Houston Region, Boston Subregion: First Round: (1) Bret Hart vs. (32) Kenta Kobashi

Discussion in 'Houston Region' started by klunderbunker, Feb 22, 2011.

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Who Wins This Match

  1. Bret Hart

  2. Kenta Kobashi

Multiple votes are allowed.
Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. Mr. Truth

    Mr. Truth Real American Hero

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    Like I said, I understand you like Hart, but then explain to me why these are fictitious matches?

    Moot can mean "of little to no practical value." That definition seems to work here. Your vote, as in the act of you picking Bret Hart, as opposed to the tallymark counted for Bret Hart, has little to no practical value since you didn't take any time to learn about Kobashi as a wrestler.

    First off, this isn't a grammar tournament. If it is, the semicolon would dominate all. Anyway, as for two spaces as a period, it isn't wrong, it's just an older way of doing things. When people used typewriters, every character had the same width. Two spaces helped create a more visible sentence break. When I was a kid growing up, it was at the verge of everyone having a computer in their house, and the two-space was still the standard and that is what I was taught. Plus, they make papers that have a page count but not a word count a bit longer.
     
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  2. Remix

    Remix Is a thin rope

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    Ah, Mr Fearbefore, I've been expecting you. Quick question, where did I alledge that Bret Hart was a good worker? Sure he's overrated as hell, but he was if nothing else a damn safe worker, something Kobashi can't claim.

    X, you shit on guys like Otunga for being someone who's going to inadvertantly hurt someone in the ring eventually because of his inexperience. Kobashi's going to hurt someone inadvertantly because he's stiff as a board.

    Also, I'm going to go ahead and skip the paragraphs where you talk down Bret for his formulaic matches.

    I'll take your gauntlet. (The rest of this post will be written after watching the video)


    [/QUOTE]

    Good match. Technically outstanding. However I was not really entertained by it and (for the record) that's got NOTHING to do with my opinion of Kobashi's ability to work. My knock on Kobashi's ability to work does NOT stem from how good he is in the ring. I know that he's a good wrestler, I haven't seen enough matches to say how good he is (and that match has done nothing to persuade me to go out and do so), but I listen to the hype about him. It stems from him being as stiff as the beams used to make the ring. You're not working if you're intentionally hurting your opponent. THAT'S why I'm calling him a shitty worker.

    We're using two different defintions of the word work. Yours is the commonly used definition; mine is if the guy's hurting his opponent more than he has to. I share Bret Hart's opinion on chops and stiff shots in general.

    Debatable, as Bret went 22 years without injuring another wrestler which (and if I'm wrong feel free to destroy my entire arguement by pointing it out) I somehow doubt Kobashi did.

    Couldn't care less about that if I'm honest. Whether a wrestler makes a company money has no bearing on whether I enjoy watching them. I mean Justin Gabriel was part of a company drawing ratings roughly the same size as WWE, despite being a far smaller production and wrestled infront of 20,000 people. Does that have any impact on whether he's better than Bret Hart?

    Am I REALLY talking shit X? I mean, you (or at least I think it was you, I can't find the thread at the moment) defended Kobashi's chops when Sly shat on them for being "weak pussy slaps" so it's not like we differ on whether or not he's stiff. You just don't think that it makes him a poor worker, which I do.

    X, the same logic you use when criticising Barrett in the ring is the same logic I'm using to criticise Kobashi. Only difference is that when it looks like Kenta's going to hurt someone with his finisher, it's because he's hit them with the Burning Lariat hard enough to concuss them, or because dropping someone on their head with virtually no protection is a REALLY bad idea.
     
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  3. Bernkastel

    Bernkastel Reaper of Miracles
    E-Fed Mod

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    I don't normally get involved in matchups like this [I usually just flip a coin] but this time I'm going to attempt to analyize as best as I can.

    Comparing the styles of Western pro wrestling to Puro is difficult. The Western style tends to portray matches that are legit [two people beating the fuck out of each other because they hate each other] as opposed to Puro which tends to portray matches that are competition based [two people beating the fuck out of each other because they respect each other.]

    -A note about Puro-

    From what I've seen, most Puro matches are tons more unrealistic, over the top, and theatrical than anything in the WWE. Am I really supposed to believe that a guy can take a piledriver in the ring, then one of the outside, and finally one through a table and still come back to win the match? Total plotkai... not buying it...

    I'll be ignoring this when I do the analysis.... so those of you who want to argue Kobashi's endurence and how he would just magically brush off everything that Hart throws at him, just remember that under the logic of Puro, it would probably take 3 Orange Crushes for Kobashi to pin Hart.

    -------
    From what I know about Bret Hart, he's not really as much of a techincal wrestler as he is a ring psychologist; he picks a bodypart [like the back or knee], exploits it before using his Sharpshooter to make his opponent tap.

    I'd classify Kobashi as a power wrestler, adapt with striking with a solid ground game. He's stronger and more durable than Hart, but not as fast. As far as stamina goes, both these guys are the same... they could both go an hour easy in their primes.

