"Indy Darlings" and the Intercontinental title, would you be satisfied?

Discussion in 'The Wrestling Archives' started by tvcolosi, Jan 29, 2016.

  1. tvcolosi

    tvcolosi Getting Noticed By Management

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    I was thinking the other day about how the Hardcore IWC hating on guys like Cena, Roman and the non workrate heavy Indy guys. This isn't unlike the 80s with guys like Hulk and Warrior.

    What if the WWE went back to the formula where those "body" guys have the world title and their main events and this influx of Indy guys compete for the IC title and the smaller lighter guys have the US Title

    Look at the talent they could fill, Intercontinental Title With,
    AJ Styles, Samoa Joe, Finn Balor, Sami Zayn, Kevin Owens, Austin Aries, Shinske Nakamura, Cesaro..

    US Title ; Kalisto, Neville, Kidd, Itami, Woods, Cody,

    Wow, right? Obviously these guys could compete for both, but you catch my drift..

    I left off Ambrose and Apollo Crews because Dean has been in and out of the Main event scene for 2 years now and I just have a feeling bout Crews and I think he's going to get pushed to the moon on Raw.
     
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  2. A11oftheLights

    A11oftheLights Getting Noticed By Management

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    Will not work. The hardcore IWC have no interest in anything other than having a darling as World Champion. That could be because the way shows are booked these days the only story that gets any attention is the main story. If WWE changed that and made every segment further a story or mean something would that change the way those hardcore fans react? Maybe but probably not. But I cant see anything changing anytime soon, Raw has no competitor at all and for as long as Vince holds a monopoly over mainstream wrestling they have no need to change
     
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  3. YatesA

    YatesA Occasional Pre-Show

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    The thing is, a lot of the smaller "Indy darlings" are simply better at everything in the world of pro wrestling than most of the bigger guys who are pushed no end. Maybe that's why they are cheered more than others. However that IC Title group would be insane, they wouldn't be out of place competing for the World Title to be honest.
     
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  4. Navi

    Navi With the safety off!!

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    So let me get this right. You want just the home grown WWE guys like Cena, Orton, Reigns etc be main event material. And only they should be allowed to compete for the WHC.

    Anyone who came from another promotion like Rollins, Ambrose, Styles, Balor, Bryan (if he returns), Cesaro etc go for the IC Title. And if they are smaller guys basically turn the US title into the Cruiserweight Title.

    I'm sorry but I just don't get this Indy guys versus WWE guys. Can't they all just be wrestlers, going out there night after night doing what they do for our entertainment. It really irks me that fans feel that someone like Ambrose or Cesaro isn't good enough to compete for the highest title, when they are. And I don't understand the mindset of fans who say the are wrestling fans, when it's obvious they only like what Vince wants them too.

    I see a lot of people on this forum use the expression WWE sheep, and I'm beginning to wonder if they are right.

    Any wrestler worth his salt who comes to work for the WWE should be able to compete for whatever belt they deem him necessary. It should be based on skill and talent, not where they came from or what they're wrestling background is. If we go with the OP's idea, then Roman Reigns will be holding the title from now till God knows whenever, because the WWE is very slow in building new stars, and they haven't even started on the next one yet.

    All the names coming out of NXT to the main roster are from other companies and they would be exempt under the OP's criteria to challenge Reigns for the title. I think a lot of fans would turn away and go watch other promotions where good wrestlers are given the chance to excel, not be held back. I for one would.
     
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  5. Jack-Hammer

    Jack-Hammer YOU WILL RESPECT MY AUTHORITAH!!!!
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    This thread is a bit confusing because the OP seems to simultaneously understand and not have a clue how the mind set of hardcore internet fans work.

    The problem with relying entirely on outside indie talent, the way many of the hardcore net fans would prefer, is that the bodies of some of these are just plain worn out. A lot of these guys have killed themselves out there on the indie scene by putting their bodies through hell via insane spots because that's a huge part of the bread and butter of these guys out on the indie circuit. Ever notice how so many ROH matches seem to have this insane, nonstop pace in their matches that're packed with spots with hardly any storytelling or selling? That's usually how the indie scene as a whole works and it can result in wrestlers burning themselves out just as surely as the WWE's schedule. Part of the reason why WWE puts more emphasis on storytelling and selling rather than these insane paces and spots is because the wrestlers would be lucky to last a year before their bodies gave out, given WWE's intensive tour schedule; it's a big reason why the wrestlers are "limited" or their move sets aren't as expanded as they could be. It's one thing wrestling a maybe 3 or 4 times a month and wrestling 5 days or so out of the week, every week,

