Ric Flairs Championships

[yur_momma]

Hmmm this might be the first thread I have ever started...cant remember.

Anyway.

Im dying for the WWE sheep to see through Vince's rewritten history and stop saying Flair has 16 World Titles. My old age (37) makes me angry everytime i hear "16".
One person I know told me the first few NWA belts dont get counted because NWA wasnt "big enough". Bullshit...they were big enough for the WWF to put its World title on the line vs NWA's World title in matches (Backlund vs Race x3, vs Flair x1 and even AWA champ Bockwinkel x1) so it was in fact a recognized World title. In fact, in 1983, the WWF title is the one that was reduced to regional status by PWI (back then PWI had much, much more influence than it does now, so a title reduction really meant something in the era of wrestling magazines aka 70's and 80's. I still have my insanely large collection.)

So, as Peter Griffin mistakenly says, "without further dudes" here is the list:

1) NWA Championship - defeating Dusty Rhodes on 17th September 1981
2) EDITED OUT
3) NWA Championship - defeating Harley Race on 24th November 1983
4) NWA Championship - defeating Harley Race on 24th March 1984
5) NWA Championship - defeating Kerry Von Erich on 24th May 1984
6) NWA Championship - defeating Dusty Rhodes on 7th August 1986
7) NWA Championship - defeating Ron Garvin on 26th November 1987
8) NWA Championship - defeating Ricky Steamboat 7th May 1989
9) NWA Championship - defeating Sting on 11th January 1991
10) NWA Championship - defeating Tatsumi Fujinami on 19th May 1991
11) WWF Championship - winning the 1992 Royal Rumble
12) WWF Championship - defeating Randy Savage on 1st September 1992
13) NWA Championship - defeating Barry Windham 18th July 1993
14) WCW Championship - defeating Vader on 27th December 1993
15) WCW Championship - defeating Ricky Steamboat on 24th March 1994
16) WCW Championship - defeating Sting on 23rd June 1994
17) WCW Championship - defeating Randy Savage on 25th December 1995
18) WCW Championship - defeating Randy Savage on 11th February 1996
19) WCW Championship - defeating Hulk Hogan on 14th March 1999
20) WCW Championship - defeating Jeff Jarrett on 15th May 2000
21) WCW Championship - defeating Kevin Nash 29th May 2000

Now please tell me what 16 are recognized and which ones for some reason do not count.

On another note, Cena just might break the "16 title ceiling". So what. It still doesnt beat Flair and even if Cena gets 22 titles, it isnt anywhere near the same. First of all, the company he is in has TWO titles that count towards his total. Secondly, Flair was a hot commodity everywhere he went and earned his runs because he drew money for everyone everywhere. Cena was given the belt by writers with no other ideas. Just no comparison.

 

[The Suplexer Perfecter]

It's not Vince, it's just all around recognized title reigns. WCW didn't count some reigns either, and neither did the NWA.

When Backlund faced Race, they were apart of the NWA after they rejoined it in the 70s.

WCW had the NWA and WCW title during 1993, so they had two world titles.

Secondly, Flair was a hot commodity everywhere he went and earned his runs because he drew money for everyone everywhere. Cena was given the belt by writers with no other ideas. Just no comparison.

I don't think you're 37. A 37 year old wouldn't make that much of an ignorant, childish statement.

Cena is the biggest star today, and has performed in front of crowds far bigger than Flair.

Cena is a draw, deal with it.

 

[Paralyzer Z]

It's not Vince, it's just all around recognized title reigns. WCW didn't count some reigns either, and neither did the NWA.

When Backlund faced Race, they were apart of the NWA after they rejoined it in the 70s.

WCW had the NWA and WCW title during 1993, so they had two world titles.



I don't think you're 37. A 37 year old wouldn't make that much of an ignorant, childish statement.

Cena is the biggest star today, and has performed in front of crowds far bigger than Flair.

Cena is a draw, deal with it.

finally someone with common sesnse. flair was the biggest star back then, Cena is the star right now it only makes sense for him to hold the title all the time considering he is the buggest draw in sports entertainment today.

 

[Ruthless-RKO]

Cena is the biggest star today, and has performed in front of crowds far bigger than Flair.

Last time I checked, Cena hasn't performed infront of 150,000 - 190,000 fans back to backdays...

