Kevin Owens could have already been huge/credible enough to face Brock Lesnar.

Discussion in 'The Wrestling Archives' started by RomanfreakinReigns, Jan 23, 2016.

  1. RomanfreakinReigns

    RomanfreakinReigns Championship Contender

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    By King of the Ring 2002, it was patent that the WWE/Vince had chosen Brock as their next top guy, considering how he was booked in the first four months since his advent and considering the departure of The Rock and Austin, followed by his KOTR victory. He was the next big thing- the first of his kind the wrestling world had ever seen- ferocious, agile, proportionate, muscular, substantial, and with an athletic/amateur background shared and rivalled by none in the wrestling world besides Kurt Angle.

    All they needed was to lend him a little legitimacy and credibility(insofar as legitimacy and credibility are capable of existing in FAKE wrestling), and that he was indeed the next big thing and their next guy. Hulk Hogan was thus used. The Rock lost cleanly at Summerslam, and it was official, Brock Lesnar was the real deal. This was followed by further legitimization when he defeated The Undertaker inside Hell In A Cell, cleanly and decisively.

    That's how you create stars. Imagine instead, hypothetically, that there was only one world title and HHH doesn't want to let go of the championship and that Brock spent 2002 fighting Chris Benoit and Eddie Guerrero for the US championship, before winning the Rumble in 2003 or later.

    That is exactly how the WWE screw up performers today. Obviously, nobody really, practicably can claim the traits, size, experience, or sheer potential of a Brock Lesnar. It's never really going to happen. IMO, the closest thing we got is KO, whom I didn't even know of, besides having read Mark Madden's eulogy as to how talented he was, but fat, and thus how he would suck in the WWE(this was 2 years ago, when Steen worked for ROH). And even KO has just this one major defect(which isn't even a defect in my eyes)- that he's chubby, fat, or basically NON-MUSCULAR. That's it. But apart from that, I see sheer talent and even compensation for not being as muscular as Brock in his having such a fabulous personality/charisma/microphone talent.

    Now, the sole point I want to make in this thread is how he could've been the next big thing by now, if and only if this had happened:-

    Legitimization by way of KO winning the feud/US championship at Battleground(a match he lost to Cena and thus making it Cena 2- Owens 1), defeating Randy Orton or some other established star at Summerslam, as well as being the gladiator who destroyed dozens and dozens of small/midcard wrestlers. Had this happened, I can totally vision him winning the Royal Rumble and/or WWE WHC, and thus officially becoming the "next big thing". Hell, they can push Roman fucking Reigns all they want, but Roman Reigns doesn't have "it". Roman Reigns vs Brock Lesnar sucked back then, and it will suck if it happens again. In fact, since the defeat of John Cena, KO was the only next best thing who could've "been the one" to dethrone Lesnar.

    We all know how KO is chasing the IC title now. I have no problem with KO being a defending-reigning IC/US champion or challenger. I just think the WWE has failed to utilize this opportunity as a result of which they WILL suffer come Wrestlemania 32, one way or another. Kevin Owens and Brock Lesnar for the WWE WHC was THE MATCH, period. Of course, it may or may not happen now, in 2020 or something.

    It has been numerously referred as the Era of Midcard guys/50-50 booking. But when John Cena has to be the one who wins all the final matches, or 2-3 matches out of 4 instead of Rusev or KO, there are no legitimate, credible, undisputed stars. None besides Brock Lesnar anyway. And they should appropriately call it 75-25 booking in Cena's case.

    I damn near made up my mind yesterday that I would quit the WWE/Wrestling, since it seems pointless to me. I like Cesaro. Cesaro won the Battle Royal at WM 30 and he did nothing remotely prominent afterwards. Rusev lost his first major feud to John Cena. And now instead of a fearsome warrior and a champion, we have a big scary-looking intimidatingly strong guy being mocked by Chris Jericho the goofball. I liked Damien Sandow. Damien Sandow doesn't even exist anymore. I like Kevin Owens and I'm damn sure they'll take another few years to allow him to fulfill his potential and be champion, like CM Punk did/was. And they already ruined any chance at his legitimization and further elevation when he lost the feud to John Cena anyway.

    All we have is a bunch of mid-carders and "potential" stars in Bray Wyatt, Rusev, and the most brilliant of them all- Kevin Steen. And don't even get me started on Bray Wyatt and his tragic trajectory since debuting 2 years ago! But hey, Wrestlemania sells like Mcdonalds Hamburgers. They can always rely on The Rock, Sting, The Undertaker, so who needs legitimate stars. And hell, Roman Reigns is still around.
     