    The transition to Western style to Puro isn't hard [even Hogan did it easy enough], so I can easily see Hart matching Kobashi strike for strike even if Kobashi's are more potent. Looking at the way each man worked each match, it's clear that Kobashi relied heavily on his power and strikes, while Hart used his speed, and wore down a body part towards the initial finish.

    The one thing that really tips the match in Hart's favor is that he loves to use the ring as a weapon, something that I, personally, have not seen Kobashi do...logically Hart would be quick to counter any attempts to use the ring against him.

    If Hart manages to weaken one of Kobashi's knees or arms, then the match will just be downhill from there. Logically Kobashi cannot fight properly on one leg or with one arm, and it'll only be a matter of time before he would succumb to the sharpshooter or something else.

    After consideration, I'm really leaning towards Hart on this one... but the match would be close... no doubt a classic... maybe I should have just flipped a coin instead...
     
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  4. Slyfox696

    Slyfox696 Excellence of Execution

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    You're such a terrible fucking liar xfear. And you wonder why I always peg you as a biased mark for anyone with a Japanese last name. Stupid shit arguments like you're trying to pull here only validates the reason why guys like Kobashi shouldn't be in. You're literally making shit up.

    To say Hart worked the same match for 20 years is not only false, it's fucking laughable. You're telling me Bret vs. Bulldog was the same as Bret vs. Owen, HBK vs. Bret (Iron Man) or Bret vs. Perfect? Fucking ridiculous, and it's insulting to anyone who once thought you had a shred of objectivity in an argument with wrestlers having a Japanese last name.

    Let's see if I have your argument right. Your argument is that because Hart used the same 5 moves to set up the finish of a match that means he worked the same match? If you TRULY believe that, then you know even less about wrestling than anyone ever thought. Quit sniffing Scott Keith's ass for a moment and live in the real world.

    The "5 Moves of Doom" not only have absolutely NOTHING to do with the story, goal and execution of a match, it is a GREAT way to set the psychology of a match. It's a subtle way to tell people "hey, REALLY pay attention now, we're bringing this home". And as far as a kayfabe psychology goes, it's Bret going to routine he finds comfortable to close out the match, just like Mariano Rivera uses the cutter to finish off hitters in the 9th. I'm sure as a Red Sox fan, you can relate.

    Make all the arguments you want about the quality of Kobashi. Don't worry, most of the people who vote for him will have no fucking clue whether you're lying to them or not. But to say Bret Hart worked the same match for 20 years is fucking idiotic, and shows just how desperate you are to advance your idol with the Japanese last name.

    Even if I WAS tempted to vote your way on Kobashi, after reading your flagrantly false assessment of Hart's matches, there's no way I'd ever vote for Kobashi now. And hopefully, everyone else will see through your BS as well.
     
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  5. X

    X RIP Sgt. Michael Paranzino / RIP CM

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    How the fuck do you figure? I would LOVE to know just what the fuck you are basing this "Kobashi isn't a safe worker" bullshit on. Kobashi has never seriously injured ANYONE he has wrestled. EVER. And the style he wrestles involves FAR more dangerous bumps and spots than Bret EVER worked. So actually if anything Remix, Kobashi is the safer worker of the two. He works far more dangerous spots and bumps, and he has NEVER seriously injured a single opponent due to this.

    So please, stop with this "Kobashi isn't a safe worker" horseshit. It has absolutely no basis in reality, whatsoever.

    Except he hasn't ever seriously injured anyone in his 20+ year career. EVER. All the while being "stiff as a board" as you claim. Which, again, shows how little you know about Japanese wrestling, because Kobashi is hardly one of the more stiff wrestlers of his era. You want stiff as a board? Go watch Yoshihiro Takayama, or any major UWFi main event from the mid 90s.

    Nowhere in that match I posted was Kobashi being "stiff as a board". If you think those burning elbows and lariats were stiff, you don't know what the fuck stiff is son. Go watch Yoshihiro Takayama vs. Takashi Sugiura from last July in NOAH if you want to see stiff.


    This is relevant...how? I'm truly sorry that absolutely outstanding professional wrestling matches that tell an incredible story in the ring while maintaining incredibly fast-paced and hard hitting action doesn't entertain you. I'm not sure why you even watch wrestling then. For the promos? The Divas? The pretty colors and flashing lights? Storytelling + incredible in-ring action = the fucking definition of a well worked match.

    So you admit Kobashi works an excellent match right there...and yet you claim he's a shit worker. I don't even need to acknowledge the absurdity of these statements do I?

    Then I don't think you know what the definition of workrate is.

    1) Kobashi does NOT have a reputation for being "stiff as beams". Again, this is showing incredible ignorance on your part to the reality of the Japanese wrestling scene for the last 20 years. Kobashi isn't as stiff as fucking half of the workers in ROH right now. And his reputation? It comes from being the definition of FIGHTING SPIRIT, putting on more match of the year candidates on a consistent basis than anyone in this tournament not named Benoit, and it comes from his larger-than-life celebrity that helped draw more money for All Japan in the 90s than the Attitude Era did for the WWE.

