Miami Region, Fifth Round: (1) Hulk Hogan vs. (3) John Cena

Discussion in 'Championship Region' started by klunderbunker, May 17, 2012.

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Who Wins This Match?

  1. Hulk Hogan

  2. John Cena

Multiple votes are allowed.
Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. klunderbunker

    klunderbunker Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House

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    This is a fifth round match in the Miami Region. It is a standard one on one match. It will be held at Sun Life Stadium in Miami, Florida

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]

    #1. Hulk Hogan

    Vs.

    [​IMG]

    #3. John Cena



    This match takes place one week following the fourth round. Beginning with this round, the final three rounds will take place on one night. The margin of victory will determine the amount of damage and energy spent in a round. For instance, a win by 50 votes would mean the winner expended very little energy, whereas a win by 1 vote would mean the winner spent a good deal of energy in a hard and close match.

    Polls will be open for five days following a one day period for discussion. Voting will be based on who you feel is the greater of the two competitors. Post your reasons for why your pick should win below. Remember that this is non-spam and the most votes in the poll win. Any ties will be broken by the amount of posts of support for each candidate, with one vote per poster.

    Also remember that this is a non-spam forum. If you post a response without giving a reason for your selection, it will be penalized for spam and deleted.
     
    #1
  2. FlexAmerican Dynamite

    FlexAmerican Dynamite RIP Cooper's Title Reign

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    Oh yeah Brother!!!!!

    For the first time in this tournament I'm backing Cena all the way. He deserves to go over Hogan in every conceivable way. I'm here to show you why.

    -He is the current face of the WWE and most likely will be until he retires
    -Say what you want about his moveset, it beats Hogans anyday
    -Never been accused of backstage politics, something Hogan is known for heavily
    -He is a way more respectable person outside than the ring than Hogan
    -Now this is just my opinion but I feel he is way more dedicated to the buisness than Hogan.

    Cenation>Hulkamania brother.

    Vote John Cena
     
    #2
  3. Cmills005

    Cmills005 Dark Match Jobber

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    This is the match that will not end
    Yes it goes on and on my friends
    Hulkster strating hulking up Cena not sure what it was
    Then Super Cena overcame just because
    This is the match that will not end....

    Seriously. I think the biggest thing to be taken out of this match is that since this is KotR format from here on out, whoever wins will be spent after this match. My initial thoughts are Hogan simply because Cena is simply a lesser version of the Hulkster but I could easily be swayed
     
    #3
  4. Little Jerry Lawler

    Little Jerry Lawler Sigmund Freud On Ritalin And Roids

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    Hogan was the face of companies for almost two decades.

    Just like Cena, I'm sure Hogan's moveset worked out quite dandy for him.

    I bet every top superstar has played politics in some way, shape, or form. Doesn't diminish what Hogan has accomplished.

    And what does this have anything to do with who would win a match?

    Thirty years-plus in the business isn't dedication?

    I like Cena as much as the next guy but I find it tough to put him over Hogan.
     
    #4
  5. Slyfox696

    Slyfox696 Excellence of Execution

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    This easily goes to John Cena. Hulk Hogan is a selfish egotistical asshole who was exposed in his divorce for just how petty the man really is. Yes, he did rule over the wrestling world in the 80s, but it's not like there was a lot of top competition for his spot. King Kong Bundy? Paul Orndorff? Andre the Giant at the end of his career (and life)? Not exactly a stellar list of Hall of Famers. Outside of Savage, who held the belt for a year, Hogan had no competition.

    On the other hand, we have John Cena, who seems to be as legitimately nice as they come. He does all sorts of Make a Wish Foundation requests, he has no problem putting other wrestlers over, he's worked some of the best matches in wrestling history, and he's done it by competing with SEVERAL Hall of Famers.

    This choice is clear, it has to be Cena.
     
    #5
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  6. Slyfox696

    Slyfox696 Excellence of Execution

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    Anyone who votes against Hogan has to be out of their mind. Not only is he undisputedly the greatest draw in wrestling history, not only is he the biggest babyface in wrestling history, he's also arguably the greatest heel in wrestling history. He revolutionized the pro wrestling business, not once but twice. His matchup with Andre and Warrior are still talked about today, even 25 years after the former. He is undoubtedly the greatest pro wrestler in history.

    That's great, unfortunately it has fuck all to do with this conversation. Don't blame you for trying to score easy points though.

    You conveniently forgot guys like Roddy Piper, Slaughter and Flair, all deserving of Hall of Fame status, if they are not already. Oh, and don't forget Mr. Perfect either. And that's not even getting into his WCW run.

    But why do you think none of those guys match up with Hogan? That's because Hogan was so great, there was no way someone could meet his greatness. We don't say Lou Gehrig was a bad baseball player because Babe Ruth was the greatest hitter ever, do we?

    Again, that's great, but completely irrelevant.

    As did Hogan. :shrug:

    Hogan has put over plenty of guys, what the fuck are you talking about?

    Like Wrestlemania 6 or Wrestlemania 18? Tell me, has Cena EVER had a match as big as Wrestlemania 3? Nope.

    Yeah, not like Piper, Flair, Perfect, Savage, Luger, Sting, etc. :rolleyes:

    Only if you refuse to recognize who revolutionized pro wrestling into what it is today.

    Vote Hogan.
     
