Houston Region, Boston Subregion: First Round: (1) Bret Hart vs. (32) Kenta Kobashi

Discussion in 'Houston Region' started by klunderbunker, Feb 22, 2011.

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Who Wins This Match

  1. Bret Hart

  2. Kenta Kobashi

Multiple votes are allowed.
Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. klunderbunker

    klunderbunker Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House

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    The following contest is a first round match in the Houston Region.

    This match takes place in the TD Garden in Boston, Massachusetts.

    [​IMG]

    #1 Bret Hart

    [​IMG]

    Vs.

    #32 Kenta Kobashi

    [​IMG]

    This contest is one fall with a 20 minute time limit. The match will take place in a 16 x 16 ring with no ramp leading to it. Any traditional managers for either competitor will be allowed at ringside.

    As for voting, vote for who you think would win this match based on the criteria you choose. Some suggestions would be (not limited to): in ring ability, overall skill, their level of influence at the highest point in their career, ability to connect with the crowd, experience in major matches or simply personal preference etc.

    The most votes in the voting period wins and in the case of a tie, the most written votes wins. There is one written vote per user, meaning if a poster make ten posts saying Bret should win that will count as a single vote. In the event of a second tie, both men are ELIMINATED, no questions asked. Only winners advance.

    Voting is open for four days and all posts must be non-spam.​
     
    #1
  2. Uncle Sam

    Uncle Sam Rear Naked Bloke

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    I'm preparing to be drowned by a chorus of-- well, not boos. I'll be drowned in something alright. Not sure what, but we'll see.

    Kobashi has never impressed me that much. I know, that's tantamount to blasphemy in some circles, but he hasn't. When I first looked into him, I was just decidedly unimpressed. A year later, as tournament season rolled round again, I looked into him again and was somewhat more impressed, but was never blown away as I was promised I would be. At the risk of turning this into a North America vs. Japan debate, I just think there's this aura around Japanese wrestlers and the puro style that the actual product behind can't really hope to live up to. Many of my favourite wrestlers are indebted to the Japanese style (Go To Sleep, anyone?) but... ehh. Certainly, there's an aura surrounding Kobashi and I for one feel he doesn't exactly live up to it.

    As for Bret Hart, I could give a laundry list of stuff he's done but a) you probably already know it and b) somebody else inevitably will anyway.
     
    #2
  3. Dave

    Dave Administrator
    Staff Member Administrator

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    I'm going to vote for Bret Hart here and I am going to give you one reason as to why that is...

    You ready?

    I haven't seen enough of Kenta Kobashi.

    Now, that might be because he is from Asia and as such, hasn't really had an impact ion the time I have been watching wrestling. However, it is likely because he has never given me a reason to go and watch him for any amount of time. Sam was right in his post. Kenta is the talk of the town around these parts when the Tournament is going on and every year I look up Youtube waiting to be impressed by this man. However, every year I am left completely unimpressed by what I see. Well, maybe unimpressed is the wrong term but I am definitely not seeing what everyone else is seeing in him.

    He is a good wrestler, that much is sure. However. I don't see what everyone else sees in him and he is against Bret Hart. Perhaps it is because I like Bret Hart a lot more or maybe it is because I have actually seen enough of Hart's work to know that he may be the best wrestler to ever step into a ring that I am voting for him here. Bret Hart is a legacy in professional wrestling and is still one of the most talked-about men in the tournament.

    Kobashi, whilst being talented, is not going to go over Hart here I think. If he does, then more power to him. I just wont be voting for him is all.
     
    #3
  4. Theo Mays

    Theo Mays Part Time Poster

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    I'll be voting for Bret Hart here. One he is my favorite wrestler and two I haven't really seen much from Kobashi. I'm not much into him from what I've seen. I'm right with Dave here. Everyone raves about Kobashi around this time of year and I expect him to be the greatest thing from the hype he gets and he's never lived up to it. I'm not saying he isn't great, but I just can't put him over Hitman here.
     
    #4
  5. Joe's Gonna Kill You

    Joe's Gonna Kill You The Hunt is On

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    These are Two Great Technical Wrestlers and I think this will be one Hell of a Match, both Men have had great matches and this would be a Great Match. I have no idea who I'm going to vote for her because I Love both Mens Work so I'm going to wait for someone to sway me to voting for Bret Hart or Kenta Kobashi.
     
    #5
  6. Serious Mozzarella

    Serious Mozzarella Special Victims Unit

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    I voted Kenta Kobashi by accident.