But even with that being said, fair enough, Flair has 21 world titles, and thats good, you can also argue that his later WCW reigns didn't mean shit because the title was just being tossed around..

 

[yur_momma]

I would argue that WWE is the draw not Cena. People will come to a WWE show with or without Cena, when he was injured for 4 months they didnt suffer any ill effects, people kept on buying.

 

[King Patrick Star]

I counted 22 for Ric Flair’s World Title reigns. I might be counting an NWA reign and a WCW reign which counts for one cause of the transition, but I may be wrong.

This is the same issue I have with Kurt Angle’s World Title reign count. I counted 13:

WWE (4 times)
WCW
World Heavyweight (WWE)
TNA (5 times)
IWGP
PPW

Just last week on Impact Wrestling, he said he was the 14 time Champion and on his entrance video it says 15 time World Champion. What are they counting that I’m missing exactly?? Are they counting his 2 “World” Tag Team Title reigns??

In either case, when it comes down to it, it doesn’t matter to me, because Kurt and Ric will always be number 4 and 5 respectively on my list of the G.O.A.T.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

When it comes to Ric Flair's overall World Championship wins, it's just this huge amalgam of problems that runs through multiple organizations.

When Flair won the NWA World Heavyweight Championship for the first time, he actually lost the title to Carlos Colon while touring Puerto Rico in early 1983. Flair won the title back 17 days later but the NWA doesn't recognize Colon's reign as official so, officially, Flair never "lost" to Colon. Flair lost the title for a brief 2 days to Harley Race in New Zealand in 1984 that the NWA has only begun to recognize within the past few years but was previously ignored. Then there was the whole debacle when the NWA & WCW officially parted company and the "WCW International" World Heavyweight Championship was introduced. WCW pretty much ignored these title runs as did WWE afterward. It's kind of long and complicated.

As of right now, the NWA recognizes Ric Flair as a 10 time NWA World Heavyweight Champion. I think that WCW & later WWE recognize him as an 8 or 9 champ. But as WWE doesn't own the NWA WHC, they have no official control over who the NWA recognizes or doesn't. Everyone pretty much ignores the WCW International WHC runs. I think Flair is recognized as a 6 time WCW WHC and a 2 time WWF Champion.

It's not just one person that decided upon this whole 16 time World Champion thing Flair has going. Even to this day, such as when Flair & Sting had their promo on TNA a few weeks back prior to their match, Flair called himself a 16 time World Champion.

 

[Davi323]

Great post, Jack-Hammer...as usual.

But I would be remiss if I didn't point out the absurdity of people getting their panties in a bunch over this. It's a TELEVISION PROP for fuck's sake! It doesn't mean a damn thing! Some people want to pretend that holding a heavyweight championship belt proves you are the best...when all it proves is that a couple of guys in the back, plus the owner of the company, decided they would allow you to have the belt. Wrestling titles are won and lost in the backrooms, not in the ring. IT DOESN'T MATTER how many championships Flair won or lost, because it's a meaningless accomplishment. The Great Khali won the WWE Heavyweight championship, Ricky Steamboat, Curt Hennig, Rick Rude, Roddy Piper, and a whole bunch of Hall of Famers never got to hold either WWE title...does that mean Khali is better than any of those guys? Fuck no. It just means that someone backstage, probably Vince McMahon, decided he wanted to increase his viewership in India, so he gave Khali the belt for a while.

Whether Ric Flair is credited with 16 titles, 22 titles, 899 thousand titles, it's irrelevant.

 

[yur_momma]

When it comes to Ric Flair's overall World Championship wins, it's just this huge amalgam of problems that runs through multiple organizations.

When Flair won the NWA World Heavyweight Championship for the first time, he actually lost the title to Carlos Colon while touring Puerto Rico in early 1983. Flair won the title back 17 days later but the NWA doesn't recognize Colon's reign as official so, officially, Flair never "lost" to Colon. Flair lost the title for a brief 2 days to Harley Race in New Zealand in 1984 that the NWA has only begun to recognize within the past few years but was previously ignored. Then there was the whole debacle when the NWA & WCW officially parted company and the "WCW International" World Heavyweight Championship was introduced. WCW pretty much ignored these title runs as did WWE afterward. It's kind of long and complicated.

