NBA Playoffs Spam Discussion

Discussion in 'The GSD Archives' started by jmt225, Apr 25, 2015.

  1. Slyfox696

    Slyfox696 Excellence of Execution

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    It's not a lie. JR Smith played terribly and stupidly. Obviously he wasn't the Warriors MVP, but his inability to score when they so desperately needed him absolutely crippled the Cavs.

    By the way, your passive aggressive comment is noted. The difference, of course, is (beside the fact my statement wasn't a liar) the fact I'm not blatantly lying about something you've said.

    Consider this a friendly warning, and the last friendly warning you shall receive from me. Drop your butthurt. If you wish to discuss the fact no one on the Warriors was terribly consistent, feel free. If you wish to discuss the fact JR Smith played terribly (as agreed to by nearly everyone), feel free. But I highly recommend you drop the passive aggressive behavior.
     
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  2. Alastor

    Alastor Championship Contender

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    You said value to the team, who said anything about Warriors MVP? Another lie.

    But you are.

    Another lie.

    Iggy and Curry were consistent. Curry had one bad game 2 but was performing up to par throughout.

    Yet you claim he could be argue to be as valuable as anyone on the Warriors? Stop lying.

    Says the one hiding behind the 'official' reason for my infringement when it is clear to anyone why I got it.
     
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  3. George Steele's Barber

    George Steele's Barber Advertise Here $9.95/month

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    So why does Lebron get a pass in the regular season MVP race for not playing his best while injured and missing a decent number of games during the regular season but the Warriors all have to be held to a higher standard of consistency when MVP voting in the Finals. I know the Finals are a smaller sample set but don't we still have to be consistent in judgement?

    And why should Iguodala get dinged for not starting the first three games when his team went 1-2 and not recognized for his team going 3-0 when he did start while Lebron gets credit for his team going 34-10 after his injury?
     
    #228
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  4. Slyfox696

    Slyfox696 Excellence of Execution

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    What the fuck are you talking about? I was responding to someone who asked me who I thought was the best player for the Warriors in this series in the midst of a conversation about the Finals MVP.

    God, you're such a dumbass.

    No, unlike you I'm not trying to say time and again, despite it being clarified, something which is not a position one holds.

    No, it's the last warning. Drop the butthurt.

    :rolleyes:

    Curry didn't play well in either Game 2 or Game 3 (unless you want to count his Hail Mary heaves late in the fourth quarter as playing well). Iguodala guarded a guy who nearly averaged a triple double in the series, including 35 points a game.

    If you think struggling in 33% of your games and giving up nearly 35 points a game and nearly a triple double is consistent, then I guess we'll just have different ideas what the word means.

    Yes, because his play was so bad, it was helpful to the Warriors.

    I'm not lying. You continuing to claim I am makes you look pathetic. I've documented multiple times where you've lied. Give it up.

    Yes, the official reason is you are a liar. As I've proven multiple times now.
     
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  5. Slyfox696

    Slyfox696 Excellence of Execution

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    Who is giving a LeBron a pass for anything? His final regular season stats include his time where he was less than perfect health. And talking about the Cavs success after LeBron came back is only being used to demonstrate how valuable LeBron is to the team.

    Two different ideas, neither of which are giving Lebron "a pass".

    LeBron was the best player in the series. This is essentially indisputable. Once more, using your logic, why not give Bogut the Finals MVP, since his team won and went 3-0 when he came off the bench?

    LeBron is the best player in basketball. He is more important to the Cavaliers than any other player is to their team. The first statement is disputed by almost no one and there's copious amounts of evidence to support the second.
     
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  6. Alastor

    Alastor Championship Contender

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    Equating the value of all the warriors to be the similar to the value of JR Smith isn't slamming the Warriors?

    Same to you.

    And Lebron didn't play well in game 4 or game 6 unless you only want to look at traditional box score stats. Iguodala guarded a guy who had almost all the offensive possession for his team. Holding the guy below his true shooting percentage is good defence.

    If you think holding the guy to below his shooting average for the whole series isn't consistent then I guess so.

    Well that we can agree on. JR Smith was bad.

    No you haven't.You continuing to make this claim just makes you look like someone who is attempting to bully his way to decide the argument.

    No dispute there. But pretty sure we know the real reason isn't that.
     
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  7. Alastor

    Alastor Championship Contender

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    Ignoring the fact that the team had changed their identity with 3 key mid season roster addition?

