Los Angeles Region, Finals: (3) Hart Foundation vs. (5) Steiner Brothers

Discussion in 'Los Angeles Region' started by Rainbow Yaz, Oct 20, 2014.

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Who Wins This Matchup?

  1. Hart Foundation

  2. Steiner Brothers

Multiple votes are allowed.
Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. Rainbow Yaz

    Rainbow Yaz Sing about me, I'm dying of thirst
    E-Fed Mod

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    This is a fifth round match in the Los Angeles Region. It's a standard tag team match held in the Staples Center.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    5. Steiner Brothers

    Vs.

    [​IMG]

    3. Hart Foundation


    Vote for who you feel is the better team. The poll will be open for FIVE days starting approximately twenty four hours after this thread is posted. Use the time to argue and defend your choices. In the case of a tie, the team with more written votes will win. Only one vote per user.

    Remember that this is a non-spam section and posts that do not meet our spam requirements will not count.

     
    #1
  2. nightmare

    nightmare ...7, 8, Better stay up late...

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    Steiners win.


    While The Hart Foundation was good, the team was short lived in the grand scheme of things. A few appearances on some big shows, good matches with the likes of The Bulldogs, Demolition, etc & a total of 2 WWF tag title wins. Sure they were a fond part of my memory growing up, but I more remember it being what launched Bret into singles glory.


    Now The Steiner Brothers, on the other hand, kicked ass across various promotions for a decent amount of time before splitting. They matched Bret\Anvil's 2 WWF tag title wins & raised them with 2 IWGP titles, a US Tag title run (which they never lost-ended at over 220? days and vacated due to winning the WCW World Tag straps), 7 WCW World Tag titles & a handful of others throughout the years. That puts what the boys in pink and black did to shame.


    Winning gold & accolades aside, this team is just better IMO. Anvil's strength is taken down a few pegs by Scott & the brothers were damn fine mat wrestlers who could have given Bret a run for his money. (especially before Scott turned into a cartoon & had trouble keeping his arms down to his side) This would be a great match to watch, but in the end I see the explosive power of the Michigan suplex machines taking the win.


    Vote for Rick & Scott, grab a beer and call it a day.
     
    #2
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  3. Wolf Pac

    Wolf Pac Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Great Finals. Tough matchup. It's power, speed and technique vs. power, speed and technique.

    My decision though is going to one of my favourite tag teams, mah boys...The Steiner Brothers.

    While Jimbo covers the power portion of The Hart Foundation and Bret covers the speed and technique portion of his team, both Steiner Brothers have power, speed, technique, even athletisicm. And although Neidhart and Rick aren't all there in the head, I believe the boys from the University Of Michigan to be smarter in the ring than The Harts. Did you know Scott was planning on becoming a school teacher before Rick convinced him to join pro-wrestling? Rick will take care of Anvil and they'll take their brawl outside of the ring, leaving Bret and Scott alone in the ring and using his freakish strengh, Scott will Suplex, Frankensteiner, and Steiner Screwdriver The Steiners to victory.

    Hit "Welcome To The Jungle" by Guns N' Roses, this tournament has been STEINERIZED!

    [​IMG]
     
    #3
  4. Hollywood Naitch

    Hollywood Naitch The current reigning and defending

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    I'm going to go with The Steiners also.

    During his run as a Tag Team competitor, Bret Hart hadn't reached the levels he did when he went out on his own in singles, so I think these teams are pretty well matched. Rick Steiner and Jim Neidhart are both big tough bastards so I'd say they cancel each other out (although Rick has more technical ability than The Anvil), and this leaves Bret v Scott.

    Bret has the incredible technical know-how but so does Scott Steiner, plus Scotty has that power and intensity that Hart simply doesn't. His explosive power, range of innovative suplexes and freakish athleticism will give the Steiner's the win here. It would be a fantastic match though with both teams in their primes.
     
    #4
  5. MrMojoRisin

    MrMojoRisin Championship Contender

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    I love this matchup. Probably the best final there could have been. It would have been a classic, and unfortunately this is a match we never got to see. At their peaks, both teams worked in different companies, and by the time the Steiners came to the WWF for a cup of coffee, Neidhart was gone and the Hitman was in singles.

    During that time we still got to at least see the Steiners against the Hart Brothers (Bret and Owen) once. I'd recommend anyone go back and watch that match. It ended in a double countout, and kayfabe wise, if you had to give the edge to one team or another, it would have been the Harts. They had the Steiners on the run until Bret and Rick went to the floor; Scott joined them with a top rope ax handle to Bret, and Owen joined in.

    Only reason I bring that up, is that if the Hart Brothers were booked a little stronger than the Steiners when they fought... the Hart Foundation was a far stronger team than the Hart Brothers, so that bodes well for them.

