Houston Region, SF Subregion: First Round: (11) Great Muta vs. (22) Verne Gagne

Discussion in 'Houston Region' started by klunderbunker, Feb 22, 2011.

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Who Wins This Match

  1. Great Muta

  2. Verne Gagne

Multiple votes are allowed.
Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. klunderbunker

    klunderbunker Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House

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    The following contest is a first round match in the Houston Region.

    This match takes place in the Cow Palace in San Francisco, California.

    [​IMG]

    #11 Great Muta

    [​IMG]

    Vs.

    #22 Verne Gagne

    [​IMG]

    This contest is one fall with a 20 minute time limit. The match will take place in a 16 x 16 ring with no ramp leading to it. Any traditional managers for either competitor will be allowed at ringside.

    As for voting, vote for who you think would win this match based on the criteria you choose. Some suggestions would be (not limited to): in ring ability, overall skill, their level of influence at the highest point in their career, ability to connect with the crowd, experience in major matches or simply personal preference etc.

    The most votes in the voting period wins and in the case of a tie, the most written votes wins. There is one written vote per user, meaning if a poster make ten posts saying Bret should win that will count as a single vote. In the event of a second tie, both men are ELIMINATED, no questions asked. Only winners advance.

    Voting is open for four days and all posts must be non-spam.​
     
    #1
  2. 6timehitta

    6timehitta Big Papa Panty Droppa

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    Ok, Verne Gagne, well a great example of a wrestler that is a better promoter than wrestler. Great wrestler, but he will be remembered as a promoter and for leading the AWA for so many years. The Great Muta on the other hand was an epic wrestler. Perhaps in the top 5 of greatest japanese wrestlers EVER!!!!! Muta wins this after his evil green mist.
     
    #2
  3. Tastycles

    Tastycles Turn Bayley heel

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    Verne Gagne will undoubtedly be presented as the man who put the AWA title on himself here, which is unfair. It's what I always thought myself, but then I found out that Gagne was a huge deal in the NWA before his AWA run. So big a deal in fact that he was allowed to carry an alternative championship to the NWA one, despite it being against the NWA regulations, because he was such a huge draw. When people talk about the televisual reveloution, they often point to Thesz and in particular Gorgeous George. While they were unquestionably important, it was Gagne that was the household name thanks to the Dumont Network.

    Muta is an innovator, and is unquestionably a great wrestler, and as a result he will probably win this match. However, although he enjoyed some exposure in the US, there's absolutely no way he would beat Gagne at the height of his popularity, when he was arguably the biggest deal in wrestling in the United States. Gagne was old school, but he was a technical wrestler, nonetheless, and gifted as an amateur, so I don't think the whole quickness aspect will play as much a part as people will inevitably claim.
     
    #3
  4. Bernkastel

    Bernkastel Reaper of Miracles
    E-Fed Mod

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    The Great Muta was amazing, a clear example of the theatrics of the Western style blended with the stiffness of the Puro style. The way he would work his matches in Japan reminds me of an arrogant warrior, full of pompous and pride. Almost like a snake really...

    Gagne from what I've seen, is very traditional, meaning that he doesn't take many risks. He works mainly a stiff, techincal ground style. Muta has the speed to match, and unfortunately for Gagne, also possesses the green mist... which Gagne would never see coming until it's too late...
     
    #4
  5. X

    X RIP Sgt. Michael Paranzino / RIP CM

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    Verne Gagne is one of the most boring wrestlers, ever. He makes Dory Funk Jr. look like Rey Mysterio. Yeah he was a great promoter in the 70s, but he ran his company into the ground because of his nepotism in the 80s. Yeah he was a big deal in the NWA, I don't care, the man is one of the least entertaining wrestlers I've ever seen.

    Muta, on the other hand, is one of the few Japanese legends to reach a great deal of success in the United States. Former NWA champion as well, just like Gagne. The deciding factor that gave him my vote? He's one of the most entertaining professional wrestlers of the last 30 years. The NWA, WCW, NJPW, AJPW, he's dominated in all of them and that's more than can be said for Verne "I'm going to push my talentless son until it literally bankrupts my company" Gagne in my book.

    Not the most scientific of voting methods, but there's no way I could justify voting for Verne Gagne with how much I dislike the man.
     
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  6. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Gagne was a decent booker and I can't deny that he was a big name in his day. That being said, Muta wrote the book on heel psychology and no one has ever come close to one-upping him in this respect. My vote's for Muta.
     
    #6
  7. Gelgarin

    Gelgarin Gentleman of the Old School

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    Seriously X? Seriously?

