Houston Region, Fourth Round: 3 Stages of Hell: (1) Bret Hart vs. (5) John Cena

Discussion in 'Houston Region' started by klunderbunker, Mar 18, 2011.

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Who Wins This Match

  1. Bret Hart

  2. John Cena

Multiple votes are allowed.
Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. Born To Fly

    Born To Fly Occasional Pre-Show

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    Bad, bad draw for Bret Hart here, especially in Houston. He should have been in the Calgary Region to give him a fighting chance with his fellow Canadians, but in Houston, it's a different animal, all together.

    Street Fight -- John Cena would win. Cena showed he could beat the best in street fights while Hart never really impressed me with his showing in those types of matches. Cena would wear Hart down and probably FU him through a table for the win.

    Steel Cage -- John Cena would win. Bret Hart never truly looked good in a cage match. I scoured YouTube and Hart always found a way to lose. Probably some bad booking, but Hart just didn't "wow" me. Cena, on the other hand, has had some good cage matches. He'd brutalize Hart a bit, while Hart would mount some offense and probably slap on the Sharpshooter, but Cena would get back at him and defeat him.
     
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  2. Hulk Hogan's Brother

    Hulk Hogan's Brother Stop asking me what I'm gonna do!!!

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    The relevance here is that you are trying to pass off Alex Riley as a legit opponent while totally disregarding Bad News Brown and his achievements. But then you have already conceded the Cage match to Hart which is perhaps the reason why you are doing so.

    And Bret Hart has also defeated Shawn Michaels in a ladder match. I like it how you try to paint the picture that he has only defeated Bad News Brown in a ladder match.

    So Edge defeats Cena and Bret Hart defeats Bad News Brown and HBK in a ladder match.

    OH WAIT! I almost forgot to add that Cena has defeated Edge in a TLC match. Now I checked some ladder matches and I saw that you can only use the ladder as a weapon in a ladder match. So technically Cena has never competed in a ladder match. He has competed in a TLC in which while you have to climb the ladder to win the match, you have a hell lot of weapons at your disposal to allow you to win the match.

    So Hart is 2-0 in singles ladder matches while Cena is 0-0.



    Cannot believe I missed this but Edge is great at TLC matches which are quite a bit different from ladder matches. You cannot use a chair or a table in a ladder match.

    Oh for fuck's sake I am not talking about what Cena did in the midcard. This is about Hart making a main eventer who never taps out, tap out. That is what Hart accomplished when he made Undertaker tap out. He can make Cena tap whether you like it or not.


    Cena is yet to tap out but he has not faced anyone like Hart when Hart was in his prime. Hart never lost in his prime and made even the toughest of guys tap to the Sharpshooter. Who has Cena faced who can make him tap out? A midcard version of Benoit, a past his prime Kurt Angle. Oh Wait maybe you will talk about Chris Jericho who last made a main eventer tap out in 2003! :lmao:


    How many times has Hart tapped out in his career? Yep Zero. How many guys defeated Hart from 1993 to 1996 ie in his prime. Yep as few as the guys who defeated Cena.

    And for one final time this is not about Cena and what he did in the midcard. Try not to misinterpret what I say. This is about Bret and him making a guy as invincible, if not more, as Cena tap out.


    Yes because there is no one in the roster who can make Cena tap out. Does not mean that he will not tap out to Hart.




    He clicked the handcuffs open with a key. Seriously this is your big arguement? That he got lucky and found the key to handcuffs and that is why he is going to break the sharpshooter. Honestly I hope you are joking or else this arguement is just dumb.

    He did not escape the handcuffs by just forcing them open. He merely capitalised on a mistake by Orton and found the key.

    You are yet to show why Cena should escape the sharpshooter.




    Um yes, and applying a sharpshooter for 10 minutes would do absolutely no damage to Cena's legs with which he would try to escape.:rolleyes:

    I know Cena is Superman-esque but it remains to be seen if he can fly or not.


    Well that is merely shortsigtedness on your behalf. I cannot help it if you refuse to acknowledge facts. Then let me ask you why "Superman Cena" could not defeat HBK even after an hour when no stoppage happened in that match unlike what happened in the Iron man match?


    Hart is not Angle, Edge or Jericho. He is better than all of them. And anyhow the Edge-e-Cution and Walls are both very weak submission holds. Edge has just made one or two guys tap in his entire career that too midcarders like Regal and McIntyre while Y2J has not made anyone relevant tap out since 2003.


    Angle may be the best example but it is still not close.

    As for Austin, he broke the sharpshooter for a brief moment before Hart applied it once again. It is also worth noting that this was so because Hart had already subjected Austin to a hellacious beating in a hardcore environment. Which means that he can very well dish out a hellacious beating in a hardcore environment.


    Angle has been in the main event picture is surely a good achievement. However Bret Hart was THE MAIN EVENT for three years. Angle has been a main eventer while Hart was THE main eventer. There is a difference here.

    And Benoit? He had fallen to the midcard by then. He wrestled in the US Championship match at WrestleMania did he not? Not relevant here.



    Why getting to the ropes is surely a counter but it is not one in a hardcore match in which there are no rope breaks. You have to either force open the move or counter it. The sharpshooter has never ever been countered even by the strongest of men like Diesel and Undertaker. I do not think Cena will be able to do the same.