    Bret Hart clearly takes this one, and it's not even a competition. He's one of the greatest technical wrestlers in the history of wrestling, working all over the world, where Kenta Kobashi worked... in Japan. Bret Hart sets the standard of what a legend is supposed to be. He is someone who consistently works great matches, regardless of his attitude outside of the ring, and because of that, Bret goes over Kobashi in the first round.
     
    #6
  7. Mr. Truth

    Mr. Truth Real American Hero

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    I know I'm fighting a losing battle here, and I'm 99.999% sure Bret Hart will win because he's from North America and was in the WWE and WCW. I'm a firm believer that this tournament should only be under the scope of who would win in a match. That's what I'm sticking to. To save some space, go to my Kobashi HQ thread: http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=155184where you'll find a couple of matches that I've chosen to highlight, some information about his career, and his extremely lengthy lists of accomplishments.

    Anyway, as I said, I believe that the best criteria for judging this is solely based on "who would win in a match." With that in mind, Kenta Kobashi would take it. His "gimmick" so to speak is that he could take a beating and still power through in the end. Coupled with that fact that he's a puro strong-style guy, where they constantly get dropped in ways that shorten their lifespans, he'd be able to take whatever just about anyone this tournament would dish at him, Bret Hart included. His stamina and sheer willpower are above Bret's, so he'd wear him down and eventually hit the Burning Hammer. Plus, he has the most vicious chops out of anyone I've ever watched.
    [YOUTUBE]o1HH_HkmAfY[/YOUTUBE]

    I understand those of you who can take a moment to take a step back and look at the evidence, and still vote Hart. The skill of both these guys would make for a slight advantage one way or the other. However, those of you who are writing him off simply because he didn't wrestle in the USA need to think again. In the USA, wrestling is treated as a show. In Japan, people go nuts over it. It's on the same level as many legitimation sports in terms of popularity. I'd say a guy who is on the Mount Rushmore of Japanese wrestlers should be at or above the level of a guy who was the top guy for a company at a time when wrestling was trending downwards. So I ask of everyone this, look at some Kobashi matches, read a bit about him, know who the guy is before just saying "He's not from North America, he didn't work for WWE or WCW, so he doesn't matter."
     
    #7
  8. nightmare

    nightmare ...7, 8, Better stay up late...

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    i fucking love bret hart& he has been through some tough battles. hart is one of my all time favorites- but thats because i grew up in the states. you cannot say you vote someone in over another based on lack of exposure. if you lived in puerto rico & never heard of kurt angle- does that automatically make carlito better than him? fuck no it dosent.

    kobashi came back from cancer. cancer. that is a fantastic tribute to the strength of an athlete. his style of wrestling & the impact that comes with that would break down 90% of the US guys within a few matches. He has withstood some terrible punishment & has rarely ever taken time off. also his title runs cannot be discounted just because they arent north american.

    vote wisely. do your homework before discrediting someone due to lack of exposure. if this was contested under the c.g. system that 'deadliest warrior' uses- kobashi would be victorious.
     
    #8
  9. 6timehitta

    6timehitta Big Papa Panty Droppa

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    It is Bret Hart, by a mile tbh. Kobashi is an Icon in Japan, and by means he should be. But TBH Bret Hart is the epitome of a wrestler. He is the top technical wrestler in all of wrestling history.
     
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  10. Remix

    Remix Is a thin rope

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    Irrelevent to this discussion. Is Bret Hart a tumor? No, so toughness of Kobashi (that consists of having his kidney removed) really doesn't help him here.

    It's a lot more down to the skill of the surgeon and the drugs for cancer are than anything else.

    You're using "rarely takes time off" as an arguement against BRET FUCKING HART? The man who showed up at the Royal Rumble with a 104 degree fever? Also, being a shitty worker, isn't a good arguement either.

    Yes, you did read that right. I called Kobashi a shit worker, because that's EXACTLY what he is. I'm sure that the man can wrestle every bit as well as Hart and has the psychology of someone with a degree in the subject, but that doesn't stop him being a shit worker. The job of a pro wrestler is to make it look like you're hurting the opponent while doing exactly the opposite. Sure, some pain is unavoidable. The ring's made of steel and wood. However, throwing uber stiff lariats, chops and any other kind of strike is not anything that I would describe as "working". And then there's the Burning Hammer... Either he's not good enough to do what Tyler Reks does (i.e. perform it safely), which would roughly put him on roughly the same level as a worker as Wade Barrett or he chooses to perform it unsafely, which makes him a shit worker. Either way, Bret Hart should win.