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  2. J.J.

    J.J. Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    The guy hasn't been on the roster a full year yet. He beat John Cena, someone who is the front runner of WWE for 10 years now, in arguably the best match of the year. Then he had an IC title run and is currently feuding with the hottest babyface on the roster, there's no missed opportunity. I don't get your gripe.

    WWE did a good job getting Seth Rollins over as the top heel and was in the midst of building up Reigns - you wanted them to shove their homegrown talent aside for KO? While I believe Owens is a better worker, he doesn't have that appeal like Reigns does and Reigns screams superstar when lined up next to Owens, he has that look WWE adores.

    I don't understand why Cesaro is being held down other than Vince believing he's boring. I think he would be the one feuding Ambrose or Del Rio had he not got hurt, which potentially halted Kalisto's push. Everything happens for a reason - whose to say Owens would be in any title picture had it not been for these injuries?

    I think Owens is on the right pace.
     
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  3. RomanfreakinReigns

    RomanfreakinReigns Championship Contender

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    I respectfully disagree here, and I'll tell you where I'm coming from and I sure would like you to see the complete picture. I never said KO is being buried, or isn't on the right pace or anything else.

    Let's begin with the John Cena part. He won the first match alright. As I pointed out, How does winning the first match against an established star(usually John Cena) and losing the next 2 matches in KO's case, and 3 in Rusev's case(WM, Extreme Rules, Payback), benefit the said wrestler? THREE FUCKING LOSSES. KO won the first match, lost the second one which was supposedly Cena's "redemption". But Cena didn't need the third win, whether the US title was involved or not. But since the US title was involved, and since the WWE's job is to make credible opponents for their top guy(Brock Lesnar), why make all their "potential" future stars lose feuds to Cena- Bray Wyatt, Rusev, and KO ? See the problem? 75-25 booking, Era of midcarders and no stars? Cena didn't need the win against Owens for the 3rd time because KO is the future, Cena is the past. John Cena fans and all the kids who buy his Tshirts don't need a reason to keep buying those Tshirts or merchandise. Or even a reason to have faith in him. He's the guy who was always there, who is always there and will be there. He lost to Lesnar and ever since then, he's done. The WWE's job is to groom the next big thing, which IMO, was KO.

    And miraculously, KO's career has hardly suffered after losing the feud, he became IC champ and is doing the best work on the roster IMO, for months now, against Ambrose. Maybe it's not so miraculous considering the sheer talent and charisma he possesses. But what about Rusev and Bray Wyatt?? 75-25 booking. No one benefits.

    As for the "only been around for a year" argument, I clearly prefaced the thread with a description of Brock Lesnar's early career, becoming WWE champ within what- 5 months? of debuting on the main roster. In Kevin Owens case, at least he had an extensive experience of like 8 years? before debuting on NXT. And clearly, he could've been groomed to be the next "next big thing", and IMO, him not having Brock's physique was/is irrelevant. What would you rather have, a big star who could potentially beat Brock at WM 32 in Kevin Owens, or a guy floundering in the mid-card with Dean Ambrose of all people? Seriously.

    I give you this. I omitted the fact that I am seeing things in retrospect whereas the WWE was in "We have Seth Rollins and Roman Reigns, our future is bright" mode. But my argument of 3 potential "stars" of which I chose Kevin Steen as a modern-day equivalent of Brock Lesnar from 2002, being nowhere close to being credible/legitimate challengers against Brock Lesnar on account of losing 2 or 3 subsequent matches with John Cena still holds. Aren't Rusev and Bray Wyatt's careers a testimony to that?

    I am also somewhat loath to agree with the view that Reigns has wider appeal. The greatest fact which hinders most talented wrestlers(Punk, Bryan, Kevin Owens, Chris Hero, Cesaro) when you put them next to Roman Reigns is that they don't look like Roman Reigns, and hence, they don't have "the look". But does it mean they have nothing else to offer? Contrarily, Roman Reigns to me seems to have little character/personality beyond his intensity/good looks. Daniel Bryan was amazing as a jerk boyfriend in 2012, notwithstanding the fact that he's the greatest wrestler ever after Kurt Angle and Bret Hart. Punk...I could go on and on. Get the picture? So yeah, I get it why Reigns was pushed. So contrarily, albeit a bit paradoxically, KO is more appealing if you overlook the fact that he has personality but not a muscular physique/chiseled face.
     
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  4. Navi

    Navi With the safety off!!

