Rock Region, Minneapolis Subregion, First Round: (14) Raven vs. (19) Barry Windham

Discussion in 'Rock Region' started by klunderbunker, Mar 23, 2016.

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Who Wins This Match?

  1. Raven

  2. Barry Windham

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  1. klunderbunker

    klunderbunker Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House

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    This is a first round match in the Rock Region, Minneapolis Subregion. It is a standard one on one match. It will be held at the Target Center in Minneapolis, Minnesota.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    #14. Raven

    Vs.

    [​IMG]

    #19. Barry Windham



    Polls will be open for three days following a one day period for discussion. Voting will be based on who you feel is the greater of the two competitors. Post your reasons for why your pick should win below. Remember that this is non-spam and the most votes in the poll win. Any ties will be broken by the amount of posts of support for each candidate, with one vote per poster.

    Also remember that this is a non-spam forum. If you post a response without giving a reason for your selection, it will be penalized for spam and deleted.
     
    #1
  2. Pay Per Ghost

    Pay Per Ghost squashed Disco Inferno to become

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    Uhh I don't know maybe Windham.

    It maybe Raven; the fence is a nice place.
     
    #2
  3. SSJPhenom

    SSJPhenom The Phenom of WZ

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    Actually, I think that the numbers are backwards for these two.

    Windham had the better career. Was a member of the Four Horsemen at one time, a former NWA WHC, United States Champion, Tag Team Champion, Television Champion, and more.

    What's Raven's best time period? Leading a bunch of mid carders on Nitro?

    Vote Windham. Quote the Raven, never more.
     
    #3
  4. Alex

    Alex King Of The Wasteland

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    Nobody gives a shit about the horseman unless it's the original four. It's like the latter line ups of Guns N Roses. They did their job well but nobody gives a shit


    Everything Raven was

    Barry Windham's nephew is currently ripping off Raven and doing a shit job at it.

    Raven made what he was given work and work well. The fact that he's had a lasting impact and is being ripped off by his opponents nephew shows that he's important to the history of wrestling. I don't see anybody saying Barry Windham was one of their favourite wrestlers, but I do see people saying Raven was.
     
    #4
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  5. tdmoon

    tdmoon Pre-Show Stalwart

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    Barry Windham is easily one of my favorite wrestlers. Top five, even.

    Coming into this tournament, I was hoping to see Windham among the entrants. I didn't expect he would go really far in this tournament but hoped he'd at least get a decent showing. So of course I was happy when seeing his first round match was an easy one. This isn't even close.

    Raven was a great personality and was pretty relevant for about five years. He was a big deal in ECW and a medium sized deal in WCW. His WWF run was mostly notable for winning a bunch of hardcore championships, which means it wasn't really notable at all. Windham was a big deal in Florida(in which the talent level is easily the equal of ECW's), and a big deal in the NWA/WCW. He had a couple shitty WWF stints but also managed to win their World tag title twice.

    Raven was a pretty good wrestler and remembered for running with his Flock. They were a pretty entertaining and interesting group. Windham was running with the Four Horsemen, probably the most iconic stable in wrestling history. People who weren't watching wrestling then may not realize, but as a babyface, Windham was extremely popular. After his turn, he was always among the top heels in WCW. Raven had a really cool, dark persona and it was probably his best characteristic. Windham was no slouch in charisma, and got big reactions for a decade. He was the guy the NWA felt comfortable allying with the top faces to go after the Horsemen and that WCW felt comfortable putting into their most important product, the Horsemen.

    When I think of Raven, what really stands out are his feuds. He had a few classics in ECW; his stuff with Dreamer is legendary. Good as they were, they don't stack up with Windham going sixty minutes with Flair, or his feuds with the Horsemen or Dusty Rhodes or Lex Luger.

    In-ring wise, Raven was fair. His talent was in his character and storytelling. Windham was an exceptional performer, very solid technically and with good size. Their wrestling skills aren't even close. Huge advantage Windham.

    When comparing accomplishments, Windham is far superior. Raven's top prizes were a couple good ECW Heavyweight championship runs. He, like Windham, won a NWA World title. But the NWA was far more relevant when Windham was the champ than during Raven's reign. Windham won the US title and had a dominant run when it was still a very prestigious belt. Raven won it, too, when it didn't mean as much-and kept it for a day. Windham also won numerous titles in Florida, which was a very strong territory, a TV title and held the Western States strap.

    Raven had a lot of success as a tag wrestler, winning the ECW belts on a handful of occasions and even the WCW World titles. Even here, his resume pales to Windham's; Windham was a two-time WWF World Tag champion with Mike Rotunda, who he also won several Florida US tag titles with. He was an NWA World Tag titleholder with Tully Blanchard. He teamed with Ronnie Garvin to win a NWA US Tag title, teamed with his brother, Kendall to win a WCW World Tag title and then with Curt Hennig to win another. He's one of the more accomplished tag team competitors in history.

