Loser's Bracket Debate #12: deanandterry -vs- Talon

Discussion in 'Debater's League 2012' started by D-Man, Apr 5, 2012.

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  1. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Can Rey Mysterio benefit from turning heel?


    This is a first round, Loser's Bracket debate in the 2012 Wrestlezone Debater's League Tournament.

    Talon won the coin toss and will be the home debater. He's earned the right to choose EITHER which side of the debate he wants to argue OR who provides the opening statement. He can also defer this choice to his opponent. (The home debater has 24 hours to make this decision otherwise it is automatically deferred to his opponent.)

    After these choices are made, the first post of the debate must be posted within the first 24 hours otherwise it will affect the starter's Punctuality portion of the judging. Debaters have 24 hours to respond to their opponent's post and the faster the response, the better chance you have to score higher point totals.

    The maximum amount of posts for each debater in this round is three. Once this criteria is met, (or the allotted time of the debate runs out,) the debate will end and judging will commence.

    This thread is for DEBATERS ONLY and will end on Wednesday at 2pm EST where judging will immediately begin. Judging must be finished no later than Saturday at 2pm EST.

    Anyone that posts in this thread besides the debaters, league admins, and judges will be infracted!

    Good luck to the participants.
     
    #1
  2. The Talon

    The Talon Occasional Pre-Show

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    I shall choose posting order. I will let deanandterry go first.
     
    #2
  3. Poop Master Flex

    Poop Master Flex Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Looks like I'm going first and I will take the side Rey will NOT benefit from turning heel.
     
    #3
  4. Poop Master Flex

    Poop Master Flex Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Why Rey staying face is the best idea for both the man and the company

    His wrestling style SCREAMS face

    Rey has been known throughout his career as one of the greatest high flyers the business has ever seen. He is fast paced and flashy and although he has slowed down throughout the years he still heavily relies on his high flying tactics to wow the crowd and to get people to their feet, its what initially got Rey on the map in the first place. He has never been a great talker and has heavily relied on his in ring work to get him over with the crowd and its that in ring style that has won over the crowd and essentially made Rey what he is today.

    A heel is grounded, dirty and although a heel can do high flying moves they mostly rely on their work on the ground and cheating. Alberto Del Rio is a good example of this. Del Rio has some flash to his in ring work but for the most part he sticks to technical wrestling and submission, I can't think of 1 massively over heel who was a high flyer. Why? Because when the crowd see's someone fly off a ladder, a cage, or hit a move like the 619 its so impressive to watch that its a natural instinct to cheer, the style is very appealing to the eye. Even if you see a heel hit a high flying maneuver like in an Ultimate X match, the crowd goes to their feet because no matter how much you hate a wrestler its impossible not to be impressed with the flashiness and athleticism it takes to pull off such a maneuver, Scott Steiner can't hit a Frankensteiner without the crowd erupting and he's been a heel for years.

    Rey is 37 and for him to even have an outside shot as a heel he has to change EVERYTHING about him. He has to abandon everything that brought him to the dance in the 1st place and that's a hard thing to accomplish when being a high flyer baby face is all you know.

    No one wants to boo a superhero underdog

    This is a big appeal to the Mysterio character. Rey Mysterio over the years has been built as a pint sized superhero of sorts. He is billed as the ultimate underdog, a person who constantly faces overwhelming odds and somehow, someway overcomes those odds even when the deck is stacked against him. People love to get behind a character that constantly overcomes impossible odds because it speaks to society in general, in a way a character like Mysterio gives people hope, someone to look up to, someone to believe in. Mysterio is wrestling's version of Spiderman, who want's to boo Spiderman?

    Once upon a time WCW tried to make Mysterio and it never worked. Although they took away his mask which made him look like a 12 year old didn't help his size was a bigger reason for this. A successful heel has to look strong whether its being big, being bad, or being tough, Mysterio is none of these things. His size works against him as a heel because being his size automatically makes him the underdog. You look at Mysterio and you automatically think "This guy has no chance" which makes you want to see him win even more. No matter what you change about Mysterio his character and size will always make him the underdog and no one boo's the underdog, it goes against human nature in general.

    Rey is a bonafide legend who is respected

    Rey is someone who has busted his ass for 20 years in the ring and through perseverance and incredible in ring skills he has become more than a face, he has become a respected member of the wrestling community and has won the respect of the fans, he is a legend of the business and one of its most recognizable faces.

