Nobody can deny that Angle is an awsome wrestler and a gold medal winner but in reality the ankle lock is lame compaired to the sharpshooter. It looks like it is increadibly easy to escape threw roll threw or just turning over and kicking your opponant in the jaw. I always thought Angle should have had a better move than the leg lock. As for Bret in submission matches, nobody has brought up his up bringing in the Dungeon! He was raised by a father who would ligitamatly apply submission holds and send his kids to school with thier eyeballs red from broken blood vessels from the pressure applied. Brets upbringing and submission background from shoot wrestling technics provide a sufficiant counter to Angles intensity. Bret was no slouch as a amature wrestler either so I still think Hart should go over on this one. This matchup would have been one for the ages as two of the most technical wrestlers locked it up.
Rd. 1 Submission - Bret Hart (CAN) vs Kurt Angle (USA)
- Thread starter IrishCanadian25
- Start date
Ok, then cancel them out. Either way, it makes no difference, whatsoever. (As if Hart could've escaped from the move, anyway.)
I'm merely stating that Angle did something that Hart didn't. Just in the same way that Hart defeated Austin in a submission match and Angle didn't.
These were just statistics that I listed... nothing more. I have to list them in the interest of fairness. We're comparing Angle to Hart... not Luger, not Sting, and certainly not your boyfriend Vader. Picking my stats apart by including the likes of Luger really has no bearing on this.
Well good for him. So I guess HBK has an advantage in ladder matches over Edge just because he was in the first one and "popularized the art form"?? Your logic makes no sense and has no bearing here.
You kicked me in the balls with your bare foot but I just kicked you with a steel-toed boot.
I love how everyone is choosing to view this matchup so one-dimensionally. This isn't a match where Angle puts Bret in an Angle Lock and we wait patiently to see if Bret would tap from it (or reverse it) and then they stop and reverse the positions using the Sharpshooter. This is a submission MATCH. If you still don't understand what I'm saying, then I'll spell it out a little better for all of you... they actually WRESTLE in this match, too.
Most of the readers' logic in this is "BRETTS SHARPSHUTRZ BETR THN ANGELS LEG LOK SO HEE WINZ" and this is a crappy way to decide the winner. Both men are extremely skilled in the ring, and in the end, they have to utilize their skills in order to lock in the submission of their choosing on their opponent. This can be a figure four, sleeper hold, sharpshooter, ankle lock, octupus hold, or the finger poke of doom.
I feel that the difference-maker here is the skillsets possessed by both of these men. One is a master inside of a pro-wrestling ring. The other is a master inside a wrestling ring, a Greco-Roman wrestling mat, and is very skilled inside of an octagon. Angle just has a more diverse arsenal and can devise more ways to lock in his submissions on Bret.
Not to mention Angle's stamina is absolutely off the charts. Bret's competed in an hour-long Ironman match. But Kurt Angle has trained for the Olympics which involved what he refers to as "Exhaustion Training." He would run sprints up and down hills in Philidelphia and when he was exhausted to the point of where he would almost fall over, THAT'S when he would start his real wrestling practice to prepare for the Olympics. Sorry Bret... not even you can keep up with this.
This is not a matter of saying that Bret is bad, unskilled, or doesn't have stamina. It just means that Kurt Angle just happens to be better in these categories.
Mighty NorCal
SHALL WE BEGIN?
uuuuummm, WHAT THE FUCK? Er, yes it DOES mean something here, since this is basically the same rules and purpose of an olympic type contest, its a fucking submission match man, the entire purpose is to use wrestling holds to make someone tap out
to say it means NOTHING here is pretty damn absurdMonkey_Mania
I Am The One Who Knocks
Yeah, this is stupid. Kurt Angle knows millions of wrestling moves, not only pro, but amateur as well that would wear down Bret Hart. People talk about him being able to roll out of the Ankle Lock, well what the fuck. So what. I've seen people throw Bret Hart off them with their legs. You're telling me someone as strong as Angle couldn't do that? I call bullshit. Angle uses the ankle lock and drops it into a grapevine, where does Hart go from there. He either taps, or gets his ankle broke. Then after his ankle breaks, I'm damn sure everytime Angle applies it, Hart would tap the fuck out.