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    When Owens debuted on the roster my feeling is that he came in at kind of a bad time. The heel of the moment was Rollins, and they were pushing Reigns as the new face of the company. There was no room to strap a rocket on Owens and let him go. Besides they had already seen what happened the year before when they tried to do the same thing with Reigns and how that rocket crashed and burned.

    Owens will get there, maybe not on your timetable, but he will get there. And I'm really tired of all this talk about his body type not being the norm. For a guy shaped the way he is, he can go in the ring and like Luke Harper, who acts like a cruiserweight half the time, Owens can do things that you wouldn't think possible.

    No he isn't cut like Cena, Reigns, Rollins and Lesnar, but he's been able to work around it, and does quite well in the ring. His mic work is superb and he's one of the best in the WWE right now. Timing is his problem and as soon as the focus comes off Reigns hopefully they will start thinking about the rest of the roster. Mind you if Daniel Bryan comes back before Mania, all bets are off, everyone will be fighting for second place behind him.
     
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  5. OYDK

    OYDK King Of The Ring

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    I'm kind of in agreement with OP on this one, in the sense that Owens had the potential to take over the WWE just as quickly as Brock Lesnar did upon his debut. He had the booking in NXT for WWE to bring him up and turn him into a legitimate superstar. He had come in, destroyed all the top talents in NXT, captured the NXT title after 2 months by literally forcing the ref to stop the match, and than beat John Cena in his debut. To be honest, even at that time it was obvious that Kevin Owens gets it. I don't think he necessarily needed any experience or "progressing" when he came up. He proved that he was ready to be a serious player right away, but as Dark Lady said, he came up in the middle of Rollins' push as the top heel of the company... bad timing.

    HAD WWE given Owens the win over Cena in the US title rubber match, he could very well have continued his momentum through others like maybe Orton and Jericho. For that to have happened though, there needed to be almost a unanimous agreement on pushing Owens as your next guy, and don't be fooled, Owens was never meant to be "the man" or even the co-man in WWE. Brock Lesnar was a unique situation and he was only pushed as hard as he was because WWE needed somebody to replace The Rock very quickly, and because he was a Mcmahon's wet dream. D1 National Wrestling Champion, 265 pounds of pure muscle, and young as hell at the time. Don't expect anybody to get pushed like Brock Lesnar again.

    But with that being said, Owens is in a good spot right now. He's done more than most rookies on the main roster, and it's clear that he's going to be a big player in the near future. Sure he could have been given the rocket ship instantly, but I think he'll get where he's supposed to be eventually anyway.
     
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  6. Vanilla Midget

    Vanilla Midget Registered Suplex Offender

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    How is he not the next big thing by now? Because he hasn't entered the world title picture? I'll agree there have been some strange choices with him lately, (losing to Neville for example), but losing the Cena feud wasn't one of them.

    Do rockets to the top make stars? It worked for Brock, but he's a once in a lifetime athlete. Brock started at the top and wound up burning out within two years and walking away. Sheamus was similarly pushed incredibly hard to the top, and has been dogged by criticisms of never getting over.

    I'll admit Owens has paid his dues outside of WWE, but WWE caters to casual fans who have missed that indie career. Aren't careers better for both the talent and the fans better if the wrestler is made to pay their dues?

    Edge and Shawn Michaels both had very long careers. Rock and Austin had comparably shorter careers, but were far bigger stars. One leaving due to his fame and marketability, the other leaving due to injury and booking.

    Is Owens not ready to face Lesnar? He's been proven capable of beating John Cena, a feat Rollins has never preformed clean.

    Lesnar needs an opponent. The top stars in WWE right now that aren't on the injured reserve list are: Lesnar, Undertaker, Triple H, Reigns, Wyatt, and Owens. Three are stars of the past, three are stars of the future. These six will face some combination of each other at the big PPV.

    You have to immediately remove the been there done that match ups from this equation. Reigns seems destined to meet Triple H (most likely for the title), and Undertaker has faced everyone involved except Owens and Reigns.

    I don't see WWE shoehorning in an Undertaker heel turn, so that means Owens locks up with either Lesnar or Owens. Wyatt faced Undertaker twice (losing both times) in 2015, leaving the freshest match ups to be Lesnar vs Wyatt, and Owens vs Undertaker.

    This is where you build your new stars. Regardless of who is or isn't ready, Lesnar and Undertaker need to lay down. The injuries have shown a weakened roster, and the booking over the last decade has lead to a situation where new stars are lacking.

    If Owens isn't ready to be the next big thing, let him become that by going over Lesnar or Undertaker.
     