    If I had to pick one man to just counter any move on the planet, that would be Bret Hart. Remember how he countered the sleeper hold into a pin? He can find a counter to the STF that might be unimaginable to you and me.


    Undertaker has always been in his prime. He is a character that has been designed never to tap out. Also how do you explain the fact that Undertaker has never tapped out EVER again? No shortsighted arguement of yours can explain thaat phenomena


    .

    Who won the hour long match between Cena and Michaels? Yeah that is what I thought.

    And please do not bring up Orton because Bret has never faced anyone like that in an ironman and nor does Bret wrestle anything like Orton.



    What false point? That Undertaker has tapped out to Bret. That happened.

    And yes so why hasn't Undertaker ever tapped out again? Has Cena faced anyone like Bret Hart? You are not taking every point into consideration.


    OK that is idiotic. It is not a standard for the face of the company. It is the standard for what would be the best technical wrestler of all time should be like. Yes Cena embodies most of those points but he hasn't FACED anyone who embodies all those points.

    To name someone he has not beaten. Well has he beaten someone like a 600 pound Yokozuna who was impossible to lift. Big Show is a 100 pounds lighter and a lot easier to lift.

    OH should I forget about Survivor Series 1992 when Hart made HBK tap? Or should I forget about the hour long match that HBK won against Cena as Cena was UNABLE to make HBK tap for over an hour?

    No advantage to Cena.

    No but he can do a hell lot of damage to the legs of Mr Cena by applying the Sharpshooter and the figure four around the ring post. Like I said Cena can't exactly fly.



    Yeah and Hart has not been outlasted as well. Hart lost to HBK in an Ironman match whom even Cena could not defeat in an hour on one occasion



    Yeah and Cena is going to do what no man has ever done? That is beat the piss out of Hart. And FYI no one lets you conserve energy. You do that by planning well beforehand and thinking on your feet in the match. Something that Bret can certainly do..


    HBK did not break Hart's hold. Hart let go. Not the same thing at all. And yes HBK escaped the STF quite a few times before it got applied. He has not done the same with the Sharpshooter.

    I already admitted that mistake. Cena lost to JBL in a New York Parking Lot Brawl. That was against a past his prime JBL mind you not that his prime was exactly wort noting.

    You know who is more powerful than Hart? Diesel and Austin. Both of whom have lost in this setting to Bret Hart.

    Bret is not going to use power at all. He is going make judicious use of the environment and defeat Cena. It is not that he hasn't done it earlier.

    In a TLC you say, which is a bit different from a ladder match because you can use more weapons that people would not normally use in a ladder match.


    This is false. Hart has faced a brawler in a ladder match. That is the experience that he needs. Has Cena faced the likes of Hart in a ladder match. A guy who can weaken your legs and other body parts by a methodical attack and leave you unable to climb a ladder.

    Also a TLC is a bit different from a ladder match.



    It's not always about power. Some times it is about technique and Hart is more technically proficient and not to mention much smarter than Batista.



    WOW is that true? That is why technical wrestlers like Hart, Angle and Benoit have won ladder matches. Damaging body parts by applying different and excruciating holds in a match means nothing in a ladder match, no?

    This shows how much you read my posts. I mentioned it very clearly that those were the people Edge beat BEFORE Cena beat him. AT THAT POINT, if we are to go by who Edge defeated Edge was not the best ladder match competitor of all time.

    That is certainly why JBL beat Cena cleanly in a Parking lot Brawl when Cena was in his prime. Experience is a non factor as both men have experience. Hart has faced and defeated powerful men in a streetfight. The thing is that he has never lost which Cena has.
     
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  3. Nate DaMac

    Nate DaMac Fuck erbody but me

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    Ok rattlesnake I'm not going to quote your post since there is only one point of it I wanna debunk and that's way too much deleting to do.

    You said something among the lines of how Cena won in a TLC match and not a Ladder match as if there is actually a substantial difference. Don't worry people, there's not. You see, no legit Ladder matches end in DQs and I don't recall it ever happening unless maybe Russo was booking, and since that's not the case here, I'm sure you could use weapons other than a Ladder. The first WM triangle match between the Dudleyz, Hardyz, and E&C while widely being considered a TLC Match actually wasn't. It was a Ladder match but somehow Tables were involved. There is your precedent.

    Furthermore in the 3 Stages Of Hell match between Triple H and Shawn Michaels the final fall (a Ladder match) did see the use of several weapons, including tables and chairs. As a matter of fact the decision in the match came after Shawn took a big bump from the ladder onto a bunch of tables on the outside.

    Since the first fall of the match is a Street Fight, it is a pretty safe assumption that the weapons used will likely still be at ringside during the final fall. Shit this could even be used to turn your logic against you. Hart only won Ladder matches with the Ladder being the only weapon involved while Cena won one with tables and chairs involved as well and since there is almost a 100% chance of weapons being involved in the third fall, it's advantage Cena.
     
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  4. Hulk Hogan's Brother

    Hulk Hogan's Brother Stop asking me what I'm gonna do!!!

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    Fair point Nate but I do not think that a DQ is neccesary.

    I seem to remember that there was a Chairs Match between Undertaker and Batista in which Batista used a low blow on Undertaker and the match was restarted. I can see something similar happening here as well if Cena or Hart try to use a weapon other than the ladder on each other.