    If Curry didn't play well enough in "33%" of the finals to be considered consistent, wouldn't Lebron playing less than well enough for slightly less than 50% of the regular season disqualify him from the regular season MVP award? Why is it two different ideas?

    Except that isn't his logic. Bogut didn't come off the bench for the last 2 games I believe. Who is the liar here?

    Lebron is the best player in basketball. Nobody is disputing that. But there are players that are more valuable to their teams. Anthony Davis, James Harden, Kevin Durrant to name a few in the past season. Thunder didn't even make the playoffs with Durant out.

    You are telling me a team with Kyrie and Love with the defensive players the Cavs acquired couldn't make the playoffs?
     
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  8. George Steele's Barber

    George Steele's Barber Advertise Here $9.95/month

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    You have been very focused on averages, they dont include the games Lebron was out or his total output for the year. And remember, the award is for the whole regular season, not just when a guy plays?

    If you are just looking at pts., rebounds, asst., steals and blocks how do Lebron and Curry's totals look? Check my calculations but Curry's extra 200+ points look a lot more valuable to the Warriors.

    When he shows up. But at the same time you forget to mention that at worst, the Warriors were 40 games over .500 when Curry played with them (I didn't look up how they did in the two games he sat out). For a full regular season award I'd say that matters.

    But they don't call it the "Best Player Award".


    .

    Because Iguodala was more valuable to his team's goal of winning.

    And is this where I start calling you a 'liar' for telling me my logic?

    Yes, we get it but that still does not mean he should win MVP.

    Arguably true in the regular season, definitely true in the Finals but (and we are going in circles), winning matters. Lebron's regular season and Finals performances don't make up for the Warriors historic regular season and Championship.

    Calling the award a joke just makes you sound like someone who is bitter or even worse Stephen A. Smith.

    And years of MVP awards that are selected by basketball experts that will tell you that just being those things are not necessarily enough.
     
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  9. hatehabsforever

    hatehabsforever Moderator
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    There's absolutely no debating the fact that LeBron James had the statistically best numbers of all the players in the NBA Finals. And I would have absolutely no problem giving the the MVP award to a guy who was on the losing team in the finals. There is precedence for this having happened before, in the NBA as well as in other sports.

    But personally, I don't think you can give the MVP to anyone on the losing team, regardless of numbers, if the series ends in fewer than seven games. That's my opinion. If you can take the series to the duration, and put up beast numbers in the process, then by all means, award the MVP to someone on the losing end if their numbers warrant it. But if your team loses 4-2, I personally don't believe that you can award the MVP to someone on the losing end of things, even if his effort was superhuman and he's the second greatest NBA player of my era for sure, if not of all time.

    Personally, I had no problem giving the MVP to Iguodala. He was far more deserving than Curry, and I'm glad they didn't simply concede the award to him simply because he was the MVP of the regular season and happened to end up on the winning team. Curry is an amazing talent in his own right, but he was not the MVP of this particular series.

    Truth be told, I'm sure James would have been just as happy to not win the MVP award in a losing effort. He said as much in an interview I saw prior to game six. It's a team effort in the finals, not a place to focus on individual accolades. I think it would have been a bitter pill to swallow for him to end up disappointed by yet another finals loss, but to receive an individual accolade. He's got plenty of individual recognition over his stellar career, and that would likely not be what he would have wanted anyway.
     
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  10. Lowdown

    Lowdown Ooh baby I like it roooaaaaw!

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    I'm of the mindset that Curry couldn't got one of two votes. But Iguodala did change the complex of the series when he was put in the starting lineup. Again his free throws were horrendous, but he was the X factor. He deserved the MVP.
     
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  11. Milkyway!

    Milkyway! Hodor!

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    You're an absolute fool if you do not think that Baby Bron Bron wasn't robbed. The precedent has been set in the NBA finals that the NBA finals award doesn't have to go to the best player on the winning team as proven by Jerry West. Lebron played the most minutes, scored the most points, damn near averaged a triple double. Come on. The man was playing possessed, and the ONLY reason the Cavaliers were remotely in the games.

    Lebron literally accounted for every single point in the 2nd quarter of game 5 whether it be through assist or directly scoring. He was by far the best player on the court, hands down. He was robbed.
     