    Windham was much more technically sound, was a lot bigger, was quicker, and had more stamina. There weren't any ring skills he didn't have an advantage over Raven in. He held more titles, was a part of bigger storylines, spent more time at the top of the card and was over with fans for more than a decade.

    Raven was twisted and might try some of his psychological games, but it wouldn't affect Windham. Barry was a pro's pro who came from a wrestling family; he wouldn't get psyched out by Raven. After getting in the ring, Windham would be too good for Raven. Raven might get some short, occasional offense, but Windham picks him apart. The Flock may try some shit, but Tully and Arn(along with JJ's shoe) are more than a match for Raven's lackies. Windham superplexes Raven and makes him cry uncle to the claw, picking up the win in under ten minutes.
     
    #5
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  6. SSJPhenom

    SSJPhenom The Phenom of WZ

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    So anyone who's been in a cult like faction since Raven's Flock is ripping off Raven? So the Ministry of Darkness was a ripoff? SES too? I call bullshit.

    Say what you will but Windham has had the better career, impact, influence, and he beat better opponents than Raven did.

    Vote Windham
     
    #6
  7. Alex

    Alex King Of The Wasteland

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    You can call bullshit all you want, doesn't stop it from being true. Ever since Raven did The Flock pretty much every cult like stable has had an awful lot of similarities to it. That includes The Ministry Of Darkness, Straight Edge Society, Wyatt Family, James Storm's Revolution. They all follow the blueprint Raven and the Flock set out. That's just how good Raven was

    See above
     
    #7
  8. ServantofTwilight

    ServantofTwilight Pre-Show Stalwart

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    Except you are forgetting that Raven stole the idea. Kevin Sullivan was doing it years before in Florida. If anything everyone you mentioned copied Sullivan.
     
    #8
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  9. Rainbow Yaz

    Rainbow Yaz Sing about me, I'm dying of thirst
    E-Fed Mod

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    This is a very strong argument for Windham, while still giving Raven his due. Very well done.

    I think that this is going to be enough to sway me toward Windham, but a late rally from someone like NSL who is an ECW fan could sway me back toward Raven.
     
    #9
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  10. NSL

    NSL Life's A Bitch, And Then You Mosh

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    How about his time dominating ECW, and being one of the main reasons it became as popular as it was? It's already been noted that he got the gimmick from Sullivan, and it's been copied several times since, but who really did it the best? Raven.

    He's never given as much credit as he deserves for his in-ring skill, but his mic skills and character work are second to a handful of guys with names like Foley, Undertaker, Flair...

    Don't get me wrong. I liked Windham. But, aside from his short period of success, what else was he known for? He comes from wrestling royalty, yes, but that doesn't change that he was nothing outside of the NWA. Raven was huge in ECW, some of the best stuff on WCW while the nWo were dominating, and even managed to standout in WWF/E on separate runs.

    Raven wins. It may not be a blowout win, but he wins nonetheless.
     
    #10
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  11. Hollywood Naitch

    Hollywood Naitch The current reigning and defending

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    I think this is a match Raven could and would win.

    Raven is easily one of the most underrated talents in wrestling history. The entire gimmick was revolutionary and is still attempted to be duplicated today, although not being done as well as the original.

    Windham was a top level performer, there's no questioning that. It's why he was a NWA World Champion, and a member of the Horsemen. But, he was never THE man in a promotion, as Raven was in ECW for a period. Raven was the champion leading in to the first ever ECW PPV and some 2 of wrestling's most legendary feuds with Tommy Dreamer and The Sandman. I also loved his quest to fulfil his destiny in TNA of becoming the NWA World Heavyweight Champion, and the moment when he finally achieved it is one of my all time favourite moments in the business after being a fan of his for years.

    As good as Windham was, he tends to get forgotten about when talking about great/favourite wrestlers, while Raven is a long-time favourite of many. The gimmick still stands out today as one of the best, and for his superior mic skills, awesome look and devastating Evenflow DDT, I'm voting Raven.
     
    #11
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  12. nightmare

    nightmare ...7, 8, Better stay up late...

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    Both sides have merit. Barry can certainly hold his own in a fight & that is exactly what Raven would bring. The downfall for Raven here is that I just dont think he would beat Windham without being able to get a little extreme. I get that Raven is more than just a hardcore guy, but that is where he did some of his best work. When Windham was at his best he did it by being a bad son of a bitch.

    Too bad this isnt in the later gimmick rounds. I have to vote for Barry in this one.
     
    #12
  13. jmt225

    jmt225 Global Moderator

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    Can someone name me anything Barry Windham ever did besides have one forgettable NWA Title reign and have some good matches with Ric Flair? What else in his career is worth noting?