    Its difficult to boo someone you respect, even if you don't like them as a person. The Undertaker is a perfect example of this. The Undertaker couldn't be a heel anymore if he tried because he is too over and too respected by the fans. He buried Paul Bearer in cement and the next week people acted like he did nothing and were cheering him like crazy. Austin is the same way. They tried to make Austin a heel but people liked him too much, a person can't be booed unless people want to boo him. Hogan pulled it off but he did it because he is a great talker but more so because his popularity started to wane, people were getting sick of Hogan and were ready to boo him. Mysterio is still massively over with the crowd and no matter how hard he tries and what he does, it will never be enough to fully turn him.

    Mysterio has become too liked and too respected over the years and because of this people won't boo him because they simply don't want to. You can't make the fans do anything they don't want to. WWE recently made The Rock the heel in his feud against Cena and we all saw how that turned out. Mysterio is simply too over as a face to get booed. Rey turning heel would be like Ricky Steamboat turning heel, no one wants to boo him therefore they won't.
     
    #4
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  5. The Talon

    The Talon Occasional Pre-Show

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    Why Rey Mysterio needs to turn heel
    Now, we've all seen Rey Mysterio as a face for some time now. Actually, scratch that, he's been face for a long time now. And I mean long, so here's why he needs to turn heel.

    He is stale as a face
    Now, everywhere you go, people can' stand John Cena. Y'know what people say when they're asked why they hate him? Because his character as a face is stale. They constantly wish for him to turn heel, because it can freshen up his character which he desperately needs to. Rey Mysterio is in the exact same situation. Now yes, there's no crowds that chant "Let's go Rey-Rey! Rey-Rey sucks!". But there are many members of the WWE Universe that don't like him. The reason why they don't like him? Because his character is stale. People are sick & tired of seeing John Cena "overcoming the odds" each & every week. Do we really want to see Rey Mysterio "overcome the odds" each & every week. If a wrestler stays with the same character for too long, fans will turn on them. Look at Hulk Hogan back at WCW in the '90s. People were sick of the same old thing, so WCW did the unthinkable & turned Hulk Hogan heel. And you know what happened? It was the biggest thing to happen to Hulk Hogan, WCW, & professional wrestling in general. Rey Mysterio has done the same old "overcoming the odds/ultimate underdog/giant killer" bullcrap for far too long. It's time for a change in Rey Mysterio, & turning heel can accomplish that & more.

    He can do more as a heel than as a face
    Now, I've gone on about how turning heel can reinvigorate Rey's career. Now, I want to show how. Like i've said before, Rey has gone throughout the same storyline for the past 10 years. 10 years. But as a heel, there's a multitude of new storyline he can do, that he wouldn't have been able t do before. Rey's been around for along time, & he's built up a heavy fanbase because of his timespan in WWE. So, what if Rey starts letting it get to his head? He hears so many people telling him that he's one of the greatest luchadors of all-time, & he starts believing that more & more. He starts demanding that WWE give him more things. More money, more TV time, more benefits because, in his mind, he's a legend, & many people would argue that he is a bonafide legend. Eventually, this would take a bit of progression on the fans. They start to see that the humble, underdog that they had been on love with is gone. And he's been replaced with a new Rey Mysterio. A man obsessed with the spotlight, a veteran that refuses to pass the torch to the new generation. a legend that prides his past accomplishments over the present & future. I don't know about you, but I & many others would love to see a Rey Mysterio like that.

    There's no doubt in my mind that as a heel, Rey Mysterio could be fresher & better than ever before.
     
    #5
  6. Poop Master Flex

    Poop Master Flex Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Rey Mysterio may have been the same character since his WWE debut, but there is a BIG difference between being the same and being stale. Rey Mysterio is in no way stale, he has one of the largest fanbase's in WWE today and very rarely gets booed if ever. Rey is currently negotiating a big fat contract, why? Because he is worth it. There are many different fan's that will never boo Rey Mysterio namely the Latino community and that is a major chunk of the WWE's audience, much like Bret Hart could never get booed in Canada.

    Rey is also loved by kids and adults alike. He appeals to the little kids because of his super hero like gimmick and appeals to adults because of his skills in the ring and work ethic. Rey is also a merchandise monster and his masks have been a big seller for the WWE for years. The reaction he gets shows that even though Rey has made little changes over the years he is in no way stale as a face, if he was stale he wouldn't get the reaction he gets.