As of right now, the NWA recognizes Ric Flair as a 10 time NWA World Heavyweight Champion. I think that WCW & later WWE recognize him as an 8 or 9 champ. But as WWE doesn't own the NWA WHC, they have no official control over who the NWA recognizes or doesn't. Everyone pretty much ignores the WCW International WHC runs. I think Flair is recognized as a 6 time WCW WHC and a 2 time WWF Champion.

It's not just one person that decided upon this whole 16 time World Champion thing Flair has going. Even to this day, such as when Flair & Sting had their promo on TNA a few weeks back prior to their match, Flair called himself a 16 time World Champion.

Fantastic post

While no post could fully explain the mess that is the world title history, this does help to explain alot. And wow about Carlos Colon, i didnt know that story.

Does anyone know which 16 WWE recognizes?

 

[Tastycles]

Last time I checked, Cena hasn't performed infront of 150,000 - 190,000 fans back to backdays...

If the WWE put a show on in North Korea and the headline match was Henry Godwin against Hillbilly Jim in an evening gown match, it would still draw 150,000 people. In the United States, Flair has never consistently drawn stadium sized audiences. In John Cena's career, WrestleMania has gone from being in places like MSG, to being in massive stadia every single year.

I would argue that WWE is the draw not Cena. People will come to a WWE show with or without Cena, when he was injured for 4 months they didnt suffer any ill effects, people kept on buying.

Firstly, the ratings normally do drop when Cena isn't there. Secondly, the NWA didn't suffer agreat deal when Flair went to WWF in the early 90s, and Flair wasn't able to swing the audience in their favour over the WWF at any point in the 80s, when he was the number one guy. Within 2 years of Hogan moving, they acheived that. Flair was certainly not the biggest draw of his era, Cena certainly is.

Does anyone know which 16 WWE recognizes?

Of your original list, the bold are recognised.

1) NWA Championship - defeating Dusty Rhodes on 17th September 1981
EDITED OUT - regional title
2) NWA Championship - defeating Harley Race on 24th November 1983
N/A) NWA Championship - defeating Harley Race on 24th March 1984 - Not included because on an international tour, later recognised by WCW so they could call him a 9 time champion without mentioning WWF
3) NWA Championship - defeating Kerry Von Erich on 24th May 1984
4) NWA Championship - defeating Dusty Rhodes on 7th August 1986
5) NWA Championship - defeating Ron Garvin on 26th November 1987
6) NWA Championship - defeating Ricky Steamboat 7th May 1989
7) NWA Championship - defeating Sting on 11th January 1991
N/A) NWA Championship - defeating Tatsumi Fujinami on 19th May 1991 - Not included because on an international tour, later recognised by WCW so they could call him a 9 time champion without mentioning WWF
8) WWF Championship - winning the 1992 Royal Rumble
9) WWF Championship - defeating Randy Savage on 1st September 1992
N/A) NWA Championship - defeating Barry Windham 18th July 1993 - not included as the WCW Championship existed at this point, and this title sort of morphed into being the WCW International title
10) WCW Championship - defeating Vader on 27th December 1993
N/A) WCW Championship - defeating Ricky Steamboat on 24th March 1994 - the title was held up, then flair won a decider, this is seen as a continuation of the reign starting against Vader.
11) WCW Championship - defeating Sting on 23rd June 1994
12) WCW Championship - defeating Randy Savage on 25th December 1995
13) WCW Championship - defeating Randy Savage on 11th February 1996
14) WCW Championship - defeating Hulk Hogan on 14th March 1999
15) WCW Championship - defeating Jeff Jarrett on 15th May 2000
16) WCW Championship - defeating Kevin Nash 29th May 2000

 

[Jericho Hill]

If the WWE put a show on in North Korea and the headline match was Henry Godwin against Hillbilly Jim in an evening gown match, it would still draw 150,000 people. In the United States, Flair has never consistently drawn stadium sized audiences. In John Cena's career, WrestleMania has gone from being in places like MSG, to being in massive stadia every single year.

wow you do a really good job of stating things as facts, that aren't and then stating things that just have no relevance at all to anything. Yes wrestlemania was routinely held in place like MSG back in the day but have you noticed that it was that way even when hogan was champion? Are you saying hogan couldn't draw as well as Cena? because that's what your post seems to indicate.