    #6
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  7. Daniel

    Daniel Of Ace Stevens fame.

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    Hogan was, and still is, to some extent, the face of professional wrestling.

    Movesets don't mean a whole lot. It's what you do with it that counts. And Hogan was widely considered to be a great worker.

    I'm not sure how relevant this is.

    And you know this for sure? How? And even if you can come up with something concrete, how relevant is it to the question "who goes over"?

    I guess one thing you never hear about Hogan is all the charity work he's done. Including being one of the most requested Make-A-Wish celebrities of the 1980s.

    Ah yes, Hulk Hogan. Famously undedicated to the business he's worked pretty much non-stop in since 1977. Ah Hulk Hogan, the man so undedicated to professional wrestling that he's willing to work in TNA.

    You know, if this tournament was about opinions, I'd feel the same way. I'd take Cena over Hogan all day long. But it's not. So I have to vote against him.
     
    #7
  8. FlexAmerican Dynamite

    FlexAmerican Dynamite RIP Cooper's Title Reign

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    Doesn't change the fact Cena in shorter amount of time has become just a influential maybe even more than Hogan.

    Sure in a period of time in which Hogan's move's were the norm.

    To a degree it kind of does, while I'm taking no credit away from Hulk Cena has just been more willing to put people over.

    convenient you took out the part where I said it was my opinion.

    It is, but I'm sure money had a huge factor in it as well.

    It would a tough and grueling match, but I just think Cena would come out on top.
     
    #8
  9. Remix

    Remix Is a thin rope

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    What the hell has Cena influenced? Hulkamania's impact on the business was a large factor in WWE being able to kill the territory system. Hulk Hogan in the nWo nearly killed WWE. Furthermore, everything that John Cena does now is what Hogan was doing back in the 80s.

    What's John done that can compare to that? Is John Cena a living legend in wrestling? Sure. Will he be considered one of the biggest names in its history down the line? Sure. But he's not Hulk Hogan and he doesn't deserve to win here.

    And Cena's aren't? Nothing Cena does in a match is out of the ordinary. All of his signature moves (or a close variation) is done by someone else on the roster and Cena's entire style is exactly the same as Hogan's. Excape that Hogan's the bigger star and better wrestler than Cena.

    And this is an argument for him going over because?

    Doesn't impact its relevance though? And besides, you know what they say: nice guys finish last.

    It's affected Cena in the same way. Or do you think he'd happily keep on truckin' if Vince stopped paying him?

    Against Prime Hogan? No, he wouldn't.

    I'm not a Hogan fan, I missed the boat on Hulkamania. But everything Cena is, Hogan was and more. John Cena is Hulk Hogan lite. Vote for the real deal. Vote Hogan, brother.
     
    #9
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  10. cult_of_icecream_bar

    cult_of_icecream_bar Pre-Show Stalwart

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    WWE made Hogan and Hogan made WWE a world phenomenon.Cena may look like the nicest wrestler but his no where near to hulk.I hate hogan for what he is in RL but in wrestling no one,i mean even the rock will fall behind the hulk in his prime.Cena loses clean,a lot but Hogan in his prime never lost clean.Vote Hogan.
     
    #10
  11. Slyfox696

    Slyfox696 Excellence of Execution

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    I see the idiots are out in full force in this match...
    Or just recognize the greatness of Cena.

    True, but pro wrestling is far more accepted mainstream than ever before, in large part because of people like John Cena. Even though wrestling was popular in Hogan's day, it was still something reserved for the bottom of the barrel type of people, the lowest common denominator. But even ESPN covers the WWE at times now, and they are constantly making comparisons to John Cena.

    Pro wrestling has never seen as much mainstream acceptance as they are currently enjoying, and that's thanks in large part to Cena.

    Steve Austin and Ric Flair would like to have a word with you.

    And the second time was thoroughly trounced when the WWE called his bet and raised him an Austin. Revolutionized? Perhaps, but Austin took it to a whole other level. Kind of hard to use that as an argument.

    No doubt about it, and usually his match with Andre is followed up with "...but it wasn't a very good match". And we see how well that Warrior thing worked out.

    If you take his entire career, yes. But we're not talking about entire career, we're talking about primes. Try to stay focus numbnuts.

    Pretty certain being a selfish asshole and not giving back to the business which made him all of his money before he ruined it by sleeping with his daughter's friend is significant. Only an idiot would think not putting guys over because of his selfish attitude would not play a part in this vote.

    Congratulations, three guys all overrated. Piper never won a World title, Slaughter is remembered far more for his heel run than any other time in his history and Flair was exposed as the overrated worker he was every time he got in front of a national audience.

    I didn't, I just didn't think midcarders belonged in this conversation. :lmao:

    :lmao:

    Yes, who could forget the Dungeon of Doom, the Yeti, and his oh so infamous win over Kevin Nash? Don't get me wrong, defeating The Butcher at Starrcade '94 is quite the accomplishment, but I'm just not certain how well it fits in this debate. :rolleyes:

    Because they suck, or are grossly overrated?

    Babe Ruth was a womanizing slob of a man. Hey, he does have something in common with Hogan after all!

    Did? Past tense? Thanks for proving my point. Cena has done nearly 200 Wish requests in the last 8 years. That doesn't include all the hospitals he's visited, all the military personnel he's visited, etc.