    You think we should vote through a self confessed child murderer, animal abuser and drug dealer to the next round?

    There was a time when I'd worry about getting called out on comments like that over accuracy, but you've made pretty clear that we're just allowed to make up our own information now, so fuck it; Muta touched children, caused the financial crisis and listens to Insane Clown Posse for entertainment.

    Firstly, what the fuck are you talking about when you say "Verne 'I'm going to push my talentless son until it literally bankrupts my company' Gagne"?

    I know I just swore at you in a rather impolite way (which you completly deserve) but that's a legitimate question. The accusations that Verne insisted on pushing Greg over more deserving talent, or that Greg wasn't a deserving talent in his own right, are ones that never seem to go away on the internet, but never, ever, seem to be made by anyone willing to back them up.

    Not to blow my own horn more than necessary, but I've done quite a lot of reading on Verne Gagne and have found not one iota of evidence for either of these hypotheses being true. Fuck, five minutes on wikipedia will prove the assertion to be a crock of shit.

    So X, perhaps you and I can get together and get to the bottom of this for the good of humanity. When you were talking about Verne Gagne running his company into the ground through nepotism... what the fuck were you going on about?

    Tell you want, because I like you, I'll do you a personal favor. I'll point out a bunch of ways in which your statement is wrong before you try and reply, so when you do give me a reason you don't look ignorant.

    1) Greg Gagne did not get his push through nepotism. He started working in AWA in 1972. Payed his dues as a jobber. Formed a midcard tag team and didn't see his first piece of gold until 1977, five years later. Gagne didn't get his first actual singles fued until 1984, over a decade after his debut. The man paid his dues.

    2) Greg Gagne was not untalented or unpopular. Upon his transition to singles wrestling he worked some of the most popular programs AWA had going. Nothing the promotion could put out at the time could touch Gagne vs King Kong Bundy or Gagne vs Henning. The man was an established draw.

    3) Greg Gagne was not made the focus of the promotion or pushed ahead of more deserving talent. You call Verne a nepotist, but in 1987, with top draw Brockwinkle retiring, Verne chose Curt Henning (who'd been in the promotion half the time of Greg) to be the face of his promotion ahead of his son. When Henning deserted and Lawler didn't work out Greg Gagne was suddenly the fans favorite to become world champion, but once again Verne elected to pass over his son and give the title to Larry Zbyszko instead.
    Verne Gagne was not a nepotist.

    4) Verne Gagne did not book AWA into the ground. This is the stupidest one you've come up with. If you look hard you can find disgruntled former AWA guys who will bitch about Greg, but the claim that AWA folded because of Verne's booking is just comical.
    What Verne Gagne did was book one of the most successful wrestling promotions in history, and kept it running for thirty years. That's twice as long as WCW, and three times longer than ECW. Verne Gagne is one of the greatest promoters in wrestling history.

    AWA did not fold because of booking. It did not fold because of backstage politics. And no matter how much history revisionists and the ignorant try to push the idea, it did not fold because Hogan left. AWA folded for the same reason all the other territorial promotions folded. Simple economics and Geography. Vince controlled the east coast, AKA, where all the damn people lived. He could run bigger cards more often and had infinitly more capital than his rivals. He could buy all the best talent and invest in expansion whilst all the AWA could do (from it's massive home base of Minnesota) was fight to survive. Hogen, Martel, Heenen, Henning and every other star the AWA built jumped ship because they could make better money elsewhere. You can't fight that, and condemning Verna Gagne for the promotion's collapse is even more stupid than those people who blame Russo for WCW's demise whilst completly ignoring Time Warner.

    So there you go X... perhaps you could inform me exactly how your statments make any kind of sense, because as far as I can tell they're just a rather poor work of fiction.

    ...

    As for the idea of Gagne being boring... if you hate old school wresting then good for you, and to be honest well done for admiting it. I sound sarcastic but I'm not. Most people chiefly interested in flips and highspots insist of making random comments about how "Andre the Giant was pretty good" or whatever, instead of just admitting what they're watching for. Cudos.

    You do appreciate that Verne Gagne wasn't actually boring through right? I mean I personally find Hulk Hogan boring, but 80,000 paying customers say differently, so I'm forced to conclude that mine is a valueless minority oppinion. Gagne was one of the biggest draws of his time, and with the possible exception of Antonio Rocca, was a great deal more 'exciting' (from a modern perspective) than almost all of his contempories.
    Not to your taste... fine, but Verne Gagne wasn't boring. He drew far too much for that.

    ...