WM 1: Madison Square Garden; New York, NY - 19,121
WM 2: Nassau Coliseum; Uniondale, NY - 16,585
WM 2: Rosemont Horizon (Allstate Arena); Chicago, IL - 9,000
WM 2: Los Angeles Sports Arena; Los Angeles, CA - 14,500
WM 3: Pontiac Silverdome; Detroit, MI - 93,173
WM 4: Trump Plaza; Atlantic City, NJ - 19,199
WM 5: Trump Plaza; Atlantic City, NJ 20,369

now the last five WM have been like this.

WM 23: Ford Field; Detroit, MI - 80,109
WM 24: Citrus Bowl; Orlando, FL - 74,635
WM 25: Reliant Stadium; Houston, TX - 72,744
WM 26: University of Phoenix Stadium; Glendale, AZ - 72,219
WM 27: Georgia Dome; Atlanta, GA - 71,617

OMG CENA outdraws HOGAN! Oh and I can keep going, from WM 1 to WM 22 the WWE drew 50,000 or more in attendance how many times? 6 times, guess Cena's a bigger draw than Austin, Hogan and the Rock put together! No of course he's not, and Cena had little to do with it being move to bigger venues. Thank Austin, Rock, and Hogan for making Vinny BILLIONS, Vince wants Mania to seem HUGE every year now because it's a chance to get some of the fans from the attitude era back with guys like Rock and Austin. That's why vince brings them back. Cena is the biggest star in the world, when there's no competition, Flair had Hogan and Vince to deal with, Cena has Bobby Roode and Dixie Carter. let's not lose perceptive here. Hulk Hogan, nor Steve Austin, nor the Rock put up numbers like Cena is putting up, that doesn't make him a greater draw, and if you want to argue that he is, I'd love to hear that. Because Cena's numbers are just as squewed as you claim flair's numbers in korea to be. BTW the WWE went to korea in 2003 and they didn't have any shows with 150,000 plus fans. I guess Hillbilly Jim and Henry Godwin would bring those numbers in, even if Kurt Angle and Triple H couldn't. Ouch.

Firstly, the ratings normally do drop when Cena isn't there. Secondly, the NWA didn't suffer agreat deal when Flair went to WWF in the early 90s, and Flair wasn't able to swing the audience in their favour over the WWF at any point in the 80s, when he was the number one guy. Within 2 years of Hogan moving, they acheived that. Flair was certainly not the biggest draw of his era, Cena certainly is.

Oh and the NWA didn't suffer when flair left? Really? you're wrong, the audience hated that flair left and alot of the NWA fans did switch the channel when flair left, not only that but at the biggest PPV of the year the Great American Bash, during the event The fans were cheering 'WE WANT FLAIR' during the WHOLE SHOW! That would be like Jeff Hardy's name being chanted at this years wrestlemania throughout! Yeah, he had no effect at all, Jim Herd even offered flair more money to come back after flair who was the top draw in the NWA at that time, left. but I guess he did that just for the hell of it. Herd was fired like two months after that, I'm sure that had nothing to do with flair, and I'm sure that the NWA didn't suffer ALOT even though at every show they were shouting "We want flair". Damn I wish I had no impact like that..

you like cena, great so do I. But your logic is faulty to say the least. Comparing the two is silly, unless you want to say Cena's a bigger draw than hogan and for the love of God don't!

 

[mikde_]

i hate when people say "Cena isnt a big a draw as Austin" or "Rock isnt a big a draw as Hogan" ect.

Wrestling evolves, Fan bases grow and decrease as every year goes by. To compare the current to the past and try back it by fact is just stupid because too many different circumstances have changed since then.

 

[Jericho Hill]

i hate when people say "Cena isnt a big a draw as Austin" or "Rock isnt a big a draw as Hogan" ect.

Wrestling evolves, Fan bases grow and decrease as every year goes by. To compare the current to the past and try back it by fact is just stupid because too many different circumstances have changed since then.

Which is basically what I just said in a mocking type fashion. I basically view it this way, MOST people tend to think Hogan's a bigger draw than Cena, same for the Rock and austin. Comparing them simply by numbers is a flawed concept at best. Which was exactly what I was saying........

No offense, it just seemed that your post was directed at me since I'm the only guy using 'facts' in here.

 

[mikde_]

Which is basically what I just said in a mocking type fashion. I basically view it this way, MOST people tend to think Hogan's a bigger draw than Cena, same for the Rock and austin. Comparing them simply by numbers is a flawed concept at best. Which was exactly what I was saying........