    Also the HHH vs HBK ladder match or fall is the only occasion in which weapon were used. Here is the video of the two most recent ladder matches in the WWE.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yhq_vIQgGRc

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAQ4iRgENqg


    The matches are HBK vs Y2J and John Morrison vs Sheamus. As you can see that in both cases no weapons other than ladders are used. This was the trend of ladder matches when they first started out and the trend continues. If it is not the case then how can you distinguish it from a TLC match?

    And finally I think that the trend should be followed in a 3 stages of hell match too because say if the first fall was a Streetfight and then the next fall a TLC match and the final fall was a standard match you would expect both participants to follow the rules of a standard match, wouldn't you?

    I think that some clarification from KB or some of the mods is required.
     
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  5. Big Nick Dudley

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    So, Houston is a not-so-great draw for The Hitman. Got it. Now, explain to me how Houston is a great draw for John Cena?

    Oh, and if you're going to give me the "Bret was anti-American bullshit, save it. We're talking about these guys in their absolute prime, and during Hart's prime, he was the most over guy on the planet, U.S. or anywhere else.

    A No D.Q. win and two Cage match victories over Diesel are not impressive? Seriously?

    Wow..convincing stuff right here.

    :wtf:

    If you want to vote Cena, good for you, but to say Bret Hart never looked good in a Cage match is beyond ridiculous, and flat-out inaccurate. I'm guessing Summerslam 1994 (vs. Owen Hart), In Your House 6 (vs. Diesel), and the MSG show from August of 1993 (vs. Yokozuna) didn't show up in your Youtube search. Hard to believe, but that's the only way I can buy into your theory of Hart not looking good in Cage matches. I'm guessing you didn't watch much wrestling while Bret was on top. Could be wrong about that, but that's my guess.

    This is probably all you needed to say.
     
    #55
  6. Born To Fly

    Born To Fly Occasional Pre-Show

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    Cena is WAY over many places, especially Houston. He put on a good show at Wrestlemania XXV in Reliant Stadium and his entrance was one of the best at a Wrestlemania in a long time. People can knock Cena all the way, but he's a tremendous showman.

    Sure, Hart won a No D.Q. match against Diesel, but it wasn't brutal. Cena has been in some bloodbaths that are more convincing in terms of a street fight than anything. What Cena did to Umaga, JBL, Batista and others in those types of matches was amazing. Hart did nothing to Diesel in that Survivor Series No D.Q. match that made me say, "Look at this guy here. He can inflict some pain."

    I watched Bret Hart's cage match against Owen Hart. It was good, but in my opinion, wasn't incredible. He got some outside interference with The Undertaker in his match with Diesel, so he didn't go at it totally alone and against Yokozuna, eh. Again, it was all right, but nothing incredible. No one really looked good against Yokozuna, but Hart didn't help himself with that cage match.

    I fully expect you to fire back with your own responses and shred mine apart, but we all have our own opinions. Mine is that in THESE matches, John Cena could brutalize Bret Hart.
     
    #56
  7. LSN80

    LSN80 King Of The Ring

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    No, Ive never done that. I simply said its "revisitionist history" when you try to cover for the fact that you've made numerous factual errors with the "Well, Alex Riley doesn't count" logic. Why doesn't he? First Cena was 0-1 in cage matches, then 1-1, because beating Alex Riley doesn't count.

    The reason I conceded the cage match, if you would bother reading, is that i think this would go to a third fall, and I dont see Hart winning the Street Fight. Would you rather I reversed the order and gave Cena the Cage match? It doesn't matter to me, this is a close matchp going to three stages. Period.
    Nooooo. I said several times that he defeated a "before his prime" HBK in a ladder match. It was HBK's first ladder match, and he was in the early stages of his career as a single's competitor, while Hart was in his prime. I was quite clear about that. Again, dont let the facts get in the way of your argument. :rolleyes:

    Again, where are yu getting your facts from? Dude, you know NOTHING about wrestling history. Cena WON that match. How many matches are you going to screw up here. Cena FU'd Edge through 2 tables to win the match!
    Since when? Ive seen multiple ladder matches where tables and chairs were involved! Take E&C vs. the Dudley's vs the Hardys. What did the Dudley's use? Tables. What did E&C use? Chairs. It was a triangle ladder match. There are NO DQ's in a ladder match. Again, dont let facts get in the way. Ive seen plenty of ladder matches in my day and Ive never seen a DQ, a restart, and Ive seen plenty of interference and other weapons used. Get out of here with that bullcrap. Your arguments just keep getting weaker.
    So what youre saying is he fought in a HARDER environment then Hart ever did? Got it. Again, No DQ's in a ladder match, so Cena would have the advantage in using other weapons in a ladder match, where Hart never did.

    No, hes not, and now you're just embarasing yourself. He won his only ladder match, in a tougher environment.

    Since when? How did the HHH/HBK 3 stages of Hell LADDER match end? With HBK going through a TABLE. There's precedence in just those two matches and many more. There are no DQ's in a ladder match. Find me one.


    Ummm...then where did the "Cena tapped plenty of times" come from in your last post? That was in the midcard. I love the "whether you like it or not" argument, because it means you have nothing to back it up. Cena hasn't tapped in his prime, and he won't to Hart. Cena, being the stronger of the two, would be more likely to make Hart tap.