    One poster mentioned that the Hart Foundation was a short lived team whereas the Steiners weren't? wrestlingdata.com shows that the Hart Foundation fought 864 matches together between 1980 and 1997. The Steiner Brothers fought 879 matches together between 1989 and 2014. Pretty even right there, although in both cases, there's long stretches where they weren't really a team and just had the odd match together. Their times as a full time tag team?

    Hart Foundation - 1985 - 1991
    Steiner Brothers - 1989 - 1997

    Steiners were together a little longer than the Harts, but when any team spends more than half a decade together exclusively, it's hard to call them a 'short lived' team by any stretch.

    It's been mentioned in this thread that the Steiners matched the Harts in WWF titles, and then trumped them with a multitude of WCW and IWGP titles. This is true if you're only looking at title counts... and in that case, I'm sure you also believe that Randy Orton is a more important champion than Steve Austin or Randy Savage. I looked up their title reigns before posting, and was a little surprised by the results.

    WWF titles
    - 2 day reign
    - 86 day reign

    WCW titles
    - 199 day reign
    - 152 day reign
    - 63 day reign
    left for WWF and returned a few years later
    - 3 day reign
    - 2 day reign
    - 91 day reign
    - 13 day reign

    As for the Hart Foundation...
    - 274 day reign
    - 209 day reign

    I suppose this comes down to whether you prefer quantity over quality. The Steiners never had a World title reign like either of the Hart Foundation reigns, and 4 of their 9 title runs came during the hot shot booking Monday Night Wars, with one of their WWF title runs looking like it was either something fun they did for a house show audience, or a mistake at a house show that was corrected (the 2 day WWF reign was them beating Money Inc at a house show, losing at the next one, then regaining a few days later at another one).

    The Steiners were also IWGP champions and booked strong all over the world. This is true, but in fairness, this is also an opportunity the Harts never had. Working with the NWA meant that guys were traditionally allowed to also have a home company in Japan they'd tour with if they got that opportunity. Workers weren't afforded this luxury in the WWF due to their own touring schedule, as well as the fact that in the WWF they made a lot more money and didn't need those Japanese tours. Had the Harts left the WWF and worked Japan, you can bet that they too would have multiple IWGP titles to their resume (that was the company that had the transfer agreements with Stampede and Stu Hart). That they never had the chance due to a more favorable working situation than the Steiners shouldn't be held against them.

    Don't take any of this to mean I don't like the Steiners, because I really did. From when they debuted in the NWA to the end of their WWF run, they were probably my favorite tag team. When they came back to WCW in '96, I thought they were just a shell of what they used to be, and maybe that brings them down for me somewhat. But at one time, they were just amazing to watch.

    In the end though, I just like the Hart Foundation better. It seems to get held against them too much that Bret became what he did, but ignoring Bret as a singles... during 1985 to 1991, the Hart Foundation was simply an incredible team. Two great runs with the WWF tag team titles, when most teams didn't even get one. Once as heel and once as face to show their versatility. So many times their match was the highlight of whatever card they were working on.

    The Hart Foundation wins and takes the tournament.
     
    #5
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  6. JoeyJoeJoe

    JoeyJoeJoe Championship Contender

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    I think this is a great point that gets lost when people start counting up all the accolades and titles that any wrestler or tag team gets. If you were a WWF company man during the 80s to mid 90s, you were generally punished for that fact that you stayed there when it comes to discussions such as this. Meanwhile, The Hart Foundation survived getting split up and depushed between 1988 and 1989, brought back together, and regain their popularity and retake the tag titles in an era where Demolition's 3 title reigns was considered a high water mark. The quality of their opponents was certainly up to snuff: The British Bulldogs, Demolition, The Brain Busters, The Rockers, The Nasty Boys...all solid teams.

    All that said, I never looked at the Hart Foundation as being a dominant team, and that is definitely what the Steiners were. Even if they had stayed solely in JCP/WCW, the Steiners were as big a team in the 90s as the Road Warriors were in the 80s. They were transformative, and brought a hard hitting yet still highly technical style that most people weren't used to seeing in the ring.

    I'm still going with the Steiners, but this wouldn't be a gimme. The Harts would be a very tough match for them: They'd go for quick sudden reversals (Victory Rolls, small packages, quick rollups), they'd hit their Hart Attack, and Hart would slap on the Sharpshooter at some point to bring the Steiners to the point of breaking, but a sudden huge overhead belly to belly suplex from out of nowhere would derail the Harts, and then Scott would put away Bret Hart with the Frankensteiner while Rick ties up Anvil to win the tournament after 20 solid minutes of back and forth action.
     