    Now, the votes gone too far for Gagne to actually have a shot at this, but I'll spend a few minutes talking about the match. It takes place in America where Gagne was one of the most successful and dominant characters in history. Advantage Gagne.

    In the US you aren't usually allowed to hit someone with a chair because they're outside the ring, smack them with a blue crate because you feel like it or spit colorful paint in their eyes. That takes out a significant portion of Muta's offence. Advantage Gagne.

    Muta is a perfectly capable technical wrestler when he wants to be. Lou Thesz called Gagne the greatest technical wrestler he ever faced. Advantage Gagne.

    Muta showboats, Gagne doesn't. Advantage Gagne.

    Gagne drew far more in Japan that Muta ever did in the US. Advantage Gagne.

    Gagne had a far greater impact on the development of professional wrestling around the world. I've posted before how Gagne pretty much saved technical wrestling in the US helping to popularize the style, then training names like Ric Flair, Ricky Steamboat, Curt Henning, Bob Backlund almost 100 others to keep it going. Without Gagne the entire American industry would very likely have gone the way of the muscle clad bodybuilders, and an entire demographic of internet fans might never have been born. According the tdingle Muta wrote the book on heel psychology, but I'm not quite clear on exactly what elements of heel psychology he introduced that other people weren't doing twenty years previously. Advantage Gagne.

    Like I said, I'm not here because I care who wins, it's too late for that and this is nothing but a popularity contest anyway, but if people are going to knock Gagne then could they at least try and be accurate whilst doing it.

    *The following post was brought to you as a result of Lou Thesz having a completely uncompetitive first round match*
     
    #7
  8. X

    X RIP Sgt. Michael Paranzino / RIP CM

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    Seriously. What part of my post didn't you understand? I made it rather clear I'm voting against Gagne because I find him boring as shit. What part of that did you fail to understand?

    I'm sorry...I'm sorry...are you actually defending Greg Gagne? You want me to back up my thoughts? Sure thing. Greg kept getting pushed while guys like Hulk Hogan were ignored, it's what led to Hulk leaving, which is what ultimately led to the downfall of the entire company after Hogan became the focal point of the WWF destroying the territories. Greg himself was completely average in every single way as a performer, and even if he wasn't, he sure as fuck didn't deserve to be pushed over Hulk Hogan.

    What part of any of what I just said is false Gelgarin? Did Hogan not leave the company because he was being ignored? Did the AWA not fold shortly after this because of the WWF destroying the territories on Hulk Hogan's back?

    I think I made it pretty clear what I was talking about. Guys like Greg Gagne and Larry Zbysko getting huge pushes while guys like Hulk Hogan were being ignored. This isn't something I just made up, it's what happened.

    Paying your dues does not mean you deserve to be the focal point of a company. Steve Lombardi paid his dues, but I don't remember them ever centering the company around him. Hogan was without a doubt his most popular wrestler, and he ignored him for his own friends and family. Pretty sure that's the definition of nepotism.

    Except he wasn't half the draw that Hogan was, and he never would be.

    My god...did you actually just say that?

    You ARE aware that Larry Zbyzsko was HIS SON IN LAW, right? He passed over one family member for ANOTHER family member.

    Thanks for proving my point.


    And why did the AWA fold? You just said it yourself---because the WWF destroyed the territories. And HOW did the WWF do that Gelgarin? On the back of one Hulk fucking Hogan, the same megastar that Verne constantly ignored and who eventually left because of it.

    Pretty simple logic I'm using here---if Hulk never joins the WWF, there's no way they take off in popularity like they did. For all we know the AWA could have become the major North American promotion if they still had Hogan. But instead, the WWF monopolized the business and the AWA folded.


    Please direct me to one single thing I have said thus far that you can unequivocally prove to be 100% false Gelgarin. Because allI'm seeing is you calling my OPINION "lies" while presenting your own OPINION as the unabashed "truth". It doesn't work like that, nothing I have said is a "work of fiction", it's just a different take on a series of historical events. Unless you're going to tell me that Hulk Hogan never wrestled for the AWA or that Greg Gagne and Larry Zbysko never held AWA titles, no, nothing I've said is a work of fiction.


    I love old-school wrestling from the 70s-80s. Just not OLD OLD OLD school wrestling, like the kind that guys like Gagne and Dory Funk wrestled in the 60s. There are very few wrestlers from that era that can hold my attention, and Verne isn't one of them.

    Did you not read my post? I said pretty clearly that I found him boring. Key word: I. Me. As in I'm telling you MY OWN OPINION on how I personally find his work to be boring.

