[OFFICIAL] The kick that stopped the show HQ

Discussion in 'WZ Tournament Campaign Headquarters' started by Ferbian, Apr 12, 2010.

  1. Ferbian

    Ferbian Has Returned.

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    True, and the ladder match was voted match of the year by WON.

    Must admit I liked the unsanctioned match at Unforgiven too.
     
    #51
  2. FunKay the Inevitable

    FunKay the Inevitable People Like Me, We Don't Play

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    True but I'm not sure if it really was MOTY.
     
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  3. Ferbian

    Ferbian Has Returned.

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    True, not by far, but that doesn't mean the match can't be awesome.. Randy vs John Cena in the iron man match was awesome, still wasn't match of the year.
     
    #53
  4. FunKay the Inevitable

    FunKay the Inevitable People Like Me, We Don't Play

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    Yeah I suppose. I would have to say I'm going with HBK vs. Jericho in the ladder match as there best gimmick match and there match at Judgment day that year as there best non gimmick.

    EDIT: Looks like you guys got yourself a tough few rounds to get through. Jericho's far away from HBK in this thing.
     
    #54
  5. Jsaturn14

    Jsaturn14 Pre-Show Stalwart

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    I posted this in another thread a long time ago, but it is always worth a repeat showing :D

    "HBK" Shawn Michaels: There are several reasons why I put HBK as the number one most entertaining wrestler of all time. 1: His interview segments are hilarious, and he has been entertaining through ALL AGES! HBK was entertaining in the 80's with The Rockers. HBK was entertaining in the early 90's when he changed into a singles wrestler, and had some awesome stuff going with Sheri. HBK was entertaining when the attitude era began, and he created DX with HHH. HBK was entertaining when he came back after 4 years after a severe back injury. HBK was entertaining with the rebirth of DX in 2006 and he had to remodel himself because of his religious values, and HBK is entertaining today with the PG Era. Who else can say that? Taker: NO! He never went through the 80's, he debuted in 1990. Hogan: NO! I can argue that he stopped being entertaining a couple of years ago when he got his reality show, and his life started to go to crap. Austin: NO! His gimmick could only work in the Attitude Era, end of story. The Rock: NO! He came to late in the game. Only one man can say that he has been entertaining for the last 24 years in the WWE, and only one man can say that he evolved as a character and as a man during that time, and that is HBK. 2: His matches are 4-5 star matches every single time he goes out into the ring. As Chris Jericho put it "HBK is mozart in the ring. That is his form of art, and he is the best at it." Does anyone like to argue with that? HBK has a record NINE PWI Match of the Year awards (Soon to be 10 when he wins this year for his match with Taker at Mania 25). HBK is an innovator. There is a reason why he has been in almost every first of a match (Ladder, HIAC, Elimination Chamber, Iron Man). It is because everyone knows that the match will be a 5 star, entertaining match, and that is the point of Pro Wrestling. Yes, you need interview segments in order to sell a PPV and get butts in the seats, but once the fans are there, you need to go out into the ring, and prove that people spent their money wisely. HBK does both of those things because win or lose, it doesn't matter to him. The only thing that matters is at the end of the day, the match you are gonna remember the most is the match HBK was in. 3: To go along with 2, lets look at some of these matches. He got a 5 star, match of the year match out of John Cena. He had perhaps the best pure wrestling match Raw has ever seen when he wrestled Shelton Benjamin in 2006 (this match also provided the single most devastating Sweet Chin Music i have ever seen) and he managed to get a match of the year match out of a 50+ year old man in Ric Flair who, and let's be fair, hadn't really been wrestling all that well for at least a year prior to that match. Such is the power of HBK though, that he almost resurrected the old Ric Flair, and had a fantastic match with him.

    Quite simply, HBK is the greatest of all time, and I am proud to be on his Wrestlezone Team! GO HBK!
     
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  6. PsychoBlack

    PsychoBlack Damn it feels good to be a Taylor!!

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    [​IMG]
    this guy???
     
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  7. Little Jerry Lawler

    Little Jerry Lawler Sigmund Freud On Ritalin And Roids

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    1. How is Michaels the innovator of HIAC and the Elimination Chamber? Him winning those matches doesn't mean he is the innovator.

    2. Actually the first Iron Man Match happened in 1992.

    3. HBK was hardly entertaining during the PG Era.

    4. Cena got that five star match out of HBK and not the other way around.

    5. HBK/Flair was awful.

    6. HBK really deserved about two of those match of the year awards.

    That's all I have for now.
     