    #6
  7. nightmare

    nightmare ...7, 8, Better stay up late...

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    That is kind of a skewed stat considering that Bret\Anvil were not a team until around 85 (before that it was a different stable under Jimmy Hart) & from 91-94 it was Owen\Anvil for period of that time & there was no Foundation after that until 97 when the family all joined as the heel stable. Not discounting what Bret\Anvil did during their time, but that needed to be said. After Rick\Scott split because of the NWO in early 98, the brothers probably teamed up less than 30 times from then until today. So that means that the largest chunk of those 879 matches stat you posted, came from Rick\Scott were a solid team. Bret\Anvil were damn good & I wont take any victory or reign away from them, but Bret\Anvil were not together as long as Rick\Scott- nor were they as dominant.


    As far as your points about title reigns, yes some of those WCW wins were short lived, but that is only because Bischoff & the NWO were taking away wins\titles constantly- not because the teams were actually being defeated. But you clearly have overlooked this following stat when comparing reigns:


    NWA US Tag Championship- August 90 till April 91 (225 days) title vacated because WCW started splitting from the NWA brand.

    WCW World Tag Titles- February 91 till July 91 (152 days) title vacated because Scott was injured.


    So during that time of 377 days, The Steiners were champions & never defeated for either set of belts.


    During that time as well, Rick\Scott won their IWGP Tag Titles March 91 and held those belts for 229 days until November 91 when Rick had to get Norton to fill in for his injured brother & they lost a match to Muta\Hase.



    That, my friends, is being a dominant tag team. You wanted quality over quantity? Well there you go. To me, that stretch of time right there trumps either of the reigns that Bret\Anvil had.



    The Steiner Brothers win this tournament.
     
    #7
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  8. MrMojoRisin

    MrMojoRisin Championship Contender

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    Actually 'skewed' would be the fact that you left out the second half of that statement where I addressed exactly what claim I 'skewed'.

    In the first half of the statement, I was merely providing data on how long both pairs teamed together in any fashion. In both cases, they had long stretches as an exclusive team, and long stretches as an occasional/one off team (Harts in their Stampede days and at the end in the Hart Foundation stable days; Steiners after 1997 when Scott graduated to a full time singles wrestler).

    In either case, your point was that the Hart Foundation was a 'short lived' team. I simply proved that they weren't. 6 years as a full time team is hardly short lived, in any context. The Steiners had 8 years as a full time team, but bear in mind between 1994 - 1996 they didn't really have a full time contract with any company, and were more journeymen (Japanese tours, short spots in WCW, ECW, indy's).

    Bottom line... there's no real advantage in this regard for either team.


    That would be the hotshot Monday Night Wars booking I mentioned, and hardly the Steiner's 'glory days'. As far as I'm concerned for this matchup, not a single one of those reigns is a positive, and the way they were booked during that time takes away from your 'dominant' argument. They were used by Bischoff as tools to put heat on the NWO, not as the dominant, best in the business team they were booked as a few years earlier.


    Your dates are a little off, but that's understandable because you're going by TV schedule dates. Depending on what site you're using as a reference, it gets confusing too.

    Feb 18th, the Steiners beat the Freebirds for the World titles (on this date Doom are the actual champions)
    Feb 20th, the Steiners vacate the US titles unofficially
    Feb 24th, The Freebirds beat Doom for the titles they had 'lost' to the Steiners 6 days earlier at Wrestle War 91
    March 9th, the Steiners defeating the Freebirds is shown on TV and the Steiners are then officially recognized as WCW Tag Team Champions
    April 6th, the Steiners 'officially' vacate the US titles on TV

    Confusing? Gotta love the TV taping days, especially in WCW.

    Yes they were dominant at this time, and were arguably the best team in the world at this point. They also happened to be pretty much it for WCW's tag division back in 1991. Going back through their matches at this time, so many were against a far past their prime Freebirds combo of Hayes and Garvin (so far past that they were both done after this run), and the infamous Master Blasters, or the combo of Arn Anderson and whomever happened to have their gear bag in the back that night.

    Point being... the Steiners were booked dominant, and they were an amazing team... but they didn't really have a great foil in the division at that time.

    Like I mentioned earlier... you can't really punish the Harts for something like this, because as WWF wrestlers, they weren't allowed to work Japan like an NWA/WCW wrestler could.

    Also in the interests of disclosure, during that entire period... they only defended the IWGP titles once.


    Does it though?

    The Harts had longer runs as World Tag Team Champions than the Steiners did. Don't forget, the US Tag titles were secondary tag team titles. The matches were good, and they usually weren't booked as being that much less important than the World titles, but they were still secondary... and those titles meant a lot more a few years earlier when JCP had a stronger tag division. Go back to the competition they had at the time I posted earlier.