    Because, again, that's all we're really arguing here---opinions. Nothing I've said is a work of fiction, you just have a different take on things. That's fine, but it doesn't make your opinion any more factual or "true" than mine.

    Jesus Christ Gelgarin, I have NEVER seen you so angry. All because I don't like Verne Gagne? Calm the fuck down man, my vote only counts for one vote just like everyone else's.
     
    #8
    Hollywood Naitch likes this.
  9. Gelgarin

    Gelgarin Gentleman of the Old School

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    To do the whole tiresom semantics thing, you claimed that he 'was' boring rather than that you found him boring. That was 90% of the concession I wanted you to make on the subject.

    Yes. Having actually watched quite a lot of his stuff and having some knowledge of his record, I don't think this is really that shocking. Then again, I base my knowledge on more than internet heresay. You'll deny this, but there was one internet myth I forgot to cover that you've envoked and I can now take apart.

    There we go. Greg Gagne was pushed over Hulk Hogan. Hulk Hogan left because he was being ignored. *sigh*

    Hulk Hogan left the AWA in late 1983. You know what he'd been doing for for the rest of the year? Fueding with the AWA world champion. Repeatedly defeating the AWA world champion. Being the top face in the AWA. Being constantly prepared to become AWA world champion. Is this what you call being ignored? Did I imagine all those matches with Brockwinkle.

    At no point was Greg Gagne pushed over Hulk Hogan.

    Hogan left for the same reason everyone else left. Money. I already explained this but you totally ignored it. Vince controlled the east coast. A big terretory with a lot of people in it. He could run big shows regularly which no othe rpromotion could match. As such he could pay more. Gagne couldn't afford to meet Hogan's demands over wages/merchandise cuts, so Hogan moved to greener pastures. It's nieve to think that there's anything Gagne could have done.

    Hulk Hogan did not leave the company because he was being ignored. He wasn't being ignored. He left to make money.

    The AWA did not fold shortly after losing Hogan. It lasted another seven years. With every possible disadvantage.

    The WWF did not destroy the territories because the had Hulk Hogan. It dominated the territories because it had the best location and the most money.

    So quite a lot of what you said was false since you mention it.

    Where are you getting this crap that Greg Gagne was pushed over Hulk Hogan? He wasn't. You seem to be quite sensitive about people pointing it out right now, but you're either wrong or you're making stuff up for the sake of an argument.

    Cept in order for nepotism to be shown there has to be some kind of evidence for it that goes beyond repetition. These men were NEVER pushed ahead of Hogan. Hogan probably had the fastest and most dominant push in AWA history.

    At the time he wasn't one tenth of the draw, and I'm going to explain why using small words and a big font. Please, please, if you take nothing more from this debate, pay attention to this.

    Greg Gagne did not have his first singles feud until after Hulk Hogan had already left the promotion.

    Now explain to me again, how exactly did Verne Gagne push his own son over Hulk Hogan?

    Zbyzsko had joined the promotion and been a top guy for about eight years before it was discovered that he had taken up with Kathy Gagne, and it's no great secret that Verne was not happy with the situation. Zbyzsco has stated numerous times that Verne "hated his guts" up until the birth of the couples first child, whereupon peace was made. Zbyzsko's title win probably had more to do with him being able to pull a crowd of 70,000 people to see him work.

    I don't like your use of the pronoun "we". For all "you" know the AWA could have become the number one promotion if Hogan hadn't left, but "I" know better. It is not about having the top star, we hadn't got to the national television era yet. A Minesota based promotion would never have had the fan-base or the capital to expand to a national level. It's nice to be romantic about this and picture Hulk Hogan leading the charge across the great plains, but at the end of the day, like everything else, it almost all comes down to money.

    Well...

    Hulk Hogan was ignored - I showed he was top face, defeating the world champion and main eventing almost every card he was on.

    Greg Gagne was pushed ahead of Hogan - I showed that he was in a midcard tag team until long after Hulk Hogan had left the promotion.

    Those look like actual facts to me. As opposed to theories and heresay. Can't say I blame you, this shits all over the internet like I said, but come on... man up and admit you got a bunch of shit wrong.

    I can tell you that Greg Gagne and Larry Zbysko never held singles gold when Hulk Hogan was in the company? That good enough for you?

    Good for you.

    In my opinion: fair enough.

    In your opinion: This is relevant...how?
    I gathered from your post in the Hart/Kobashi thread that if somebody doesn't recognize the inherent quality in a match you like then they deserve contempt.