Still have to reiterate, Hart did beat Austin in a submission match, But Kurt Angle flat out made Austin tap out at Unforgiven 2001. I think Kurt Angle is the only person to beat both Hogan and Austin via tap out, probably the most impressive submission stat you'll find this side of the pond. Let alone that Angle made Taker tap out (although he was pinned simulataneously) heading into Vengeance 2002. Kurt Angle flat out makes everyone tap.
Viola Moonlight
I'm Literally Just Here for WZCW
Does everyone forget that the Ankle Lock has the Grapevine attachment that Angle pulls out when he knows the opponent is going to tap? What in God's name can Bret Hart utilise without breaking the rules to completely lock in the submission without someone escaping? Sure, he can lean back a little more, but considering the contest this is going to be, the sweat/fatigue from Bret could make locking in the Sharpshooter a little difficult. With the Ankle Lock, Angle can grapevine the leg first and then twist ankle. He can get you from a kick into the Ankle Lock. He can perform a takedown into the Ankle Lock. He can hurricanrana into a Ankle Lock. Angle needs to be down and out before Bret can cross the legs to lock in the Sharpshooter.
And what is the first thing you do in a Sharpshooter? You put your leg in between the opponents legs. Guess what could happen? ANKLE LOCK! How does anyone not get how much better Angle is with just the submission finisher? And the fact that he was an olympic amateur wrestler, where Bret trained in the Dungeon. I'm pretty sure the Dungeon was a dangerous place, but to become an OLYMPIC wrestler... you have to sacrifice a lot more. I don't even need to get started in Angle's MMA experiences.
Kurt Angle will defeat Bret Hart.
And what is the first thing you do in a Sharpshooter? You put your leg in between the opponents legs. Guess what could happen? ANKLE LOCK! How does anyone not get how much better Angle is with just the submission finisher? And the fact that he was an olympic amateur wrestler, where Bret trained in the Dungeon. I'm pretty sure the Dungeon was a dangerous place, but to become an OLYMPIC wrestler... you have to sacrifice a lot more. I don't even need to get started in Angle's MMA experiences.
Kurt Angle will defeat Bret Hart.
I'm gonna have to go with Bret Hart here. At first it seemed a far more difficult choice than that, until I really began to think about it, and realized that Kurt Angle absolutely 100% is not a submission wrestler, and Bret Hart very much is. Angle has one submission move, the ankle lock. That's literally it. Whereas if you've ever seen Bret and his brothers just fucking around in the dungeon, you'd see just the multitude of submission moves that Bret and every other Hart boy could perform with ease. More than that, Hart's just simply the tougher man of the two in my opinion, Angle has been beaten by just about everyone in the game a multitude of times whereas beating Hart really actually meant something and instantly legitimized the careers of guys like Austin, Nash, and Hall.
I don't know, this would be a tough one, and it's a dream match up every wrestling fan has pondered at one point, but I just do not see Angle being able to beat Hart in his own game, not a Dungeon boy.
I don't know, this would be a tough one, and it's a dream match up every wrestling fan has pondered at one point, but I just do not see Angle being able to beat Hart in his own game, not a Dungeon boy.
Thank you Mr Eko for stating that so well! A submission match is right up Brets alley. He was raised by one of the most famous, brutal submission shooters - the future WWE hall of famer Stu Hart. I think Bret would pull alot of tricks out of the bag before utilizing the piledriver to stun Angle long enough to get the sharpshooter on in the middle of the ring. The sharpshooter can also be modified easily to reach around with a free arm and wrench the neck even more placing pressure on the neck and back. If this was just a wrestling match , it's Angle all the way after a very long hard battle. This is a submission match, a match Hart was born for! The Dungeon training is going to squeek this one out for Hart over the wrestling master Angle
ckoneagain
Pre-Show Stalwart
Im glad Kurt Angle is winning this one, i mean nothing from Bret, but Kurt has shiney gold proof that he was at least at some point in his career, the best in the world, Bret on the other hand has some people tell him that and his own ego...i know which i'd prefer as proof of who's better
IrishCanadian25
Going on 10 years with WrestleZone
During a phone conversation with D-Man today, I made my decision.
I am actually backing Kurt Angle. Here's why.