    In the Hart's first run as champs. They were defending against the Rougeaus, Killer Bee's, Bulldogs in an amazing series of cage matches. Honestly just a higher quality of competition than the Steiners had during that run you keep referring to. In the second, you can throw in Demolition, the Rockers, Powers of Pain... again higher quality of competition. And again, given a longer run than the Steiners ever got with the main titles.


    Probably. Definitely is looking that way. But it's not as cut and dry as some are making it out to be, and when held up to the microscope, the Harts actually do compare better than a lot would probably realize.

    I so wish the Steiners would have jumped in the late 80's like so many of the JCP boys did and we could have actually seen this match. It easily could have been the best work either team ever did.
     
    #8
  9. obamartins

    obamartins Pre-Show Stalwart

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    Finals in my opinion should have been: Steiner Brothers vs. Road Warriors or Steiner Brothers vs. British Bulldogs.

    Dave Meltzers subjective match ratings for Steiner Brothers (above 3 stars):

    ****1/2 - Steiner Brothers vs. Hiroshi Hase & Kensuke Sasaki (NJPW/WCW 21.03.1991)
    ****1/2 - Steiner Brothers vs. Lex Luger & Sting (WCW 19.05.1991)
    ****1/2 - Steiner Brothers vs. Hiroshi Hase & Keiji Muto (NJPW 08.07.1994)
    ****1/4 - Steiner Brothers vs. Great Muta & Sting (NJPW/WCW 04.01.1992)
    ****1/4 - Steiner Brothers vs. Hiroshi Hase & Keiji Muto (NJPW 04.01.1994)
    ****1/4 - Steiner Brothers vs. Jushin Liger & Power Warrior (NJPW 17.02.1994)
    ****1/4 - Steiner Brothers vs. Hiroshi Hase & Keiji Muto (NJPW 04.01.1995)
    **** - Steiner Brothers vs. Hiroshi Hase & Masa Chono (WCW 14.06.1991)
    **** - Steiner Brothers vs. Steve Williams & Terry Gordy (WCW 16.06.1992)
    **** - Steiner Brothers vs. Tatsumi Fujinami & Takayuki Iizuka (NJPW 10.08.1992)
    **** - Steiner Brothers vs. Keiji Muto & Kensuke Sasaki (NJPW 11.08.1992)
    **** - Steiner Brothers vs. Road Warrior Hawk & Power Warrior (WCW 04.01.1993)
    **** - Steiner Brothers vs. Chris Benoit & Jushin Liger (NJPW 04.04.1994)
    **** - Steiner Brothers vs. Hiroshi Hase & Kensuke Sasaki (NJPW/WCW 29.04.1995)
    ***3/4 - Steiner Brothers vs. Butch Reed & Ron Simmons (WCW 13.06.1990)
    ***3/4 - Steiner Brothers vs. Brian Knobbs & Jerry Sags (WCW 27.10.1990)
    ***3/4 - Steiner Brothers vs. Tatsumi Fujinami & Takayuki Iizuka (WCW - 17.05.1992)
    ***3/4 - Steiner Brothers & Scott Norton vs. Road Warriors & Power Warrior (NJPW - 26.04.1996)
    ***1/2 - Steiner Brothers vs. Jimmy Garvin & Michael Hayes (WCW 12.09.1989)
    ***1/2 - Steiner Brothers vs. Dan Spivey & Sid Vicious (WCW 15.11.1989)
    ***1/2 - Steiner Brothers vs. Jimmy Del Ray & Tom Pritchard (WWF 30.08.1993)
    ***1/2 - Steiner Brothers vs. Pierre Ouellette & Jacques Rougeau (WWF 13.09.1993)
    ***1/2 - Steiner Brothers vs. Hiroyoshi Tenzan & Masahiro Chono (NJPW 15.07.1995)
    ***1/4 - Steiner Brothers vs. Road Warriors (WCW 11.03.1996)
    ***1/4 - Steiner Brothers vs. Great Muta & Masahiro Chono (WCW 13.07.1997)

    Dave Meltzer subjective match ratings for Hart Foundation (above 3 stars):

    ***3/4 - Hart Foundation vs. Marty Jannetty & Shawn Michaels (WWF 25.11.1989)
    ***3/4 - Hart Foundation vs. Marty Jannetty & Shawn Michaels (WWF 23.04.1990)
    ***3/4 - Hart Foundation vs. Davey Boy Smith & The Dynamite Kid (WWF 25.07.1987)
    ***1/2 - Hart Foundation vs. Crush & Smash (WWF 27.08.1990)
    ***1/2 - Hart Foundation vs. Brian Knobbs & Jerry Sags (WWF 24.03.1991)

    I didn't list all Steiner Brothers matches rated above 3 stars by Dave Meltzer.
    I couldn't find any more Hart Foundation matches rated above 3 stars by Dave Meltzer.