    Do you really want to play this game? Do you really want to play the "who's nicer" game? I'll guarantee you Cena will wipe the floor with Hogan.

    Like HBK? Like Bret Hart? Like Randy Orton? No, didn't think so.

    Actually, I was thinking more like Wrestlemania 28, Wrestlemania 22, Wrestlemania 23, ONS 06, RR 06, TLC 06, GAB 07, MITB 11, etc.

    But hey, good job posting a match which is considered by many to be a very poor match. That really helps your cause, you fuckwit. :thumbsup:

    :lmao:

    Half those guys you mentioned aren't in the Hall of Fame. Do you have any fucking clue what you're talking about before you post?

    I prefer to recognize the great guy who has put on great matches and has done such tremendous things for the business even mainstream media no longer looks down upon pro wrestling. In many ways, Cena has taken pro wrestling places even Hogan could never take it.

    Cena > Hogan
     
    #11
  12. Big Nick Dudley

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    Superman III in full swing, brother.

    Anyway, yeah, it's Hogan. Cena is, as others have pointed out, a miniature Hogan. He's not Hogan. He isn't even Austin, and Hogan's bigger/better than Austin. I can see Hogan putting Cena over, but not in their first contest.

    Hogan wins.
     
    #12
  13. Tastycles

    Tastycles Turn Bayley heel

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    To be honest, I'm keeping this brief because I don't want to get into the all encompassing debate that will ensue. In short, I'm voting for Hogan because he was more popular relative to other wrestlers at a time when wrestling more popular than it ever has been in Cena's career. When Cena faced someone who predated him in The Rock, he lost. When Hogan faced someone from the subsequent generation in Shawn Michaels, he won. I see no reason to give this to Cena, so Hogan gets my vote.
     
    #13
  14. Nate DaMac

    Nate DaMac Fuck erbody but me

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    Cena could win. I liken it to the Warrior/Hogan match from WM6; two guys who are undoubtedly crazy popular and top draws doing battle. Hogan is absolutely the bigger name overall, but he was when he took on Warrior as well. Cena in his prime, which is still in full swing by the way, is a bigger name than Warrior ever was so it's not out of this world to think that Cena would be booked to go over here as well.

    Hogan isn't the wrong choice here, but Cena winning wouldn't be a travesty either.
     
    #14
  15. Hollywood Naitch

    Hollywood Naitch The current reigning and defending

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    This would be a very interesting match to watch, both Cena and Hogan work a similar style, you could say that Cena is a modern-day Hogan in a way.

    But, if we are looking at who is greater then you have to go for Hogan. He DID bring wrestling up to a level it had never reached before, he is easily the biggest star the business has ever known and trancended wrestling and became a household name even for non-wrestling fans. Even today, ask someone who Hulk Hogan is as they will know even if they have never watched a wrestling match in their life.

    Cena and Hogan are both the faces of their generation, but if it came down to them meeting in their respective primes, Hogan would have gone over. Cena IS willing to put people over when he needs to, something Hogan has always been reluctant to do. Very rarely did anyone beat Hogan in his prime, and as this is not the final, I cannot see Hulk getting booked to lose.

    The match would end with a handshake between the two, but with Hulk's arm getting raised.

    Winner: Hulk Hogan
     
    #15
  16. Loveless

    Loveless A Life In Monochrome

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    I'm not going to get into a long discussion because I can't stand either of these two but Cena wins this. Hogan just got stuck in an hour long match against Cactus Jack/Mankind, he's not going to be in any kind of shape to beat Cena.
     
    #16
  17. Slyfox696

    Slyfox696 Excellence of Execution

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    Ironically enough, I was thinking the same thing the moment I saw your post...

    Well, that would put you in with roughly 50% of wrestling fans. When even 70% of wrestling fans recognize Cena's greatness, get back to me.

    So even though you claim they enjoy more mainstream success, he STILL can't draw what Hogan did in the day? Do you realize how stupid you sound?

    :lmao:

    Yes, because working for 3 years as a face is equivalent to what Hogan did for a decade. And Flair? There's a reason he flopped everytime he was put in front of a national audience every week.

    If it hadn't been for Hogan and the nWo, we would never have had Austin. If it hadn't been for Hogan, Austin wouldn't have made the WWF nearly as much money (thanks to things like merchandising).

    The fact of the matter is much of Austin's moneymaking was the direct result of Hulk Hogan's greatness. In fact, you could give a large percentage of credit to Hogan for the money Austin made.

    Once the fans are in the building, who cares? And the match with Andre wasn't really that bad at all. It was a pretty simple story, but it was told fairly well, there weren't too many mess-ups, and for what Andre was at that point in his career, it was a very solid match.

    And are you really saying that what happened to Warrior after the match has any relevance on the match itself? That's just ridiculous.

    :lmao:

    Numbnuts...the 1980s called and wants their insult back. Hogan, unlike any other worker, can claim to have two primes, one as the mega face and one as the mega heel. His career basically WAS his prime.

    Uh oh, logical fallacy alert! Poisoning the well is not a valid argument. Good try though. It doesn't distract from the point that Hogan's attitude is not relevant in this match.

    :lmao:

    I'm sorry, did you just say those three guys are overrated? Have you ever watched wrestling before 2005?

    Yes, because he never defeated Lex Luger or the Giant (now Big Show) or Savage again or Piper or Warrior...