    The "past his prime" Kurt Angle that chased Cena for half a year, then immediately went to Smackdown and WON the World Title, then defended it multiple times against the friggin Undertaker? Got it. How is that past his prime, pray tell?

    The Jericho that won 3 World Titles since his return is the one Im talking about. Just so were clear. Another man in his prime.

    Ive never called Hart a weak opponent, have I? That would be no.

    You made the claim that Cena "tapped out a handful of times." I pointed out that it was when he was in the midcard. That's all. There's never been anyone as invincible in their prime as Cena. Until you show me Cena tapping in his prime, this is speculation on your part, and nothing more. I like facts. Fact: Cena has never tapped, or quit in his prime. Prove me wrong.

    Dude, are you really that dense? I never said he broke the handucuffs off. Remember that pesky thing called facts I keep talking about that keeps eluding you? Were there again. ;) If Cena didnt quit while handcuffed, why would he quit to a HUMAN hold?

    And my argument is that Cena would be able to power out of the sharpshooter, or that he wouldnt let Bret put it on him. Cena does have the strength advantage and all. Seeing how all the greats of his generation from Angle to Edge to Jericho to Orton to HHH to HBK tapped to Cena's STFU, Id say the chaces of Hart tapping to Cena are greater.

    Never said that. Again, youre being rediculous. He was in the handcuffs for approximately five minutes while Orton wailed away on him. I didnt say he broke them, I said he "didnt quit". Notice the difference. Again, sorry to be so pesky with actual facts.

    Which would never happen. One of two things would. Either Cena would overpower Hart like he has EVERYONE else, or he wouldn't get caught in the hold to begin with. Youre assuming som ething would happen although any and all evidence says that he won't.


    What facts have you presented? Theres no shame in losing to one of the all time greats. Both Hart and Cena lost to HBK. Th difference? Cena made HBK tap out weeks earlier. Hart didn't. Those are what we call facts. Cena would make Hart tap to the STFU sooner then the other way around.

    Yes, it is. Theyre different wrestlers but Angle is as tehnical as it gets. Angle was more of a suplex machine but he picks body parts apart, same as Hart. He also made HBK tap out, when Hart couldn't. Notice the trend?

    It was a hellacious beating BOTH ways, and still Austin broke the hold. Someone has. Noone has broken the STFU, other then by getting to the ropes. And this was an upper mid-card Austin who broke the sharpshooter, which is worth noting.I never said that Hart couldnt fight in a hardcore environment. I simply said Cena was better, then provided proof.

    Angle was the main event as well. He won his first World Title in 2000, and his last in 2006. Thats SEVEN years, last time I checked. The difference is Angle was in the main event picture longer. Youre right, theres a big difference.

    He's far more relevant then Bad News Brown. Thats the man you want to use as a testament to Hart's big ladder match prowess, and Benoits not relevant? Please. There was noone tougher then Benoit, certainly not Bad News Brown.

    That's where youre just plain wrong. Cena has countered EVERY submission move he's ever been in, to one of his own most times. I was simply pointing out that noone has done that to Cena. Cena would pick Hart up the same way he has with everyone else whose applied a submission to his legs, and once again, we'd hear about the great strength of John Cena.

    And Cena, as Ive said, has countered every submission he's ever been in. Thats the thing with John. He's never needed the ropes for a break. Hes powered out of every submission hold. You might be right that Hart would know a counter, but could he outmuscle Cena? The sleeper isnt exactly the STFU, it works over far more of the body. I know what youre saying, and Hart knew counters for most. But Cena has, in the end, outmuscled everyone he's wrestled. Men much bigger. He made Big Show tap, twice, to the STFU.
    Hart might know a counter, but all the counters in the world dont matter when youre in the STFU. Noone has ever broken it. Hart's sharpshooter has been broken. Advantage: Cena.


    There's nothing shortsighted about 7 years of being in the main event and never tapping out, and generally reversing every submission hold he's ever been in to one of his own. 7 years is a long time.


    Ive answered these questions time and again. No two wrestlers are the same. Ive taken Bret Hart into consideration, time and again. That's why I've noted this to be a close matchup, which you idiotically dismissed as "two straight falls for Hart."

    Have you taken into consideration John Cena? Has Hart faced anyone the likes of Cena? Heck no. Austin and Diesel aren't Cena, and they certainly weren't booked that way. They were much more beatable. The closest comparison to Hart, for the fifteenth time, is Angle, who is a great technical wrestler. If you dont like the answer, say so, but stop with asking the same questions 15 times when Ive answered them over and over. I dont care about Taker here,Ive addressed the point, you simply don't like the answer because you have no response. Hes NOT in this match, nor is he John Cena.

    Big advantage to Cena here. This was the early days of HBK, before his prime. Cena beat him in the main event of Wrestlemania, where HBK beat Hart in the main event of Wrestlemania. You see that? Cena over HBK, in his prime, by submission. HBK over Hart, on the same stage. Cena beat him the month before by submission. You've said this once before about HBK. Stop repeating yourself, it makes you sound weak.

    And how exactly is he going to ground Cena long enough to apply the Sharpshooter? Cena has a better chance of grounding Hart and applying the STFU then Hart does the SS or the Figure Four. Cena's not just going to "lay down" and let Hart apply the move. Get out of here with this crap. Cena wouldn't be trapped in the move for long, if at all. He never is.