    It probably had something to do with the fact that you didn't use any of those personal pronouns in the sentence calling him one of the most boring wrestlers ever. But you've corrected the semantics, so it's fine.

    Debatable. On issues like 'is Verne Gagne entertaining' then it's two perfectly equal subjective opinions. Tweek it to 'was Verne Gagne an entertaining wrestler' and suddenly oppinion goes out of the window, it's a fact that he was.

    However; on issues like did Verne Gagne ignore Hulk Hogan in favor of his family it's not an opinion. I have facts to back me up and you don't. If you desperately want I can probably go did up some old AWA cards to prove that Hogan was the focal point of the promotion, although I'd really rather not have to.

    Holding opinions is good, and if they're controversial all the better, but it's not a free pass to shout a bunch of totally inaccurate rubbish and then justify it by saying "but this is MY OPINION"

    I think you must have mistaken me for somebody else. This is an internet wrestling forum. I just inject passion into my posts for entertainment purposes. Don't take it personally.
     
    #9
  10. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    I don't give two shits if Muta was Japanese, great, spit green stuff, and innovated pro-wrestling. He got a bad draw in this round. I take nothing away from the guy but I couldn't lay my head on a pillow at night if I didn't vote for Verne Gagne here.

    Gagne was a slightly less-deadly version of Lou Thesz. He was fucking LEGIT. He was a world champion wrestler before pro-wrestling was even a consideration. He wrestled on the USA Olympic team in 1948. He got into pro-wrestling and won the NWA championship from Eduoardo Carpentier; a man that defeated Lou Thesz in Thesz's prime. Gagne took that championship to the promotion that he former which changed pro-wrestling forever... the AWA.

    The AWA was the breeding grounds for the superstars that many of us "old dudes" grew up watching. And who bred them? Verne Gagne. He ran his own, old school type of pro-wrestling school in the coldest parts of Minnesota. Meanwhile, in order to legitimize his promotion, he awarded himself with the AWA world championship and carried it a record nine times. Meanwhile, he was breeding the stars of yesteryear and giving them the tools they needed to move onto greener pastures (the WWF, after Vince McMahon began to consolidate talent).

    Verne Gagne did more for wrestling than anyone could possibly dream of. He legit-wrestled, pro-wrestled, won world championships from some of the greatest of all-time, created a promotion, ran a school, trained legends, and lost his business to the WWF machine, otherwise he'd still be going today. Who could possibly read that resume and NOT vote for him?

    I'm not slighting Muta here, guys. He was a BEAST. But I just can't put him over Gagne, regardless of what Muta did for the business. It's apples and oranges and Verne's oranges are the size of boulders.

    Vote for Gagne.
     
    #10
  11. gd

    gd Plump, Juicy User

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    This was a tough one for me here. In the end, I had to get down to the basics. Which wrestler has better facepaint? Who has the less hairy chest? Which one has a cooler sounding name? Which one spits MIST?

    These are the points I always go to when a matchup is up in the air, and in this case it seems the questions have pointed towards the Great Muta, which seems like a great choice. With him being Asian and all I'm sure he knows his stuff.
     
    #11
    X likes this.
  12. Tech N9ne

    Tech N9ne All 6's and 7's

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    I gotta go with Muta here. He definitely was great. I wouldn't vote for many Legendary Japanese Wrestlers over Legendary North American Wrestlers. Because I am racist? No. Just because I don't think there are that many Japanese Wrestlers that could match up well. Sure there are some truly great wrestlers that came from Japan. One of them is Muta. Perhaps the best in some people's eyes.

    I give him my vote over Gagne, because not only do I prefer watching a Great Muta match over a Gagne match, I genuinely think Muta would win this match.

    Look at the picture of Verne. Can't you just see green mist all over his face and shiny bald head? I can...
     
    #12
  13. hatehabsforever

    hatehabsforever Moderator
    Staff Member Moderator

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    Too late to vote in another one because the poll had already closed. In this one, I don't mind too much because for me, this would have been a battle between one guy about whom I know very little, versus a guy about whom I know absolutely nothing. In a vote of pure ignorance, judging from what I have read over the years on wrestlezone forums, as opposed to what I personally know from firsthand experience, i would have selected Verne Gagne over Great Muta. Gagne must have been good, right? Isn't he the guy whose name keeps popping up in discussions over whether or not Sting deserves to be in the WWE Hall of Fame, as isn't Gagne a guy who made it in despite not having wrestled in WWF? Kf he undeservedly made it into the WWE Hall of Fame despite never having competed there, i guess he deserves to last at least one round in this tournament
     
    #13

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