    Here you are again, attacking Hogan's character, because you have nothing else to support your cause.

    That may be, but Hogan was doing this kind of thing decades ago before Cena ever got into the business. Why does it matter WHEN it was done?

    The most ridiculous argument ever. Hogan had no business losing to HBK or Orton. As far as Hart goes, Hogan lost to Yokozuna, who lost to Hart. It amazes me how people get so ridiculous about this sort of thing.

    Very fine matches, no doubt about it. But the point is Hogan has been in plenty of quality matches himself over the years, and since Hogan has proven he's a good worker, the fact he's the far more successful worker and the much bigger draw shows he's the right choice to advance.

    Yes, I'm sure that's what McMahon was thinking too...."Hogan drew 93,000 people to Detroit, and made me a boatload of money, but all I can worry about is whether they'll put on a good match". :lmao:

    What a ridiculous argument. And that's not even taking into account the fact the match was not a bad match at all, for anyone with an attention span greater than a 4 year old.

    Are you really trying to tell me Sting, Luger and Savage did not have Hall of Fame caliber careers? Get out of here with that nonsense.

    And yet, in many other ways, Cena can barely hope to spit shine Hogan's yellow boots. Like in drawing power, # of times revolutionizing the business, career success, etc.

    Hogan > Cena and it's not even close.
     
    #17
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  18. IrishCanadian25

    IrishCanadian25 Going on 10 years with WrestleZone

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    I maintain that voting for someone solely on the basis of their popularity or drawing power is silly. It's a criterion, but it isn't the only criterion.

    Cena and Hogan strike each other out in almost every way. Hogan is a big strong power wrestler. So is Cena. Cena sells tons of merch and gets crazy reactions from fans. So did Hogan. Hogan beat some of the all time greats in big time matches. So did Cena. Cena helped wrestling become mainstream relevant. So did Hogan.

    In reading the argument that Slyfox had with Slyfox earlier, I agree with Slyfox. Cena being a nice guy is irrelevant. If "nice guy" was a worthy criterion in this tournament, then you may as well chalk up first round losses to Shawn Michaels, Vader, Randy Orton, Triple H, and Brock Lesnar right now.

    I'm backing Cena for a few main reasons. Tear them apart if you want.

    First, Cena has wrestled - and defeated - a roster with more skill and more variety than Hogan did. Hogan, a power guy, had many of his biggest matches with other power guys / brawlers. Iron Sheik, King Kong Bundy, Andre the Giant, Earthquake, Roddy Piper (not a power guy but a brawler), Don Muraco, Paul Orndorff, Ultimate Warrior, Sgt. Slaughter, The Undertaker, Sid Justice, Yokozuna. Ted DiBiase and Randy Savage were two noted exceptions.

    Cena has transcended the business at a time when pro wrestling is saturated with marketable and versatile guys. Edge. Orton. HHH. Michaels. Show. Punk. In back to back months, Cena carried a legend like The Rock to an excellent match at Wrestlemania, only to work an intense one-month program with Brock Lesnar during which Cena had his head busted open the hard way by a former UFC World Champion. Hell, in Hogan's first prime, if he so much as appeared on TV twice in one month it was a lot.

    Second reason is the other layers to Cena's game. Hogan had his big moves - the hulk up, the right hand, the big boot, the body slam, the leg drop. Crowd ate it up. As he aged, however, and the competition got wise to it, they started anticipating the moveset. Warrior scouted the leg drop, moved, countered, and beat him. People could very well have done the same to Cena, but he went ahead and added the STF to his repitoire, which he has shown the ability to apply as a counter to many situations. When you think of Hogan, you don't think anything close to submission wrestling. With Cena, you have to at least respect its existence.

    I get the Hogan legacy, I really do. Cena takes some of Hogan's best qualities and adds just that much more to make him just that much better. Vote Cena.
     
    #18
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  19. Cmills005

    Cmills005 Dark Match Jobber

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    I feel weird even questioning something you say as every time I read your comments I find myself nodding along and agreeing, even be swayed in opinion, but I must be critical on this point. Couldn't we use the exact same logic with the exact same wrestlers to make the exact OPPOSITE conclusion? When Hogan faced someone from the era between these two , The Rock, he lost. When Cena faced someone from that era, HBK, he won. This is a fantastic argument for why Rock should beat both and both should beat HBK. But I don't see it having much weight for the two against one another.

    The more I think about this, the more traction Cena gains to me. As someone made the point of in the Foley/Hogan thread, If you can survive the Hulk up, you can take down Hulkamania. It's not automatic, but your chances skyrocket. Conversely, When opponents survive the Super Cena phase, yes their chances increase, but Cena has found ways to get the victory anyway.

    Make no mistake about it: Hogan will survive Super Cena, kick out of the AA and Hulk up. But don't be fooled, Cena WILL kick out after the Hulk Up and the Leg Drop. It's the essence of his character. So now what? Mnay times this is where Cena slaps on the STF (usually for a second time) and his opponent taps. Is Hogan going to do that? Highly doubt it. That's why I am starting to think THIS is how it ends:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIYbreKiJKw&feature=related

    NO ONE has EVER kicked out of an AA from the ropes
     
    #19
  20. Davi323

    Davi323 semi-retired from WZ

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    Well, the tournament is intended to treat the wrestlers in their prime. When Hogan wrestled the Rock at Wrestlemania X8, he was already far past his prime, as he was 49 years old. That Hulk Hogan is not the Hulk Hogan here. Here, we are talking about Hogan during his monster WWF run.