    How is that not being outlasted when he...lost the Ironman match? Thats the definition of being outlasted! The difference is Cena and HBK's match wasn't an Ironman match. Hart and HBK's was. Different match type= different strategy.

    The recent precedent was, (emphasis on recent so ypou dont try to pull out an event 3-5 years prior), was Cena beat HBK THREE WEEKS earlier by submission, on a bigger stage, for a bigger prize. A Non-title match means alot less then a title match. Again, facts getting in the way of your flawed logic. ;)


    It would take a substantial beating to win the street fight. Neither man is going down easy. How many times do I have to say it? Man, you are thick. It would take a substantial beating for either to go down, except Cena is the better brawler. Im not saying its not an environment that Hart hasn't, and couldn't, thrive in. I just think its a scenario that favors Cena.


    You can't escape a hold before its been applied. And yes, several times in the IronMan match Hart tried to apply the sharpshooter before he was finally able to at the 59:00 minute or so mark. He escaped having the STFU applied, but not the hold itself. There's a big difference between escaping having a hold applied, and escaping one on you.

    You made that assertion in your last post, how could you have acknowledged it? Unless someone else pointed it out to you as well. Like I said, all brawls are difficult, and everyone comes out of it beat up. There's no shame in losing to a an who was nothing but a brawler in JBL in that environment.

    You know what Hart is going to use? Wow. Hart brawled as well. You don't think Cena has made judicious use of the environment before? How about the pipe to JBL? Using the handcuffs on Orton with the STFU? Using the ring ropes on Umaga with the STFU? Even tying Batista down with duct tape? Cena is a smart brawler, and Ive just shown several environmental examples of how Cena defeated opponents. He'ld do the same to Bret.


    If you seriously want to compare Bad News Brown to John Cena in terms of ability, theres no help for you. Cena has faced a better ladder match competitor in Edge in a ladder match, and he beat him, despite interference. The fact that its simply a ladder match favors Cena more because he's been in the most hardcore of ladder matches, and come out on top. That's more then sufficient. Can Hart say the same? No. There's no dq's in a ladder match, no restarts, etc. Theres been plenty of interference, as well as chairs and tables.


    So smart then instead of focusing on winning his Ironman match against Shawn Michaels, he let himself get caught of guard because he lost focus due to anger? Id say thats not very smart. Youre right, its not always about power, but thats what Cena has used to reverse holds and apply his own. Its what he would use here, if he got caught at all.


    No, you just said those were some of the people Edge had beaten. Do you remember how the match was billed. It was Edge's match, he never loses! Cena is out of his element! Yet Cena adapted quickly, in his first ever ladder match, and won the match at that. Ill take that over Hart beating a before his prime HBK and Bad News Brown.

    Experience is a factor in that Cena, as Ive shown, has used the element over and again to win street fights and matches like it. He's 2-1 in cage matches, and only lost 1 because SEVEN men interfered. And he beat the best ladder match competitor of all time in his hometown with his career and the title on the line. It doesnt get more meaningful then that.

    No offense, because I like you, but your facts are getting more misconstrued and your arguments weaker in the same way Hart's lead is slippng.
     
    #57
  8. Little Jerry Lawler

    Little Jerry Lawler Sigmund Freud On Ritalin And Roids

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    The parts of rattlesnake's post that are ridiculous that Undertaker's prime has been his entire career. I would say his prime was 2006-2009. Also, his deeming Cena making Benoit irrelevant when he used two midcarders as a reasoning of Bret going over in a ladder match.
     
    #58
  9. The 1-2-3 Killam

    The 1-2-3 Killam Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Two of the all-time greats in this business. Unfortunately for Hart, Cena is somewhat of an expert when it comes to Street Fights. So that's one victory in Cena's favor. I know The Excellence of Execution can get his hands dirty when he has to (remember all the blood pouring off Austin?), but Cena just shouldn't lose a Street Fight. As for the Steel Cage, I think I'd give it to Bret. I think he could knock Cena down long enough to escape the cage, but really it could go either way. Which leaves the ladder match... Honestly, Cena's been through hell with Edge in ladder matches, but Hart has done his fair share of hardcore wrestling. So it's really a toss up... So for me, it just came down to who SHOULD win this match. Hart was a key player in the old WWF, but did he ever CARRY the company? Was he ever the mouthpiece? Was he ever the face of professional wrestling. He may have been more talented as a wrestler, and he may have put over dozens of guys in his days, but he's also brought a ton of controversy to the business. Say what you will, but I think Cena should take this one. It's extremely close though...I sort of feel bad about my decision.
     
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  10. ThUnDeRpHoEnIx

    ThUnDeRpHoEnIx Proud Team Bring It Member

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    Come on Bret hold on.

    btw Internet Arguements.Great Fun to read :D.

    And LSN I'd just like to point out in your post(its to long to quote)that no ones been more invinicble then Cena in there prime.I think Hulk Hogan takes that prize.Hulk was basically invincle the whole time he was in the main event and only lost to Ultimate Warrior because everyone thought Warrior would be the next big thing.
     
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  11. Hulk Hogan's Brother

    Hulk Hogan's Brother Stop asking me what I'm gonna do!!!

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    Oh boy these word forts are getting tedious but I will reply one last time because I feel that almost every point has been covered.

    Oh I remember that triple threat ladder match. But that match was held before the inception of a TLC match. Since then those matches have been rechristened into a TLC match.