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  7. RomanfreakinReigns

    RomanfreakinReigns Championship Contender

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    He is quite fantastic right now, probably the best overall/all-round wrestler on the roster besides Seth Rollins(who is absent). But he isn't the "next big thing" in that even though he is getting an opportunity to showcase himself in one of the most personal and brilliant feuds for the IC title ever, he clearly should/could be doing something bigger, especially during an injury-depleted roster.

    Also, I disagree with you implying that it's okay he lost the feud with Cena. In fact, KO should've precisely been the one who WON the US title and/or the last match/feud with Cena, since Rusev didn't, and Bray Wyatt didn't either. That way, KO could've been the next "big thing" who not only aggressively kicks ass and makes declarations like "I'm going to take your US title" but also backs them up, unlike Bray Wyatt who is like a fucking clown who claims to do this and that and ends up losing all his matches, and unlike Rusev as well. Tell me how is that wrong? Also, I sort of used a Brock Lesnar analogy in that, if Lesnar had been booked similarly in 2002, would there really be any legitimacy to his being "the next big thing" ? We would have had HHH as the world champ and Brock floundering around fighting in tag team matches for a year or so..instead. So yes, IMO, KO could've been booked better and him winning the 3rd match/feud was necessary for that, especially when John Cena doesn't need to win every fucking feud involving a rising new superstar in 2015, and yet he did.

    It also depends on how talented you are. KO, whose NXT stint, debut and subsequent matches with Cena, and everything else I missed(I was sort of disconnected from the WWE until Sep/Oct '15), seems to me to be "more than ready" and talented than anyone I've ever seen, both in terms of in-ring skills and dynamism/charisma/personality/mic skills..and I felt so ever since I saw him for the first time in the last two months, as well as after watching his match against Cena from Battleground which I only did so yesterday. (I still haven't seen their match from Elimination Chamber).

    Whereas Sheamus just isn't/wasn't that good/talented. Incidentally, Kurt Angle was similarly pushed within the first year and it worked well because Kurt had that talent, and where he didn't, he worked at it and developed his art- that of talking, the character, and so on. But Jack Swagger didn't quite succeed did he?

    I agree here. I think KO is the best/superior choice to face and defeat Brock, with or without the WWE WHC on the line. But IMO, even though KO comes across as strong/aggressive and is a superb, dazzlingly beautiful in-ring performer, he would've been more legitimate/credible a threat had he been booked in a different way. But lets see. I would still buy it if he were to face and defeat Brock at WM 32. But if they go with Lesnar vs Wyatt, by all means, be prepared to see Lesnar suplex them all and win.
     
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  8. RomanfreakinReigns

    RomanfreakinReigns Championship Contender

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    I would love that. Bryan is a tremendous, superb wrestler and I'd be all eyes if they do a Bryan vs Lesnar for the WWE WHC, or even Bryan vs Reigns vs Lesnar. I don't even care if he doesn't seem congruous beside Brock, on account of the sheer size difference between them.

    We must wait anxiously another 24 hours before we experience any certainty as to what will constitute the main event of WM 32 and whether Daniel Bryan will return or not. Yesterday I was wondering...if Bryan doesn't return or they don't allow so..before WM 32, he may never really return to the WWE.
     
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  9. J.J.

    J.J. Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    The fact he went over Cena clean as a heel should speak volumes is what I'm trying to get you to understand. How often does that happen? This isn't Johnny Curtis debuting as Fandango and defeating Chris Jericho, this is Owens defeating the face of the company. I feel he's being handled properly, these injuries will be beneficial to him the most I feel.
     
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  10. Hyorinmaru

    Hyorinmaru Sit Upon The Frozen Heavens
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    I don't get some people they complain when people get a rocket shoved up their ass and complain when people don't.

    Owens has had an amazing time so far on the main roster, the best debut and beyond I've seen in a while. He's beaten the face of the company in his debut match, how many people can say that?

    He had an amazing IC title run and him & Ambrose have been essential in making that Championship mean something again.

    He's now being groomed to move up to the main event where he'll stay for a very long time.

    People are so impatient for their favorites to get shot up the card immediately not realizing or caring that it would damage them in the long run. Say they did exactly what everyone is clamoring for and he wins (or already has won) the WWE World Title. Then what? He wins it a few more times over the next few years and when the next batch of people come up from NXT he's shoved aside for the next guy with a rocket in his ass and has nothing more to accomplish.

    I like Owens to much to see that happen so I am 100% content with the way he's being booked right now.
     