    #57
  8. Hulkamaniac

    Hulkamaniac Vote Hogan, Savage, Rocky and Thesz

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    Hopefully he's able to find his smile before the tournament.

    [YOUTUBE]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/K9AzgP9wabg&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/K9AzgP9wabg&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/YOUTUBE]
     
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  9. Ferbian

    Ferbian Has Returned.

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    I think the fact that he's in the first two of them is a kind of innovation, while there might have been better innovations throughout the years, you cannot deny the innovation over the fact that you're the first one to compete in one of said matches, besides Shawn "innovated" the bump from the cell, while it wasn't as brutal as Foley, it's still a bump.

    It was a 30 minute Iron Man Match, yes it was an Iron Man Match, but it wasn't 60 minutes, therefore there's yet another innovation to it, and to be the only one to go through it without a pin.

    That's your opinion, I'm gonna have to disagree, I found Shawn to put on entertaining matches, not in the "ha ha you're funny" entertainment, but in matches you'd remember, which is what Shawn does, puts on matches you'll remember, while it can be argued that Shawn certainly wasn't his better self in the 2009, he still put on a show when it mattered.
    On the other hand, if you ask me, no matter the antics of DX, Shawn and Triple H has always made me laugh, and Shawn is able to make me laugh as a singles competitor without DX too, Shawn has never failed to put a smile on my face.

    While we all know Cena is able to put on good matches while they might not be a technical wonder work, you can't possibly tell me Shawn didn't make this match what it was? I believe if it has truly been Triple H vs John Cena the rematch, Undertaker vs Batista would've been the match of the night, and not Shawn vs Cena.

    An arguable matter of taste I'd say, while it wasn't neither one's best match, it was still good, and worth the watch, Shawn made Flair look good in his "last match" and while you might not like the match, don't try to tell me from a non biased point that they didn't put on a good match?

    Shawn put on the matches that the majority of the readers of PWI's magazines voted the match of the year, while you could again argue that "oh but Shawn didn't go out there alone, the other wrestler should be at least as credited for the match" sure, I would agree if you used that as your argument, but I will counter that it's not just Shawn's page and resume that gets that award added, the other guy does too, Shawn's just the one to repeatedly be a part of the award, while sharing the spotlight with many.
    And while you could argue again "but there's been far better matches over the years that viewers just ignored cause they didn't watch it / because they're Shawn marks" sure, that's where WON steps in, where Shawn has still won 3 of the awards, and I'd say it still proves that Shawn does something to put him out there as deserving.
     
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  10. FunKay the Inevitable

    FunKay the Inevitable People Like Me, We Don't Play

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    I have a few niggles with your post.

    I completely agree with you here.

    You are correct but they probably meant WWF Iron man Match.

    I'm not so sure that's true. Whether he was either feuding with Taker, running around as DX, fueding with Jericho or fighting whoever for the title. he was entertaining to a certain degree as DX (it got old pretty quickly most of the time). The battles he had with orton and Cena were both very solid if nothing else and both his fued with jericho and Taker were very good. His stuff with Jericho is some of the best of the last 5 years.

    I think it's around 50/50. Both putt here best effort on the line and worked as hard as one another.

    Matter of opinion. What was so awful about it by the way?

    Let's look over them shall we?

    - vs. Marty Jannetty on Raw, 1993: No idea, never seen it.

    - vs. Razor Ramon, Ladder Match, WrestleMania X, 1994: Not my personal choice but I can see why it was chosen (I would have gone with Bret vs. Owen in the Cage at SummerSlam but there you go

    - vs. Diesel, WrestleMania XI, 1995: Another match I don't know why HBK won. Not looking good for HBK here is it?

    - vs. Bret Hart, WrestleMania XII, 1996: A classic no doubt but amtch of the year? Probably not.

    - vs. Chris Benoit vs. HHH, WrestleMania XX, 2004: A this is a bit more like it. This WAS match of the year.

    - vs. Kurt Angle, WrestleMania 21, 2005: Absoloutley. A classic battle. One for the ages.

    - vs. Vince McMahon, WrestleMania 22, 2006: Hell NO! Not the best match of the night let alone the year.

    - vs. John Cena on Raw, 2007: Yes! This was a great match. An absolute classic.

    - vs. Ric Flair, WrestleMania XXIV, 2008: Again not my personal pick but understandable.

    - vs. Undertaker, WrestleMania XXV, 2009: Overrated? Oh yes. Best match of the year? Probably.

    So he did deserve at least four if not seven of those wins.
     