    Raven on the other hand is one of the most unique wrestlers in the history of pro wrestling. One could argue he is even one of the most influential wrestlers in the history of pro wrestling. He's a pioneer for hardcore wrestling and also even complex characters. His look alone made him something you could never forget.

    Raven was a massive part of ECW's success, and he went on to win various championships in WCW, WWE, and TNA. Not to mention he's maintained one of the biggest, most loyal cult fan bases any pro wrestler has ever had.

    Raven's impact on pro wrestling will always be remembered and cherished by a good portion of the audience. You can't say the same about Barry Windham. He was as generic as they came, and just because he had one NWA World Title reign and some good matches with Flair doesn't make him better than Raven.

    As far as kayfabe goes... this I'll admit is anyone's fight. Personally I see it going very similarly to how Raven vs. Terry Gordy went (Gordy's last great match I might add), but I can also see an argument being made in Windham's favor. Windham was very big, quick, and athletic, and had some impressive victories in his prime. However, Raven was as tough as they came and it's hard to picture Windham having anything in his arsenal that could put prime Raven out for the count. I give the slight edge to Raven, but again, I see the other side of the argument as well.

    Regardless, Raven should still advance for impact and legacy alone. He was the better overall pro wrestler with the more memorable career. Raven easily gets my vote.
     
    #13
  14. enviousdominous

    enviousdominous Behold my diction

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    Barry Windham was an amazing talent, and it's my understanding that Ric Flair respected him enough to want to drop the belt to him (which we all know didn't exactly pan out). On paper, there is no question that Barry Windham would easily win this match. But this isn't a contest based purely on who has the best resume.

    Raven made prowrestling different in a good way. Sure; his style somewhat derivative of Kevin Sullivan, but Kevin Sullivan hadn't used that gimmick in over a decade and for my money he didn't do it nearly as well as Raven. Raven is like a coherent Bray Wyatt, when he cut a promo there would be a lot of "what about me!?" but then if you really listened he would add some pretty subtle references to Shakespeare and ancient philosophers. Raven represented the grunge scene of that time better than any other performer, he was like an Eddie Vedder Curt Cobain hybrid. I really think that Raven was a victim of terrible booking in WCW.

    In this case I look at someone like Barry Windham who -- for my money -- never truly got over as well as the bookers had intended to get him, and I look at someone like Raven who -- also in my opinion -- got over in a world where he had no chance in hell of earning anything beyond the US Title. I don't refer much to ECW because I really don't think that ECW challenged Raven's potential. I think that Raven helped make Nitro more interesting during a time when every episode had to have a mandatory hour and a half of a horribly hacked together nWo sketch.

    I'm voting for the guy who deserves this win more, vote Raven.
     
    #14
  15. MrMojoRisin

    MrMojoRisin Championship Contender

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    That's not true.

    My favorite version of the Horsemen was the one with Flair, Anderson, Blanchard and Windham.



    Raven was a big deal in the #3 and smallest company in the era of National companies. The company that couldn't afford the best talent, and had to be extremely creative in order to make the most out of what they had. Raven, who had never been more than a mid-card act at best prior to joining ECW, was smart enough to recognize that he could either be a big fish in this small pond, or a small fish in the bigger ponds of WWE or WCW. He was smart enough to do that, and leverage it into good paydays in those bigger ponds later on... where he once again was never anything more than a mid-card act at best.

    Windham was at his peak in the very early days of the National company era, but even then, still rose to greater heights in the NWA/WCW than Raven ever did on a National stage... as well as in the WWF during his tag run in the US Express, which again was at a greater level than anything Raven did in WWE/WCW.

    Prior to those National company days, when it was just the territory system? Windham was at the top of the card in Florida, which was one of the bigger and better territories around. Actually probably pretty comparable in size and importance to ECW in fact. So Raven's peak... is one Windham matched. Windham's peak... is one Raven never reached.

    No Windham's nephew is currently 'ripping off' a guy he saw a lot of as a kid in that previously mentioned Florida territory. Kevin Sullivan. Raven 'ripped him off' too.

    Raven did do a great job with what he was given. Like I said, he was smart enough to recognize where he could be a star, and where he could be just another face, and stuck with the smaller company that made him a star, and allowed him to maximize what he earned in wrestling.

    That doesn't make him better than Windham though, because he wasn't.

    You don't see many on this board saying Windham is a favorite of theirs because honestly, most of this board doesn't bother with much pre-attitude era unless the WWE's told them to. Windham was and still is a favorite of mine. I always liked Raven too, but he was never on the same level.

    One of these guys you could trust to put in a main event with the champ that would sell out and send everyone home happy and excited for the next show. The other was a guy you could trust to give you a solid B storyline that would catch the attention of those who weren't interested in the main event. Barry Windham was the first guy.
     