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  11. ShinChan

    ShinChan Gone. For. Good.

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    I totally respect your opinion. Here is mine:

    I think he is totally credible enough to face Brock Lesnar. He has been booked rightly from his debut. Awesome matches with John Cena & Cesaro and now Dean Ambrose have made him credible enough. The way you are booking him, Its just almost like squash matches. Squash matches dont build a man. See Ryback. I am all ok with his booking except his leaving some matches unfinished.

    It isnot the era of mid-carders. There are main event talents wandering in mid-card level in WWE. But they are not paying much attention to them and leave them just as they are in mid-card. And Roman Reigns should not defeat Brock Lesnar.

    :devil:
     
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  12. J.J.

    J.J. Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Fans don't have patience anymore. If they're not champs in a 2 year window, they're an afterthought or being held back. The company is partial to blame for this for booking so many strong too soon. I've read so many fantasy Wrestlemania cards this year that involves Finn Balor or Samoa Joe, despite them still being in NXT.

    Owens has a bright future and he has some momentum behind him, but jumping the gun too soon becomes an issue. WWE ran into this with Ryback and he hasn't been the same since. Granted Owens is a much better talent, I don't want to see that happen to him nor do I feel he should be the next Brock Lesnar.
     
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  13. comrade_mario

    comrade_mario Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Reigns v Brock at last year's Wrestlemania was an excellent title match and show closer, even before Rollins cashed in and made it one of the more memorable bouts in WM history. The two of them put on the match of the night and had the best told in-ring story at Mania since Punk v Undertaker. I don't think they should go back to that match again for this year's Mania but lets not pretend it was rubbish last year
     
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  14. tvcolosi

    tvcolosi Getting Noticed By Management

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    20/20 hindsight Owens wasn't supposed to be at this level yet. Not that he shouldn't be but I get why WWE was preparing to have Mania revolve around Cena, Rollins, Orton etc who are injured. So that's why Cena won the KO fued. His time has come earlier and I think it will be easy to rehab him in time...

    I think this because the latest rumor I've heard is KO vs...

    THE FREAKING UNDERTAKER!!!!!!!

    So I expect him to be rehabed quickly like they are trying with The Wyatts
     
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  15. Just Zay'n

    Just Zay'n Occasional Pre-Show

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    KO vs. 'Taker isn't a very good decision IMO. If 'Taker loses in quite possibly his last match, that really damages his legacy. However if KO loses, his credibility will be damaged even more. Being the 'guy that beat Cena on his first night' won't matter after he's lost heaps of high profile matches.
     
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  16. Deoxyribonucleic A.C.I.D.

    Deoxyribonucleic A.C.I.D. Kamehamehaaaaa!!

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    100% wrong. That's NOT how you create stars. Don't believe me? Let's check a dozens of other bigger stars than Brock Lesnar.

    Steve Austin. He wasn't given the heavens in his first year like Brock Lesnar. He worked around the midcard for a couple of years, had some great feuds with Bret and Owen Hart and then, he became a top draw.

    The Rock. He worked around the midcard for a couple of years. Had a great feud with Triple H, then he became a top star.

    Triple H. The same. Cena. The same. Randy Savage. The same. HBK. The same. Even The Undertaker. Sure he got a WWF Championship in his first year. But that was not decisive, since he lost it a month later and his 2nd WWF Championship came 5 years later.

    The reason Brock Lesnar did had he did was because all stars were aligned that time in order for Brock Lesnar to completely destroy everyone. And because Brock Lesnar was such a unique asset.

    Hulk Hogan was leaving. So why not have him put someone over? Rock was leaving. So why not have someone beat him on his way out? Undertaker was bound for a break. Enter Brock Lesnar. Here you have SmackDown's 3 top stars bound on the exit door. Of course WWE was going to give Lesnar everything, since he already looked legit.

    As far as Kevin Owens goes. Cena's not leaving. Orton's not leaving. You can't just kill their star power by having them lose to a debuting rookie (that's what Owens is in a casual fan's eyes), since they will still get to stay afterwards.

    What Owens needs is exactly what he gets. A strong mid card push, that will make a star in the future. If he does not face Lesnar now, he will definately face him in the future. No questions about it, since Owens is a beast and will definately become wrestling's most hated.
     