    And yes, please show me those "plenty of ladder matches" where other weapons have been used. There have been NO DQ's but then that might be because only ladders have been used as weapons. Even in the last three ladder matches that have been held in the WWE, only ladders have been used as weapons.

    And yes the arguement actually makes a lot of sense. If you can use other weapons in a ladder match then how do you distinguish it from a TLC match? If you mention ladder match then you need it to be a LADDER match don't you?

    TLC's are different from ladder matches. It is not going to help Cena here.

    I know what happened in that match. However if you see match types have evolved over the years. At that point I do not think that there had been singles TLC matches in the WWE. That might be the case why tables were used in that match.

    Like I said, you need to distinguish a TLC match from a ladder match. To cite a recent example in the Miz vs Jerry Lawler match was a TLC match. All the three weapons namely tables, ladders and chairs were used in the match up. However when Sheamus and John Morrison faced off just weeks later in a Ladder match at the TLC PPV only ladders were used as weapons.


    I said that Cena had tapped a handful of times, meaning to say that he had tapped very few times. I never said that they were not in the midcard.

    And FYI, Hart never tapped in his prime either. And also, it is not always the stronger man who makes his opponent tap out. Hart has made me stronger than Cena, more invincible than Cena tap out. Stronger men have not made Hart tap. Hart has the better chance of making Cena tap.


    So are you telling me that wrestlers do not win World Titles past their prime? Is that why Sting just won the World Title in TNA?

    Prime is measured by the number of victories you have. Kurt lost a lot in 2005. His prime was 2003 when he was going toe to toe with Brock Lesnar and was the franchise player of Smackdown and holding the World Title on a regular basis.

    Also Kurt defeated Undertaker ONCE in 2006. How is that "multiple"?


    You were talking about Cena making submission specialists tap out. Just so we are clear, Jericho is no submission specialist. Because he hasn't made anyone relevant tap out to the Walls since 2003.

    Obviously you choose to ignore the character of the Undertaker. He is just not supposed to give up. He is supposed to be oblivious to pain. He cannot die and he cannot age. Undertaker has always been pretty invincible. Yet Bret Hart has made him tap. I cannot understand why you try to disregard never tapping out once in 16 years as an irrelavant fact.

    And like I mentioned there is no one who can make Cena tap out. More specifically there is no Bret Hart.

    What does a FUCKING handcuff have to do with quitting? Mick Foley did not quit when he was handcuffed and subjected to 16 chairshots by The Rock. He got up after Triple H dished out similar punishment to him. By that logic Mick Foley should have never tapped out in his career. Yet he has done so quite a few times.

    Seriously this arguement is really dumb. Why should he quit after just being handcuffed and subjected to shots from the kendo stick? After all more inferior men have not quit from similar if not more intense punishment. But they have tapped out to submission holds. And Bret's sharpshooter is one of the best submission holds in the business.

    And finally Bret has made bigger and stronger men than Cena tap out to the Sharpshooter. Diesel, Undertaker, Yokozuna have all succumbed to Bret. Yet Cena who is inferior in strength to all three will not succumb, or so you say.:rolleyes:


    No, you said he "escaped" from the handcuffs. This is what you said.

    Seriously? If you have a key then a handcuff is more difficult to escape than a submission manouvre that no one has ever escaped? There is no "key" to escaping the sharpshooter and Cena is not escaping.


    You know something that hasn't happened? A person breaking Bret's sharpshooter when Bret was the FACE of the company. That would be from 1993 to 1996.


    Bret Hart has made HBK tap out.


    No Kurt Angle has NEVER worked on body parts. The reason is that his submission hold is a very easy one to apply and also the easiest was in which you could cause damage to an ankle. Kurt's style was suplexing you till he could apply his hold. He is a very different wrestler from HBK.

    Again Bret made HBK tap and HBK has defeated Angle too. Bret did not defeat HBK after he lost to him but that is because they did not ever have a match again until Survivor Series 1997 when HBK screwed Bret.


    Your "proof" is the number of matches. His experience of fighting JBL is not going to come in handy when he faces Bret Hart. Bret Hart has faced brawlers, maybe slightly inferior ones in a streetfight before but he has faced people of a similar style.

    And yes you were lying about Cena facing Angle in a NO DQ match as well. I cannot find the match anywhere and I refuse to acknowledge the fact till you give me proof.


    When has Angle been the face of the company? That would be just one year in 2003. When was Angle the biggest heel in the company? That would be NEVER.

    Bret was the face of the company from 1993 to 1996. He was the top heel in 1997. Kurt Angle does not compare to Bret Hart.


    That is total WWE markdom. At that point you are talking about Benoit meant nothing in the company he was working in. Bad News Brown meant quite a lot in the company he was working in.

    That's like writing off AJ Styles just because he works for TNA.

    The moves that Cena has countered have been countered by a lot of men. The Ankle Lock gets countered in every Kurt Angle match. Same with the Crossface and Benoit. The Walls are a very weak finisher and are pretty easy to counter.

    Bret's sharpshooter was countered just once and that too not completely. Cena has never been put in such a move by a submission specialist as great as Hart.



    7 years is a long time but 21 years is an even longer time. Thrice as long. What is shortsightedness is your blatant refusal to acknowledge Undertaker's achievement of not tapping out once in 17 years and tapping out just once in 21 years. If there is one guy who has been built up more invincibly than Cena, it is The Undertaker. And Bret has made him tap.