    2) Your claims that he is an unsafe worker are completely and utterly unfounded. You have not provided even ONE shred of evidence to support this claim of yours. Not a single one. Not a match, not a clip, not a news clipping, not an injury report, zero, zilch, nothing. Again, Kobashi has NEVER seriously injured anyone in his entire career. Not once. All the while working a style of wrestling that is FAR more dangerous than Bret ever wrestled. So again, if anything Kobashi is infact a far safer worker than Bret or the vast majority of American professional wrestlers over the last 30 years.

    Bret is a fucking hypocrite, because if you look up any of his matches with the Dynamite Kid in Stampede in the early 80s you're going to see tons of stiff shots and moves. He and Dynamite beat the SHIT out of eachother's bodies. For fucks sake Remix, the Hart brothers dynasty made their name and reputations ON BEING STIFF AS FUCK. Have you ever read a single story about the training in the Dungeon?

    And again, still waiting for even one solitary shred of evidence that Kobashi isn't a safe worker. Guess I'll be waiting forever for that though, because that evidence doesn't exist.


    You are wrong, and I have destroyed your entire argument in the first half of this post already. Again, Kobashi has NEVER seriously injured an opponent in his entire career due to his in-ring work. Ever. So there goes your silly argument without any basis in facts, right out the window.


    I'm sorry, are you seriously saying Kobashi is a poor worker because of his chops? My god Remix, the HORROR of a stiff chop! My god he could make someone's chest RED! Or even bruise them! THE HORROR! MY GOD WHAT A MONSTER!

    Again, look up any damn Bret Hart-Dynamite Kid match from Stampede. They stiffed the fuck out of eachother.



    I'm going to just ignore the fact that you really compared Wade fucking Barrett to Kenta Kobashi. My criticisms of Barrett aren't because he's stiff, my criticisms are because he's a poor worker that's shown little to no improvement during his entire run so far.

    But, AGAIN, I'll say it for the 5000th time just so you make sure not to miss it----KENTA KOBASHI HAS NEVER SERIOUSLY INJURED A SINGLE PERSON IN A WRESTLING MATCH BECAUSE OF HIS WORK. EVER.

    And considering, again, how FAR more dangerous of a style he works, the fact that he's never seriously injured anyone with that style actually speaks volumes about what a SAFE worker he is, that he can deliver a move like the Burning Hammer (the correct way, not the half-assed Tyler Reks version) to hundreds of different people over 20 years and never seriously injure one of them. Ever.



    My god what a shitty argument Remix. Again, I implore you not to argue about things you so very clearly are not well educated in. There are plenty of arguments to make for Bret winning this match---calling Kobashi an unsafe or bad worker sure as fuck is NOT one of them, and I think I've proven that pretty clearly by how thoroughly I've debunked your silly argument in this post.
     
    #30
  6. X

    X RIP Sgt. Michael Paranzino / RIP CM

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    Wow someone sure is butthurt as fuck that people aren't jumping on the "hate anyone Japanese" train your driving.

    Hey Sly, here's a cool idea: learn to read my fucking posts correctly. If you did, you'd have seen the comment I made about Bret working the same match for 20 years EXCEPT for the rare exception, like Bret vs. Austin. So I'm just going to disregard the rest of this quote because as usual you didn't actually read or comprehend a fucking word I said.

    Oh, and nevermind that I've said about 5-6 times in THREE DIFFERENT FUCKING THREADS NOW including this one that there are PLENTY of perfectly reasonable, logical, and viable arguments for Bret being superior to Kobashi. But yes, I'm SO biased right? So biased that I fully admit from the start that not only is Bret winning reasonable, but it would be perfectly fine by me.

    Holy shit man, for a teacher you can't read for shit.

    1) Again, back to what I said in the beginning of my response. I made it pretty fucking clear that there were exceptions to the rule, I even listed a fucking example for you twice now (Bret/Austin). That doesn't take away from the fact that the majority of Bret Hart matches consisted of a particular formula that he not only wouldn't change, he would throw a royal bitch fit if you even fucking DARED to try and change one move in his five moves of doom sequence. But again, you'd actually have to read my posts and not just cherry-pick shit for an excuse to attack me to have read me say all of that.

    2) Scott Keith is literally the most un-smarky motherfucker on the planet and he knows very little and cares even less about Japanese wrestling. But that's cool, take a shot at me getting my reviews published on his blog, that's all you ever bring to the table anyways, potshots.

    Again, you fucking buffoon, you fail at reading comprehension. But hey, for a THIRD TIME now in this post, I'll tell you AGAIN: there were EXCEPTIONS to the rule (I provided an example).

    It'll be hard to do that when we're all choking on your sanctimonious bullshit and utter failure at being able to read a fucking post correctly.

    Just so I can make SURE you don't miss it, I'll re-iterate the same shit I've been saying since my first post, that I've said about 4 times now in this post alone. And I'll even put it in big bold letters so you won't be tempted to go right back to cherry-picking shit to flip out about.