No offense, it just seemed that your post was directed at me since I'm the only guy using 'facts' in here.

oh i didnt realise, sorry about that. I did not read your post.

When i said about facts it was directed at the people who bring up the numbers hogan or rock or whoever wrestled in front of, or the ratings they drew and then compare it to someone else from a different time and era.

 

[Tastycles]

wow you do a really good job of stating things as facts, that aren't and then stating things that just have no relevance at all to anything. Yes wrestlemania was routinely held in place like MSG back in the day but have you noticed that it was that way even when hogan was champion? Are you saying hogan couldn't draw as well as Cena? because that's what your post seems to indicate.

WM 1: Madison Square Garden; New York, NY - 19,121
WM 2: Nassau Coliseum; Uniondale, NY - 16,585
WM 2: Rosemont Horizon (Allstate Arena); Chicago, IL - 9,000
WM 2: Los Angeles Sports Arena; Los Angeles, CA - 14,500
WM 3: Pontiac Silverdome; Detroit, MI - 93,173
WM 4: Trump Plaza; Atlantic City, NJ - 19,199
WM 5: Trump Plaza; Atlantic City, NJ 20,369

now the last five WM have been like this.

WM 23: Ford Field; Detroit, MI - 80,109
WM 24: Citrus Bowl; Orlando, FL - 74,635
WM 25: Reliant Stadium; Houston, TX - 72,744
WM 26: University of Phoenix Stadium; Glendale, AZ - 72,219
WM 27: Georgia Dome; Atlanta, GA - 71,617

OMG CENA outdraws HOGAN! Oh and I can keep going, from WM 1 to WM 22 the WWE drew 50,000 or more in attendance how many times? 6 times, guess Cena's a bigger draw than Austin, Hogan and the Rock put together! No of course he's not, and Cena had little to do with it being move to bigger venues. Thank Austin, Rock, and Hogan for making Vinny BILLIONS, Vince wants Mania to seem HUGE every year now because it's a chance to get some of the fans from the attitude era back with guys like Rock and Austin. That's why vince brings them back. Cena is the biggest star in the world, when there's no competition, Flair had Hogan and Vince to deal with, Cena has Bobby Roode and Dixie Carter. let's not lose perceptive here. Hulk Hogan, nor Steve Austin, nor the Rock put up numbers like Cena is putting up, that doesn't make him a greater draw, and if you want to argue that he is, I'd love to hear that. Because Cena's numbers are just as squewed as you claim flair's numbers in korea to be.

You've totally missed my point, but maybe I didn't make it clear. WrestleManias 1 and 2 were unknown quantities, gradually growing in size. WrestleMania III was bigger than anything Cena wrestled, then WrestleManias IV and V were held by Trump for a big sack of money. By number VI, they were back in a stadium. That's not the point I'm making though. When wrestling has draws, WrestleMania goes large - in Hogan's day he had stadia, Austin and the Rock had stadia, at WrestleMania 17,18 and 19 but after that WWE retreated to Arenas for WrestleManias 20, 21, 22 before Cena led them back to Stadia once again. I'm not saying that Cena's numbers are more impressive than Hogan's, I'm saying that he took the WWE back to bigger shows than they had in the 3 or so years before he was undisputedly on top, Flair has never had such an impact.

BTW the WWE went to korea in 2003 and they didn't have any shows with 150,000 plus fans. I guess Hillbilly Jim and Henry Godwin would bring those numbers in, even if Kurt Angle and Triple H couldn't. Ouch.

South Korea and North Korea are different countries. If you're going to try and be a smart arse, it's worth checking out your facts first. South Korea (where WWE went in 2003) - growing country with access to lots of western culture, North Korea (Where Flair went) - closed state ruled by mentalist, no access to aything western. It's not surprising which one shit the bed about wrestling being in town.

Oh and the NWA didn't suffer when flair left? Really? you're wrong, the audience hated that flair left and alot of the NWA fans did switch the channel when flair left, not only that but at the biggest PPV of the year the Great American Bash, during the event The fans were cheering 'WE WANT FLAIR' during the WHOLE SHOW! That would be like Jeff Hardy's name being chanted at this years wrestlemania throughout!