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  12. Slyfox696

    Slyfox696 Excellence of Execution

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    No, it's slamming JR Smith, (not so) subtly suggesting his performance was so bad it was of help to the Warriors. Do you really not understand this? Are you really this stupid?

    LeBron was carrying his team in every sense of the word. And while Game 4 was his worst game (which just so happened to be the only game which truly was a rout), he still scored 20 points, with 12 rebounds and 8 assists.

    Who averaged nearly a triple double and 35 points a game.

    In what world are those good statistics for a defender?

    Then why the fuck are you challenging me on my JR Smith statements?

    Yes, I have.

    No, it is the real reason. I absolutely loathe liars. And I'm not going to put up with someone lying about what I've said, when I've already corrected them multiple times.
    It's how you measure performance in sports. :shrug:
    The games LeBron was out for injury, the Cavs went 1-7 (2-9 overall without James).

    I think that only further proves how valuable LeBron is to the Cavs. I've already addressed this earlier in the thread.

    LeBron played in 84% of the games. He played enough.

    It's 157 total points difference, not 200+ (1900-1743). But when has "total" stats ever been used? We look at averages because it shows how well a player played. James didn't miss half the season, he missed 8 games during one stretch of the season and didn't play two games at the end of the season so he could be rested for the playoffs. Your argument just really doesn't hold up.

    And when he's absent. Without James, the Cavs went 2-9 this year, with one of those wins coming in the last game of the year against a Wizards team that did not play Paul Pierce, John Wall or Bradley Beal.

    That's how valuable LeBron is to the Cavs.

    I haven't forgot to mention anything. The Warriors were a great team this year, no one is forgetting or disputing that. But they are a playoff team, even without Curry. The Cavaliers have demonstrated no likelihood of doing the same.

    He was the best and most valuable.

    No he wasn't. The goal of both teams was to win and James was clearly more valuable to his team's goal.

    No, I'm using the logic you have expressly stated. I'd suggest you not take up defense for Alastor, he's been proven a liar multiple times now.

    Are you saying Bogut is more valuable than James because his team won? Of course you wouldn't say that.

    He's the best and he's been the most valuable. That's why he should win the MVP.

    But winning is a team accomplishment. The MVP is an individual accomplishment. Saying James accomplishments can only mean something if his team wins the series is asinine. And that's essentially what you're saying (when you argue from the "winning the series matters" angle).

    Again, you're comparing the individual with the team. It's an apples to oranges comparison.

    It is a joke. As is the Heisman award and the NFL MVP (both given almost exclusively to offensive players and usually only QB or HB). It might be the best we have, but it doesn't mean it's not a joke. The only sport which hasn't made a complete fool of itself in the last few years is baseball, and even they still struggle with things like calling a pitcher MVP (Kershaw last year was the first pitcher to win the MVP since Koufax in '63, I believe) or a reliever Cy Young. But at least Felix Hernandez can win Cy Young even though he played on a terrible team.

    They're not experts though. That's kind of the point. They are writers, with known, and many times obvious, biases.
    Iguodala was only the X factor for the winning team.

    If you remove Iguodala and James from the series, which team do you think hurts worse for the removal?
     
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  13. jmt225

    jmt225 Global Moderator

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    Can't we just accept that there is an unwritten rule that the MVP will always be the "MVP" of the winning team? The only time this wasn't the case was the very first year the award was created.

    I mean, Sly's right... in this series, in the NBA period, LeBron James is the most valuable player on his team. When you look at by that pure definition, it's a fact.

    HOWEVER, there's more behind the award than what the initials "MVP" actually stand for, and always has been. For instance, if you're clearly the most valuable player on your team and your team has by far the best record in the NBA, in the toughest conference in the NBA.... then that person will get the MVP Award over a guy who might be ultimately more valuable to his team, but his team didn't have nearly as good of a season. And the same goes for the Finals.
     
    #238
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  14. Alastor

    Alastor Championship Contender

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    Using your logic, Lebron's good performances in the Cavs wins is due to the poor defence of Klay and Draymond Green.

    Lebron don't need to be good to score. Nope. Warriors don't have players that contribute to winning more than JR Smith's poor play. No, that's not slamming the Warriors team.

    He carried his team and him performing poorly in those games are not mutually exclusive. Thanks for agreeing with me by brining up the boxscores.

    Nice half quote. Who's the intellectually dishonest liar now?

    Look at his shooting percentage?

    Already explained it.