    This guy:

    [​IMG]

    not:

    [​IMG]

    1980s Hulk Hogan was significantly better than the Hulk Hogan the Rock faced, and even then, the 49 year old Hulk Hogan gave the Rock everything he could handle.
     
    #20
  21. Cmills005

    Cmills005 Dark Match Jobber

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    Fully understand. I am arguing that all of that is a wash anyway. Using the HBK and Rock matches really does not factor in my opinion. If Rock/Hogan happens thats when that argument can happen.
     
    #21
  22. Hulk Hogan's Brother

    Hulk Hogan's Brother Stop asking me what I'm gonna do!!!

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    I do not understand why some people are saying that Cena is a lesser Hogan. I basically feel that he is an improvement on Hogan.

    There is no denying the fact that Hogan is a bigger draw. But there were factors in his favor. People had never seen a product like what WWF promoted in the 80's. Hogan has had the advantage of coming first. Cena has come along in a generation which has seen and loved the antihero babyface. A generation that had grown tired of the heroic babyface with high morals. It is no secret that the Hogan formula of the ideal babyface wrestler failed in the mid 90's. But John Cena has found a way to make that formula work, albeit in a different way, but work well enough to become the top babyface of his generation.

    I have reasons to think that Hogan may not have been successful had he switched places with Cena. For one, as a face whose popularity was dwindling, he refused to even acknowledge the people who booed him. A big reason as to why Cena has found success is because he does acknowledge those who boo him. Cena is more versatile than Hogan, in my opinion. While at the core of his character he is a moralistic heroic babyface, he can trash talk with the best of them. Talent wise, I think Cena is greater than Hogan but Hogan came along first.

    As far as the match goes, I think Cena can certainly win. Hogan may have a superior winning record but it must be noted that Cena wrestles in an era where you must lose matches from time to time to keep the crowd interested in you. Basically, it is the side effect of there being too much wrestling to watch. This won't be a typical Hogan match with Hogan winning at around the 15 minute mark with the leg drop. Cena has been booked in longer matches and has often found a never seen before way to win. Hogan more or less sticks to a formula, Cena thinks out of the box. I think that his ability to last and his innovativeness will lead to Cena winning.

    Vote Cena.
     
    #22
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  23. Mr. Artistic guy

    Mr. Artistic guy Better Off This Way

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    I wanna analyse this in segments.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    OK. It's quite obvious when Hogan in his prime ran from. Wrestlemania 1 through to 8. 9 was highly suspect as we all know and Bret Hart was booked in the main event there anyway so the tides were clearly changing.

    From then, this is generally how things ran for Hogan.

    - January. New challenger. Heel. More often get's better of Hogan in first encounter (see; Earthquake, Undertaker, Sid Vicious, Andre, etc...), then get's pummelled in second encounter. April. Rince. Repeat. August. Rinse Repeat. January...

    The only exception which comes to mind is The Ultimate Warrior. That guy was an exception in and of himself. He's obviously a face guy and they're trying to bend things away from Hogan at this point because he's losing a bit of steam, and Warrior's picking it all up. Obviously, Hogan didn't tend to face faces very often back then, very rarely did you ever get a heel v heel or face v face match for a serious prize. The one time Hogan came up against a face like himself, he lost. Take that how you will.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    John Cena. Prime (06-present). So both guys have spent about as long on top as each other as solid faces. Both were the top guy in their company also. Much of what can be said for Hogan applies here to Cena, although it was booked in such a way so as to make it less obvious. A heel comes in and challenges Cena, get's the better of him in their first encounter but ultimately comes off worse in the end in the big match situation (Batista, Edge, Orton, Umaga etc...). That puts them on equal footing you would think.

    And then you had The Rock. Now this was a strange situation. He came in a bit like the way Hogan did around WM18 time, and they booked this match a year in advance. 'Cept a strange thing happened. This time around, the old beloved face won. He didn't put the current guy over and Cena had to go back to the drawing board. You could count that as being equal to Hogan's loss to Warrior, but Cena had already lost to his generations Warrior when he faced Batista years previous. No. This far better correlated to Hogan against Rock. Now. Rock is a mainstream celebrity, Hogan was pretty mainstream when they faced off but nowhere near as much as when Rock faced Cena. Also Rock was only around 40, Hogan was closer to 50, and Rock as we found out could still go in a major way in that ring. The two incidents aren't exact copies but the fact remains, when Rock was put in the situation that Cena was put in - He won. When Cena was put in that situation - Rock won again. This means overall you have to slip the edge to Hogan overall in booking terms.

    The only other way you're going to separate booking quality is to look at title reigns. Now it's hard to compare the amount that a title is defended 20 + years ago in comparison to now, but the records will state that hogan held the belt for 4 occasions during his prime and yet for a longer total combined time that John Cena has held his TWELVE world titles. What that means is, and factor in that I don't know how much more often/less often the belts were defended, but Hulk Hogan basically lost his title less often and he held it for longer on average when he had it. That's a fact. Now that could be all down to interference, but it isn't. Hogan had to contest with a humdrum of guys trying to help him lose the title, for The Earthquake it was Dino Bravo, for Andre it was Bobby Heenan and so on. Cena had the likes of the edgeheads for Edge, Armando Estrada for Umaga and others but the fact remains when interference became a factor, Hogan still won his matches more often than he lost them. John Cena did not.