They still paid to be there. The fact is that the ratings, PPV buys and attendances stayed fairly consistent when he left, though the latter did drop a little. When Cena left in late 2008, the rating dropped 0.4 almost immediately. Audience complaining is not great, obviously, but it's not as big a deal as losing more than 10% of the television audience.

Yeah, he had no effect at all, Jim Herd even offered flair more money to come back after flair who was the top draw in the NWA at that time, left. but I guess he did that just for the hell of it. Herd was fired like two months after that, I'm sure that had nothing to do with flair, and I'm sure that the NWA didn't suffer ALOT even though at every show they were shouting "We want flair". Damn I wish I had no impact like that..

Look, when Flair came back, what happened? Nothing. Executives were still getting sacked, the crowds were still complaining, and NWA carried on being second rate and second best. Perhaps no impact was a bit strong, but the guy was implying Cena had less of an impact, when the ratings, PPV buys and attendances say otherwise. Again, I reiterate, I'm not looking at the raw numbers, I'm looking at the difference immediately before and after. There's no point stating Flair drew 3.9 and Cena drew 4.0 on television or whatever, because you can compare it. You can compare the fact that a clash of the champions ratings before, during and after Flair's absence and see they remain almost dead level. You can look at the same thing in Cena's 2008 absence and see them fall by 0.4 and then rise again.

you like cena, great so do I. But your logic is faulty to say the least. Comparing the two is silly, unless you want to say Cena's a bigger draw than hogan and for the love of God don't!

I don't particularly like Cena, but you've missed the point entirely if you got that from my post. Cena has more of an impact against the wrestling background in his era than Flair did in his in terms of making a financial and popularity difference. Anyway, we're greatly off topic here, so I'll finish by saying Flair won 16 world championships in an era when title reigns of 2 months were considered short, Cena will win more when it changes hands more frequently. You're correct, the comparison shouldn't be made in the first place, but I'm not the person making it.

 

[ProudFlairMark]

The NWA didn't suffer as a result of Flair leaving? You sure about that? I would argue that attendance, ratings, PPV buys all suffered a great deal. It's essentially the reason Jim Herd lost his job? Also, Flair not a drawer? Short of Hulk Hogan, he was the most sure fire draw of the 80's and early 90's. I wonder where you are getting your facts from.

 

[FlairFan2003]

Flair's official title history as counted on TV, Pro Wrestling Illustrated, etc runs like this...
1.) NWA Title vs Dusty Rhodes, 1981 - never disputed
2.) NWA Title - Harley Race, Starrcade 83 - Never disputed
There was a situation where Flair and Race traded the title back to elevate interest in matches in Siungapoe in 1984, this was never officially validated by the NWA, was not acknowledged at the time by PWI, officially it did not happen.

Flair spent a lot of time in the early 80's through 1985 taking independent bookings when he had time off from NWA commitments, he was one of the biggest drawing superstars in Japan for instance. As with the famous Jack Veneno story from South America that Flair details in his auto biography, occassionally he would "lose" the title without NWA permission to help draw interest for a return match, the "win" the title back and leave the territory was NWA champ. He did this a few times overseas, like the "Singapore Title Swap" but because these were not official NWA title switches US wrestling magazines, newspapers, and NWA TV never acknowledged them as actual title changes.

3.) NWA Title, Kerry Von Erich, May 1984 - Flair draws over 43,000 fans to Texas Stadium for his most famous showdown in his popular feud with the Von Erichs when Kerry grabs the title, only to lose cleanly vs Flair a few weeks later in a best of 3 falls match in Japan.

4) NWA Title, Dusty Rhodes, Aug 1986
5.) NWA Title, Ron Garvin, Starrcade 87 - Flair is clearly called a "5 Time Champion" by the announcers after this match

6) NWA Title - Ricky Steamboat, May 1989 - Flair is consistently referred to as a 6 time champion on TV and in PWI and their sister publications

7) WCW Title - Sting, Jan 1991 - After Ted Turner bought the company from the Crocketts in 89 they resisted a name change, Flair is the first champion referred to as "WCW Champ" on TV by announcers - PWI starts calling the company WCW instead of the NWA, same company, same wrestlers, re branded name, kind of like WWF vs WWWF vs WWE