    Vote for the better worker. Vote for Bret "the hitman" Hart.
     
    #10
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  11. Mr. Truth

    Mr. Truth Real American Hero

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    You're comparing apples to oranges here though. Kobashi is a terrific worker when it comes to puro strong style. The proper strong style way is to make everything as stiff (or at least look as stiff) as possible. Strong style isn't the safest type of wrestling. Over 20 years in the business working strong has damaged Kobashi's body. Years of working strong style killed Misawa. It's just the way strong style is. The American style is more theatrical and far more safe. It's about making things look "big" but be as safe as possible. If you're going to argue on behalf of Bret, which is by far the easier argument since we're on an American wrestling board, at least use a better argument than "Kobashi isn't a good worker because his style isn't the safest."
     
    #11
  12. Remix

    Remix Is a thin rope

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    So because everybody's doing it, that makes being a shit worker ok?

    So you agree that Kobashi is an unsafe worker. Especially when compared to Bret who never injured anyone in his two decade long career?

    Irrelevent. You can make your strikes look good without throwing strikes so stiff that you can cause legitimate injuries. That defies the point of actually working a match. I don't care if that's the style. Using that as a defence is like saying "it's fine to take drugs if everyone you know takes them too.

    I'm calling a spade a spade here. Kobashi's a stiff, overrated unsafe worker who deserves to lose this match. End of story.
     
    #12
  13. Mr. Truth

    Mr. Truth Real American Hero

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    You claimed he was bad because he's stiff. That's just the style they work there. Everyone works stiff. Are you going to claim that someone like Stan Hansen is a bad worker because he's notorious for being stiff?



    Since when did this become a "who's a safer worker" tournament? If it was, then wouldn't we want to award this to someone who wears a suit made out of pillows or something?


    Again, this is a silly point. What needs to be taken into account is the culture where the worker is from. To use your drugs argument, "it's fine to take drugs in Amsterdam because the laws there allow it." Smoking a little weed in Amsterdam is perfectly OK. The culture there is accepting of it. In Japan, the culture there is accepting of the strong style. In fact, I'd say it's encouraged. Also, if you're going to tell me that any strike Bret Hart threw looked like it hurt more than the chops I linked in the video earlier, you're flat out lying.


    As for that, I say you can't hold working stiff against someone. That's the style of not only him but numerous other wrestlers from Japan. Overrated means that he'd have to be rated highly to begin with, and based on what most people are saying, he's actually underrated. And I'm not aware of any particular injury he's caused to someone. It's possible, and if someone can show me, by all means show me, but I am unaware for him actually botching a move to the point of causing injury.
     
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  14. X

    X RIP Sgt. Michael Paranzino / RIP CM

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    Sorry while I vomit in my mouth at the overwhelming, steaming pile of bullshit that Remix is trying to sell. Kobashi is a shit worker? Right, there goes any merit your opinion once held, right out the window never to return again. Especially since you're pimping out Bret fucking Hart, the single most overrated "worker" in the history of professional wrestling. The man worked THE SAME FUCKING MATCH FOR 20 YEARS. Literally, go back, find just about ANY great Bret Hart match, and it's the same exact formula every single god damn time. You know how people say Cena has the "five moves of doom"? Well Bret Hart fucking invented it.

    I could close my eyes and call the action and finish of any Bret Hart match, ever. Here goes: bulldog, backbreaker, diving knee from the second rope, sharpshooter. Every. Single. Time. Always. Seriously, outside of a few RARE matches like his submission match against Austin, every single Bret Hart match is the same exact formula. You could throw him out there with a fucking mop and it would be the same.

    Don't get me wrong, I love Bret Hart. But he's the most overrated worker and "technical wrestler" in the history of this industry. His brother Owen was twice the worker Bret could ever have DREAMED of being, and unlike Bret he actually was creative and didn't just work the same fucking formula match for 20 years straight.

    Remix, your criticism of Kobashi as a poor worker for being stiff? You've never even seen the man wrestle, have you? Or wait, let me guess, you looked up one match from the last 10 years on YouTube and there you go, you think you're qualified to call him a poor worker? You must not even understand what the fuck workrate is then. Please, PLEASE, watch this match right here, and fucking tell me Kobashi is a poor worker. I dare you, I fucking BEG you.




    Go on man, watch that match, tell me about how Kobashi can't work. I need a good laugh.