    1) BRET HART PREDOMINANTLY WRESTLED THE SAME FORMULA MATCH FOR THE MAJORITY OF HIS CAREER. THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS TO THIS OF COURSE, BUT THEY ARE JUST THAT: EXCEPTIONS, AND NOT THE RULE.

    2) BRET HART DEFEATING KOBASHI IN THIS MATCH-UP WOULD BE PERFECTLY REASONABLE AND UNDERSTANDABLE, AND WOULD NOT UPSET ME IN ANY WAY. THERE ARE MANY REASONABLE ARGUMENTS TO BE MADE FOR BRET IN THIS MATCH UP.



    Okay, you got it? Do I need to type it in even larger font just to make sure you don't miss it this time? Should I send you a fucking telegram, rent out an airplane to write this message across the sky over your home? Or will you, you know, actually READ my god damn post this time?
     
    #31
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  7. Nate DaMac

    Nate DaMac Fuck erbody but me

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    It's not like I'm voting for fucking X-Pac here. There's no wrong answer here, so why are you so up in arms about me voting for my favorite wrestler? We can you use whatever criteria we want and this is what I'm using for this specific match up.


    You can back pedal all you want after you figure out what the meaning of the word actually is, but the point is that my vote is not moot. If there is a tie, Kobashi isn't going to win because my vote didn't count, therefore my vote is not moot. Christ it isn't that hard to understand.

    Jesus kid, just take a joke. I don't really care why you do it, I was just fucking with you.

    I'd say you guys have nothing to be ashamed of. The fact that the vote is so close here speaks volumes to his work seeing as most of the posters here would likely know a lot more about Hart than Kobashi. Maybe in the next year or so I can get past this language and cultural barrier and truly understand what it is that makes Kobashi so great. But 4 days isn't enough time for me to vote for someone I don't know over someone I grew up idolizing. I think that's fair.
     
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  8. Slyfox696

    Slyfox696 Excellence of Execution

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    And yet, YOU are the only one flat out lying in this thread. :shrug:

    I see. So what you're saying is except for the ambiguous term of "rare" Bret worked the same match.

    Even still, that's fucking bullshit. You have not ONCE proven your statement, and I HAVE proved what I said. Hell, look at the King of the Ring. EVERY match he worked in that tournament was different. His matches at Wrestlemania 10 were different from each other. Not only are you wrong, we have matches on the same night to prove it.

    As usual, your blind love for Japanese last names is causing you to create fictitious arguments which hold no water.

    Then why make up the lies? Which they are, as I have shown on multiple occasions, and you've yet to prove otherwise? Why the lies?

    Oh sure, you can be gracious, but it doesn't change the fact your evaluation of Bret Hart's matches is completely off. And the only reason for it, that I can see, is so you can put over your Japanese hero, but if he loses, hey, you were gracious about it, right?

    Like every match I mention, for example?

    And I didn't say anything about Bret vs. Austin, now did I? Who exactly has the reading problem?

    Perhaps you don't understand what a "match" is. A match is all of the action which happens from the opening bell to the closing bell. It's not just the last five minutes of a match.

    Maybe that's where we got our wires crossed.

    What the fuck are you talking about? How stuck up your own ass are you?

    Scott Keith is where the term "5 Moves of Doom" originally became famous! Good fucking God, do you just not know anything about Bret Hart, or are you that stuck on yourself? Just curious.

    And AGAIN, I'll tell you AGAIN...the exception is every match. I think it's funny that every match I named was a "rare" exception. Tell me, xfear, just what exactly is your definition of "rare"? Mine is something that happens very infrequently, what's yours? Something that happens on a regular occasion, like Hart's matches being different?

    Maybe that's just another example of us getting our wires crossed. I'll tell you what. You clarify for me what you consider to be an entire match, and your definition of "rare" is, and we'll go from there. MY definition of an entire match is from opening bell to closing bell, and my definition of "rare" is something which happens very infrequently.

    Let's hear yours, and we can go from there.
     
    #33
  9. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Two things here. One, where in x's post did it say that Bret Hart's "five moves of doom" were a signal that he was bringing the match home? Only one to two of his moves (i.e., the leg stomp to the inner thigh and later on the ringpost figure four) were ever sure signs that he was working on his opponent's legs to finish them with the Sharpshooter. The Russian leg sweep and second elbow from the turnbuckle that he did in virtually every match he wrestled had absolutely nothing to do with the bout at hand; they were moves he was comfortable with that showed a lack of imagination on his part. Hart's offense was as bland and predictable as they get. This wouldn't be a problem if the appearance of strategy wasn't such a big deal in professional wrestling.

    Two, wrestling necessarily involves at least two people. There's a huge difference between saying that Bret Hart wrestled the same match and that all of Bret Hart's matches were similar. While it's undeniable that the matches you listed aren't similar, it's also undeniable that Hart accounted for very little of this dissimilarity. I'll go back and watch all these matches again to double check. However, I've already watched his match with Bulldog and his performance doesn't feature anything new or different from what one would expect based off of his previous matches.
     