    #60
  11. Jsaturn14

    Jsaturn14 Pre-Show Stalwart

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    So, you don't think being in the first of any new, big time match makes a person an innovator? HBK was in the first high profile ladder match at WM 10. He was in the first high profile Iron Man match at WM 12. He was in the first ever HIAC with Taker at Bad Blood 1997, and he was in the first ever EC at Survivor Series 2002. He is the only person in WWE that is able to say that. Why was he put in these matches because someone had to go out there and tear down the house, and set the bar for all these matches, and there is only one guy who is guaranteed to do that and that is HBK.

    Yeah, as I already said, HBK was in the first high profile Iron Man Match

    So having a feud of the year with Chris Jericho in 2008 wasn't entertaining? And before you say it, of course Jericho had a role in making this happen, but it also takes two to tango. You don't have a great feud with someone who sucks. HBK was as much apart of making that feud spectacular as Jericho was. Oh, and he also had a great feud with legacy, along with two all time great matches with Taker at Mania. Yeah, HBK was entertaining during the PG Era. He was entertaining in the best possible way: In the ring.

    This has got to be the most absurd statement I have ever read. Before his match with HBK at Mania 23 Cena was like a yo-yo. He was able to have mediocre-good matches with Mania Event Level guys like HHH, and he had crap matches with lower level guys. After his match with HBK though is when Cena started to get consistently good. HBK pulled out something in Cena that night. HBK took Cena to school on how to have a great match every single night no matter the opponent. HBK did that, and Cena is lucky to have worked with him.

    Really, and you have proof of this where? Your own opinion? The fact is that the match was the match of the year of 2008 according to PWI and the WWE. So obviously, the match had to have been pretty damn good, and not awful.

    # PWI Match of the Year (1993)[171] vs. Marty Jannetty on Monday Night Raw on May 17
    # PWI Match of the Year (1994)[172] vs. Razor Ramon in a Ladder match at WrestleMania X
    # PWI Match of the Year (1995)[6] vs. Diesel at WrestleMania XI
    # PWI Match of the Year (1996)[6] vs. Bret Hart in an Iron Man match at WrestleMania XII
    # PWI Match of the Year (2004)[171] vs. Chris Benoit and Triple H at WrestleMania XX
    # PWI Match of the Year (2005)[171] vs. Kurt Angle at WrestleMania 21
    # PWI Match of the Year (2006)[171] vs. Vince McMahon in a No Holds Barred match at WrestleMania 22
    # PWI Match of the Year (2007)[171] vs. John Cena on Raw on April 23
    # PWI Match of the Year (2008)[171] vs. Ric Flair at WrestleMania XXIV
    # PWI Match of the Year (2009)[173] vs. The Undertaker at WrestleMania XXV

    Besides his match with Vince at Mania 22, you tell me what match was undeserving of its title as match of the year? Yes, I will give you Vince at Mania 22. Other than that though, every single match was a five star match that easily deserved its title as Match of the Year. Do other matches those years deserve the title as well? OF COURSE! But to say that the match that won is undeserving is crap.
     
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  12. shattered dreams

    shattered dreams Hexagonal Hedonist

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    The incessant Michaels posting everywhere has officially got him on my vote against list. I guess campaigning can go one of two ways.
     
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  13. Ferbian

    Ferbian Has Returned.

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    Your choice man, but I must admit I don't quite get why a very talked topic on a forum can get you to not think a guy is the potentially greatest of all time?

    This is a campaigning headquarter, campaigning is supposed to be done to get people to vote for this guy.

    And the guy barely just entered the period of his retirement and an amazing Wrestlemania match and build-up, why would there be anything wrong in posting about that? if you don't like it I don't see why you're reading it.
     
    #63
  14. Hulkamaniac

    Hulkamaniac Vote Hogan, Savage, Rocky and Thesz

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    He is not now, nor has he ever been the big draw necessary to be the best professional wrestler ever. This is a fake sport. The whole point is to put fans in the seats. And HBK was good, but not even close to great in this area.
     
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  15. Ferbian

    Ferbian Has Returned.

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    It's not necessarily all about drawing, if it was, why in the holy hell are we having this tournament then? narrow the list to 3 people, John Cena, Austin and Hulk Hogan, lets debate my friend.

    I know some are gonna base their votings on "oh but he's the bigger draw, hence he must've been the greater wrestler" but some in this tournament are gonna vote on a kayfabe view on who could pull off the win in a match between say.. well let's take an actual match, Brock Lesnar vs Triple H, who's gonna win that based on the things they did in their prime.