8) WWF Title - Royal Rumble 92
9) WWF Title - Randy Savage, Sept 92

By 1986 Jim Crockett had put a stop to Flair's independent bookings, although he was allowed to tour Japan one or twice a year as long as he faced Japan wrestling stars and did no more unauthorized title swaps. In 1983 Flair helped pack Atlanta's Omni for a title vs title match with WWF Champ Bob Backlund, in 1985 Flair sold out in Japan for a title vs title match vs AWA Champ Rick Martel. With Vince McMahon's WWF surging Crockett didn't want Flair making money for any promoters other than him. His title lineage is pretty clear cut till the mid 90's

10) NWA Title, Barry Whyndam, Great American Bash 1993 - A complicated scenario had the old NWA Board of Directors trying to ressurect the brand in association with WCW, but as separate titles. WCW TV called Flair a 9 time champ when he returned from WWF, though they never explained how he left two years earlier as a 7 time champ. This revived NWA title was treated as a World Title, and Flair is credited on WCW TV as 10 time champion following the win

11) WCW Title - Vader, Starrcade 93 - There was story following a double pin vs Steamboat in Feb 94 where the WCW title was held up, at Flair's request, until he beats Steamboat outright in a rematch. However, WCW never acknowledges his 11'th reign as ending. Flair beats Steamboat cleanly on TV, and briefly the announcers call him a 12 time champion but WCW quickly backtracks and he is an 11 time champion heading into his next PPV match vs Whyndam as the promotion for Hogan's arrival starts

12) Randy Savage, Starrcade 95 - It should be noted that by early 94 the brief NWA revival had ended and WCW just changed the name of the existing champion, who I believe was Rick Rude, to it's International Champion. Sting ended up with this title in May 94, in June 94 WCW, seeing the confusion about a World vs International Champ, killed the title altogether with a Unification Match where 11 Titme WCW Champ Flair pins Sting, a big win setting up his initial PPV bout vs Hogan. This was never treated as a new title reign, thus Flair's win over Savage in 95 is called his 12'th title by WCW and PWI.

13) WCW Title, Randy Savage, Feb 1996 - In the spring of 96, after losing this title to Big Show, Eric Bischoff and Bobby Heenan, calling a Flair match on Nitro, refer to him as a 15 time champion with Bischoff making smart remarks claiming "those title weren't wrestling titles", a veiled reference to his two WWF wins, used to insult WWF. WCW never officially changes his lineage to reflect 13 titles without the WWF championships

14) WCW Title - Hulk Hogan - March 1999 - Flair had at least one official title reign in WWF or WCW every year from 1981-1996.

15) WCW Title, Jeff Jarret, May 2000 -

Now it gets murky. Flair is referenced as 15 time champion following this win by WCW TV. If you remember Flair was hurt and Russo stripped him of the belt on TV, awarding it back to Jarret, who promptly lost to kevin Nash, who "awarded" the title back to Flair when he returned because "you never lost it". WWE lists this as the 16th title. WCW wavered on this, was it a new reign or a continuation of reign 15, which would invalidate reigns by Jarret & Nash. After Flair loses the title to Jarret, he is called a 15 time champion on WCW TV, watch the final Nitro when he is introduced for his promo, even then a year later they stilled called him 15 time champ.

There has been some effort over the years to recognize the Singapore Title Swap as legit but officially by WWE it is not counted. WWE does recognize the Kevin Nash situation as reign 16, which in turn should add 1 reign each to Jarret and Nash in the title history.

 

[FlairFan2003]

As far as these arguments about Flair as a draw vs Cena, did anyone see that research piece done maybe two years ago, by Meltzer I think, ranking the Top 10 draws each year from 1980 through 2008, based on house show and PPV attendance, etc...Flair was No. 1 in all of wrestling at least three time during that span, I believe 1983 (before Hulk Hogan takes off), 1992 with WWE and 1995. Flair spent most of the 80's second to Hogan, but above Dusty Rhodes, Randy Savage, etc. Flair also ranked in the Top 10 while wrestling full time in 1996, 1999, and as recently as 2007, although it should be noted that in this last decade there hasn't been as much competition - Ranking 6'th in 1999 with both WCW & WWE going strong is impressive, more so than the same ranking now with little competition domestically.

Flair's 1984 Main Event vs Kerry Von Erich drew over 43,000 fans in Texas Stadium, his match a year later vs Kevin drew over 30,000. The NWA sold out the stadium in Charlotte for Great American Bash in 1985 which Flair headlined vs Nikita Kollloff. Over 68,000 attended WM 8 where Flair was very heavily promoted by WWE as champ defending vs Randy Savage. He also drew crowds over 50,000 for matches in Japan in the early 90's.