    Your answer is incorrect and biased. Undertaker is just as strong as Cena, just as invincible and can withstand as much pain, if not more.

    Angle is no Hart. If he is comparable to Hart then a midcard Austin is also comparable to a main event version of Cena. Yes the gulf is that large as I have already mentioned.


    False. That is not HBK's prime. HBK's prime was 1996 not 2007 as you have acknowledged yourself.

    Bret grounded everyone in his career without exception. That would include a 600 pound guy whom few could lift( Yokozuna) and an undead man whom no one else has ever made to submit(Undertaker).

    So Cena being defeated by Michaels is not being outlasted but Bret being defeated by the same man is bein outlasted? I smell markdom here.

    And how the fuck does it matter if the match was not an ironman match. If anything it is easier to win a normal match than an ironman match. The fact remains. HBK outlasted Cena.


    And the fact that Bret never got a rematch and the fact that he got screwed out of the company when he got one escapes you as well.


    You have no proof. Number of matches mean nothing here. Cena has also lost clean in a streetfight to a very inferior competitor unlike Bret.


    Read my post when I reply to Funkay. I admitted my mistake.

    Either way JBL is a very much inferior to Hart, who, btw has never lost in a hardcore match.


    It's not just a comparison of ability. It is also a proof of experience. Whichever way you cut it, Hart has been in more ladder matches than Cena. And sorry the stipulation clearly says ladder matches, not TLC matches. Whatever ladder matches there were in which the competitors used weapons other than the ladder itself were before the inception of the TLC match.

    The introduction of the TLC match has made such a distinction neccesary.


    Wrong again. Here is my post.

    The prior word is mentioned very clearly. I do not really care how that match was built because there is proof that he was not a great ladder match performer prior to defeating Cena.



    Why? More does not neccesarily mean better. Is the person knowing more moves the winner of the match everytime? And you still haven't shown me the video of Kurt Angle participating in a No Dq match against John Cena. Not that Angle is anything like Hart but still it would mean that even Cena has not faced the guy who you are touting as the best available example.

    Hart has beaten brawlers in a hardcore environment and main eventers like Diesel and a Stone Cold Steve Austin who was close to main eventing. Cena on the other hand has lost to JBL in his prime who is considerably inferior by comparison.

    And let me remind you that the Cage match Cena lost, 7 men interfered against Cena but they interfered against Sheamus too. Both guys were in an equivalent situation. Yet the invincible Cena lost.

    Hart is Cena's equal in every way and in some ways even better than him. There is no reason not to vote for him.
     
    #61
  12. Hulk Hogan's Brother

    Hulk Hogan's Brother Stop asking me what I'm gonna do!!!

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    Well that is wrong. Cena has been in more streetfights but more does not always mean better. Cena has lost to JBL in a streetfight too, clean if I may add. Hart has never lost in a hardcore environment. We choose to remember Hart as a great technical wrestler but that does not mean that he cannot brawl with the best. To some extent it is a bit like Hulk Hogan. We choose to remember him as just a slow moving superhero but he was a good technical wrestler too, as his work in Japan proves.


    Well like Nick said this will be Cena's second match on the trot against Bret Hart. There is no saying what condition his body parts will be in after being subjected to such a methodical assault, the likes of which Cena has never faced.


    Like I said earlier it was a TLC match. Since there have been TLC matches ladder matches have featured only ladders as weapons. Again Bret stands a better chance in my opinion because of all the work he would have already done on Cena's legs.

    Also Edge is nothing like Bret Hart in the ring. This should not be used for comparison, in my opinion.

    Yes he did. From 1993 to 1996 in some of the darkest days of the company. The roster was possibly one of the weakest that the WWF has ever seen and yet Hart ensured that WWF got steady ratings and kept their necks above WCW. Not a fact to be scoffed at because WCW had a Hulk Hogan and other huge stars like Sting, Ric Flair and also Randy Savage towards the latter part.

    He always generated a solid crowd reaction both as a face as well as a heel. That is the main job of mic work. To build up feuds and generate reactions. Bret could do that well enough regardless of his mic skills. Even if he wasn't the most talented guy out there he was, at the very least, dependable.


    That would be a NO due to the presence of Hulk Hogan but Cena obviously benefits from the era. Cena has no one to compete against and yet there are certain people who do not like him. In the presence of a Rock or a Steve Austin in a rival company as big as WCW I have no problem in saying that he would not have been the face of the company. At least no one hated Bret or chanted "Bret sucks" or anything of that sort when he replaced Hulk Hogan as the torchbearer of the WWF. That means people accepted the change. Can you say that about Cena?
     
    #62
  13. Find'er Woo'er Ryder

    Find'er Woo'er Ryder :( lost ma Mayhem Title

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    Rattlesnake

    There are no rules in a ladder match. So if John Cen wants to beat the hell out of Bret Hart with a Chair or throw him through a table, then he can. Just because it's just a plan ladder match doesn't mean there won't be other weapons in it. Edge won his first MITB with a steel chair back at Wrestlemania. And it is a Money In The Bank LADDER Match.

    I'm giving this round to John Cena. He can brawl better than Hart can. Steel Cage match would probably go to John Cena as well due to the fact that he is Super Cena. Hart maybe good back in the day but when he got back into the ring at SummerSlam against the Nexus he looked horrible. Ladder match goes to Cena as well.
     