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  10. Steamboat Ricky

    Steamboat Ricky WZCW's Living Legend

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    I voted Kobashi because X is my not-so-secret lover, and because I want a major first-round upset. And he made a dude bleed the hard-way with CHOPS. Don't mess with that dude.
     
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  11. Slyfox696

    Slyfox696 Excellence of Execution

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    He didn't. That's the point. The 5 Moves of Doom were moves which WERE the signal to the crowd that they were going home. Why do you think it's called the 5 Moves of DOOM. If it were about moves that happened throughout the match, it really wouldn't be "doom", now would it?

    The 5 Moves of Doom term was labeled on the moves Hart would use towards the end of the match, as he was bringing it to a close.

    This is hilariously absurd as well. You're just as bad as xfear. You're trying to put over Kobashi by lying about what Hart did. Of course, when you do it, it surprises me no less than when xfear does it. You two are more stale and predictable than you claim Hart's offense is.

    What the fuck are you talking about? So, Hart's matches are the same enough to insult Hart, but they're not really the same at all thanks to the other wrestlers in the ring?

    That literally makes no sense, and is just more lies coming from the Japanese love camp. What you are PROBABLY talking about is that Hart uses roughly the same moveset (which isn't true either when you look at his history over the years). But for arguments sake, let's say Hart does use similar moves in his matches. What the fuck does that matter? As I've said a million times, the moves you use have absolutely NOTHING to do with the story being told in the ring. And you just ADMITTED the matches Hart was in were different, which means the story in the matches, as well as the goal they were attempting to accomplish were different. And you're right, a wrestling match has two men, but since we're only talking about one of those men, and you AGREE that Hart's matches were different, then I guess you also have to agree you cannot say Hart wrestled the same match.

    Thank you TDigle for making my point. Not only are you making stuff up to justify your blind love for Japanese last names like your cohort xfear, you are inadvertently making my point for me.
     
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  12. klunderbunker

    klunderbunker Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House

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    Uh.....not exactly.

    E-Mail sent to Scott Keith by KB:

    Scott's reply:

    So, not only does he know of it and like it, but he liked the Kobashi-Misawa days, as in the same match you used in here. Interesting.
     
    #37
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  13. X

    X RIP Sgt. Michael Paranzino / RIP CM

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    Bullshit. I'm not the first person to accuse Bret of this either, everyone from Ric Flair to Shawn Michaels to Curt Hennig has said the same exact thing I have---that Bret would predominantly rely on wrestling the same formula match.

    But yes, YOU clearly know better about this than people WHO ACTUALLY FUCKING WRESTLED BRET HART. Clearly. I forgot you were Jesus Sly of Nazareth.



    You want proof? Sure thing. Go look up any fucking house show from the late 80s with a Bret Hart singles match. 90% of them are the exact same formula. This isn't some bullshit I'm pulling out of thin air, it's something that has been said by several of Bret Hart's peers over the last 30 years. Bret was in fact so stuck in the same exact routine in the ring constantly that he would FLIP THE FUCK OUT on ANYONE who tried to even change ONE move in his finishing sequence. Excuse me if I take Ric Flair's word over yours. He's wrestled Bret Hart, MANY times. Have you? No, you sure as fuck have not.

    Oh shut the fuck up with this "Japanese last names" bullshit, there are plenty of Japanese wrestlers I can't fucking stand, read any one of my fucking NOAH reviews and you'll see me have nothing but negative things to say about hacks like Mohammed Yone and Yutaka Yoshie. I love Kobashi because he's given more in that wrestling ring over his career than most wrestlers, regardless of what country they're from, could ever fucking dream of. He's fought through endless injuries, marital troubles and fucking CANCER to still come back year after year to entertain the fans despite the fact that his body is in such poor shape at this point that doctors have told him he shouldn't even be able to WALK anymore.

    So please, for the love of Christ, shut the FUCK up about this bullshit about how I'm biased towards Japanese wrestlers when I fucking said in this very thread no less that it would be completely justified and a fucking honor for Kobashi to lose to Bret. If you pay any attention to my reviews or blog, I review and rate American wrestling FAR more frequently and to FAR higher ratings then I EVER do for Japanese wrestling. Holy fuck I've given rave reviews to the last 3 WWE PPVs, and last I checked, yep, no Japanese people involved in those shows. Every time you bring up this bullshit I want to smack you in the face because if you took even five fucking minutes to actually read my thoughts on pro wrestling you'd see I prefer and adore American wrestling far more than I ever have or ever will puroresu. So for the love of God, shut the fuck up with that bullshit.

    Oh you're right I forgot those 4 matches you named represented a majority of the matches Bret Hart wrestled over his 20 year career. How silly of me, I forgot Bret Hart wrestled only 6 matches in his entire life. You want proof? Again, look up any god damn house show Bret Hart wrestled a singles match on, look up his matches with Curt Hennig in WCW in 1998, look up his slew of 1995 matches against the likes of Jean Pierre Lafitte and Isaac Yankem. Bret had a formula, and he stuck to it 9 times out of 10.

    Sorry, think I'm going to take the words of people who actually wrestled Bret Hart over your honestly worthless opinion.