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  17. Jack-Hammer

    Jack-Hammer YOU WILL RESPECT MY AUTHORITAH!!!!
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    I sort of see this as another example of where WWE just can't really win as there's a lot of unsatisfied people on both sides of the argument. If Owens had a rocket strapped to his ass and was WWE Champion a few measly months after debuting on the main roster, there'd be complaints, criticism and no short of wondering why Owens receives such preferential treatment. If he's not pushed to the moon, then you have the other side of the fence claiming that he isn't being used to his full potential and that he should have already been in the upper tier of the top guys on the roster.

    In the grand scheme of things, I've no real complaints on Owens' use thus far. He was only in NXT a small handful of months before coming to the main roster, won a clean pinfall victory over John Cena in his very first televised match on the main roster, engaged in a series of classic matches with Cena, eventually won the Intercontinental Championship, is currently engaged in the IC title feud with Dean Ambrose that's been one of the most entertaining IC title feuds in quite a long while, both men are being elevated during this feud, Owens found himself as the only competitor to actually wrestle against Roman Reigns in the "one versus all" match on Raw a few weeks ago, a match in which Owens dominated much of and was elevated in the process and is one of the favorites to win the Royal Rumble match tonight to become WWE World Heavyweight Champion. So yeah, great first year for Owens.

    As far as building him up to be a credible opponent for Brock Lesnar, there's still plenty of time to do that. IF the plan is for Lesnar vs. Owens, just keep Owens looking dominant over the next few months, have him engage in a few brawls with Lesnar in which he either comes out ahead decisively or gives as good as he gets so he looks like he can hang with Lesnar and the seeds are sewn for a potentially great match up. If Owens had little momentum at this point in time, I'd probably agree that it's been a waste, but he has tons of it going for him so building him up to be a worthy opponent for Lesnar won't be difficult, given the timeframe for WrestleMania.
     
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  18. #tamale

    #tamale Marry me Billie Kay!!!

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    Your beef is that Owens did not get a rocket push, not if he is credible enough to face Lesnar. Owens can be a credible opponent. Ambrose can be a credible opponent. Even Kalisto can be a credible opponent. You know why? Because your record does not matter. All that matters is how you package the feud. I would buy into an Owens/Lesnar feud because I know those two stars have the ability to make a feud hot. That's it.
     
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  19. mkw1962

    mkw1962 Getting Noticed By Management

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    Just like I said back in June Kevin vs. Brock would make for a great match and a great feud. Brock is going to be around for the next three pay per views, this is a good time to start this feud. I know Kevin is feuding with Dean right now but put Kevin in the Rumble and have him eliminate Brock.
    Kevin is ready for Brock, Bray is ready Sheamus is ready a lot of wrestlers are ready for Brock he is just like anyone else.
    For now it is Kevin vs. Dean and probably Brock vs. Bray going into WM32. Roman vs. HHH for the title.
    I see Kevin vs. Brock sometime this summer if Brock is around, but please do not put the World Title around Brock's waist. The timing is just not right at this time with all the injuries and feuds going on but Kevin and Brock would be huge if it was made for WM32.
     
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  20. RomanfreakinReigns

    RomanfreakinReigns Championship Contender

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    Actually, that is the whole point of this thread, for which I spared no little detail when I elaborated it so microscopically. It's in the title itself, "Kevin Owens could have already been more credible..." had he won the feud against Cena by winning the final match and/or the US title.

    I refuse to believe that performers like Rusev and Bray Wyatt have any shot at winning against Lesnar. Because if they do, it'll be the most absurd thing the WWE ever did kayfabe-wise. Let's say Bray Wyatt beats Lesnar at WM, cleanly or otherwise. What does it say?

    Brock Lesnar> The Undertaker, and John Cena.
    The Undertaker> Bray Wyatt 2-0.
    John Cena> Bray Wyatt 3-1 (?)

    and Bray Wyatt beats Lesnar? It just doesn't work that way. And even if you suspend disbelief and dispel logic, Bray Wyatt shouldn't beat Lesnar because Bray Wyatt's character wouldn't really benefit in the long run as he's doomed to be more of a side act, a circus freak, not the world champion people buy tickets to see.

    But Kevin Owens beating Lesnar is plausible because not only does he seem and act believably, as a big, tough, chubby guy who can also run his mouth pretty well but can also back it up, as he proved in his first match against Cena. Also, I see him more as a hybrid of a Punk/Bryan and Lesnar, in that with the former, he shares that exquisite independent wrestling background, interesting character, superb agility and dozens of cool holds/moves, and with the latter- that spark of legitimacy as a genuinely "big" and "strong" guy who can kick ass, and not be just another Snitsky, Heidenreich, Braun Strowman, Big Show, etc. All of that to me, IMO, constitutes a championship material, maineventer, and the best all-rounder the WWE could have since Punk era, and besides Seth Rollins(who isn't very big, I might add).