    #63
  14. Nate DaMac

    Nate DaMac Fuck erbody but me

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    This isn't a TLC match nor is it a Ladder match, it is a 3 Stages Of Hell match. The last time a match type like this was held(to my knowledge) was Shawn Michaels vs Triple H where in the third fall(the Ladder match) tables and chairs WERE used.

    So yes, while traditional Ladder matches usually involve only the Ladder as a weapon, the version of the Ladder match used as the 3rd fall in a 3 Stages Of Hell match always sees the use of tables and chairs, which is more comparable to a TLC Match which Cena has won against probably the greatest competitor in that match type. Advantage: Cena.
     
    #64
  15. Little Jerry Lawler

    Little Jerry Lawler Sigmund Freud On Ritalin And Roids

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    1. He didn't say Angle defeated Undertaker multiple times. If you read correctly, he said Angle defended it multiple times which he did.

    2. Where's the proof that Undertaker has tapped out to Bret Hart? Haven't found any evidence of that but there is evidence of Angle making Undertaker tap.

    3. I don't care who Edge faced when he was in ladder matches. He still was a great ladder match performer. He won all the time. Cena defeated a much better wrestler in ladder matches than Bret Hart has.

    4. So Cena is inferior to Hart because he lost a Street Fight to a former main eventer but you praise Hart because he beat a guy who was a midcarder?
     
    #65
  16. Big Nick Dudley

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    I knew it was only a matter of time before someone brought this garbage into the mix. He was likez, real good, back in da day, but, I only know him as a cripple and stuff. It's a ridiculous argument.

    If you want to vote for Cena because, A. You like him more, and/or B. You no nothing about Hart, fine. Just say so, and don't bring up his send-off run as if it has any sort of impact on his career.

    I voted Hart for several reasons, mainly because I think he's better. The Hitman took on, and beat, big, strong guys in his day, all of the time. John Cena is an animal, no doubt. However, Hart has dealt with wrestlers like Cena before. I'm not talking about win/loss record, I'm talking about big, strong brawlers.

    On the other hand, Cena hasn't faced anyone as smart, in the ring, as Bret Hart. Not blaming Cena, they just don't make 'em like Bret anymore. He was methodical, calculating, and downright ruthless. Cena hasn't faced someone who would come in with the gameplan of a Bret Hart. Bret knew how to take out each and every opponent he ever faced, and I have no reason to believe differently when it comes to Cena.

    Vote however you like, but please, keep the Bret's old and crippled junk to yourself.
     
    #66
  17. Find'er Woo'er Ryder

    Find'er Woo'er Ryder :( lost ma Mayhem Title

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    I know Brett Hart is great. But it is 2011 and he can't wrestle NOW. He is too old. Cena would go easy on him and still beat Hart.
     
    #67
  18. Con T.

    Con T. Yaz ain't enough, I need Fluttershy

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    Hi There!

    [​IMG]

    Please, don't give me that Cena hasn't beaten someone that's known as a methodical wrestler. Hell, Trip's nickname is the Cerebral Assassin. Cerebral, I say, not Temporal, nor the Hypothalamus Assassin. Trips may not be a submission specialist, but he has a methodical sense to him in the ring. Sure, over time his ring style has evolved to rely more on high impact offense, but Trips is known for working a style similar to Harley Race. Hell, he modeled his entire offense after Harley Race, who himself was a pretty methodical man. And Cena beat Trips pretty handily, on the greatest stage of them all.

    I'm going with Cena here. Everyone's been focusing on how well Bret does against strong wrestlers, but that isn't going to be the problem for Hart. The real issue for Bret is, he doesn't always fare well against wrestlers with high charisma. Cena is as charismatic a guy in the ring, and really, Bret worked in an era in which the best possible charismatic name was Shawn Michaels. Steve Austin has more charisma, and even as a mid card heel, Austin took Hart to the limit. This one goes to Cena, for me.
     
    #68
  19. Big Nick Dudley

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    He sure did. However, that doesn't change the fact that HHH and Bret Hart are almost nothing alike.

    Also, John Cena has beaten HHH one time in singles competition. Once. Triple H has beaten John Cena twice. Not a big deal, at all, but if we're going to compare HHH and Bret Hart, the win/loss record between HHH and Cena is somewhat important.

    If you want to vote based on charisma, fine. But are you honestly giving Cena the nod, in a hypothetical contest, because he's charismatic? I'm sorry, in a match like this, that means nothing. Voting for who you like more is fine, but don't add that into an actual match.

    Took him to the limit..and lost. In their most famous encounter, Austin literally passed out from the pain Bret caused.
     
    #69
  20. afromania

    afromania TELL ME YOU DID NOT JUST SAY THAT!

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    I figured I should get a written vote here in case this goes to a tie. So I gotta go with Cena in this one cause he's my favourite wrestler. That's pretty much it.

    If they had this match ten times, Cena would win 5 and so would Bret. This match would be as close as the voting indicates but I gotta give it to my boy Cena.
     
    #70
  21. dude_d_dude

    dude_d_dude The Showstopper

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    Thank goodness Hart went through, all the idiots that said "ZOMG HE'S A STROKE VICTIM AND TOO OLD" got exactly what you deserved.
    To see good ol' SuperCena booted out of here.
     
    #71

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