    Winners: Steiner Brothers

    Steiner Brothers vs. Hiroshi Hase & Kensuke Sasaki (NJPW 31.05.1991)

    [YOUTUBE]watch?v=zdeb7_XGXKQ[/YOUTUBE]


    Steiner Brothers vs. Kensuke Sasaki & Hiroshi Tanahashi (NJPW 02.05.2002)

    [YOUTUBE]watch?v=E-CZbLvyoU8[/YOUTUBE]
     
    #9
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  10. nightmare

    nightmare ...7, 8, Better stay up late...

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    Well thats all she wrote. You can say that statement about The Steiners, but not The Hart Foundation. What is better? Being the biggest fish in a stock pond or the biggest fish in the ocean? Vince has always pushed his company as an island unto itself & it works for what he aims to accomplish. Problem is that the buck does not stop there & other things happen outside of his empire. During their top runs in WWF, there were a few teams outside Vince's grasp that were better than Anvil\Bret. They were the top team in WWF, but not the world. During Rick\Scott's major run, they were the top team & technically never lost 2 of their 3 belts held that time.



    Again, Bret\Anvil deserve praise for what they did, but people put more stock in to their run because of what Bret accomplished later. This is when Rick\Scott were in their prime. That is a dangerous thing for Anvil & pre-Hitman Hart to contend with. It would be an awesome battle, but they just wouldn't beat the Steiner Brothers in this match.
     
    #10
  11. Bythedockofthebay

    Bythedockofthebay Getting Noticed By Management

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    If you voted for the hart foundation here, (or in previous rounds for that matter) you have to be a huge fan of them. They weren't close to Tully and Arn, Road Warriors, Steiner Brothers, or even Demolition. They are the second most overrated team even imo. Right behind the British Bulldogs. So this one is easy to call for me, Steiner's in a mauling, that isn't even close. Frankensteiner game over.
     
    #11
  12. justtxyank

    justtxyank Championship Contender

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    Put me in the camp that sees this as a trucking. Hart Foundation were a good team no doubt, but they were not the Steiner Brothers.

    Pretty disappointing finals honestly. Steiners would have been much better matching up with Miracle Violence Connection, The Road Warriors, heck, even the original Minnesota Wrecking Crew or Midnight Express.

    Hart Foundation were a dominant mid card team. Steiners were a main event team. There is a big difference.
     
    #12
  13. JoeyJoeJoe

    JoeyJoeJoe Championship Contender

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    The Harts were a mid card team only because of where they were at. There were NO main event teams in the WWF, and that was by design. Consequentially, the Steiners and the Road Warriors were never a main event team in the WWF either, and the Midnights, had they made it to the WWF, wouldn't have been either.

    I'm just saying that I think it would've been very likely that the Hart Foundation would've been main eventers in the NWA. If a team like the Rock N' Roll Express were main eventers, the Harts definitely would've been.
     
    #13
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  14. MrMojoRisin

    MrMojoRisin Championship Contender

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    I find it interesting how you keep only picking out a small bit of what I say, and try to make your argument around that... while ignoring everything else. Whatever though.

    Were the Hart Foundation ever considered the 'best in the world' at any point? Not really. In fairness though, when the Hart Foundation were together it was probably the golden age of tag team wrestling, whereas the Steiners only got together at the tail end of that time.

    During 1989 and 1990, when both teams were competing together at the same time (in different companies unfortunately)... I wouldn't say that the Steiners were the best in the world either. You'd have to give that honor to either the Road Warriors or Demolition, and truthfully, that should have been your finals here. But of course too many people had to vote against the Road Warriors to be contrary, and due to Bill Eadie's disputes with Vince McMahon, people who weren't fans back then haven't been educated on exactly how great Demolition was. So we don't get that matchup.

    By the time the Steiners were the best in the World, tag team wrestling had changed pretty quickly, and a lot of the great teams had split and been replaced with makeshift duos. The formula had gone from having a strong tag division to mining tag teams for new singles stars. Blame that on the WWF, and the fact that at this point in the business, companies like WCW were beginning to be more concerned with following the WWF model than creating their own. Just as another poster here said, the WWF didn't use tag teams as the 'main event' unlike JCP, who did promote their teams at the top of the card. Once Turner bought JCP and brought in guys like Jim Herd to run it, that began to change, tag teams in WCW weren't emphasised like before, and thus the quality of them dropped drastically.