    First off John Cena has been getting mixed reactions since he started his gimmick. At Wrestlemania 22, 1 year into his "Super Cena" gimmick the crowd was pro Triple H. This is because John Cena wasn't accepted by much of the fanbase as "the guy" and the face of WWE. Rey Mysterio in that SAME night won his first World Title and got an amazing response from the crowd, the crowd went absolutely nuts for him and this was with Rey doing the so called stale gimmick for a much longer time than Cena was doing his Super Cena gimmick. The crowd accepted Rey and was happy the "ultimate underdog" who busted his ass day in and day out was finally getting his well deserved moment.

    When Hogan turned heel it was a different situation as well. Hogan was the face of 2 different companies for 10 of 12 years (84-92 in WWE and 94-96 in WCW) and was over saturated, people were seeing the same thing for 10 years straight getting little to no breaks in between. Even between 92-94 When Hogan wasn't THE GUY he was still around and his presence was still felt. People were sick of Hogan and the heel turn was a necessary step to keep him going, not only that its something that completely SHOCKED everyone and he had lots of help in the form of Scott Hall and Kevin Nash and the whole Invasion storyline. It wasn't just Hogan turning heel, it was everything surrounding it as well that made that turn so memorable.

    Hogan and Cena were CONSTANTLY in the main event, having main event feuds and were over exposed because of it, if anything is over exposed long enough people will get sick of it. It's like eating a steak every night, eventually you will get sick of it even if its Filet Mignon with a side of lobster.

    Rey on the other hand has never been a top guy and he hasn't been constantly in the main event, not to mention his multiple leaves of absence he takes from the company. Rey has never been shoved down the throats of fans, often feuds with mid card guys such as Dolph Ziggler and Chavo Guerrero and even though he is a constant he's not over exposed. Hogan and Cena were and are over exposed which makes it so much easier to get sick of them and want to see them do something different. Rey isn't like having a great steak every night, he's more like having a steak every few months, because you don't have it every night you appreciate it even more when you are lucky enough to have it.

    Ricky Steamboat is another guy who fits this mold. He was a babyface his ENTIRE career and not once did people get sick of Steamboat because he simply didn't need to become a heel to be relevant, he didn't need the change. Ricky also had mid card feuds with the likes of Steve Austin and much like Mysterio he didn't have to win every week and often put over many guys in defeat. Mysterio has lost the IC title (a mid card title) cleanly to John Morrison, someone who doesn't even work for the company and others like Khali, someone who is far from talented, not to mention he lost clean to Khali WHILE he was Heavyweight champion.

    Hogan and Cena were both over exposed and 9 times out of 10 came out on top. Rey has not been over exposed and will happily lose to anyone on the roster. Doing this helps build sympathy for Mysterio and keeps him the underdog, which makes it that much easier to like the guy. Not only does he often lose, he does it making himself and his opponent look like a million bucks, people appreciate a guy like that.

    Although I understand where you are going with but it will never work and let me tell you why. Rey has little to no mic skills, in order to pull off that gimmick you got to be able to deliver great promo's constantly in order for people to really buy it and get into the gimmick, Rey simply doesn't have the skills on the stick to make that happen.

    Also because of his size he will always be the underdog, even if he refused to step aside and pass the torch someone could simply take it away from him by force. If lets say Cena did that it would work, because he can talk and its easy to believe that it would be quite difficult for someone to push him aside because of his success and how big he is, not to mention unlike Mysterio Cena IS the top guy.

    Mysterio has never been THE top guy in a company, the torch is something 1 top star passes to the next top star (Andre to Hogan, Hogan to Goldberg, Hogan to The Rock, ect.), Mysterio never had the torch therefore he has no torch to pass. He never had the spotlight either like Hogan or Cena therefore there is no spotlight to hog, although he has always been a big star in the WWE he was never in that position. How can he hog a spot light and hog a torch he never had?
     
    #6
  7. The Talon

    The Talon Occasional Pre-Show

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    Hmm, a popular superstar that heavily appeals to kids & sells lots & lots of merchandise. I just wonder who that reminds me of? :rolleyes:



    This was the Wrestlemania after the death of Eddie Guerrero. Ever since Eddie passed, WWE had shoved down the fans throats that Eddie & Rey were BFFS, so that way when people thought of Rey, they would think of Eddie. If Eddie had never died, Rey Mysterio would have never gotten that pop, & he never would have won that match in the first place. That was not a pop for Rey Mysterio, that was a pop for the memory of Eddie Guerrero.