    Agree to disagree.

    What lies again?
     
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  15. Milkyway!

    Milkyway! Hodor!

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    There was a precedent set by the very first year, so nope. I can't accept it.
     
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  16. Lowdown

    Lowdown Ooh baby I like it roooaaaaw!

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    If you take out Iguodala and LeBron, then we're having a whole different conversation, Sly. I never said that LeBron didn't deserve the MVP. He did get four votes after all. My point was that the momentum of the entire series was altered once Iguodala was inserted into the starting lineup for the Warriors. I do feel that if the Cavs would've had Kyrie then it more than likely would've went to a game 7. LeBron was gonna get his stats regardless of who was guarding him, and he truly was the only reason the Cavs made it a series at all. I just feel that Iguodala provided the spark that drove the Warriors to close out the final three games.
     
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  17. George Steele's Barber

    George Steele's Barber Advertise Here $9.95/month

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    No, it is one way of measuring performance in sports.


    Yet Steph Curry basically played the whole season and we will never know how his team would succeed without him. We only know that they were at least 40 games over .500 with him.

    ....playing in a far superior Western Conference.

    No, it only proves you have your own perception of what it takes to be the 2014-2015 Regular Season MVP compared to the most other basketball novices and experts alike.

    And Curry played in 97.5%. A category where he is significantly had more value than Lebron.

    I don't know. There are many voters who I am sure use different and multiple metrics. When has "this was the team's record without him" used to name an MVP?

    Don't show up for work 16% of the year and then ask your boss how valuable you were during the year.

    Never mind, I forget you were a teacher.

    Yet you can't prove that Steph Curry's absence would have had such an impact. Is that fair to Steph Curry?

    Too bad. Your argument for Lebron is kind of weak.

    Prove it.

    Nor have they proved they could not make the playoffs without Lebron. Brooklyn, Boston, and Milwaukee made the playoffs and none of those team had two top 15 guys in their lineup plus Lebron.

    But again, you take the award to be too literal. And seem to ignore winning.

    And that would mean so much more if the Finals were Best of three.

    I would like to know where I expressly stated that Andrew Bogut deserved MVP over Lebron. I know I expressly stated that Lebron winning MVP would have been fine but I don't remember stating anything close to resembling that Bogut deserved it more than Lebron.


    You mean the liar you are not going to 'put up with' but you continue to go back and forth with.

    Nope not saying that at all. I'm not even sure how you made that leap.

    No, I'm saying winning is another metric that matters in selecting an MVP. A very important one, but not the end all be all. Please don't put words in my mouth.

    Different sports with different criteria for different awards. And that is OK. The NBA seems to be using a criteria that works for their sport.

    Prove it. What are they biased against? Lebron? That guy who won it twice while he was at his most hated as a member of the loaded Heat. Is Steph Curry the cats meow to Hubie Brown? That non-expert who should step down and give his vote to you.
     
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  18. Alastor

    Alastor Championship Contender

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    Did he just lie about your position in the argument?
     
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  19. Slyfox696

    Slyfox696 Excellence of Execution

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    Then the award doesn't hardly have any meaning. And it's why the award is a joke, much like it is in other sports.

    The only thing which would change is how quickly the Warriors would have defeated the Cavaliers.

    You said Iguodala was the X factor...I'm just pointing out he was only the X factor for one team, not for the series.

    I understand that. I just disagree with your assessment Iguodala was the X factor in the series.
    It's the almost exclusive way we evaluate statistics over a period of time.

    Agreed. But we DO know how poorly the Cavaliers played without LeBron. Without LeBron they were 1-7 (or 2-9, if you want to count the last games or not), and with LeBron they were the 2nd seed in the East and the favorite to win the conference.

    Sure we don't know what the Warriors would have been without Steph (though it is quite reasonable to assume they would have been good), but we do know how important LeBron was.

    So most other perceptions don't revolve around the best statistics and value brought to a team?

    I'm pretty certain this is another one of those statements you'd like to retract, like your earlier statement about the "flexibility" of voters to only vote for someone of the winning team.

    But we aren't talking about Curry, we were discussing whether or not LeBron had played enough, which I proved he had. Don't be like Alastor, stick to just one topic.

    :lmao:

    But you brought it up anyways. Got it.

    Umm...all the time. Value to the team is always a primary component of MVP discussion and showing the difference in record in games played and games not played is fairly common in instances where it is appropriate.