    Some are gonna vote solely based on "oh boy he's won more titles.. hence he must be the better guy, the company trusts him with their titles to maintain the popularity of the company"

    And some are gonna vote "oh boy! triple H! is in the finals.. wait.. who in the blue hell is El Santo?"

    It's not about being the biggest draw, it's not about who's the best wrestler, not about the best talker, it's not about who was most dominant in X amount of days, weeks, months, years, and it's not even about who's your favorite of the two, not for everybody, it's all about how YOU decide to vote, I'm a Shawn Michaels mark, I believe he's the greatest all around wrestler to entertain me, make me sit through an Iron Man Match for the guy, and he's the guy who's (at that point) potential retirement had me biting my nails through the whole Wrestlemania 26 main event, and most importantly, he's the guy I've always trusted to keep me entertained no matter what.

    Vote your way, I'm not telling you "vote Shawn Michaels cause I damn well tell you to" I'm telling you to vote for Shawn Michaels because you want to, and because you believe that he is truly deserving of carrying another year's title of Wrestlezone tournament winner.
     
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  16. Jsaturn14

    Jsaturn14 Pre-Show Stalwart

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    Now this quote right here emphasizes exactly the two camps that wrestling fans live in. There are those fans who believe that the biggest thing is the ability to draw. They think that guys like Austin and Hogan are the best because they were able to push a lot of merchandise, and draw fans. Honestly though, what measures somebody being able to draw? Is it simply the fact that they were in the main event of a PPV that everyone wanted to see? I really don't get it because doesn't the PPV have more than one match on it, and so can't people be buying the PPV not because of the main event but because of another match on the card? Take WM 17 for example, what match were people buying that PPV for? Was it for Rock vs Austin, or was it for Taker vs HHH, or TLC II, or Angle vs Beniot? Honestly, the whole idea of drawing is stupid to me because there are way to many variables to it. The quality of the opponent that you are facing, the other matches on a PPV card, etc... Drawing is dumb and should never be used to justify someone as the best of all time.

    The other camp that fans live in, and the camp that I belong to are those people who think that Wrestling Ability and the Quality of Matches rules. In this camp, people like Beniot, Angle, and HBK are considered the best of all time because while they may not have been the best "draw" they regularly have/had the best match of the night, and they had the match that everyone would remember for years to come. That to me is what pro wrestling is all about. Creating memories that you will never forget, and to me there is no one better at doing that than HBK.
     
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  17. FunKay the Inevitable

    FunKay the Inevitable People Like Me, We Don't Play

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    And Jericho as well. he's in that camp.
     
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  18. Hulkamaniac

    Hulkamaniac Vote Hogan, Savage, Rocky and Thesz

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    People try to deny drawing power in much the same way "how do you know what people are buying the card for", but the bottom line is, history shows that live gates/ppv buys/merchandise sales etc. match up with when certain guys are on top of the card. If you have two cards that are exactly the same, except one is headline by Hulk Hogan vs. Ric Flair, and the other is headlined by Shawn Michaels vs. Bret Hart, the Hogan-Flair card is going to draw more. Just a fact of life.

    Besides, I never said drawing power is the only thing that matters, or that people who weren't great draws should be automatically eliminated. It's a tournament. HBK is definitely a legend of the sport, and definitely worth of going deep into the competition, but to actually WIN the tournament, I think that you absolutely have to be a top level draw, and HBK wasn't.
     
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  19. Ferbian

    Ferbian Has Returned.

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    Problem is that there's yet to be a top level draw to actually win this tournament.

    First year: Shawn Michaels
    Second year: Undertaker (now I don't know how much he's been of a draw, but he's not a top draw)
    And third year: Bret Hart, just as Shawn Michaels, not a big draw as opposed to Austin and Hulk Hogan.

    So this tournament is not solely based on draws, and it's quite obvious that a lot of people won't vote for a guy just because he was a draw, I'm not sure how people plan on voting, but I believe that people will vote their own way, and that they have done so the last few years, people probably will again, and I somehow don't see Hulk Hogan going to the top 4 even.

    Looking at some of the predictions made for the tournament in the "predict it "contest" thread in the bar room, a lot of people will be putting Austin in there, and Shawn Michaels, Bret Hart, Kurt Angle.

    A lot of people vote differently, and I personally don't think anybody but Austin has a good chance of winning this year.

    But that's just my opinion.
     