    That's what i'm arguing. Hulkster needed to turn heel to keep going, so does Rey Mysterio. Being the same character IS the same thing as being stale. Every time he shows up, Rey Mysterio cuts the same promo, the same matches, the same match finishes, so yes, he's reaching Hogan-levels of stale whether you'd like to admit that or not.

    WWE knows how big a merch seller he was, so they wanted him to show up as long as possible. WWE & Vince McMahon have even been know to be impatient whenever Rey is injured, because he can't show up as much as they want him to. If he could, fans would easily be sick of him as they would be for Cena & Hogan. If Rey was as healthy as those guys, WWE would easily have him show up each & every week, day in & day out.

    What does losing clean have to do with being non-stale? John Cena has lost to the Miz, CM Punk, & The Rock. Yet, he still hasn't evolved at all. Rey can lose as many matches as he wants, yet WWE would just use that to shove the "Ultimate Underdog" storyline down fans throats once more
    Again, John Cena was willing to put over The Miz, CM Punk, & The Rock. And yet, despite these loses, HE IS STILL STALE. Rey has lost matches before obviously, YET HE IS STILL STALE.

    The Hulkster himself doesn't exactly have the same mic skills he's had in his prime, & yet he's been able to pull off this gimmick to a tee. Rey Mysterio can easily do it as well.

    First, it was a hypothetical question for how his heel turn would go if anything. Secondly, that's the point. As a face, he's never been the top guy. And he never will be the top guy if stays face. Also, that's the point of his hypothetical heel gimmick. He has no torch to pass, he sees himself in the league of Hulk Hogan, El Santo, or John Cena, when at the end of the day, he isn't. He can hog a spotlight he's never had, because in hi mind, he believes there's always been a spotlight. WWE could easily turn a heel Mysterio vs John Cena feud into the big Summer Storyline of professional wrestling, with the right booking & character treatment, Rey Mysterio could thrive as a heel.
     
    #7
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  8. Poop Master Flex

    Poop Master Flex Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    You mean that guy who is worth 106 million dollars to the WWE and even though gets booed he is still massively over in that character. Remember it doesn't matter what reaction you get as long as you get it. If Cena and Rey get a reaction doing the same thing why change it?

    They haven't mentioned that fact in years, when was the last time they shoved that down our throats? Rey was getting massive pops long before Eddie died, take their ladder match at Summerslam '05 as an example, or the 1st time he won the cruiserweight title in '03, or his match against Angle in '02. Rey may not have become champion but don't for a second think that all his pops were because of Eddie, people were more than happy for Rey. It took Chavo 2 weeks to stop getting massive pops in Eddie's memory and he was RELATED to Eddie. It has a lot more to do with just Eddie dying, Rey was over before Eddies death and has stayed relevant and popular long after his death, even though they rarely mention Eddie and his relationship with Rey anymore.

    Are you saying people got sick of Ricky Steamboat doing the same thing for 20 years? Or The Road Warriors? These people very rarely evolved and were always massively over and NEVER stale. Constantly doing the same thing and being stale are indeed 2 different things. How is Rey's matches the same if he often loses? Hogan's level of popularity was waning when he turned heel, his pops weren't as loud and the crowd got quieter as the years went on. People still go nuts for Mysterio.

    This whole situation is hypothetical and has no ground whatsoever. You're saying IF Rey was there every week whenever Vince wanted him he WOULD be stale. The problem with that though that's NOT the situation at all. Mysterio ISN'T there every week, there's a big difference between a hypothetical situation you just described and the reality of the situation at hand.

    Yes Cena has lost but outside of The Rock how many of those losses have actually been clean without some sort of shady doings in the process? Because Mysterio doesn't win every week it is a bigger deal when it happens. People always expect Cena to win, you know at any time Mysterio can lose so its not as expected.

    They can't shove Mysterio down our throats if he's not there, Mysterio hasn't been mentioned in 6 months, its hard to shove someone down the fans throats if he simply isn't there.

    Hogan on his worst day on the mic is still 100 times better than Mysterio is on his best day, this is fact. Even if Hogan isn't as amazing on the mic as he once was he's still good enough to get the job done on the mic, Mysterio has yet to prove he can do the same. Mysterio often carries the matches but his opponent always carries the mic work to sell the feud, take his feud in 2010 with CM Punk and his Jericho feud in 2009 as examples of this.

    This helps prove my point even more, if whoever he's facing is good enough on the mic like Punk and Jericho it makes you want to see Mysterio overcome the odds and beat him even more, or take revenge like he did when Chavo injured his knee. Even though he was still doing the same gimmick for those many, many years people still wanted to see Mysterio in those feuds and see him win those matches.

