Intl. Region, Minneapolis Subregion, Second Round:(3)Andre the Giant vs.(14)Rikidozan

Discussion in 'International Region' started by klunderbunker, Apr 11, 2014.

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Who Wins This Matchup?

  1. Andre the Giant

  2. Rikidozan

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  1. klunderbunker

    klunderbunker Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House

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    This is a second round match in the International Region, Minneapolis Subregion. It is a standard one on one match held under Standard Wrestling Rules. It will be held at the Target Center in Minneapolis, Minnesota.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    #3. Andre the Giant

    Vs.

    [​IMG]

    #14. Rikidozan



    Polls will be open for four days following a one day period for discussion. Voting will be based on who you feel is the greater of the two competitors. Post your reasons for why your pick should win below. Remember that this is non-spam and the most votes in the poll win. Any ties will be broken by the amount of posts of support for each candidate, with one vote per poster.

    Assume that all wrestlers are at full strength after their first round matches.

    Also remember that this is a non-spam forum. If you post a response without giving a reason for your selection, it will be penalized for spam and deleted.
     
    #1
  2. Bernkastel

    Bernkastel Reaper of Miracles
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    Oh great joy. Andre versus the Japanese Hulk Hogan. Do you know what happened when Andre faced Hogan? He got slammed on his ass and pinned. Who did Rikidozan defeat? On nobody special... just Lou Thesz... in the states... for a major title. Thesz of course being the Hogan equivalent before Hogan was Hogan. And lesser men than Rikidozan have beaten Andre: Harley Race, Stan Hansen, Verne Gagne, Akira Maeda, Antonio Inoki, Ultimate Warrior.

    This certainly would be Andre's match to lose. Why? Because Riki was undoubtedly the bigger star, had a much bigger legacy, and whose legacy affected the wrestling industry as a whole. Take Andre out of wrestling and it wouldn't really matter because wrestlers like Thesz and Sammartino were far bigger anyway. Some territories might have suffered but there'd still be a WWE. Hogan would still have his matches with Savage and Warrior and Undertaker becomes the greatest novelty wrestler ever.

    On the other hand if you took Rikidozan out of wrestling there'd be no pro wresting in Japan. He popularized it there and founded the traditions and the titles, and trained the likes of Inoki and Giant Baba. Hogan doesn't become a world wide star because there wouldn't have been a Japanese audience for him to entertain, there'd be no supershow in North Korea promoting better ties between nations, there'd be no crossovers with WCW and Japanese wrestlers don't tour the United States, there'd be no ROH [since that shit is based off puro] and the likes of Punk and Daniel Bryan never make it the WWE without that platform. So yeah.. pretty severe backlash.

    Rikidozan: bigger star, bigger draw, bigger legacy, bigger importance. He should and would go over Andre any day of the week.
     
    #2
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  3. Thriller Ant

    Thriller Ant Beep Bop Boop

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    Alright, you have some really questionable assumptions in here.

    1. You say WWF wouldn't have changed without Andre, but Andre, along with Hogan, is responsible for the biggest crowd in WWF/E history and one of biggest in pro wrestling history. Vince wasn't in as bad of shape around WrestleMania III as he was around the first one, but you can't just assume that everything would've been the same without that gate.

    2. Let's say your assumption of ROH not existing without Rikidozan is correct. There were still indies before ROH, and many indy companies don't use a puro-based style. Indy wrestling has existed for much more than 12 years, and talents like CM Punk and Bryan Danielson still could've been discovered without ROH, just like many are today.

    3. Rocky III is what made Hogan an international star, not wrestling for a couple years in Japan.

    Without knowing too much about Rikidozan, a lot of these claims you are making sound pretty outlandish and have me leaning even more toward voting for Andre than I already was.
     
    #3
  4. Bernkastel

    Bernkastel Reaper of Miracles
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    True. But I was outlining the fact that even without Andre, Hogan still would have had his feuds with Warrior and Savage. The WWE and Hulkamania still would have flourished. That's very minor compared to an entire style of wrestling maybe not being established and flourishing.

    What else would hey have based themselves off? ROH certainly wouldn't be the same company otherwise.

    And those promotions aren't anywhere near as big as NJPW or AJPW or NOAH. There's a valid reason why most talents choose to either go there or Mexico to work instead of local US promotions.