1. Scouting advantage. Let's assume both men are equally skilled at scouting their respective opponents. Bret's build up to the Sharpshooter is significantly easier to telegraph, especially in a match where you don't have to be on the lookout for Bret's pinfall arsenal of small packages and whatnot. Angle's ankle lock, however, can be hit from anywhere, making it infinitely harder to scout and prepare for.
2. Set-up time. The Sharpshooter, whether Bret does it from a standing, seated, or laying down position (for an example, see Royal Rumble 1993 against Razor Ramon), takes time to set up. Someone as seasoned as Angle will be able to say "shit, he's setting me up for it" and makea defensive move. There's no warning with the ankle lock. Angle has hit it from roll throughs, from the top rope, on offense, on defense, etc.
3. Vulnerability. Think of Bret when he applies the Sharpshooter. He has to voluntarilly place his left leg in between his opponents legs, over his opponents left leg. Bret's left Ankle goes right by his fallen opponents right hand. In order to hit the Sharpshooter from a common position, Bret has to willingly GIVE ANGLE HIS ANKLE. Angle doesn't make himself susceptible to the Sharpshooter with the Ankle Lock.
4. The set-up. Bret does not really have one go-to, incapacitating, pin-fall worthy impact maneuver to put an opponent down. He goes into "the excellence of execution," - bodyslam, side-russian leg sweep, 2nd rope elbow, etc. None of those moves have earned Bret a pinfall because they do little more than stun and weaken an opponent short-term. Angle has the Angle-Slam, which would put Bret down long enough for him to set the Ankle Lock in, get the grapevines, and end the match. Remember - Angle doesn't have to worry about Bret's small packages or other quick pinning combinations.
Those are my 4 reasons for backing Angle, but to be fair, I will give the Hart-supporters 24 hours to change my mind before I cast a vote for the Olympic Gold Medalist.
I am actually backing Kurt Angle. Here's why.
1. Scouting advantage. Let's assume both men are equally skilled at scouting their respective opponents. Bret's build up to the Sharpshooter is significantly easier to telegraph, especially in a match where you don't have to be on the lookout for Bret's pinfall arsenal of small packages and whatnot. Angle's ankle lock, however, can be hit from anywhere, making it infinitely harder to scout and prepare for.
2. Set-up time. The Sharpshooter, whether Bret does it from a standing, seated, or laying down position (for an example, see Royal Rumble 1993 against Razor Ramon), takes time to set up. Someone as seasoned as Angle will be able to say "shit, he's setting me up for it" and makea defensive move. There's no warning with the ankle lock. Angle has hit it from roll throughs, from the top rope, on offense, on defense, etc.
3. Vulnerability. Think of Bret when he applies the Sharpshooter. He has to voluntarilly place his left leg in between his opponents legs, over his opponents left leg. Bret's left Ankle goes right by his fallen opponents right hand. In order to hit the Sharpshooter from a common position, Bret has to willingly GIVE ANGLE HIS ANKLE. Angle doesn't make himself susceptible to the Sharpshooter with the Ankle Lock.
4. The set-up. Bret does not really have one go-to, incapacitating, pin-fall worthy impact maneuver to put an opponent down. He goes into "the excellence of execution," - bodyslam, side-russian leg sweep, 2nd rope elbow, etc. None of those moves have earned Bret a pinfall because they do little more than stun and weaken an opponent short-term. Angle has the Angle-Slam, which would put Bret down long enough for him to set the Ankle Lock in, get the grapevines, and end the match. Remember - Angle doesn't have to worry about Bret's small packages or other quick pinning combinations.
Those are my 4 reasons for backing Angle, but to be fair, I will give the Hart-supporters 24 hours to change my mind before I cast a vote for the Olympic Gold Medalist.
I admit it, I'm a Bret Hart mark , but hey , I grew up watching Stampede Wredtling so I'm going to the mat for him on this one. I respect the Hell out of Angle , he is the best out there going today... but , Bret has utalized the spike piledriver as a finish move or a set up for the sharpshooter. Wikapedia even has it listed as his altermate finish move. Given Angles past neck problems it would stun Angle long enough to apply it. I can recognise the validity of the reasons above but still have to lobby for the Hitman to pull one against the odds. He always did a good job as the underdog. This one is definatly the main event of round one!