    #69
  20. Jsaturn14

    Jsaturn14 Pre-Show Stalwart

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    Really? Where does it say that? I know for myself, I would much rather see HBK vs Bret in their prime rather than Hogan vs Flair. Secondly, HBK vs Cena filled up Ford Field with 80,000 people, and they got 1.3 million PPV buys which is the largest ever. They got this being in the Main Event spot, so what does that say about HBK's drawing power? Sure, Cena had a hand in doing that as well, but if the match-up isn't good, and the opponent is bad, people are not going to buy the match. HBK had as much a hand in doing that as much as Cena. Time for my pre-emptive strike. Now, if you want to say that Batista vs Taker, or The Battle of the Billionaires were just as much apart of that as HBK vs Cena then that makes you a hypocrite because history shows that when certain people are on top of the card they get larger PPV buys/Ticket Sales/etc... Well, HBK was on top of the card at WM 23 and he got the most PPV buys in WWE history. Yeah, HBK can draw, HBK can draw well.
     
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  21. Hulkamaniac

    Hulkamaniac Vote Hogan, Savage, Rocky and Thesz

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    Again, historically speaking, it's how the cards draw over the course of more then an individual event. Wow, you can point to one or two cards where the draw was high. But the bottom line is that, for most of the events where HBK was the top of the card, the draw was just lower then guys like Austin, Cena, Hogan, etc. are on top of the card, it drew really well regardless of opponent. Meanwhile, HBK had to be with one of those true top-level draws to get that number. Hogan drew with everybody. So did Austin. So did Rocky. So did Flair. Shawn didn't. I know as a Shawn fan you have to defend every little thing about him, but the bottom line is that he's good, but not great,draw. That's it.
     
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  22. Ferbian

    Ferbian Has Returned.

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    Isn't that kinda generalizing a huge fanbase on 1 comment?

    I absolutely not defend Shawn on any stand point even though I am a fan of his, but I do know he wasn't the greatest draw, that's kinda obvious, but he certainly was a better in-ring wrestler than any of your beloved top draws
     
    #72
  23. Hulkamaniac

    Hulkamaniac Vote Hogan, Savage, Rocky and Thesz

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    I apologize, you're right. What I should have said is "the temptation is to defend everything about him." I know, it happens to me. I find myself defending Hogan, Hennig, Rocky all the time, even in areas where I should probably just concede, such as HOgan's in-ring workrate.
     
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  24. Ferbian

    Ferbian Has Returned.

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    No need to apologize :)

    But yeah, we all have our reasons to stand up for the guy we absolutely love watching and who was the main reason you tuned in to watch Smackdown, RAW, ECW, Nitro, iMPACT, NXT etc. you name it.

    And I'm not telling you there's anything wrong with backing Hulk Hogan because he was the bigger draw, or because you simply enjoyed his work better, everybody has their reason to vote, this tournament is not one big pile of "you have to vote for the better one" or "you have to vote for your favorite" etc. it's your way of voting, and the only time you can be wrong in your comments is when you either judge a guy's choice without properly understanding it, if you put in a wrong date or amount of title numbers, or a wrong comment about a wrestler (like saying "Shawn Michaels was never in an Iron Man Match").. but that's just my opinion, I know I'm gonna run into some die hard fans that are gonna run me to the ground in counter arguments on why I should have voted X over Y rather than Y over X, and it's all in the spirit of competition.

    This is my first tournament, and I must admit I'm looking forward to debating with people, and I'm not only backing Shawn Michaels through this tournament, I'm a Triple H, Jericho and Steve Austin supporter too, but I'm just a notch more supportive of Shawn.
     
    #74
  25. Jsaturn14

    Jsaturn14 Pre-Show Stalwart

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    Okay, besides the early days when each of these guys were coming up in the business, name one bad opponent that Austin, Hogan, Cena, wrestled against in their heyday. Austin was consistently wrestling against guys like the Rock, The Undertaker, heck, even Vince, so Main Event level guys. Hogan wrestled against Ultimate Warrior, Andre, Randy Savage, once again Main Event level guys. Cena has Orton, HHH, Edge, and yes HBK, so Main Event Level guys. So yeah, Austin, Hogan, and Cena of course draw a lot because they are constantly put into big time matches with big time guys. HBK however was having feuds with guys like Carlito and Chris Masters, working to get the younger guys up, but when given the chance to go against a big time player on a big time stage what did HBK do? He drew. Again, there is more to drawing than just a single person. A person's opponents have just as much to do with how many people buy a PPV. If Austin was wrestling against The HeadBangers at WM do you honestly think he would be the top draw of the event?
     
    #75
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