Int Region, Fourth Round, 60 Minute Iron Man Match: (3) Sting vs. (7) El Santo

Discussion in 'International Region' started by klunderbunker, Apr 10, 2013.

?

Who wins this match?

  1. Sting

  2. El Santo

Multiple votes are allowed.
Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. UrUp

    UrUp Dark Match Winner

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2012
    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    3
    If El Santo was such a good guy, he'd surely put over Sting in this situation and in the instance of 60s meeting 80s upstart, El Santo would have to put over one of the universally greatest and honest baby faces of all time.

    For those who understand anything about wrestling, El Santo would "enjoy" losing this match! Some are unqualified to pass the torch too, but Sting would of been more then capable and also would of built a bridge toward crossing culture gaps. The Rock is the product of the WWE machine... Sting is not. Cena, Edge, Benoit, Eddie... there all apart of the same machine. The big stars left and they filled their placed and they were immortalized for it... Sting is an old school guy and a guy who the old school guys helped pushed... not promoters.

    El Santo would of put Sting over everyday of the week. Your talking about a "wrestling" guy who would of been 10x Bigger had he ever had the type of machine WWE is behind him.
     
    #26
  2. Bernkastel

    Bernkastel Reaper of Miracles
    E-Fed Mod

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2006
    Messages:
    4,288
    Likes Received:
    1,691
    But not his promoters, who would be trying to make money off of the interest this match would bring, they would be more interested in booking the bigger star into the next round. And that would be Santo. He had a much larger fanbase in his prime than Sting did.

    If this were Santo past his prime, but against a prime Santo Sting would be the one that would be happy to job.

    If Sting is an "old school" guy, then Santo would be an ""old" old school" guy. Whatever success Sting managed to accomplish Santo has him beat several fold. Most of the casuals that were big marks for WCW in the 90's aren't aware that Sting still wrestles... as evident how much interest TNA doesn't draw.

    There's your difference between Sting and Santo right there. There was no "could have been's" with Santo; he was the most successful wrestler that Mexico and lucha libre ever had. In his prime Santo would be booked to go over indefinitely.
     
    #27
  3. Pay Per Ghost

    Pay Per Ghost squashed Disco Inferno to become

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2010
    Messages:
    1,651
    Likes Received:
    985
    I am starting to despise El Santo.Yes, its coz I can't seem to vote against him. A Sting win wouldn't make any sense, under any circumstances in Mexico...unless it was a retirement match. Then only Sting would've had a chance.

    I just found out something, Inoki beat Andre thrice in NJPW's Sumo Hall in Japan in the 70s. That's a huge deal. Regional stars get the rub from visiting white men, thats how its been in wrestling. And that's kinda what it is like here, and I don't mean physically comparing the individuals, but stature-wise.

    El Santo wins every time in Mexico.


    STOP DRAwING MEXICO SANTO!
     
    #28
  4. Tastycles

    Tastycles Turn Bayley heel

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2008
    Messages:
    2,907
    Likes Received:
    1,515
    You could say that Santo wins this because it is in Mexico City, and that would be a reasonable argument. You could say he wins it because most of his matches were multiple fall ones that lasted a long time, and that would be a reasonable argument. You could say that he wins because he's a bigger draw than Sting, and that would be a reasonable argument. You could say he has a longer lasting argument than Sting, and that would be a reasonable argument. In short, a vote for Santo, is the reasonable argument.
     
    #29
  5. shattered dreams

    shattered dreams Hexagonal Hedonist

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2010
    Messages:
    1,522
    Likes Received:
    975
    Not really. Hulk Hogan is everything Santo was and then some but no one votes for him just because a match happens to take place in the heart of America. Absence of information is a terrible reason to ignore all the other criteria we use for the rest of the wrestlers.

    Can you provide a source that gives us match length?

    In wrestling? Not so sure. It takes a lot of pesos and most of Santo's in-ring career wasn't even on tv.

    It is only reasonable if you do something we do for no other wrestler in this tournament, that being assume the biggest pop culture star goes over regardless of anything else.

    I still have yet to see any convincing evidence Santo was an unbeatable singles wrestler. For instance, I would love for someone to tell me when his prime was and what he did that was impressive in a wrestling ring at that time. If his prime was his funeral, then I like Sting's chances.
     
    #30
  6. Tastycles

    Tastycles Turn Bayley heel

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2008
    Messages:
    2,907
    Likes Received:
    1,515
    Was one of the main pro Punk arguments in the previous round not that the match was in Chicago? That's the exact same thing. It is a categorical wrestling fact that people who's career is based on defending the national name do well. Santo is one such person, Rikidozan another. When Santo fought Austin in this tournament a few years ago, he lost in a total landslide, and a common reason given was that Austin was at home.


    I have seen several over the years, please don't portray me as a liar. I have to get to the train station, but I promise I'll edit this/post one later. I just haven't got the time to trawl the net right now.

    That's not really true. They started showing Lucha Libre in Mexico in the early 1950s, I would contest that his prime pretty much exactly coincided with that, from about 1951-1962 or so, though I guess the point stands as few had a TV.