    Without wrestling in Japan where would those two have honed their crafts? In hardcore death matches matches in IWA Midsouth or CZW, maybe Mexico? Most of the indy talent that WWE has picked up has come through companies like ROH that have either based themselves on puroresu customs or worked in Japan. Dean Ambrose is like the only guy I can think of in recent year that actually came from the former. Even talent coming through Mexico don't get picked up as often as talent coming through Japan.



    Did I type international? I meant global. Wrestling for the Japanese helped make Hogan a global icon. The reach puroresu had throughout Asia and the rest of the world, helped make Hulk Hogan a name that everyone knew since he was already well known in the US and Canada.

    Was Andre important? Yes. But that importance doesn't compare to someone that helped establish an entire style of wrestling - along with the companies, titles, traditions, and future talents that were to come - that maybe wouldn't have existed otherwise.

    And that's just one part. Rikidozan was a hero to millions in his home country. He helped rebuild a sector of the economy with the revenue generated by the wrestling boom he started. As draw he was superior to Andre, his legacy as whole was superior to Andre's, his importance to the advancement of pro wrestling was superior to Andre's. Please do not vote based on favoritism. I implore anyone else sitting on the fence to reconsider and vote Rikidozan.
     
    #4
  5. Bythedockofthebay

    Bythedockofthebay Getting Noticed By Management

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    No I don't but then against you're not comparing Andre to just another guy. You comparing him toe Rikidozan who by all means was huge in Japan. As big as anyone.

    Without Rikidozan, there's no wrestling in Japan (and if there was it would've been a joke) Wrestling was popular since the 1800's across the board. It was never anything in Japan until Rikidozan came back and showed them how entertaining it could be. The fact is that without Rikidozan. There's no Big Van Vader, no Antonio Inoki, no Great Muta, possibly no Chris Benoit.. Which means the styles that CM Punk and Daniel Bryan adopted wouldn't exist. Meaning they very well may not. That said I'd rather keep this simple.

    Well that may be true but as far as pop culture goes Dozan stared in over 20 movies in his time, not to mention he had a documentary made about his life long his death

    Well, he was a movie star (even played himself in some), the reason why there is Japanese wrestling, he's remains relevant and is considered an Icon even though he died long ago. He beat Lou Thesz clean in AMERICA, and I have no problem believing that he'd do the same to Andre.
     
    #5
  6. Rainbow Yaz

    Rainbow Yaz Sing about me, I'm dying of thirst
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    Andre is from France. France allied with the US in World War 2. The US nuked Japan in World War 2. Rikidozan is from Japan. History is on Andre's side here folks.

    So you say, well Yazzy I won't like history. Okay, I can dig that, as I hate logic. Nothing more than the ****e sister of mathematics that logic is. Allow me to sway you with this.

    [​IMG]

    That is fucking Godzilla. He sends Japanese men running in terror with a warm trail of piss trailing behind them.

    [​IMG]

    That is Andre the Giant slugging Godzilla right in his ********er while the Staypuft Marshmallow Man watches in awe with a giant erection. Rikidozan would be so grateful for Andre fighting off Godzilla that he would lie down for him, and Andre would show him the French Alps.
     
    #6
  7. klunderbunker

    klunderbunker Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House

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    Without getting into this whole thing, I'd like to point something out.

    Ech said that without Rikidozan, there is no ROH. I'm not sure why this is supposed to mean something, because at the end of the day, ROH is a very distant third biggest wrestling company in America. It's not as big as ECW was, it's nowhere near as influential as ECW was, it's nowhere near close to what TNA is now. It's a feeder system to WWE and TNA, not a major national promotion. It's bigger than all the other indies at the moment, but that's not exactly something to write home about.
     
    #7
  8. The Brain

    The Brain King Of The Ring

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    I don't know that Rikidozan is unquestionably a bigger star than Andre The Giant. In fact I think Andre might be in the top three of most famous wrestlers all time. Everybody knows who Andre The Giant was. Some of you may have noticed I hang out in the old school section a lot. Andre is mentioned frequently. The name Rikidozan never comes up. In fact I'm willing to bet if not for this tournament most people on this forum would have never heard of Rikidozan. I appreciate that the tournament gives us the opportunity to learn about some guys we otherwise wouldn't know and I have no problem voting for those guys over lesser talents. Not over Andre though. Andre was one of the biggest names of my lifetime despite being well past his prime by the time I started watching. I'm not voting for Sadaharu Oh over Babe Ruth and I'm not voting Rikidozan over Andre The Giant. Sorry, that's just the way it is.
     