    The point I have been trying so desperately to make is that he would've seemed even better and more credible, had he beaten John Cena in their 3rd match, thus instantly transcending the crop of mediocre wrestlers, surpassing people who just claim- the Bray Wyatts and Rusevs of the WWE- and becoming the real guy..the closest legitimate beast(albeit without a UFC/MMA background) the WWE could attain after Brock Lesnar.


    That's really a ridiculous thing to say, man. While I agree that KO, even as of now will seem a bit credible(on account of the aforementioned factors) as a big guy who could beat Lesnar, and that just the packaging of the feud(if it happens) could/would do wonders...it doesn't apply to most wrestlers or wrestling in general.

    If records in FAKE wrestling(yes I know it's scripted) didn't matter, Brock Lesnar wouldn't even be where he is right now. His whole elevation in the past 2 years has happened solely after he beat Taker and ended the streak, followed by squashing John Cena and winning the WWE WHC. Hell, we wouldn't even be discussing it in this thread had Brock's "fake wrestling record" not existed...

    Pro-wrestling is fake and scripted, but yet records and wins matter...Rusev and Bray Wyatt are testimony to that.

    And if mere packaging were to constitute "good story or booking" and a wrestler's record and the impression he conveys to the audiences were insignificant...you may as well book Kalisto or Heath Slater to beat Brock Lesnar.

    Please prove me wrong.
     
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  21. J.J.

    J.J. Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Him winning over John Cena in any capacity coming from NXT is a feat even guys that were already on the roster haven't accomplished. How often do heels straight up win? That set a tone for KO early regardless if he lost, he didn't lose credibility by not winning the title. Cena ultimately did more for that title last year than anybody has on the roster in years. KO wouldn't have.

    If ANYONE beats Brock it's an instant boost. Bray needs a big time win more than anybody right now because he has came up short. His last big win was against DBry at RR 2014. If Rusev is booked similar to how he was a while back he's a belivable challenger.

    Where do you pull this bs from?

    Now you're acknowledging his Cena win that you were writing off as not as credible because he didn't win gold.


    You want WWE to build stars but it was wrong for KO to not go 2-1 over Cena because they were focusing on Reigns which you felt wasn't fair. But you'd want to hold down guys like Rusev, Ambrose and Wyatt to make a star out of KO? What a total contradiction.

    Do pointed out HOW he won, that's what is more remembered. It's goes beyond wins and loses with Brock. It's how he won. He ended a legendary streak and beat Cena in dominant fashion. He beat Cena but look at how he beat him, that's why he's viewed as so dominant because nobody has seen Cena get manhandled like that and lose the way he did. Him beating Taker will stand out more that first match vs Taker getting revenge and Lesnar going 2-1 in the feud, more people will remember the shock value of the streak being broken.

    To an extent, it depends on to who and what was at stake. Bryan lost clean to Bray Wyatt at RR 2014 but it did not hurt Bryan's monentum. It matters to an extent - depends againdt who. New Day often loses on Raw and SD but it hasn't killed their momentum. Kane lost majority of his matches last year but he was convincing enough to win with Undertaker.

    All I can take from this post and the original is you've got a man crush on KO and feels he should be next in line to get the big push from day 1.
     
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  22. RomanfreakinReigns

    RomanfreakinReigns Championship Contender

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    Yes I agree. It was a feat alright. And my point is losing the next two matches made him look like a chump. Hell, if they went with KO beating Cena clean in the first match in the first place, they should've had no problem with him winning THE FEUD, the last match, with or without the US title on the line. Period. I agree John did a lot for the US title but that's irrelevant here. KO could've been the "next big thing" somewhat similar to Brock in 2002, and for that he should've won the feud, apart from some sort of an "undefeated" streak. How hard is it for you to get that?

    Just look at KO's current booking, he's losing to Kalisto and he just lost the last man standing match to Dean fucking Ambrose. That's your credible guy now alright..he's so credible against Brock now.


    This is dumb. It may seem like an "instant boost" on the surface, it never is. Look at where it got The Miz when he "defeated" John Cena at WM 27. So no, Rusev and Bray Wyatt beating Brock Lesnar would be absurd, considering their track record. And their careers aren't even going to really benefit, since as I said, Bray Wyatt is a side show, a creep act, who doesn't need to be WWE WHC or beat Brock Lesnar and be the face of the WWE. More importantly, Bray Wyatt doesn't have "it". Kevin Owens does. ONLY AND ONLY KO does.