    I'm not even going to respond to the rest of your post because, just like your first post in this thread, it's nothing but you being a condescending prick and hurling insults my way. Here's a wild idea: don't like what I have to say? Don't read my posts then. Crazy shit, I know, right?

    Have you actually READ his reviews of puro? He, again, knows very little about it and the only reason he ever reviewed it was because people sent him free tapes and asked him to watch them. Why the fuck do you think he brought me on to do puro and indy reviews on his blog? Because he dedicates almost none of his time to it. Of his thousands and thousands of reviews he has maybe like 5 or 6 reviews TOTAL about Japanese wrestling. He hardly knows more about it than you do.
     
    #38
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  14. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    I have no clue where you're getting this definition of the five moves of doom from. The definition that can be inferred from the way people use it on here is nowhere near close to what you're saying it is. If that's how you define the five moves of doom, then the point is totally irrelevant to the debate at hand. Just because, in your eyes, the term "five moves of doom" was used incorrectly doesn't take away from the fact that Bret Hart ALWAYS used the same moves and never tailored his offense to the weaknesses/strengths of his opponents.

    Nothing said here so far has proven our point to be absurd. You've listed a bunch of matches and expect us to see something that clearly isn't there. Hart's performances are the same; no amount of rewinding and rewatching can change this fact.


    It makes perfect sense. How is this not obvious? It isn't necessary for Hart to give different performances for his matches to be different. He can do his same old, boring routine while letting his opponents add the spice. It's actually quite a simple concept. Aren't you always the one claiming that your comments fly over people's heads? How can something so low to the ground fly above yours?

    Wrong. I can say that Hart wrestled the same match while also saying that his matches were different (refer to what I said above).

    Also, one's moveset has a LOT to do with the story one tells in the ring. Look at the matches you listed in your first post. The alleged greatness of three of those four matches have FUCK ALL to do with what Bret Hart did in the ring. His matches with Bulldog, Michaels, and his brother are great because of WWE's production crew, not because of Bret Hart. His match with Bulldog would have been shit without the picture-in-picture of Bulldog's wife's face and her teary promo prior to Summerslam 1992, his match with Michaels would have been shit without the heavy promotion of Michaels' backstory with Jose Lotharia, and his match with Owen would have been shit without months of genius booking from whoever wrote for the WWF back then.

    Hart has only had three matches where he was able to properly tell a story without needing the help of promos and commentary: his match with Mr. Perfect at Summerslam 1991, his match with the 123 Kid on a Raw episode, and his Wrestlemania 13 match with Steve Austin. His moveset and the way he employed it were markedly different in these matches from his usual process. Well, I take that back; he essentially wrestled the same match that he wrestled at Summerslam 1991 for the next 10 years, but at least his matches with the 123 Kid and Austin were different.


    [QUOTE[Thank you TDigle for making my point. Not only are you making stuff up to justify your blind love for Japanese last names like your cohort xfear, you are inadvertently making my point for me.[/QUOTE]

    Have you actually ever seen a Kobashi match, by the way? Can you actually justify your vote with anything besides the fact that, according to you, Kobashi's WZ supporters lie about his opponent (which is a ridiculous notion in itself now that I've done away with any of the credibility that you're trying to give to Bret Hart)? Any detraction of actual substance will do; I'm not expecting much from a person who loves to impugn professional wrestling journalists while at the same time employing their favorite buzz words.
     
    #39
    Blue Chipper likes this.
  15. klunderbunker

    klunderbunker Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House

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    I don't write a column on politics. I know a lot about it.

    I don't write reviews of Jimmy Stewart movies. I'm rather familiar with them.

    I talk about I Love Lucy on occasion but I don't have a blog about it.

    Is it possible, JUST POSSIBLE, that he knows about it and watches it and doesn't review them for his blog? We'll ignore the ton of reviews of Japanese wrestling I've seen of his over the years or the fact that he just said he's a fan of TWO different companies and assume you're right. This means he isn't a fan of it/know about it? Because he doesn't write about it that often? Really X?
     
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  16. Slyfox696

    Slyfox696 Excellence of Execution

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    http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=155405&page=2

    I've already responded to that. Get your answer there.

    :lmao::lmao::lmao:

    A fucking house show? Wait, you are basing your argument on fucking house shows!? Oh my fucking God, I cannot BELIEVE you actually are trying to make that argument.

    House show matches are ALL the same. Everyone today works the same match at house shows, just like they did 20 years ago. Who the fuck is talking about house shows? I'm talking about matches on PPV, where the real money is, and where match quality actually matters.

    Good God, xfear, fucking house shows? THAT'S your argument? Fuck, I'm tempted to not even bother replying to anything else in your post, if you're using house shows to make a point.

    How desperate can one person be?

    http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=155405&page=2

    Already covered that too. You're also more repetitive than you and tdigle accuse Hart of being. But this time, I will point out, you're likely talking about Savage, not Hart.

    And yet, not one of them you haven't supported in these tournaments. Hmm...

    So...you agree Bret Hart deserves to go over Kobashi. Great.