    As for this match-up, I'm sure Hart will win because he's much more familiar name, but Hart isn't even half the worker Kobashi is. My vote, obviously, went to Kobashi simply because he'll need as many votes as he can get to pass a name like Bret in the first round. I love Bret, I do, but he was never on Kobashi's level as a worker OR as a draw. Kobashi and Misawa were wrestling in front of 40,000 people every other week, scoring TV ratings that would make the Attitude Era jealous, while Bret was wrestling in front of 8,000 people in fucking Saginaw to some of the worst buyrates in WWE PPV history.

    Man, I really didn't want to pull out the big guns this early but Remix, your unbelievable stupidity in this thread has forced my hand. You REALLY shouldn't talk shit about things you CLEARLY know absolutely nothing about. Kay? Kay.
     
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  15. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    I thought the Japanese wrestlers weren't in this? Anyway, I'm voting for Kobashi. He's my favorite wrestler of all time and he's the greatest Japanese wrestler to ever step into the ring, period. That he can captivate so many English-speaking pro-wrestling fans without speaking a lick of English speaks volumes about his in-ring ability.

    Hart, on the other hand, is one of the most overrated workers to ever step into the ring. Although I didn't notice it at first, Ric Flair enlightened me to the fact that he literally put on the same match for the majority of his career. Furthermore, without the WWF sucking complete ass in the early to mid-90s and without an aggressive competitor in WCW, Hart would have been nothing more than an afterthought. Since the Montreal Screwjob was the first thing its curious and prying members *********ed over, Bret Hart can thank the IWC for remaining relevant.

    Oh, and Bret Hart is his own biggest fan; his autobiography proved this beyond a shadow of a doubt.
     
    #15
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  16. Ace Sleeper

    Ace Sleeper That's some grade 'A' protein!

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    I'm voting for the upset. I know Bret Hart should probably win this, but they're both great technical wrestlers, and it would be a great wrestling match. This one just comes down to preference for me. Hart's a great wrestler, but I've never been too big of a fan. I love Kenta's work, and I can't vote against him. When it comes down to it I can't see a way to put Bret over, in my heart other then his popularity.

    Go Kenta.
     
    #16
  17. Mr. Artistic guy

    Mr. Artistic guy Better Off This Way

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    I'm liking that there is some strong support and passion for both guys here, I'm currently watching this Kobashi match as we speak (props to xfear). I've just got one point to make, you might see it insignificant but hey. The fact that Bret Hart essentially worked the same match for so much of his career, which I think is a little over-simplified there was some wiggle-room for variation in there, is almost a testament. Let me explain. John Cena has a limited move-pool, we all know this and he gets major heat for this (I personally don't think it's the lack of moves that is the reason for guys not liking his ring work but that's another matter). Bret Hart works an even simpler match for a longer period in history and gets applauded for his ring-work. What does that mean?

    It means Bret must've been doing something all altering our perceptions, clouding our vision of his ability. Now it could be that he followed Hogan as the next truly big face, and Hogan's matches were so boring in terms of simplicity that a Santino match would have looked complex. But I don't think so. What it comes down to for me is what he said himself. From his HOF induction speech, "But I wrestled 23 years and I never injured one wrestler, ever, that I know of anyway". How can he work the same match and have people love him for it? How can he have never injured another wrestler, that's almost an inevitability in the business? The only possibility I can think of was that he was quite simply a fantastic worker. I mean obviously it possible to be a great worker and not have to change your match, if your a bad worker with the same match though, people notice.

    That's pretty much it. The fact his matches were similar is almost a complement to the guy, means he must've been fooling a whole lot of people or he was doing something that's slipping under the radar of a lot of people. I can't say personally, I think I'll come back to this thread tomorrow to make a fairer assessment, just thought that'd be food for thought.
     
    #17
  18. Tastycles

    Tastycles Turn Bayley heel

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    Kobashi is a good wrestler, and has a big following and all of that, it's true. Bret Hart is viewed as the second coming, when actually he probably isn't. Probably. However, I don't understand the point of these locations in the tournament if we don't let them influence the result. The truth is that while American stars can sometimes do well in Japan, the reverse is rarely true. When it comes to the very biggest American stars, these sorts of reversals are even rarer. With this in mind, I don't think there's any way in a million years that Kobashi would beat Bret Hart in America.
     
    #18
  19. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    I do agree with this, Tastycles, and I would wholeheartedly support this argument if it worked well in practice (on this forum, that is). However, I think the persuasiveness of such argument went out the door last year when Ricky Steamboat beat Antonio Inoki in the Tokyo Dome. Unfortunately, an overwhelming majority of people only use this argument when it bodes well for the wrestler they want to win.
     