    #15
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  16. Tastycles

    Tastycles Turn Bayley heel

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    I'm not going to pretend to be an expert or fan of either of these two guys. Honestly, Raven has mostly been the Hardcore guy to me and most of my exposure to Windham has been through tag team wrestling or when he was The Stalker. I don't think it's fair to either man to think about this as their peak, but that is the reality.

    What I will say is while Raven carved himself out a very good niche, I don't think he had the longevity of Windham. A win for either would be fine with me, but I went with Windham.
     
    #16
  17. NSL

    NSL Life's A Bitch, And Then You Mosh

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    I understand people remembering Raven for his hardcore antics in WWF/E, but his time in ECW was much more than that. There was certainly hardcore antics, but that was a great gimmick using the tools given to him. The same character that dominated ECW, also got over in WCW.

    And, I don't know about your argument concerning longevity. Windham's peak in the ring was...6-7 years? Raven's was '96-'02-ish? So 6 years? And which of these two is more remembered now?
     
    #17
  18. Pay Per Ghost

    Pay Per Ghost squashed Disco Inferno to become

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    Windham was amazing. I think I had the MId-South DVD and caught some of his stuff. Boy that bog boy could move! Promos were alright but a great hand overall.

    Raven was a genius and I don't think many people really realize that. You start following the dirtsheets and shoot interviews and realize some of the stuff that goes into making a character and come to the conclusion, Raven was so good. He was teh top star of his territory something Barry couldn't do on his own AND has a more memorable individual legacy.

    Raven for me.
     
    #18
  19. Rainbow Yaz

    Rainbow Yaz Sing about me, I'm dying of thirst
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    I gave my vote to Raven because after all the arguments, it comes down to Raven being more entertaining for me.
     
    #19
  20. The Brain

    The Brain King Of The Ring

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    Raven was a niche wrestler. He recognized that melon collie attitude that infected people in the mid 90s and ECW was the perfect place to become that character. It was quite the contrast from Scotty Flamingo and Johnny Polo. I enjoyed the gimmick but it just didn't work very well outside the Bingo Hall. Barry Windham was the overall better performer. Windham didn't even have to try. He was just naturally a great wrestler. Everyone remembers the Four Horsemen fondly and many people think the group was at its best with Windham. It's true Windham never took off as the top guy but he was always a respected challenger and always taken seriously as a threat. He had more success on a larger scale and is just a better talent than Raven.
     
    #20
  21. NSL

    NSL Life's A Bitch, And Then You Mosh

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    You're smarter than this Brain...First, it's melancholy, not melon collie, although that sounds delicious.

    Second...Really? Never worked outside the Bingo Hall? So that time in WCW, where the Flock was the only entertaining thing going on outside of the nWo was a sham? Or the time when the shitty Hardcore Title was really only interesting because Raven was involved?

    He was certainly at his best within ECW, but there's a very clear explanation why. He was given the creative freedom to do what he wanted to build his character. It was toned down in WCW, and even more so in WWF. And he was still a fan favorite in both those companies.
     
    #21
  22. Spidercanrana

    Spidercanrana Should've Reinstated The Fox
    Staff Member Moderator E-Fed Mod

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    Raven is the most decorated champion in WWE history, for what it's worth. Spastic Hardcore Title reigns, sure, but in an age where that was considered popular, I see nothing wrong with it. That and being one of the best talkers in wrestling gives him the vote for me.
     
    #22
  23. NSL

    NSL Life's A Bitch, And Then You Mosh

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    To fully understand just how great he was on the mic...He crucified a man inside the Bingo Hall, was forced to apologize, and was so good at kissing ass, that people accepted it. If you tried to crucify a man on TV now, you'd be blacklisted for life.
     
    #23
  24. The Brain

    The Brain King Of The Ring

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    Lol, that does sound pretty good. That was part of my mid 90s reference. Surely you remember Mellon Collie and The Infinite Sadness. That's what I think of when I think of Raven in ECW. I know you remember that album. I'm older than most on this forum but I'm not that old.

    I don't understand the appeal of the Flock. I admit to not watching a lot of WCW at that time but when I did watch I saw the Flock sitting around doing nothing. Raven was leading a bunch of nobodies. Sick Boy? Reese? Kidman did ok for himself after the Flock but nobody else was worth a damn. As for the Hardcore Title, you said yourself it was a shitty title so that's not a point in his favor. And I didn't find the title any more interesting when Raven held it compared to anyone else.

    Was he a fan favorite in both companies? Maybe a little more in WCW but he was still low card. He was nothing in the WWF. He never made any impact at all and it wasn't long before he became just another background guy in the Alliance.

    Look, I do understand the appeal of Raven. It was a great character for the time. In the overall scheme of things I just don't think he's better than Barry Windham.
     
    #24
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