    Overall in booking terms I have to award this to: Hulk Hogan.

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    Alright, now, can we compare ability? No? Fuck off, I'm doing it anyway.

    Hulk Hogan. There was nothing like watching him walk through the curtain. There still isn't. There's been bigger pops, but I don't believe anybody has been able to get people as pop as consistently as he managed. He did it more or less consistently for almost a decade. It was only really when he went to WCW that people started to not buy it (people have said that he began to get booed in about '94 because people just weren't buying the act any more). Either way. For a long period of time Hogan wasn't just THE guy, he was more or less the only guy. He brought about a change in the wrestling business, like it or hate it, it brought in a lot of money at a time and it changes wrestling forever.

    You don't do something like that without being someone special. Hogan had this amazing innate ability to get fans to just love him, react to every single movement he did, there were guys like him before him, but none of them were as good as he were and there has been nobody quite like him since (except for John Cena of course). In the ring, he had exactly what he needed to be the guy he became, eye rake, 10 punches in the corner, body slam, lost momentum, take a beating, mount comeback, fail, about to lose, Hulk up, "NO!" whilst shaking finger, three punches, off the ropes, big boot, leg drop, 1.. 2.. 3.. one of the simplest and most effective formulas every concocted. It won him countless matches, and he was good at selling a match in it's entirety. It's why he went 20 minutes with an over the hill Andre, looked down and out and still came up, won and got the pop of his life.

    And could he talk? Do you even need to ask the question, Jack? See brother, it's by taking all those vitamins DOOD and saying all those prayers, my little hulkamaniacs that hulk became the biggest of all time, and y'know something brothers, it was a work of art. Yeah, he could talk, he was over, he was pretty much faultless. You can't blame him for his character expiring after about 10 years, it was bound to come to a close eventually, and yet with so little character alteration he managed to maintain his popularity for that long. That takes something special, and someone special to makes sure it stays in check. So he may seem slow in the ring, he was not exactly HBK, his mic work didn't break moulds or boundaries, he was no Mick Foley, but it was everything it needed to be at that time, and it just worked. So yes, he had ability by the cask.

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    John Cena. Paste and copy OK everyone?

    No seriously.

    Can't really say anything I haven't just already.

    It's going to be a waste of my finger cartilage...

    Honestly, not worth the time...

    No, really, not doing it.

    Really!

    REALLY!!

    OK, fine.

    John Cena. Some could say I had some disparaging comments towards Cena in another of these tournaments threads. I basically said to condense things that WWE wanted to get him to be their guy from day one. He came out having a match with Kurt Angle who was a true main eventer in his first television appearance. His second appearance of the night was Taker putting him over backstage. That's just, such an amazing rub from two of the absolute dons.

    But if that sounds like a back-handed complement, like he isn't good enough to be where he is, or he only got there by being hand-picked, I want to clarify. Although I do believe they gave him their seal of approval from the very start of his career, you don't keep a position like that unless you work hard for it and fill the shoes that are given to you. He dbuted in 2002, in 2003 he had earned this little diddy: "PWI Most Improved Wrestler of the Year" That's out of everybody in wrestling, one single year after his debut. Not bad. What happened next year: "PWI Most Popular Wrestler of the Year". So he debuted two years ago, and he's already THE most popular guy in all of wrestling. That really sort of parallels what Hogan did. Wait, he won the year after as well? AND in 2007?

    That's the point. Don't think I'm putting Cena down because he got given a shot, Hulk Hogan got given a shot too and in the same vein he ran with it. Cena got his shot and he quite clearly ran with it, he filled those shoes, he proved to be everything WWE had hoped and expected he might be and more. John Cena can wrestle,, he can wrestle exceedingly well, and when people argue to the contrary he continues to prove them wrong by producing, Cena vs. HBK, Cena vs. CM Punk, Cena vs. The Rock, Cena vs. Brock Lesnar. He has improved in the ring over time, and he's a proven ring general at this present time.

    So once again, can he talk? Lol. Talking is what he does best. Even the biggest Cena HtEER would not deny that he can go on the stick. It's how he sells a match, better than anybody. If you want buys, the best idea is to stick Cena on the RAW before your PPV and just give him 10-15 minutes, then you're done. Instant buys. If anything Cena is a better talker than Hogan. Whilst Hogan could talk fine, Cena can literally sell a match with a promo whereas Hogan's were already sold beforehand and merely enhanced by whatever he said. Cena is more innovative, a skill I hold highly in regard, more powerful in a bigger range of ways.

    So who do I pick then? I've gotta score it for somebody. For a while I've had a thought floating around in my head, and it's a very simple thread of logic. What IS John Cena as a character in the WWE, and what was Hulk Hogan? Well the answer is quite simple , they are both faces! And how do you tell a face is a face, it's not by the way they act. Stone Cold used to curse, drink, give people the finger, attack who he liked and the people loved him. The way you know if a guy is a face, is if the people cheer. It's indisputable. John Cena's job in the WWE is to be a face, he's the guy that always goes up against heels and walks the straight and narrow path, rises above hate and stands for hustle, loyalty and respect, and a faces job is to get people to cheer for them. In this respect, John Cena is not as good as Hulk Hogan. A divided audience getting a pop is not as good as an audience on the same page all cheering the same guy at the same volume. The only way John Cena get's out of this is by an override where he is a new type of wrestling character, not face, heel or tweener, but just a human being. Some people like him, some people hate him and it's realism at it's finest. Nobody has the support of everybody. The issue with this is that it still isn't as good as getting EVERYBODY on your side as Hogan used to.