    #19
    Tastycles likes this.
  20. X

    X RIP Sgt. Michael Paranzino / RIP CM

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    Kenta Kobashi has never lost a match in the United States. He pinned Samoa Joe clean in ROH during a time where Joe was basically undefeated for 3 years, holding the ROH World title longer than anyone. He then went on to defeat Joe and Low Ki, the first ROH World champion, 24 hours later. Also during this tour he absolutely destroyed the World champion of Harley Race's WLW promotion in St. Louis. It's only 3 matches, but he's 3-0 and kayfabe wise, there isn't a more respectable opponent he could beat in ROH than Joe. Joe was to ROH what like Hulk Hogan was to the WWF kayfabe wise.

    I don't see why it would be an issue for Kobashi to wrestle in the US. It's not like Bret is an American either after all. I'm not really even arguing this as a point for Kobashi in the match-up, just wanted to bring up that Kobashi has wrestled in the US and has never lost here, so it's not exactly a handicap for him to be wrestling in this country.


    I'm not going to go all gung-ho like I did last year with Kobashi in the tournament and if he loses to Bret here there's no shame at all in that, I just hope people present reasonable arguments for Bret when they vote for him (of which there are many) instead of silly shit like "Kobashi can't work" (still in tears from laughter at that one Remix) or that he couldn't win in the states because He's Japanese or some shit. Talk up Bret's many accomplishments and success if you want to argue in his favor, shit that actually justifies a vote for the Hitman.
     
    #20
  21. Tastycles

    Tastycles Turn Bayley heel

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    Listen to yourself, you are arguing the fact that he beat Samoa Joe at an event that was attended by about 500 people is proof that he is a winner in America. Read what I said. Wins are rare, as Kobashi's sole singles win shows, and wins against big stars are even rarer. He has no history of winning in big American promotions. He has no history of winning against American World Champions and has no history of winning in an American arena.

    A win in a promotion as small as ROH that tries to cater for a specialised type of audience is good for nothing in a match of this magnitude. I am also undefeated in North America, for the record, so I'll be looking for your support when I'm up against Hulk Hogan.

    Samoa Joe went into that match having won half of his matches since losing his title rematch to Austin Aries. Hardly Hoganesque. Show me one Japanese wrestler beating an American World Champion, and Canada is in America, for the record, in a big American arena, and I will show you 200 getting jobbed out.
     
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  22. Nate DaMac

    Nate DaMac Fuck erbody but me

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    I'm trying very hard to be impartial here and let the puro fans sway me, but I just can't do it. I grew up on Hart, he was my favorite wrestler during my entire childhood even into his heel character. It wasn't a whole lot to do with his moveset but rather his character. I loved Hart.

    I can't lie, I know nothing about Kobashi. I can't watch the matches, I am extremely intolerable of other languages other than English, and the style just doesn't do it for me. I want it to be clear, I am not bashing Kobashi for anything, I just know nothing about him.
     
    #22
  23. Mr. Truth

    Mr. Truth Real American Hero

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    So why are you voting then? I think if you don't know anything about one person, it makes your vote moot. If you know nothing, learn something. Look at the matches I linked in the Kobashi HQ or X linked in this thread. So what if you can't listen to other languages? Kobashi's in-ring storytelling are good enough so you'll know what's going on. There's the occasional pseudo-english the commentators will shout. I understand that you like Hart, but these tournaments are the perfect time to learn about other wrestlers. So please, educate yourself a bit.
     
    #23
  24. X

    X RIP Sgt. Michael Paranzino / RIP CM

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    Err, no Tasty, I'm not. I in fact went out of my way to say that I was NOT using his record in America as an argument for him. I literally explicitly said exactly that.

    I mean come on dude, atleast read my fucking post before attacking it.
     
    #24
  25. Nate DaMac

    Nate DaMac Fuck erbody but me

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    Well I was under the impression that one could use any criteria that they want, and while I have seen some absurd use of this, I think him being my favorite wrestler as a child is pretty solid.

    Well my vote still counts no matter what criteria I use, so it certainly isn't "moot." I'm thinking you don't really know what "moot" means.

    It's not as if I haven't tried man. It's just not my thing. I appreciate the effort and I fully respect those who are into it, but it's just not for me.

    While we're on this "educate yourself" kick, there should only be 1 space after a period, not 2. But anywho, I gave you guys a chance to sway my mind towards your guy, but it was an uphill battle. Little to nothing of what you guys had was going to change my mind. X almost had me though.
     
    #25

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