look. Maybe people enjoy Steen because he looks like an average Joe and they can relate to that- again I do not know his gimmick. Similar to how SCSA portrayed himself as the common man against the boss.

To an extent that is what his gimmick is. He is billed as "Wrestling's Worst Nightmare," he is out to remove Jim Cornette from Ring of Honor and mold it in the image he feels it should be, it all revolves around a series of events spanning over a three year period basically and eventually It'll culminate.

You seem to have access to a lot of statistics and numbers- where do you come up with Punk being favored by more people than Cena- or out selling merchandise? But as you stated this is irrelevant as we were discussing Kevin Steen mostly.

Last report on merchandise sales are CM Punk is just above John Cena, with Zack Ryder in third. Reports, confirmations and such. When a report is made by one site with little validation you know it's false or a rumor, but when Punk goes on Twitter the day the report comes out and says, "this is what happens when I lead the pack," you all assured it's true. Plus Punk has spoken in recent interviews about how of last reading he is still at the top.

Heres what I conclude- you have made a good argument the Steen has a lot of fans and is a big draw on the INDY scene. But without Steen ROH would still draw numbers. THats the nature of the beast. Just like any promortion would still draw numbers. Would they decrease- maybe -maybe not. I still hold that Steen is a big fish in a very very small pond.

Of course it will, that is the point I made in my original post, Ring of Honor build a talent up, he draws peoples interest and then he leaves, they replace him with another and the pattern continues again. To me, Ring of Honor's big break will come when one talent brings the intrigue of a Bryan Danielson level but stays with the promotion for a long period of time.

Again -as a wrestling fan I would be happy to see ROH become bigger and stronger. It seems to be very different promgramming than WWE and TNA.

It is. I like all products of wrestling - minus Juggalo's and Combat Zone - but outside that, Ring of Honor, WWE, TNA, it's all bettering wrestling as a whole.

 

[braveh]

The wrestling is decent enough. Nothing wrong the the in-ring talent IMO. They could do a lot to improve the production values, the look of the tv-show.

Two very simple steps that would help tremendously
1. Find a decent announcing team. Fire the australian guy without hair, he is horrible.
2. Build an entrance and get rid of that silver curtain. It looks horrible on tv.

Then...buy better cameras, better microphones....so many things could be improved.

 

[Arashi]

Steen's the best thing in wrestling right now, that's why I give ROH such a good chance at making it. If he stays there, they can keep going because Kevin Steen is the best on the mic right now and one of the best wrestlers.

 

[ヒュー　G.　レックション]

1. Find a decent announcing team. Fire the australian guy without hair, he is horrible.

Isn't it Kevin Kelly and Nigel McGuiness on commentary now? Nigel is British, he is bald though. I sure hope you're not talking about Nigel because the few times I've tuned in I think he's great.

 

[midgensa]

I have ALWAYS been a huge ROH mark. I watched it in the days of Punk and Joe, Daniels and Dainelson, McGuinness and Aries, and Steen and Richards and have always really enjoyed the wrestling product they put out there.

It is obvious that at any moment ROH could get eaten up because it is an Indie promotion and because money dries up all the time, but I would be very surprised to see it go the way of the dinosaur anytime soon. Not shocked, but surprised.

Ring of Honor is 10x what USWA EVER was. It is not even comparable honestly. It is CLEARLY the No. 3 wrestling show in the United States, has television promotion and has done surprisingly well with its iPPVs.

It is obvious that ROH has some rabid followers (like Mr. Saga here) and that it will still be relevant as a Indie promotion for a while. There was a short time I thought it had a chance to really start to grow, but that is not in its DNA. It is doing EXACTLY what it is supposed to. Grooming guys to take the next step.

So, to answer the question really. NO, ROH will not go the way of USWA. The way they make it work is by staying very committed to what they are an knowing what they are. They recruit and showcase the very best of indie talent ... and as long as they are doing that people will keep checking them out.

From Christopher Daniels, to Samoa Joe, to CM Punk, to Bryan Danielson, to Austin Aries, to Tyler Black and so on ... we will keep seeing these guys move on up and make major impacts in WWE and TNA. As long as they keep coming up, a handful of fans will keep wanting to check out where they came from ....

And that will keep ROH operating.

P.S. — Kevin Steen is the real fucking deal.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

You have to be clearer about USWA history, Jerry Lawler was the guy behind USWA with Fritz Von Erich. It was a legit attempt at a 3rd major promotion once the AWA folded. It only went down to "regional status" once WCCW pulled out.

WWF had a working agreement for over 4 years, they were in essence a development territory before there were such things. Vince wanted Lawler in the WWF, and part of the deal was funding the USWA. Guys like Jeff Jarrett were appearing on WWF TV as early as 1992-93 as openers under the deal. WWF moved a lot of talent up from USWA like Papa Shango while the GWF did the same thing they were in Texas. One of the last guys to come out of USWA was Flex Kavana aka The Rock. Lawler sold up because he was unable to draw in Memphis at a level that made it worth not working full time for WWE. Jarrett was out of the picture by then, so ultimately it closed because they had failed to compete with WWF and WCW and couldn't support the gates to be a developmental territory.

ROH was set up clearly a wrestling show different from what WWE offers. That it's talent eventually ends up there is more economics than a natural progression. USWA was at one time a direct competitor to the big 2, it only became regional because the Von Erichs didn't like the smaller piece of the pie and went home.

The GWF failed too, they also tried to set up a 3rd national fed.

ROH will always have its place because they are a different proposition, there will always be kids who have fallen in love with the idea of being a wrestler, rather than a sports entertainer. Those guys will always be supplemented by those who fall out of the WWE system like Haas and Benjamin, so those veterans will always be replaced too.

Where it could go wrong for them is if they ever decide to go head to head with TNA or WWE. The growth in viewers will always lead to temptation. If a bigger name for example Orton leaves WWE... IF ROH try for him they will suffer...

 

[rzombie1988]

USWA also wasn't a cult promotion. It was a territory from the 1980's that never died and beat out every other territory minus WWF/WCW.

Fritz wasn't involved in the merger. It was his sons. He had cashed out by then.

 

[dman1373]

ive been a roh fan since around 2006, and i know it has always had its faults. but i think that the roster has been getting thinner in starts. I remember a few years ago that they were jam packed with great wrestlers but now they lost alot of the bigger ones to tna and wwe. And they haven't done that good of a job at replacing them.

With that being said, its not the end of the world for roh. They will find talent, they will produce stars, and they will continue to grow.

 

[One to Remember]

R Zombie is correct that USWA was basically the last territory standing. I believe it was the derivative of a joint AWA-WCCW effort but im not clear on the full details. It was kind of the reverse of say SMW or OVW in the sense that once you kinda cooled off in WCW or the WWF or you just thawed out. I think Razor Ramon captured their World title around 1995 and Lawler kept capturing it too for example.

ROH is a third way promotion for U.S. viewers and they build stars such as the American Dragon or CM Punk but every promotion has to take the plunge and try to leave the indies. your setting a bad example for your roster if you dont want to make it big.. they are going to have to work on their regional strongholds then tour Europe, Japan, and Mexico. They are at this point alot more stable and alot more responsible then ECW c. 1998 but they are not as big as ECW in the latter '90s. At some point they are going to need to lock their wrestlers down too.. But ROH is definitely what USWA could had hoped to had been and running shared shows with the WWF does not change the fact that ROH is ahead of USWA..