    So saying that they were the best in the world after 1991 doesn't hold as much weight unfortunately. There just weren't enough good teams left at their peak to make a case for.


    Heh, you loved that US to World booking didn't you? It would have been nice if you'd addressed the points I made about that earlier, then just going back to it though. Who, realistically would you have had the Steiners drop the US titles to at that point? I can't think of one team you could have done it with without making the Steiners look weak, and they just couldn't afford to do that at that time. I think the bigger question would be why had the Steiners been de-pushed slightly down to the US titles for this to even be a point? They were already established, had previously been World champs, and were extremely over. The only thing I can think of is they were put down to the US tag level specifically because WCW wanted to run the unbeatable dual champ angle (and may have even worked a deal with NJPW to get them the IWGP belts at this point to further the angle, since they were promoting that fact on TV). That's great booking btw, but it's also the type of booking that the WWF never did for tag teams. Keep in mind a great point brought up by another poster. Tag teams were all booked as mid card acts in the WWF. This included the Steiner Brothers when they went to the WWF. At no point was the best tag team in the world ever booked stronger than the Hart Foundation, or any other tag team had been booked in years past. In fact, I'd say that there were quite a few tag teams in the WWF's past such as the Hart Foundation that got booked better than the Steiners.

    It makes you wonder how those WWF tag teams would have faired in JCP? I've got a feeling that in more than a few cases... it would have been extremely well.

    I'm sure there are people who do put more stock into what the Harts did because of what Bret went on to do in singles. I'm sure there's also many who take away from what the Harts did because of that too. Then there's those of us who actually grew up watching both of these teams and don't have to rely on Youtube for our knowledge of wrestling history. Whenever I watched a show with the Hart Foundation on it, their match was almost always the best one of the night. That says a lot right there. Had neither man ever wrestled another match after the team broke up, they would still be remembered as one of the best ever.

    From all appearances, the Hart Foundation won't win this, and that's fine. The Steiners were an amazing team in their own right, and they are deserving winners. But just from reading comments throughout this tournament, even being in the finals, I don't think the Harts get the respect that they deserve, and that's just wrong.
     
    #14
  15. nightmare

    nightmare ...7, 8, Better stay up late...

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    Why would I bother breaking down every bit of what you say? It's clear that you have a preference & that is fine, but I wont waste my time trying to overcome your fapping of things pink & black related. The main selling points have been shown & not much else needs to be said. Bret\Anvil may have been the best WWF had to offer during that time (& honestly even that is disputed due to who else was around), but they were a notch below The Steiners in the grand scheme of things.


    This isnt a 'Who did good in WWF & may have been good elsewhere tournament'. All things must be taken in to account & a solid team with 2 WWF titles just does not cut the mustard against a team who traveled the world, kicking ass & taking gold. At any given point a promoter can decide to make a team or push an established team to gold. Using the argument that 'Well they held the belts because there was no-one good" is silly because all it shows is that clearly The Steiners were the best of that time & promoters knew it. If they were not as good as they were, people would have no problem buying the fact that another team could beat them, even an older team snagging the gold from the younger guys. Fact is, that they were that good & have the cred\gold to back it up.


    Bret\Anvil were at the top in WWF, but despite what Vince wants us to think- the wrestling world is much bigger than his Connecticut based empire. The Hart Foundation is outmatched here. That includes in the ring & with their accomplishments.
     
    #15
  16. MrMojoRisin

    MrMojoRisin Championship Contender

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    Ok then. The only thing negative I say to you is how you're cherry picking stuff I say to make your argument, and that's what you respond with? Well if that's how you want it...

    Why? Because WCW had the Steiners go from the US titles to the World titles without dropping the titles first? Because they didn't really have any other viable options at the time (unless they wanted to go with the Master Blasters?)

    There is a saying that a champion is only as good as his challengers. The Steiners were a great tag team. I've never disputed that. But during their peak period (the one you've been fapping over), their competition was dogshit. The entire time the Hart Foundation was together though, including during the year and a half they spent as champions... the WWF always had a strong tag team division. Please, feel free to point out where they didn't.

    Of course the promoters went with the Steiners. Who else would they have gone with? Honestly, it would have meant more if there were other teams worthy and capable of holding down that top spot.

    The funny thing when you say this... is how in the hell are you the one actually taking everything into account?

    The Harts didn't 'travel the world, kicked ass and took gold' because the company they worked for wouldn't allow it. You don't take that into account.

    The Steiners at their absolute peak which you're basing your argument on, benefited from the fact that their promoters didn't have anyone else to turn to. The Hart's got chosen twice to carry the gold despite the fact that their promoters had many viable options to go with instead. You don't take that into account.