    Oh, and don't get me wrong, I saw where you said that earlier. I just wanted you to keep saying it over and over.


    So...if you agree Hart deserves to go over, then shouldn't you recant your statement about how Hart isn't half the worker Kobashi is? Because you agree it would be justified for Hart to go over, so that means you agree he's more deserving. Feel free to make your "Go Hart" post. We'll all wait.

    No, those are just the matches everyone knows, and I point out how they are nothing alike, thus debunking your lies he works the same match.

    :lmao::lmao::lmao:

    I'm sorry, but you're fucking slaying me with the house show stuff. If it's not PPV, then it's pointless. You put ANYbody on a 4 night a week house show circuit, they're going to work essentially the same match. Why? Because the big money is on PPV, not the house show, so you don't give away your good stuff.

    For someone who wants people to think he knows a lot about wrestling, you sure don't seem to understand very much about it. That's not a personal shot, just taking what you have said in this thread and making an observation.

    Wait...now you're telling KB that the comment he got from Scott Keith himself doesn't mean as much as your opinion?

    That's great xfear, it fits in with the rest of your tactic. Lie and disguise the truth as much as possible.

    What the hell are you talking about? That IS the definition of The Five Moves of Doom, and has been since the beginning. Are you really trying to say that the accurate definition doesn't count because people like you are completely ignorant to it? That's ridiculous.

    Which is complete bullshit as well.

    I love ignorant people like you, who think offensive moves are the sole determinant to the quality of a match.

    The fact of the matter is that Hart's performances differ greatly, as do the stories he tells in the ring. To deny that is simply being ignorant or a liar. Take your pick.

    When it is completely false, it's hard to wrap my head around it. Call it a quirk I have to not understand flat out lies.

    Hart uses The 5 Moves of Doom to set up the finish of the match, but aside from that, his matches are different all the time. And for you to claim matches are different simply because his opponents are different makes absolutely zero sense. If Hart worked the same matches, then the matches he worked with different opponents would be the same.

    Unless you're one of those stupid people who gauges the performance in a match simply by the offense moves used. In which case, you really have no credibility in this argument at all.

    Completely false.

    John Cena is constantly ripped for his moveset, and yet his matches with Umage told different stories than his matches with Shawn Michaels. His match with Lashley was completely different than his match with Triple H. He used the same moveset, but the matches were completely different.

    Apply that same theory to Hart.

    :lmao:

    I'll let the stupidity of this comment speak for itself.


    You're right, Bret Hart was just the luckiest son of a bitch in wrestling history.

    God tdigle, it amazes me anyone actually respects your opinion of wrestling if you TRULY believe what you're saying here.
     
    #41
    Hollywood Naitch and nightmare like this.
  17. Big Nick Dudley

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    The "Five Moves of Doom" argument is ridiculous. Bashing someone for following a formula is bullshit when it's used against Cena, and it's bullshit when judging the quality of Bret Hart's matches.

    For me it's always boiled down to execution. Not many guys in the history of American professional wrestling have looked as clean and smooth as Bret Hart. He performed each move, formulaic or otherwise, with precision and purpose. To say otherwise is a lie, or you just don't know what you're talking about. Bret made every move count, or mean something. He cared, and it showed.

    Maybe I don't deserve the same amount of respect as some higher-repped posters around here, but I know what I'm talking about. I can guarantee I have watched at least as many Bret Hart matches as anyone on this forum. I don't like the guy just..because. I like the guy because he was one fucking hell of a performer. Overrated? I don't think so.

    If anything, he's underrated here in the IWC. Blindly hating on talented guys seems to be the new fad around here. I constantly read praise for guys who were not better than Hart in the ring (Hogan, Rock, Austin, Andre, Cena), so to say Hart is overrated isn't all that accurate. Were you reading what the smarks had to say when he came back last year?

    I read every entry in this thread before posting, and I noticed a few things. Outside of xfear and tdigle, it's clear to me most have no idea who Kobashi even is. Maybe they watched one or two of his matches via the internet in hopes of looking really, really smart! in this thread, but nothing more. That's why I'm not sure I can vote. I can fully admit I know next to nothing about Kobashi, and I wouldn't feel right loading up youtube, watching a few matches, and voting for The Hitman just because I want to. If you don't know what you're talking about, admit it, and move on.

    I want to vote for Bret, but I refuse to be that big of a tool.
     
    #42
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  18. The Chosen One of WZ

    The Chosen One of WZ Even TNA cant ruin ECW for me

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    Bret Hart FTW.

    I could go down the laudry list of reason why Bret Hart is a legend but i'll sum it up.

    He was a multi time heavyweight champion. He but on some of the best matchs of all time. Plus he is just great, he would beat Kenta Kobashi.
     
    #43
  19. Dyno Kid

    Dyno Kid Pre-Show Stalwart

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    I'm going with Kobashi on this one easily ! He's not only one of the best workers of his time but of all-time ! Be it as a singles wrestler or tag teamer he's been involved in some of the best matches of the 1990's and along with Misawa and Kawada they were the best in-ring workers among the heavyweights of the decade !