    Like I said, neither of Rusev, Ambrose and Wyatt are credible or deserving enough to face and/or beat Brock Lesnar, especially at Wrestlemania. Dean is a mid-card talent at best, the guy in the jeans who pretends to be "crazy" without actual promise...he's a parody. Kevin Owens is the most deserving superstar on the roster. The thread is about HIM and not these other three chumps. And I'm fine with whatever their current roles are, but yes, may be they would've been (Wyatt and Rusev) doing better had they actually won feuds, like against Cena.


    Bryan stuff I agree. It was still absurd the way they tried to bury/sabotage him by booking him with the whole Wyatt family thing. But then, there's a profusion of "dumb" and "absurd" when it comes to WWE creative/storylines in the last many years. My point of win-lose records mattering still holds, though. Anyone who denies it is a moron.

    Crush..it's an interesting word. If that's all you could "take", I can only blame your perception and character.

    So if my defending my argument/thread/idea/vision rigorously equals my having a "crush", I suppose OYDK has a crush on KO too, since he clearly agreed with that vision. The person who green-repped me and said "One of the most logical and best posts I've seen on this site" has a crush too I suppose. May be they have a crush on me, who knows?
     
    #22
  23. J.J.

    J.J. Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Because he's not Brock Lesnar? He's not a WWE manufactured talent? How long have you been watching WWE, 2 years? You think any indie guy was going to come in and go over the company's top star in a feud? Obviously you don't get it.

    So what? He has accomplished more in 6 months on the roster than some guys that have in 2 years, yet you're complaining. Goes over Cena very first match, you're complaining. He had a good matchup against Reigns other week, you're complaining. Him and Ambrose arguably stole the show tonight, despite it looking good for both guys you're still complaining. You're not spewing logic, you sound obnoxious and I mean that respectfully.

    Rusev and Bray Wyatt are better workers than The Miz, Wyatt is more charismatic than The Miz. I personally thought he had a decent title run, turning him face is what killed him. Anyone 'conquering' the beast at this point looks good rather you want to convince yourself otherwise.

    Who says they don't have it? You, because you dislike them? That's your logic? Vince actually praised Bray Wyatt and feels he's on a short list of guys that are the future. Go watch the Austin podcast if you don't believe me. Rather it's true or not is yet to be seen but I feel he'll be a main eventer. I've never viewed them as face of WWE but future main eventers to rival the face, sure.

    Bray Wyatt has the most unique gimmick on the roster, but what do you define as "it"?

    You're going to have to come at me with logic; "Owens is better than them" bullshit. Ambrose is the most over face on the roster despite playing second fiddle to Reigns last year. Yeah he wrestles in jeans yet Owens wrestles in basketball shorts and a 4xl tshirt lmao. Rather you want to criticize Ambrose or not he's more over than Owens from a booking and fan standpoint and that's not even questionable. Wyatt is still over and very much involved putting the RR over, did you miss Raw on Monday?

    I honestly couldn't see anything that would justify Owens needing to be booked like Lesnar was. If you've watched WWE over the years you'd see that WWE won't do anything like that unless it's one of their own.

    But your defense didn't possess not a shred of logic. You want Owens pushed because you're a fan and that's understanding. Who wouldn't want to see their favorite guy pushed? But then you're trying to defend it by saying silly things like "Ambrose should be or won't be more than a mid carder" when he's the second biggest face on the active roster isn't a logical defense, it's an asinine thing to say. Obviously he's more popular than Reigns but not a WHC yet.

    Yeah, shame on them for attempting to add depth to the storyline and wanting to push their own homegrown talent, yet still giving DBry the title at WM.
     
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  24. Jeff Deliverer of Mail

    Jeff Deliverer of Mail Join WZCW because writing is hip
    E-Fed Mod

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    Kevin Owens just had a pretty damn good Royal Rumble in terms of screen time. K.O had a lengthy hardcore last man standing with Ambrose to start the show, entered the Royal Rumble later in the night and eliminated A.J Styles, then established his on going feud with Sammy Zayn to end the night and possibly set up a Wrestlemania showdown with A.J or Zayn or both.
     
    #24
  25. Pika

    Pika Pre-Show Stalwart

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    Following Royal Rumble I think Kevin is going somewhere. I may not know exactly where yet, but he put on an amazing performance and that should mean something! His match with Dean was great plus the AJ Styles elimination. Also sounded like he was getting cheered pretty heavily.
     
    #25

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