    #8
  9. HBsam31

    HBsam31 Totally Reeking of Awesomeness

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    I voted Andre because he is an icon of Wrestling. He and Hogan were what I always thought of when wrestling came up. I don't know enough about Rikidozan I will admit, but for me Andre deserves to go to the next round.
     
    #9
  10. Bernkastel

    Bernkastel Reaper of Miracles
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    ROH isn't that big of a promotion, but think about how the promotion has affected the WWE and TNA. Plenty of big stars like Punk, Bryan, Aries, half the Shield and many others got their start in ROH. And if they weren't there they were working themselves to death in Japan. Andre himself honed his skills in Japan and it helped make him an even bigger star. Without Rikidozan puroresu doesn't exist. He created the platform, elevated it, and trained his successors.

    His influence and legacy are much bigger than Andre's. That cannot be denied. Even as a draw he was still much bigger. If Lou Thesz jobbed for Rickidozan and Andre jobbed to Inoki; then you can surely bet Andre would job to Rikidozan.
     
    #10
  11. Tastycles

    Tastycles Turn Bayley heel

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    Rikidozan is no doubt a monumentally big name in the history of wrestling, and yes he did beat Thesz to launch a super popular period of wrestling in Japan. However, Rikidozan's whole schtick was that he was Japanese (he was actually Korean) and that he was an anti-American in order to capitalise on the sentiment in Japan, who had recently lost the war and two of their four biggest cities to the USA. In America, that kind of popularity would not hold water. This is exactly the sort of match where the French face would beat the Anti-American guy while the crowd shouted U-S-A! U-S-A! a la Christian vs Del Rio or whatever. Andre is a bigger star than Rikidozan in my opinion and would win here.
     
    #11
  12. Bernkastel

    Bernkastel Reaper of Miracles
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    You have got to be kidding me. Hulk Hogan, what was his gimmick? A real American. And what did he do? He fought for the rights of every man. Hogan defended the pride of America by defeating foreign bad guys all the damn time. That's what he stood for. He was exactly the same as Rikidozan. Hogan vs Iron Shiek and Slaughter are two well known examples.

    And no. Andre's isn't the bigger star. Not even close.
     
    #12
  13. Tastycles

    Tastycles Turn Bayley heel

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    Firstly, I meant an Anti-American sentiment, which is what Rikidozan had, he wouldn't suddenly become American in America.

    Secondly, it's totally different anyway.

    In what world was Hogan's popularity based on the unpopularity of an occupying army?

    I don't remember a time when Iranian soldiers were patrolling the streets of New York city or when the Iraqi air force nuked Chicago off the map. That's what happened in Japan, and that's why the guy who beat the American was popular. A US audience has never experienced anything like that so they would not relate to the character.
     
    #13
  14. Bernkastel

    Bernkastel Reaper of Miracles
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    That's not my point. My point is that Hogan defended the integrity of America and fans loved him for doing so. Rikidozan defended the integrity of Japan and fans loved him for doing so.

    Again, not the point. But if you want to get technical Hogan versus Slaughter was all about rubbing salt into the wounds of the American public at the time. Are you going to say that Hogan was only over in that feud because of the situation? Of course not. So why would it be any different for Rikidozan? The man was a huge draw, and had a huge effect on the legacy of pro wrestling. A novelty like Andre just doesn't compare.
     
    #14
  15. George Steele's Barber

    George Steele's Barber Advertise Here $9.95/month

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    Just because someone invented the gun doesn't mean he is a great shot or can compete with a guy with a bazooka. Look at Rikidozan's move set and finishers. They are useless against a giant.
     
    #15
  16. Bernkastel

    Bernkastel Reaper of Miracles
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    Kayfabe can be modified to fit circumstances. As a powerhouse Rikidozan could have easily adapted. Such a view is subjective as saying that Andre was more successful because he just so happened to tour everywhere. Well so did Rikidozan. And he accomplished more. He defeated the greatest star in the world on his home turf. And unlike Andre he wasn't built up to lose either.
     