    You keep going down this road, and I sort of understand why, but it's a bit bizarre.

    1) He wouldn't have been a popular culture star if he wasn't a popular wrestler first. If you compare the other crossovers, even within Lucha Libre, they are all huge stars. Look at the WWE's crossovers, and it becomes even more apparent - The Rock has made lots of money as a crossover, and Mr. Kennedy's film was widely panned.

    2) I've already told you several times that his prime was the late 50s early 60s. Did he win every match then? No. Did he win most? Yes. You completely ignored the last time I pointed it out as being about the most important thing in lucha libre is lucha de apuestas, and he won no fewer than 35 such matches without defeat. 16 of those were masks. I don't know of a single luchador with a record even approaching that. Looking at the other big names records in hair/mask matches (I've drawn attention to the mask wins, as because everyone can only lose this once, it makes it more prestigious):

    El Santo - 35 wins, 16 masks
    El Canek - 25 wins, 9 masks
    El Solitario - 24 wins, 1 defeat as a previous character, 13 masks
    Mil Mascaras - 13 wins, 5 masks
    Blue Demon - 11 wins, 6 masks
    Konnan - 10 wins, one defeat, 2 masks
    Gory Guerrero - 1 win, 1 mask

    Do you not see how that is an impressive in ring career?

    3) More on the history. Santo was not popular because he was in films. Santo was popular because a) many of his big wins were against foreigners and b) many of his big domestic wins were felt too, because of the economic situation at the time.

    Santo was born elsewhere, but moved to Tepito in Mexico City whilst still a young child. During this time there was a rebellion in Mexico called the Cristero War, basically caused by the fact that the government were anti-catholic. The resulting migration turned Tepito into a slum, with many poor people. Somebody called The Saint, a child of an area made poor because of their devotion to catholicism, beating the established stars of the day was always going to be popular. The ability of the man to connect to that crowd is what made him a far wider reaching star than just in the wrestling ring.
     
    #31
  7. shattered dreams

    shattered dreams Hexagonal Hedonist

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2010
    Messages:
    1,522
    Likes Received:
    975
    Yes, but that wasn't the only reason. It was more of tiebreaker than anything for that match. That is the distinction I am pointing out. Being in Mexico City certainly helps Santo, anywhere else he would have no chance whatsoever. I just don't see any other wrestler that gets that as a standalone argument. I don't see many people saying anything other than Santo was very popular in Mexico therefore he wins. The location by itself is insufficient evidence as far as I am concerned.

    I am not saying you are lying just that there seems to be little information about what Santo actually did in the ring opposed to the info about how big of a legend he is. Funny thing about legends, they are often exaggerated.

    Seems at least somewhat cherry picked and that isn't what I am getting at anyway. While it isn't apples to oranges when it comes to that laughable sci-fi lucha cinema, I still don't see why we are using movie popularity to determine who wins a wrestling match. If this was a silver screen match then maybe but it isn't.

    Who said he didn't have an impressive career? All I have questioned is if he is really battle tested when it comes to fighting people outside of his small pond. Furthermore, do you know how many lucha de apuesta matches he won from 1957-1963? The answer is zero. You might want to try again on that prime thing if you are going to hang your hat on those matches. Sure seems to me like it is still a situation where we are guessing on what Santo actually did just because he was a legend. Who is the biggest name he beat in these "most important" matches? None of those people you just listed. Hell, he doesn't even appear that battle tested in his own pond. He did lose (several?) high profile matches to Blue Demon in the early 50s though. It is also worth pointing out Santo turned 40 in 1957 and this is an ironman match, what do hair or masks have to do with anything here? This pudgy hometown hero that is over 40 has to go 60 minutes against a larger opponent. I hardly think my skepticism that the location of the match is all that matters is unwarranted.

    I find this incredibly unlikely. Santo was as popular as he was because of the pop culture stuff, that isn't to say he wasn't popular in wrestling, just that it would be impossible to reach the levels of popularity he attained simply from non-televised wrestling matches.
     
    #32
    Nate DaMac likes this.
  8. Tastycles

    Tastycles Turn Bayley heel

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2008
    Messages:
    2,907
    Likes Received:
    1,515
    Ok, but it is part of the evidence. The fact he is the most successful luchador in terms of lucha de apuestas also adds to that. The fact almost all of his matches were multi fall matches adds to it. The fact that he had a variety of different fighting styles adds to it. The fact he was a cross over star is a small part of the evidence. The fact he drew more people to his funeral than Sting drew to Starrcade 1990 and 1991 is another part of the evidence.

    There is an abundance of information about his relative successes in lucha de apuesta and title matches, both of which are impressive records, though like I said, take the title stuff with a pinch of salt. There may not be reams of match data, but looking at what there is, two things become clear 1) He won most of his matches 2) He won almost all of his matches where anything was on the line.