    The thing is when Cena and Hogan beat their enemy they do it so convincingly you don't want to see it again because the opponent wasn't on their level. Whether its in victory or defeat Mysterio always makes his opponent look strong (except JBL but he was leaving anyways) which makes it easier to revisit those feuds with a new twist. Almost anyone against Mysterio is a worthy challenge because he's the underdog, Cena and Hogan on the other hand always come off as in a league of their own and look so strong against their opponents you simply don't buy them facing anyone else. That's why they had him feud with The Rock and now Lesnar, those are the only people who are believable enough to give Cena a run for their money.

    Mysterio is like the blues or Beavis and Butthead, even though it doesn't
    change much you never get sick of it.

    Wrestling although scripted is most effective when it comes off as organic and real. Because he's so small and such an underdog you can't believe Mysterio as an effective heel. A heel has to look strong and give the face a worthy challenge for it to look, no matter how hard he tries in the fans eyes he will never look strong or threatening to anyone he ever faces, that's why he is so effective as a face, no matter who he faces (unless its Hornswoggle or most diva's) he always comes off as the underdog because he couldn't look threatening to a face if he tried.

    Lets say they turned Mysterio heel the way you described and had a program with Cena through the summer. Who would believe Mysterio is in any way a threat to Cena? He's too small, doesn't have the mic skills to sell himself as strong and everyone and their dog know Cena will murder him, take away any believability (if any) Mysterio had as a heel and after that his push is done. Mysterio could be an effective heel for maybe 3 weeks, after that people would realize he's small, wouldn't take him as a threat and would stop caring. WCW tried to make Mysterio a heel before and he went from being an uber popular face to a generic heel who got no reaction from the crowd because they didn't buy it.

    Mysterio has tried to play the heel and failed miserably, Hogan and Cena have both proven to be effective heels and they did it before they became the face of a company. The truth is Mysterio's track record as a heel has been abysmal, his track record as a face however has been extremely successful.
     
    #8
  9. Dagger Dias

    Dagger Dias Natural 20
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    Time has run out for Talon to post his conclusion. Judging will now begin for this round.


    Clarity: deanerandterry. This one was close, but deanerandterry did the better job of posting in a more organized style.

    Punctuality: deanerandterry. He finished his side of the debate.

    Informative: deanerandterry. This part was difficult for me to pick, but deanerandterry brought in some excellent piece of information on his opening post that helped him keep his stance in the posts that followed.

    Persuasion: deanerandterry. Both his opening and concluding posts really stood out, and he was more convincing than Talon was in his posts.

    I score it as: deanerandterry 5, Talon 0.
     
    #9
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  10. CH David

    CH David A Jock That Loves Pepsi

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    Clarity - deaner gets this one. Cleaner and a lot more spacing. Solid work.

    Point - deanerandterry

    Punctuation - Talon didn't show up for the end.

    Point - deanerandterry

    Informative - Another debate with a lack of links, videos, and pictures. Disappointing. But I liked his points in the open. Good Ricky Steamboat comparison.

    Point - deanerandterry

    Persuasion - It doesn't help when you miss the last part of your debate. But deaner kicked ass anyway. His point were well thought out, and well defended, even if he didn't use outside sources. Just didn't feel like Talon was into it on his side either.

    Points - deanerandterry

    CH David scores this deanerandterry 5, Talon 0.
     
    #10
  11. FunKay the Inevitable

    FunKay the Inevitable People Like Me, We Don't Play

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    Clairty: Talon did a solid job spacing stuff out, but deanerandterry had the original OP style before Talon did. I'm not suggesting he copied him, just he was in first.

    Punctuality: deanerandterry for obvious reasons.

    Informative: deanerandterry. He lacked..wel pretty much anything, but so did Talon. The Ricky Steamboat thing is pretty mcuh what saves him.

    Persuasion: CH David, if I may use you as a quote sir:

    deanerandterry wins the point.

    FunKay Scores It: deanerandterry:5, Talon: 0
     
    #11
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  12. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Even if Talon gets a perfect score from SavageTaker, he cannot win this bracket. Therefore, deanandterry has clinched his defeat over Talon by a score of 15-0. He will move onto Loser's bracket #17 to face nightmare.

    Unfortunately, Talon, you have been eliminated from this year's tournament.
     
    #12
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