    As for the notion of having only guys like Cena or Orton challenge for the WWE World Championship, this is where I get confused. It's as if the OP hasn't been watching WWE for the past several years and hasn't seen the sort of reaction of the fans when the likes of CM Punk or Daniel Bryan haven't gotten shots at the main event. It's not just "internet fans" who're believe that the title shouldn't be only for the 250 pound or more club; I think most fans don't give a damn if the wrestler is homegrown or an indie darling so long as he has the talent and the ability to keep them interested in what he's doing. The problem most fans have, in my opinion, is that so many of these more talented and interesting guys are guys who either aren't part of the 250 pound or more club or who don't have the cosmetic "look" that Vince McMahon seems to prize more than most other factors. Over the last 15 years or so, I'd say that probably a good 75% of the most talented wrestlers who've been debuting in professional wrestling, in terms of in-ring ability, personality, charisma, etc. have been guys who're generally within the 5'8" to 6'0" height range and 180 to 220 pound weight range. Compared to big stars of the past like Hogan, Sting, Warrior, Sid & Nash and more modern stars like Cena, Lesnar, Sheamus & Reigns, most of the more talented, emerging stars are physically much smaller and don't have the sort of Herculean physique of the larger guys.

    The thing is, however, that the mind set of WWE will have no choice but to change because the success of NXT and its growth have dramatically altered the way WWE scouts talent to sign who've had experience as wrestlers and talent whom they hope to build from the ground up. Vince may prefer larger guys in the top spot but Vince won't be around forever and if Triple H is pegged to ultimately take his place, it's pretty obvious that he has a different sort of mind set than Vince and is more in tune with the mind set of modern fans. Vince is stubbornly holding into some old ideals and are become more obsolete with each passing year when it comes to the sort of cosmetic image top should have.

    Now that isn't to say that bigger guys aren't talented, that's just crap. There are a lot of larger guys, yes guys with great physiques, who have a lot of ability and have demonstrated said ability time & time again. There are some hardcore internet fans, however, who would rather die than admit to such a thing and really go so far as to be downright prejudiced against guys well north of 6'0" and really well built. As I said, I don't think most fans genuinely care so long as the wrestler has talent, keeps them interested and feels fresh; the problem stems from the fact that, in the minds of most fans, there are guys currently on the roster, and who have been on the roster for a while, who're flat out more talented and entertaining than the guys who've been getting pushed to the main event spots and most of these "more talented and entertaining" wrestlers happen to be guys who're under, right at or just slightly over the 220 pound mark
     
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  6. ShinChan

    ShinChan Gone. For. Good.

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    Exactly. I do feel that WWE is much focussed on its homegrown talents right now like Baron Corbin, Roman Reigns, Eva Marie, Charlotte, Nikki Bella etc. I think they are doing this because of the success from John Cena & Randy Orton and lack of continuous success from non-WWE veterans like CM Punk, Daniel Bryan etc.

    As for the OP, WWE shouldnot biased by considering their choices and likes over skill and talent. I do like the idea of Lightweight division like the X-Division of TNA. Lightweight Championship should easily replace US Title because there is no logic of having a country-based title when you possess a continent-based title. IC Title should be the second title after World Title as IC title covers more area than US Title.

    :devil:
     
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  7. YatesA

    YatesA Occasional Pre-Show

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    The brilliance of the "X Division" is that it doesn't created a stigma like "cruiserweight" or "light heavyweight" does as some of the smaller guys do become so over that you just have to capatilise and put them into the main event. However I agree US Title should be replaced and have it for the athletic exciting wrestlers but try name it in a way where it doesn't create a huge divide where these guys are never looked at as potential world title contenders.

    Light heavyweight would be my preferred out of the 2 you mentioned though.
     
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  8. Papa Pillman

    Papa Pillman I've got more Ho's than Jim Duggan

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    I do think that the IC belt has kind of started to pick up the reputation as the "workrate title", but it shouldn't be limited to such a notion.

    Also one major problem with the OP: can we please not lump Nakamura in as an "Indy guy"?
     
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  9. Mighty NorCal

    Mighty NorCal SHALL WE BEGIN?

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    I liked the idea of switching the fueds the titles are involved in...With Kalisto putting on great, high flying matches every week with the IC title, and Ambrose - Owens - et all putting on heavyweight style brawling feuds for the US title.


    But yes, the IC title always was, and should be again, the "smarky" title.
     