    People have made this argument for a good while that it's not about getting a face reaction, it's just about getting the loudest reaction. The reasoning is that people will pay to see John Cena get beat if they don't like him. I refute this. I say for every guy who buys a PPV for the main sake of seeing John Cena lose, there's going to be another that just get's turned off that someone they like isn't on top and you'll steadily drop viewers. That seems to be the case if we look at ratings. Every year since John Cena became the household name associated with the WWE, their ratings have dropped. Slowly, gradually and not by much, but unmistakably. Hogan started becoming a mega-star prior to WM 1 but he drew 93,000 plus in attendance to the Silver Dome a couple of years after that. As KB said somewhere else, the most watched match in television history happened between him and Andre in 1988, that's almost four years after he achieved stardom. Whilst wrestling got better, more mainstream and more popular consistently for a while under Hulk Hogan, it's just slowly tilted downwards under Cena, like trifle left in the fridge at an angle.

    Whilst I'm not going to trifle over ability, because there's very little to choose from, both guys are awesome, I think Hulk Hogan did his job better than Cena has done. Whether it's uniting the crowd, or bringing in a new generation of fans, the Cenation just isn't as prolific as the little Hulkamaniacs and it's what led me to score this round for Hogan.

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    Drawing power. Gotta be Hogan. Cena's been the main eventer for most Wrestlemania's he's been a part of, and as such like Hogan, he's been the main person you place the number of buys upon and he's drawn a lot of them. But PPV buys weren't around during the Hogan era. If they had been we all know they'd have done some pretty huge numbers. But Hogan did draw crowds of over 70 thousand in times when advertising such events wasn't as easy. No internet. There was still plenty of choice of promotion to watch, but Hogan drew massive numbers that came from anywhere and everywhere even if it was difficult for them to come and see him. It's probably part conjecture you could argue, but Vince McMahon has said his most lucrative superstar was Stone Cold, and behind him was Hulk Hogan. I think drawing is something you have to give to Hogan here.

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    This is match for the ages. It's more similar than Rock against Hogan, it's superman vs. superman. Which superman wins. When all things considered, I have to go with the original superman who set the wrestling world alight, and not the one with which it dwindled. The original did it all first, he did it all better and he did it for longer on a more consistent basis. Hogan it is says I.
     
    #23
  24. nightmare

    nightmare ...7, 8, Better stay up late...

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    Without Hulkamania there would be no Cenation.

    That should be plenty enough to argue a Hogan victory if you want to go with the 'legacy' argument. The man turned wrestling into the huge phenom it is today. Without Hogan, there wouldnt be such a grand stage for Cena to perform on. Just that alone should tell you alot. No matter how many big wins Cena has, he will not do what Hogan did for this business. Hogan made history, Cena just adds to it.


    Now this.

    Hogan is the man when you think of come from behind victories. Takes a beating, Hulk up, Boot\Leg Drop. Game over. Cena has made a career off of stealing Hogan's thunder there- brother. Question is, could he come back after Hogan 'Hulked Up'? I just dont think so.


    Great back and forth match. Finishers countered on both ends, Hogan slips the AA and Cena avoids the boot once but not twice. Leg drop by Hogan, but Cena kicks out. Big staredown time. I see an AA putting Hogan down, kickout. I see Cena slap on the STF and Hulk gets to the ropes. Now Cena is frustrated and gets the same look on his face that he had at WM against Rock. Hogan gets up and the 5 moves of doom begin. Problem is that after the 5 knuckle shuffle- Hogan pops up. Cena tries to punch him down but Hogan Hulks Up. Cena is screwed. Punches exchanged and then Cena goes for the AA again. Hogan gets out, irish whip, big boot- leg drop. Cena is done.


    Original 'moves of doom' beat out the new version by Cena. I just dont see Hogan losing this battle against the lesser Hulkamania ripoff. Cena couldnt overcome the rising CM Punk or the aged version of Rock- when they were must win situations while being considered the face of the company. How will he beat a prime Hogan at the peak of Hulkamania?

    Vote Hulk Hogan.
     
    #24
  25. Hulkamaniac

    Hulkamaniac Vote Hogan, Savage, Rocky and Thesz

    Joined:
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    The answer is easily Hulk Hogan. Anyone saying otherwise...well, they're just being ridiculous.

    Lets start with the position, shall we:

    1. Importance to History: Clearly this is a big edge to Hogan. Hogan revolutionized the industry not once, but twice. Cena is the face of the industry in the midst of the industry trying to find a new groove. Right now wrestling is moving AWAY from Cena's character and style, while Hogan invented it. He's unarguably the greatest babyface in the history of pro wrestling and arguably the greatest heel. Cena is a face who can't get the crowd entirely behind him...or even close to it.

    Most importantly, there is NOTHING Cena is doing that Hogan hasn't already done, and done better. Hogan had the bigger, more important matches. His matches against Andre, Savage, Warrior and Sting (Starrcade 97) are all bigger, more important matches in wrestling history than anything Cena's done.