    Of course they went with the Steiners because they were the best they had at that time. Where the hell have I disputed that? My point, which is clearly going over your head, is that it wasn't like they had a list of qualified teams and chose the Steiners from it. When the Steiners went from the US to World titles, they didn't have anyone else. If they didn't have the Steiners at that time, their champions could have easily been Arn Anderson and the Angel of Death (actually one of the combos that the Steiners defended against).

    Yeah I see where all this is coming from. Typical.
     
    #16
  17. nightmare

    nightmare ...7, 8, Better stay up late...

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    Well lets just go ahead and cherry pick an important brick from your word fort.






    Im sorry, but are you ******ed? Lack of quality teams? Competition? Did all of the teams that were around at that time not meet your standards or did they all just retire while the Steiners were around? Lets just go ahead and list some of these teams from 89-94 that were around & or beaten by The Steiners that you seem to want people to believe are 'dogshit competition'...


    Doom, Freebirds, Road Warriors, Varsity Club, Enforcers, 4 Horsemen, Luger\Windham, Sting\Luger, Williams\Gordy, Hase\Sasaki, Midnight Express, Rock 'n' Roll Express, Nasty Boys, Saito\Muta, Money Inc., Headshrinkers


    Those are some great teams & surely considered top caliber competition. You have acted like Rick\Scott spent their entire career beating jobbers. The Steiners have beaten some of the best tag teams in each promotion they were in. Sure Bret\Anvil beat some great teams as well, but when comparing resumes, The Steiners just simply have the better career. Blame it on WWF's contract restrictions, wishful thinking or what have you. If Bret\Anvil traveled around, they may just have beaten more teams- but we will never know. What we do know is that Rick\Scott did. They are the better team who accomplished more during their time together & deserve to win this tournament over The Hart Foundation.
     
    #17
  18. FitFinlay4Life

    FitFinlay4Life What's the craic?

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    I'm a big fan of wrestlingdata.com myself and I have to turn this round for something you've declined to add...

    Hart Foundation
    w: 447 (57.09%)
    d: 66 (8.43%)
    l: 270 (34.48%)

    Steiner Brothers
    w: 746 (85.65%)
    d: 48 (5.51%)
    l: 77 (8.84%)

    So, to use this site for arguments sake - Rick and Scott win.

    Sorry, but this does not hold up - please tell me how this was a weak period? Doom, R'n'R Express, Midnight Express, Horsemen, Fabulous Freebirds, Samoan Swat Team and Sting & Luger were all in effect...
     
    #18
    Hollywood Naitch and nightmare like this.
  19. justtxyank

    justtxyank Championship Contender

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    Well, the Freebirds were junk by the time The Steiners started tagging together and the RnR Express was basically done, however, the rest of your list is good.

    List of some teams The Steiners did battle with:
    Amazing French Canadians (Quebecers)
    Outsiders
    Harlem Heat (for years!)
    Dick Slater / Bunkhouse Buck (Good team, underrated)
    Miracle Violence Connection
    Sting/Luger
    Roadwarriors
    Nasty Boys (prime and late career)
    Masahiro Chono / Great Muta
    Chono/Tenzan
    High Voltage
    Arn Anderson / Bobby Eaton
    Arn Anderson / Larry Zbyzsko
    Doom
    Headshrinkers
    Midnight Express (still relevant version)
    Money Inc
    Heavenly Bodies
    Public Enemy (before they were turned into jobbers)
    Blue Bloods (with Eaton)
    Blue Bloods (with Dave Taylor)
    Faces of Fear

    None of that is to say the Hart Foundation didn't wrestle good teams, but the idea that the Steiners faced trash is a joke. Sure, the WWF hated tag teams and treated them as midcarders or worse, but everywhere else the Steiners worked treated tag team wrestling with respect. And in those companies that cared about tag team wrestling, The Steiners were always on top.
     
    #19
    nightmare likes this.
  20. obamartins

    obamartins Pre-Show Stalwart

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    Speaking of tag teams Steiner Brothers faced...

    Steiner Brothers vs. Bam Bam Bigelow & Big Van Vader (WCW Tag Team Champions vs. IWGP Tag Team Champions)

    [YOUTUBE]watch?v=zWGz6-s1_vg[/YOUTUBE]
     
    #20
  21. Boring

    Boring Occasional Pre-Show

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    The Hart Foundation because talking about other promotions you might as well be comparing an ROH tag team too the Legion of Doom.

    Bret had great psychology and Scott Steiner is a psych patient. Rick and Anvil are basically the same person in my mind, so I gotta take Bret over Scott and go for The Hart Foundation. Bret was a tag team pioneer.
     