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  10. tvcolosi

    tvcolosi Getting Noticed By Management

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    You're right,I don't. IWC are fickle and contradictory to their own points a majority of the time. I'm tired of marks, who insist in calling guys by their Indy names and say "John Cena sucks but Rick Swann of someone like this who's 150lbs and can't cut a promo are" the best"
     
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  11. Softcore Holly

    Softcore Holly Only Holly to never hold HC title

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    The main problem with this idea is you want to regulate people due to their size and/or background rather than their actual talents. For example Braun Strowman is clearly a "body" guy and under this formula he's a world champ yet much more talented guys like, well just about everyone else you named would be in the lower card under him. In general it's a bad idea to just group up a bunch of guys and stick them in one place in the card just due to their size/backgrounds, each person should be judged in a case by case basis to see who can put on the best show and earn WWE the most money. Another example is if we went by this formula Seth Rollins, clearly one of the best young talents on the roster would never touch the world title since he's both a smaller/lighter + former Indy guy, and to put it mildly you'll have a very hard time convincing me that would be a good thing. And looking at the names under the IC title, why should they never compete for the WHC again? That's a lot of great talent there that can make WWE a ton of money/makes some awesome main events, regulating them to the lower cards seems both pointless and counterproductive at the same time. Really who the heck cares where they worked in the past/their size, if they can put on the best show/make WWE the most money then they belong in the main event, simple as that.
     
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  12. Piss Bucket

    Piss Bucket Future British World Champ

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    The IWC are in love with CM Punk and Daniel Bryan, and hate almost everybody else, especially Reigns and Cena, their stupidity is proven on that alone IMO.
     
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  13. Papa Pillman

    Papa Pillman I've got more Ho's than Jim Duggan

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    Jesus Fucksticks Christ dude. If you don't know anything about a guy, THEN DON'T FUCKING TALK ABOUT HIM!

    First off- Who the hell is Rick Swann??

    I'm sure I don't know. But if you think RICH Swann "can't cut a promo" you're sadly mistaken.

    If you're completely ignorant about the indy talent that WWE signs, then please refrain from making threads designed to covertly talk shit about them.

    Now a little lesson...


    and another...


    And those are 4+ year old promos, he's even better on the mic now.

    Rich Swann isn't some generic little high-flyer with no personality. He has a truck load of natural charisma and his speaking ability may outweigh his vast offensive arsenal and stellar selling. Is he John Cena? Of course not. BUT, is he a really shitty example for you to use to make your point? Clearly. But I guess knowing what you're talking about when you make a thread isn't actually a requirement to posting.
     
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  14. Pika

    Pika Pre-Show Stalwart

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    I really don't see my opinion change on someones weight or height. Wrestling is open to everyone, and there is somebody almost anyone can relate to. That is what makes it so great. Some people the Adults can look up to and people kids can look up to. Having set rules and belts for specific people is kind of ridiculous to me. Especially in a world as unpredictable as wrestling can be.

    Also what's the difference between a guy who can't cut a promo who weighs 250 and a guy who weighs 150? Nothing really. At least the 150 guy has more moves in his arsenal in the ring to work a match. Other than that I see a lot of wrestlers regardless of size being trash talked.

    For example I think Ryback is often boring. I also think Dolph Ziggler is sometimes. If you suck you suck.
     
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  15. Piss Bucket

    Piss Bucket Future British World Champ

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    Ryback could be good if the idiots in the audience would leave him alone about the fact he looks and wrestles like a Goldberg wannabe.
     
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  16. JoeMallard

    JoeMallard Getting Noticed By Management

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    Your opinion is shit and you're apart of the IWC dumbass! I love both Punk and Bryan, but I also enjoy Cena, Owens, Wyatt Family, Ambrose, Rollins, Cesaro, Kalisto, Rusev, Lesnar, New Day, should I continue?

    Back to the tread

    Keeping the "internet darlings" restricted to the midcard is just plain stupid. Doing so would allow only the guys that Vince likes to push down the fans throats the chance to be World Champion. All the guys mention in the midcard are getting over on their own, they should not have a cap put on high up the ladder they can get. How would anyone be able to climb up and grab Vince McMahon's imaginary "brass rings"?
     
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  17. Azane

    Azane Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Internet Darlings or Indy Darlings are both funny terms.

    Most of the time, someone like Daniel Bryan isn't just a meme, he's legitimately one of the best wrestlers in the world. We don't purely love them to be counterculture, we love them because they put work and effort into their craft of entertainment.

    Size matters for some storylines, but it's all about how creative uses them. The fans are open to ~200 lb guys in the World heavyweight main event spotlight.
     
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  18. Navi

    Navi With the safety off!!

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    Oh that's a pile of bullshit and you know it. Have you read the forums? CM Punk was a great wrestler, but he has a shitty attitude and it showed. Daniel Bryan, another great wrestler and if the rumours are true, a wonderful human being. He's not my cup of tea per-say, but I enjoyed him when he wasn't injured, not his number one fan though.