    We're not using that. What we're saying is you only get to be in 50+ films as a wrestler if you are already a good wrestler. He appears in those films as El Santo, the wrestler, you only get to that position if you're good. At no point have I said "Santo's in more films than Sting, so he's better", please stop making out that is anybody's argument, because I don't think it has been.

    He won 4 lucha de apuestas in 1963 alone! I don't know where you're getting your info from, but I can literally go on Wikipedia and refute what you just said. There's lots of "unknown" dates on there too, but the overwhelming majority of these will have been in my 1951 - 1962 timeline, and you can prove this by looking at who the people will. This requires more than wikipedia, but not much more. Take El Gladiador. He lost his hair to Santo, on an "unknown date" but having lost his mask in 1956, and lost his right to fight in Mexico City in 1959 after getting pissed before a match, it's clear when that fell.

    It's positive that you don't buy into the legend based on what people write about him uninformed, but the fact is I spent quite a lot of my university days finding out about these luchadors because I genuinely find them and the culture interesting.

    I don't understand what I have to say? I say that probably the most important aspect of Lucha Libre is winning Lucha de Apuestas and nobody has a stronger record than him. He wrestled more than 10,000 matches in a 50 year career, according to Arena Mexico, which is 200 matches a year. As it's fairly unlikely that he was wrestling that when he was in his 60s, it stands to reason that he had a very heavy schedule during the prime of his career. I'm pretty sure this ensures stamina.


    Why pick him for the films? He certainly wasn't the best at acting or even at making technically sound wrestling matches, so why would they pick him of all the wrestlers to be in the films? The answer is because he was the most popular wrestler by a mile.
     
    #33
  9. shattered dreams

    shattered dreams Hexagonal Hedonist

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2010
    Messages:
    1,522
    Likes Received:
    975
    That isn't clear to me at all, he seemed to lose the titles as much, if not more than his top contemporaries. To say there isn't reams is an overstatement. There is almost nothing on his match data. His lucha de apuesta record is impressive but it is significantly less so when you consider the level of competition. Only 6 of the 35 have been deemed relevant enough to even have a Wikipedia page.

    From 1957 to 1963 as in starting in January 1957 and ending in January 1963.

    Still not late 50s early 60s, did you mean early 50s? Did someone update Wikipedia because it is in there now. Also, I see no reason I should equate that household name El Gladiator with Sting, which is kind of the more important point. If these matches were so important, why does no one remember when they were?

    I find the cultural aspects of it interesting as well, however, in this tournament I also find all aspects of the situation interesting. No one is talking about the match itself except to suggest a still unproven idea that Santo regularly worked long matches. I'd actually be interested in reading what you have about Santo's career if it is more than just vague rhetoric about how legendary he was.

    Or short matches, or tag matches. How often was he going 60 minutes vs someone 5 inches taller and 40 pounds of muscle heavier?
     
    #34
  10. FitFinlay4Life

    FitFinlay4Life What's the craic?

    Joined:
    May 4, 2010
    Messages:
    1,908
    Likes Received:
    708
    Dammit, I suppose that's what I get for going away for the weekend!

    I've hunted about and think I've finally found a site with reasonable stats on El Santo, so here it is...

    http://www.wrestlingdata.com/index.php?befehl=bios&wrestler=373&bild=4&details=4&statart=0

    ... and to be fair - here's the Stingers...

    http://www.wrestlingdata.com/index.php?befehl=bios&wrestler=26&bild=1&details=4

    To knock that down a bit further: Santo's singles record here is 31 wins; 19 defeats and 12 draws... a 50% win history, hardly astounding!

    I have seen people saying that the closest comparison to Santo in America is Hulk Hogan, Sting's record against Hogan 1 on 1? 12 wins; 0 loses and 3 draws.

    http://www.wrestlingdata.com/index.php?befehl=konst&letter1=S&wrestler1=119&letter2=H&wrestler2=184&letter3=&wrestler3=0&letter4=&wrestler4=0&anzeige=&matchtyp=1

    El Santo is a Mexican icon and, when it comes to Mask matches, he's the Undertaker at WrestleMania BUT his ordinary records that can be found indicate that he is extremely beatable and his most famous feud... he lost! Sting, against a who's who of WZT competitors... well see for yourself...

    http://www.wrestlingdata.com/index.php?befehl=bios&wrestler=26&bild=1&details=10&statart=&sort=0&seite=1

    Santo has won this match but he shouldn't have (and he shouldn't have beaten Rock either) and the annihilation he'll receive in the next round will be testament to that.
     
    #35
    shattered dreams likes this.
  11. shattered dreams

    shattered dreams Hexagonal Hedonist

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2010
    Messages:
    1,522
    Likes Received:
    975
    Interesting find. While the data there is FAR from complete it does confirm that the idea that Santo basically never lost is a crock. Not much time mentioned there but when it is the matches don't seem very long either. Santo is legit as popular as people have said. Too bad they refuse to figure out why, unlike they do with every other wrestler in the tournament.
     
    #36

Share This Page

monitoring_string = "afb8e5d7348ab9e99f73cba908f10802"