    #21
  22. FitFinlay4Life

    FitFinlay4Life What's the craic?

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    We're talking about the NWA / WCW Tag Team Division - one regarded as being well on a par with the WWF's of the time (if not a step above). Vince envied them sufficiently to create his own version of the Road Warriors AND brought in the tribute Midnight Rockers AND also raided the ones with the WWF look; like the LOD, Brainbusters, Samoan Swat Team... and the Steiner Brothers! The Steiners were that highly regarded by VKM, he neither rebranded them or buried them.

    Jim Neidhart and Rick Steiner were both portrayed as powerhouses but Rick's technical prowess from his amateur days was always played up as well. As to your assertions about Bret and Scotty - we are not talking about who they would go onto be, we're talking about their tag team versions and the simple fact is that the Steiners who appeared in the three top promotions of their time and faced every major contemporary team that they feasibly could lost less than 9 of every 100 matches... the Hart Foundation lost 1 in 3 despite only facing Stampede and WWF opponents.
     
    #22
  23. JoeyJoeJoe

    JoeyJoeJoe Championship Contender

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    I figured this was as good a place as any to say this: I know Scott Steiner got the lion's share of the love from fans because of his abilities, and rightly so, but I just want to say:

    The Dogfaced Gremlin fucking rocked!

    Rick had so much personality, and added so much to that team. The Steinerlines, the off the top rope bulldog, and his antics helped ground the team in so many ways. IMO, Rick Steiner doesn't get enough credit for what he brought to that team.

    Just sayin...
     
    #23
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  24. MrMojoRisin

    MrMojoRisin Championship Contender

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    I know this is done, but once I saw the obvious anti-WWF bias coming out of Nightmare, combined with him having a dishonest debate by cherry picking comments of mine and taking them out of context, I didn't care to bother with it anymore.

    Let me just set one thing straight though, because it seems a few of you fell for his act.

    When I was talking about the Steiners competition being 'dogshit', I was referring specifically to the period of time that he was using as the basis of his argument for them to win. The period of time where they went undefeated for with the US, then World, then IWGP titles (August 1990 to roughly September 1991).

    During that period, WCW did not have a good tag division. People who worked in the company at that time have even stated as much. Most of the teams listed after I posted that the Steiners beat over the years... did not compete in WCW during this period. Many of their tag matches over this period... were against makeshift teams that most people would be surprised to hear actually teamed (like Arn Anderson and the One Man Gang for example). The time period here where WCW did have some better teams (like Doom), was when the Steiners were the secondary tag team champions of the company.

    That run was being used to hold up the invincibility of the Steiner's... and while I loved them as a team (honestly one of my favorites of all time), it's simply not the period I would have used to argue their case, because it doesn't hold up as well as others. Honestly, I would have gone with their first title run a year earlier, because the competition in WCW was a lot better at that time. Or I at least would have done what justyank did and focused on the teams they beat over the years, and not a period where they were unbeatable because it would have looked unbelievable for their company to have them get beat.

    It would have been nice to at least have an honest debate about it.

    I'm glad the Steiners won though. I may like the Harts better, but the Steiners are definitely deserving.
     
    #24
  25. nightmare

    nightmare ...7, 8, Better stay up late...

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    You can come in here & whine after the fact all you want. Sour grapes, little man... sour grapes.


    Clearly you have no clue what you are talking about when you call my stance 'anti-WWE bias' just because I was on the other side of this discussion. WWF\E has been my favorite promotion out of them all. Understanding & appreciating what happens outside of Vince's empire hardly makes me biased. The Hart Foundation were good in one promotion, but never considered the best in the world- you said so yourself. Beating a handful of good teams in one promotion is not as impressive as beating good teams from all over wrestling's landscape. Good in one place is not as important as great everywhere. Spin it how you want & defend it with contract status, but it is what it is. A team who is good at beating division rivals in the NFL may be great, but if they never make it to the playoffs it dont mean shit when comparing legacy against teams who win the conference. Using the defense of 'well they never got to play there so it dont count' is a silly ass argument.


    As far as your comment about a dishonest debate? Hilarious. At no point did I lie or cheat in arguing my stance. You are just irritated that I refused to engage\respond to every little brick in your pink & black word fort. I did not need to deconstruct every sentence that you wrote in order to point out that Rick\Scott were a better team overall than Bret\Anvil. Clearly others agreed with that fact. I chose to point out that The Steiners were an overall better team with a better career, had a big run with 3 titles at once & were more than capable in taking down your team in the ring. You chose to further the misconception that The Hart Foundation were a better team than they actually were. There was no need for me to multi-quote you or construct a rival wall of text in order to show who should win the matchup.


    Move on & let it go.
     
    #25

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