    #16
  17. klunderbunker

    klunderbunker Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House

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    I agree with what someone said earlier: those guys would have gotten to WWE based on their work elsewhere. TNA would have signed a lot of them and they would have wound up in WWE anyway. ROH was a platform for them, but the scouts would have picked up on them at some point.
     
    #17
  18. Bythedockofthebay

    Bythedockofthebay Getting Noticed By Management

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    still the stiff style , and moves that these guys use wouldn't have been around. Meaning I doubt that's as simple as you make it out to be. Guys like Daniel Bryan, have admitted that they wanted to make a life in Japan, and without that option they may have not had the same dream, thus their existence as superstars would be at the very least in doubt.
     
    #18
  19. klunderbunker

    klunderbunker Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House

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    Ah you mean the stiff style that results in more injuries, the stupidity that is getting kicked in the face and screaming at the other guy instead of selling, forearm battles and whatever other nonsense ROH fans say IS WRESTLING. Based on that, I'm certainly voting for Andre now.
     
    #19
  20. Bythedockofthebay

    Bythedockofthebay Getting Noticed By Management

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    Lol, no I mean the stuff that allows smaller guys like punk and bryan look like they can actually do damage. And please dont compare what Japan did to what ROH does. Sure there are some things similar but no one in ROH is close to some of the greats from Japan.
     
    #20
  21. klunderbunker

    klunderbunker Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House

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    I question how "great" some of those Japanese guys are but that's another story for later.

    GUys like Bryan and Punk didn't just get over because of the Japanese stuff. People like Randy Savage, and Ricky Steamboat showed what people that size can do in America and did it in matches that entertain me far more than most of the Japanese guys did. We'll also ignore that those people got over far more for their ability to talk rather than their in ring work.
     
    #21
  22. Bythedockofthebay

    Bythedockofthebay Getting Noticed By Management

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    bryan, joe, Vader, all those guys didn't get over based on talking. Not saying they're awful but Japan has helped tons of guys stay afloat before becoming stars. Helping them making a living, and helped the progression of wrestling as much as any other country imo
     
    #22
  23. klunderbunker

    klunderbunker Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House

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    Daniel Bryan went from a midcard guy to winning in the main event of Wrestlemania based on his promos more than anything else. Vader got over based on destroying Sting, in America. Japan was a factor, but as with almost every major star in the world, they got far bigger in America than anywhere else.
     
    #23
  24. Poop Master Flex

    Poop Master Flex Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Here's the thing, Rikidozan may be more important in the history of professional wrestling but he was NOT a bigger star than Andre and he was NOT more well known than Andre, even people who have never seen a wrestling match know who Andre the Giant is, even if its from the Princess Bride and "Andre the Giant has a Posse". Andre was a tremendous draw basically doing the carnival career travelling around the world because people wanted to see a legit giant, his physical presence was something that had to be seen.

    Now Rikidozan was a big star as well, got to pin Lou Thesz and was a great face in Japan while being a great heel in America, was also a great face and pretty much built Japanese Wrestling as well as gearing it for the future by training Inoki and Baba. Truth be told if this match was in Japan Rikidizan would win no question, Andre has went down to big stars more than once but I don't think that would matter in Minnesota.

    Lets be honest, Minnesota isn't a place where Rikidozan is very well known, its AWA country and Rikidozan pretty much stuck with NWA. When Andre lost in his prime it wasn't often and it was almost always to a home town guy or a territorial hero, Rikidozan does not fall into either category in Minnesota, he's certainly a big enough star to beat Andre but where the match is placed hurts him. I'm not gonna downplay Rikidozan's significance to wrestling but he isn't beating Andre in Minnesota, I just don't see it happening.
     
    #24
  25. Bythedockofthebay

    Bythedockofthebay Getting Noticed By Management

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    Vader wouldn't even have been a character if it wasn't for Japan so he never gets over in WCW without that. And it was NJPW's agreement with WCW that got him in the door and view as a monster before he even destroyed sting. And Vader was bigger in Japan than here. He was infact a bigger draw in Japan as well.
     
    #25
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