    Never really got Hart. While he's a pretty good worker I always found him robotic, uncharismatic, not a good promo guy, and I'd say he's vastly overrated. And fo the people who say Hart never hurt anyone the late Bad News Allen in his shoot talks about the 2 concussions that Bret gave him.
     
    #44
  20. Pay Per Ghost

    Pay Per Ghost squashed Disco Inferno to become

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    So if I have seen like just one Kobashi match and heard a lotta about his technical prowess whereas seen a ton of Hart matches and found them fair enough am I eligible to vote?

    Because I 'll be honest I have no fucking clue about puro. I have seen clips from time to time on YT doing insane shit moves but I gotta tell you if this match is in North America. Hart wins. Bigger draw, good wrestler. Technical prowess my ass, the guy (even if he was devoid of great expressions) still had the people eating out the palm of his hand, (hope popularity counts).

    And Nick as much as I like Bret he at times hw did have boring matches. I mean I don't think he can be billed as over or under, just rated I guess is fine.
     
    #45
  21. Hollywood Naitch

    Hollywood Naitch The current reigning and defending

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    I had to vote for the Hitman here. Over the last couple of years. having heard all about Kobashi's exploits I have watched some of his work and while being impressed, he is not on the same level as Bret Hart.

    Hart is one of the greatest technical wrestlers I have ever seen, and deserves to go right to the end of this tournament, his list of accomplishments is astounding and the sacrifices Bret made throughout his career and loyalty he showed to the WWE have made me respect the man more than almost any other wrestler.

    I have met Bret Hart and he is also a really nice guy so that is yet another reason why he gets my vote.
     
    #46
  22. Mr. Artistic guy

    Mr. Artistic guy Better Off This Way

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    I think if your going to take the stance of Bret working a similar match on a high number of occasions, the most important thing to take account of is "excellence of execution". He may seem limited to what he could do in the ring, but what he could do, he did immaculately, that's the point.

    Besides I know the whole point of this is ANY criteria be used, but think about it. Bret used a lot of the same moves and tactics in matches, but those same moves and tactics won him a hell of a lot of matches. No reason why in a kayfabe fight Bret formula couldn't be applied once more for a win.
     
    #47
  23. nightmare

    nightmare ...7, 8, Better stay up late...

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    well this has seemed to de-evolve quickly into a pissing match. Either side is using arguments in regard exposure of culture & who is 'stiff' or not... i, admittingly dont know alot about puro as x does & slyfox has alot of knowledge in regard to north america style especially the older guys. both are 2 very different styles. i try to avoid voting on simple things like 'mic skill', continent worked in, nationality, time the matches happend in (80's 90's etc.) & who is booking the mathces (scripted) or who has more pull in the business. trying to look at this as if the matches are contested as an all out battle regardless of the above influences using skill at the peak of their tenure in the biz.


    this shouldnt really come down to who they beat\where they won, it should be on quality of matches & the ability of said wrestler to take out the other guy using his skills\training. Hart trained in the dungeon. That is a huge advantage. Notorious for stiff mathces & stretching guys to the limit. so that is similar to kobashi. kinda levels that out.

    its a match between a fantastic technical guy (hart) & a good technical guy with a far more punishing moveset (kobashi). i voted because i believe that hart would lose in a fight with kobashi. sure hart would pick apart his knee\leg\shoulder what have you & wear him down. but you cant deny kobashi wouldnt dish out a large amount of punishment that hart quite possible hasnt had to deal with rather than a few occasions in his career. it comes to who takes all the punishment the other dishes out & walks away the victor. based on that, im giving it to kobashi.
     
    #48
  24. X

    X RIP Sgt. Michael Paranzino / RIP CM

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    Absolute bullshit. Kenta Kobashi is one of the biggest draws in professional wrestling history and has twice won the Observer award for Biggest Box Office Draw in the world, an award Bret Hart has never even sniffed at. In the 90s Kobashi alongside Misawa helped draw absolutely staggering television ratings in Japan alongside attendance numbers that put the WWF's to shame at the time. The WWF was struggling to fill up 15,000 seat venues when Bret was on top while Kobashi and Misawa were wrestling in front of sold out crowds of 20,000 on practically a weekly basis. Years later when Misawa and Kobashi put NOAH on the map, they wrestled in front of some of the largest wrestling crowds of the last decade, drawing several Tokyo Dome shows of over 60,000 in attendance. Bret Hart couldn't draw those numbers at any point in his career, ever.

    There are many arguments to be made for Bret. Claiming he's a bigger draw is not one of them, because it's absolutely positively 100% false. Kobashi is twice the draw Bret ever was.
     
    #49
  25. gd

    gd Plump, Juicy User

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    Christ I don't know here. I mean, obviously they're both good and deserving of winning, but there can only be one winner. That's the point of the tournament, you see. Bret was one of the biggest North American stars ever. Kobashi was one of the biggest Asian stars ever.

    Being as such a close matchup I suppose I'll have to vote for the upset, cause upsets are always fun. Either way though, a very good wrestler will be moving on to the second round. I'm sure their family will be proud.
     
    #50

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