    Cena and Reigns have a lot of fans around here, I'm one of them. So really when does who you like make prove your stupidity? As far as I can see the WWE roster is made up of many different types of wrestlers. They all have fans and they all have people who don't particularity care for them. So what, it's a personal choice who you cheer or boo, and that's what being a wrestling fan is.

    You call yourself "the UK wrestling fan", but I'm not sure you even know what the word "fan" means.
     
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  19. BestSportsEntertainer

    BestSportsEntertainer I Don't Need No User Title

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    Give wrestlers the titles they deserve.

    Daniel Bryan deserved the WWE Championship at WM30. Roman Reigns deserved it the night after TLC. John Cena deserved it at WM21. CM Punk deserved it at MITB 2011.

    It doesn't matter if the wrestler spent 10 years in the indies or not. If they're talented and over enough, they should be champion at some point.
     
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  20. the_peoples_adam

    the_peoples_adam heROCKules

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    No no No..

    With the influx of talents WWE should introduce a new title like TV championship and Hardcore championship or bring them back..
     
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  21. OYDK

    OYDK King Of The Ring

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    It all depends. You can't just say, "Ok, everybody who's not home-grown has no shot at the WWE title". That's just ridiculous. Guys like Daniel Bryan, Seth Rollins, C.M. Punk, etc. were better overall talents than 99% of the roster. Are you telling me they should never have won the WWE World title because they made their names elsewhere first? Again, ridiculous. Let's also not forget that WWE's "home-grown" talents at this point stand at guys like Baron Corbin, Braun Strowman, Roman Reigns and Bray Wyatt, while most of the "indy darlings" that are hired have been wrestling for 10+ years.

    Like I said, it depends. I don't expect somebody like Neville or Kalisto to ever win the WWEWHC but I do expect Kevin Owens and Dean Ambrose to eventually. Because they're good enough. At the end of the day, that's the only thing that matters. If you can get yourself over, who cares where you come from?
     
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  22. BaconBits

    BaconBits WZ Czar of Steaks

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    This would be an awful idea. You can't limit folks' careers based strictly on where they came from. Even Vince McMahon understands that, as much as it pains him.

    And those "indie darlings' are becoming increasingly common in developmental, and pretty large percentage of the main roster will be from the indies/TNA/RoH/Japan in the next few years. Probably a larger percentage than homegrown talents.
     
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  23. timothy26

    timothy26 Pre-Show Stalwart

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    I honestly don't mind what segment a performer is in provided they get enough time to do promos and wrestle a quality match etc. Having an IC belt or whatever mid card title can add a nice touch to an angle but isn't necessary for it to be entertaining.
     
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  24. TempestH

    TempestH Championship Contender

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    By the OP's formula, Cesaro and Finn Balor should also be in the WWE Title picture, because they're "body guys" too. They're just "body guys" who happen to be really damn good at wrestling. And also you're also insulting the homegrown guys by lumping them all into a group and implying that they "can't wrestle". Cena is one of the better "workrate" guys on the roster nowadays.
     
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  25. sunday morning wrestling

    sunday morning wrestling making it fun again

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    Best sports entertainer is spot on!!! If it's deserving it should happen if u and I cheer loud enough that it had to happen. . Isn't that why Daniel will never wrestle again?? If they allow it, all they will get is us wanting him as champ. Even if every 5 matches he might get hurt, we still want it.. and we won't let you forget it but that's what you want you will cheer loud enough that they will have to listen. But that's the problem. . You don't want the sign in front of you at raw. . Or join the loud chants.. bc they don't make you care enough is what I think. You would if it was something to care that much about. . We had the rock on this week and I fell asleep. I bet I wouldn't have if the bullet club showed up haha

    Everybody is worth the push, bc really if it was someone in the lower cards we would be surprised and care. . Bc NEW is good in this case.. we've seen it all. . Now, what do you have?? Yeah I've seen the rock the usos.. but haven't seen them together maybe. . But wwe wants to know what's wrong.. we want more. . Why couldn't it have been Joe that said welcome to wwe and thrown out styles haha
    we want more and they have 3hrs (not complaining about the longer more character driven old school style matches) I understand they have a tv style they think is perfect for their viewers and might be, But the problem are the others. NEW is good in this case. . We've already had Bray for 3-5yrs we want NEW. . Yeah he has a new member and is ginormous.. which is awesome, but we need more.. NOT complaining about Bray but give us more.. not saying we need sister A either. We don't. . gaah if any other Indy gets a push quicker than anything they've given Cesaro. Yes he's been champ (tag, interc maybe) but don't take too long to get the young bucks haha
     
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