FromTheSouth
You don't want it with me.
I'm going with Angle here for several reasons.
1. While Bret Hart was trained at the Dungeon, Kurt Angle was trained wrestling at a world class level with other world class amateurs. Stu may be a great trainer, but physically, Kurt came up against quicker, stronger opponents, which is better training than even the Dungeon.
2. Kurt won the Olympics with a broken neck. A Sharpshooter doesn't seem so bad.
3. There are medals on the line. Kurt wins when medals are on the line.
1. While Bret Hart was trained at the Dungeon, Kurt Angle was trained wrestling at a world class level with other world class amateurs. Stu may be a great trainer, but physically, Kurt came up against quicker, stronger opponents, which is better training than even the Dungeon.
2. Kurt won the Olympics with a broken neck. A Sharpshooter doesn't seem so bad.
3. There are medals on the line. Kurt wins when medals are on the line.
When has Bret ever submitted? I can't remember him ever tapping out and the guy was in the crossface forever which ripped his shoulder out the socket. Added to that, Bret will have the ankle lock so well scouted that Angle will never get it on long enough. Hart is just far smarter and isn't above pulling an Eddie and simply unlacing his boot.
Angle on the other hand submitted to Benoit 4 times IN THE SAME BLOODY MATCH.
Angle on the other hand submitted to Benoit 4 times IN THE SAME BLOODY MATCH.
I'm going with Angle. Call me a fucking homer.
Bret is amazing, and is one of the greatest of all time, but so is Angle. This is the best match of this round, and sadly, it would probably bore everyone to tears. Angle is legitimately a better wrestler, so he has to win.
As NorCal put it, Angle won the gold medal with a broken neck. He wins.
Bret is amazing, and is one of the greatest of all time, but so is Angle. This is the best match of this round, and sadly, it would probably bore everyone to tears. Angle is legitimately a better wrestler, so he has to win.
As NorCal put it, Angle won the gold medal with a broken neck. He wins.
Kaze Enigma
Occasional Pre-Show
I am backing Kurt Angle.
He is an olympic gold medlest in wresteling and their are very few people who can escape the ankle/angle lock
He is an olympic gold medlest in wresteling and their are very few people who can escape the ankle/angle lock
HBK-aholic
Shawn Michaels ❤
I think I'm voting for Angle, although my mind isn't completely set yet. The Ankle Lock is easier to put on the opponent from anywhere in the ring, if you fall, or are down for a second, Angle can be on top of you for that Ankle lock. And it looks very painful. While there are people who have gotten out of it, the same is true for any sub mission move. But on the other hand, Hart has more than the one submission move, which a lot of people seem to be forgetting. This match would go on for a VERY long time, and I think Angle would be able to narrowly get the win. However, I'm still not 100% sure, so I may leave my vote for a while.
I went with Hart here. I'm a little wary of the whole "he won a gold medal" argument. In the kayfabe world, Hart is just as good as if not better than Angle on the mat. His whole gimmick was based around being the "excellence of excecution", so I'd assume that would be able to match Angle's gold medal background.
When it comes down to it, I think the Sharpshooter has proven to be a far more capable submission hold and Hart has used it to take out some of the best in the world. I don't see either one of these men quitting easily, but if one of them passes out, they lose. Hart made Austin tap out, so I'm sure he's capable of doing the same to Angle.
When it comes down to it, I think the Sharpshooter has proven to be a far more capable submission hold and Hart has used it to take out some of the best in the world. I don't see either one of these men quitting easily, but if one of them passes out, they lose. Hart made Austin tap out, so I'm sure he's capable of doing the same to Angle.
I went with Angle here. This would be a fantastic match and would go on for ages but I just see Angle getting the win in the end. Both use iconic finishers that have made some of the best in the world tap out but the main reason I chose Angle is because he made Steve Austin, Hulk Hogan and The Undertaker all tap out and is the only man to do that. Angle can also set the Ankle Lock up alot easier and from many posistions unlike Bret's Sharpshooter which doesn't have many ways to get into it. Plus if Angle got put into the Sharpshooter then he is able to get the Ankle Lock from that point seeing as the leg is in between Angle's and when he counters all he has to do is put on the "grapevines" and its over.
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