The early Starrcades, when adding in the closed circuit viewing to the live attendance, were each viewed by audiences in the 50-60,000 range, one of the reasons they were drawing gates around a million dollars in a day when ticket prices rarely exceeded $10.

Flair's TV ratings were consistently high during the Nitro days, the main reason he was chosen as Champ for most of the 1st year the show was on TV from Dec 05 through April 06, carrying the program fairly well vs RAW untill the whole NWO explosion put WCW completely over top WWE.

WCW PPV revenue did increase significantly when Flair returned from WWE in 1993, with Starcade 93 the biggest success the company had in that arena until Flair vs Hogan in 94.

The heavily promoted Flair-Brett Hart match carried the usually weak performing Jan Souled Out PPV to buyrates almost equal to WWE's signature Royal Rumble, also that month, in 1998. Remember, back when both companies staged monthly PPV, usually the event seen as more marque by fans outdrew the other company. RR usually crushed SOuled Out, but Feb Super Brawl typically way outdrew WWE's less relevant In Your House events, etc. Nothing in April could compete with WM but WWE couldn't find an event to outdraw July's annual Great American Bash event. WCW's Oct PPV Halloween Havoc usually outdrew WWE events but their PPV's in Nov always lost vs Survivor Series. WWE's minor PPV never took much business away from Starrcade in Dec. This was pretty much the rule during the Monday Night Wars era, at least until 1999.

Lets not forget the ratings for Flair vs Sting at Clash 1 not only outdrew the sports programming on the regular networks (the match aired on Cable's TBS) but was watched by so many people it was estimated at the time more wrestling fans watched Flair vs Sting than watched Randy Savage win the WWF Title that same day and time on PPV at WrestleMania - McMahon was so furious he promised to pull future PPV events unless the cable operators could convince Ted Turner never to air a WCW wrestling special on his TV stations opposite a WWE PPV.

Flair vs Hogan at the Clash in Aug 94 was the most watched wrestling match on TV that year, with a rating just under 8. WCW wouldn't see numbers that big until they rebroadcast the Halloween Havoc 98 title match Goldberg vs DDP which had been cut off accidentally on the previous night's PPV.

Flair was a huge draw, one of the biggest ever, both in the US and internationally, and he remained a top draw for more than 25 years. Cena, in an era where RAW is lucky to break a 4.0 rating without any wrestling competition, has a way to go before he is in the arena. Although to all the anti Cena ppl who post here, realistically he is the biggest draw the company has right now and he deserves some credos for that

 

[FlairFan2003]

It also isnt fair to give all the credit for a large crowd to the match in the main event, realistically it the top two or three matches that draw fans, not just the main event, unless we are just talking TV ratings when you can flip channels vs paying for a PPV or buying a ticket to a show.

For example, Flair's match vs HBK at WM 24 was one the most heavily promoted bouts on the card, I'd say in terms of pre match hype it was definatley in the Top 3 along with Taker-Edge and The Big Show cross over boxing event, it definatley got more promo time heading into WM thah Cena's triple threat match vs Orton/HHH.

I wouldnt give Flair all the credit for WM 8 attendance although his World Title match vs Savage was definatley a hugely promoted PPV centerpiece. If you were watching back then you remember that Hogan's match vs Sid was billed as his "Retirement" and there was a lot of emphasis on Brett Hart vs Piper. Flair & Savage may have been the World Title match but I'm nt sure they would have sold out the Indianapolis Hosier Dome without the other two.

Hogan-Andre was clearly the centerpiece of WM 3 but WWE invested a lot of promo time into Savage/Steamboat that year. Savage's Win or Retire Match vs Ultimate Warrior at WM 6 was a huge part of that show's success.

Having hometown hero Flair in the main event certainly helped pack Charlotte's Memorial Stadium for Great American Bash 85, but Dusty Rhodes had a very heavily promoted undercard match in a Steel Cage vs Tully Blanchard. Likelwise, as big a finacial success as Starrcade 85 was with Flair vs Dusty in the World Title Match, a lot of emphasis was placed on the "I Quit" Match pitting Blanchard vs Magnum TA, a show stealing undercard bout as big as Flair-HBK at WM 24 or Savage-Steamboat at WM3.