    Hogan was the biggest star in 3 of the biggest angles in wrestling history: Andre turns heel, Mega Powers Explode and the nWo. Cena hasn't been involved in ANYTHING that rivals the importance or spectacle of any of these 3 angles.

    Hogan headlined the first 8 Wrestlemania's, and went on last at the first 9. Cena has Main Evented a few, but none as notable or important as most of Hogan's with the possible exception of his recent match against the Rock. Another point against Cena goes here: when Hogan was on top, they didn't bring in "past stars" to boost his sales at Wrestlemania like they obviously feel the need to do with Cena.

    2. Drawing Power: This is an easy one. Hogan is the top draw of all time. Hogan was the face of the WWF during it's best run, relative to the economy. Cena is the face of the company during a very down period for the industry. This isn't even close.

    3. Charisma: John Cena is a very charismatic man, but Hulk Hogan won a charisma litmus test against the Rock. Cena got his doors blown off by the same man.

    4. Promos: Due to the era differences, the style of promos is different. Cena's best mic work was when he was in his Thuganomics character. In his relative prime as the "Hogan-Lite" character, his promos have been bland and confusing, with Cena often shifting his tone from sentence to sentence. First he's joking, then he's serious, then he's laughing, then he's intense, then he's making fun of his opponent, etc. Hogan's promos were all about intensity and emotion, and he never failed to evoke the emotions he was looking for. The crowd invariably went nuts for Hogan, while Cena gets what we shall politely call a mixed reaction.

    5. Work Rate: Neither man is the DYnamite Kid, but both guys are capable of putting on a great show in the ring. Cena is the more athletic and agile man. Hogan was the stronger man, kayfabe (and probably in real life, since he's just bigger than Cena) and the stronger technical wrestler as evidenced by his work in Japan. However, since his prime in America is what we're discussing, I'd give Cena this category. I enjoyed Hogan's matches more because he told a better, more emotional story, but Work Rate has evolved to mean "who does more stuff" and that's Cena.

    6. Crowd Reaction: I split this out to address something somebody said earlier about Cena "embracing" the boos whereas Hogan ignored them. That is such a ridiculous argument, I normally would just ignore it, but since I stumbled on this earlier today I thought I would share. Now, somehow it is being twisted that because Cena, a face, is unable to get the majority of the crowd to cheer for him, that makes him BETTER than Hulk Hogan, who, as a face, got 99.9% of the crowd to cheer for him unconditionally for, what, 9 years? Lets check in how long Cena managed to pull off that feat with your average lay wrestling fan, "The Sports Guy" Bill Simmons!

    http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/060412

    Now lets count Cena's Main Event run as having started at Wrestlemania 21, when he won his first world title. That was in 2005. Any guess as to when this article was written? If you guessed just after Wrestlemania 22 in 2006, you are correct! Cena made it at best 12 months (note the language from Simmons talking about Cena being booed for months leading up to this, so it is likely less) before losing the fans! By the criteria of "fans boo him even though he's a face", Cena is probably the GOAT. But trying to make this some kind of "plus" for him in this debate is ridiculous.

    Now, for the most important argument:

    KAYFABE

    Lets compare there characters in their prime. Hogan almost never lost. Not even by "nefarious means". Cena loses all the time. Cena is a cookie cutter do-gooder face. Hogan wasn't above throwing in a little extra (raking the eyes/back, biting the forehead, etc.) HOgan is a big, strong dude prone to incredible rushes of adrenaline that make him nearly impossible to put down, or even feel pain. Cena is constantly in pain and injured.

    The only guy who put Hogan down, clean, was a guy who could match his power, intensity, and connection with the crowd (thus taking away just a little bit of his Hulkamania power) and that was Ultimate Warrior. Cena isn't that strong nor that intense, and he does not have that connection with the crowd that Warrior did to take support away from Hogan. Cena is beloved by children. Hogan was beloved by children AND adults.

    I showed my nephew, a huge Cena fan, some of Hogan's old matches/promos on my Hulk Hogan anthology DVD and he was positively enthralled. Couldn't get enough of it. Even 25 years later, nobody connects with an audience like Hulk Hogan did. Cena would have nobody in the building cheering for him. It would be ECW Arena all over again.

    Hulk Hogan would win this match. Anyone saying otherwise is just letting their bias get in the way of their logical minds. Cena, for YEARS, has been lambasted as just doing Hogan's schtick, only worse. Now people are trying to pretend like they're on the same level? Like Cena has transcended the industry? What?

    The industry is moving AWAY from Cena's character, into more "worked shoot" programming.

    I repeat, Cena is THE BIGGEST STAR IN THE COMPANY and they think so highly of him that they're moving their product away from his style!

    You want to talk about transcending an industry, THIS is transcending an industry:

    [YOUTUBE]RDNGCIt8XPA[/YOUTUBE]

    THIS is transcending an industry:

    [YOUTUBE]QyGc-rJ2Vpg&feature=fvwrel[/YOUTUBE]

    THIS is transcending an industry:

    [YOUTUBE]qPTiGlUh9uw&feature=fvst[/YOUTUBE]

    THIS is transcending an industry:

    [​IMG]

    Vote Hogan. Honestly, it's not even close.
     
    #25
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