    I'll bet you dollars to donuts if you ask 100 bosses around the country that if they had an employee who only worked 86% of the year, but managed to bring in 200% more profit than anyone else, every boss in the country would take it in a heartbeat.

    What do you think?

    :rolleyes:

    That was weak.

    Klay Thompson - 2015 All Star
    Andre Iguodala - 2012 Olympic Gold Medalist
    Draymond Green - I think it's safe to say he's a future All-Star
    Andrew Bogut - 2015 2nd Team All Defensive team
    David Lee - 2010, 2013 All-Star
    Harrison Barnes - 2013 First team All-Rookie team


    I think it's a pretty safe assumption, given the level of talent.

    They proved it for four years while LeBron was in Miami. And they weren't even close to making the playoffs. You know who didn't make the playoffs this year? Miami, after four straight years of being in the Finals with LeBron.

    To ignore this evidence is quite silly.

    How can the "Most Valuable Player" not be the most valuable player? If it's just the award we're going to give to the winning team or the flavor of the year, then we probably ought to change the name of the award.

    No, it wouldn't. Both teams' goal was to win. LeBron was far more important to his team's goal than Iguodala was. The idea Iguodala is more important just because he had a better team around him is ridiculous.

    You didn't, nor did I say you did. But you ARE saying that winning essentially erases any other accomplishment, so I asked you then if Andrew Bogut was more valuable than LeBron James because his team won.

    You never answered the question, though I did answer the question for you at least once. But it sure would be nice if you could address how you validate the argument winning overcomes anything else but Andrew Bogut wouldn't have deserved MVP over LeBron.

    I keep hoping he'll demonstrate some level of integrity. He's yet to do so.

    And the "put up with" is far more about discipline than it is about response.

    Because your position (or at least the one from which you are arguing) is essentially that winning trumps all. Either winning trumps all or performance matters. Which is it? Because LeBron and Iguodala weren't even close in performance in the series, and no one is arguing they are. Which means the only argument left (and the one you've taken) is the winning argument. And if we go with the winning argument, then you have to explain how Andrew Bogut wasn't more valuable than LeBron James.

    Umm...that essentially IS your argument. Unless you want to make the laughable claim Iguodala outperformed LeBron James, then the only argument for Iguodala is that his team won. Because there's no doubt in anyone's mind that, all other things being equal, if the Cavs had won the series, then James would have been the MVP.

    The only explanation for Iguodala winning over James is that his team won. Remove the team accomplishment criteria (pretending no team has won the series) and there is no disputing James is the MVP, likely unanimously.

    There is no other metric by which Iguodala would have been Finals MVP.

    And most of them a joke. :shrug:

    Not just biased against but biased for as well. And they want always want a fresh face, because a fresh face sells fresh copies. People get tired of the Patriots always winning, they get tired of the Cardinals and Giants and Yankees always winning. And they are tired of LeBron always winning.
    No, unlike you I'm not dishonest.
     
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  20. Poop Master Flex

    Poop Master Flex Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    As said numerous times you will never convince me that LeBron shouldn't have won but him not winning hardly makes it a joke in my eyes.

    Unlike Jerry West (who's team lost 108-106 in game 7) the Cavaliers got flat out beat the last 3 games, they weren't games that were so close they could've went either way, they were won because Golden State was the better team. Iguodala in my eyes made that happen when he was inserted into the starting 5.

    LeBron played better than anyone, without him the Cavs wouldn't have even made it to the playoffs let alone 2 games from a title (even with Irving and Love) and considering LeBron's numbers he was the best. At the same time though in my eyes it's hard to give it to a guy who's team lost by an average of 15 the last 3 games (or close to that) and lost in 6 games. Although LeBron should've been an exception the MVP award is for the player who contributes most to the teams success and although the Cavs played good, they weren't successful enough in alot of ways. At the end of the day nothings more valuable than winning in sports.
     
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  21. Ty Burna

    Ty Burna WZCW World Heavyweight Champion

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    This Deandre Jordan saga is bullshit.
     
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  22. PeterSellersSTL

    PeterSellersSTL Getting Noticed By Management

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    it is the most awesome thing in sports this week
     
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  23. Alastor

    Alastor Championship Contender

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    He just screwed the Mavs big time. They let Tyson Chandler go and didn't pursue other centers because they thought the deal was done.
     
    #248

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