Flair Region, Fourth Round, 3 Stages of Hell: (1) Ric Flair vs. (5) CM Punk

[klunderbunker]

This is a fourth round match in the Flair Region and it is a 3 Stages of Hell match. It will be held at the Verizon Center in Washington D.C. Assume one week has passed since the previous round, meaning that all injuries might not have healed.

Rules: This is a 2/3 falls match. The first fall is a street fight, the second fall is a ladder match and the third fall is a steel cage match which can be won by pinfall, submission or escaping the cage.

#1. Ric Flair


Vs.

#5. CM Punk


​

Polls will be open for five days following a one day period for discussion. Voting will be based on who you feel is the greater of the two competitors. Post your reasons for why your pick should win below. Remember that this is non-spam and the most votes in the poll win. Any ties will be broken by the amount of posts of support for each candidate, with one vote per poster.


Also remember that this is a non-spam forum. If you post a response without giving a reason for your selection, it will be penalized for spam and deleted

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

On the fence. I smell shenanigans but I think Punk's MO as the top face takes him over Flair and his goons. Both of them have experience is these matches individually so no real upper hand there. I don't know who to go with.

Sway me.

 

[Dmbfantomas]

If Flair can get this to three falls, it's his for the taking. He is one of the masters of the cage match, Punk not nearly as much (his victory over Hardy for the title not withstanding).

To me, this match is actually decided in the first fall. Punk's expertise in ladder matches far outshines Flair, and same goes for Flair in the cage. Street fights are a toss up, but I do remember Vince kicking the shit out of Punk the night he hit a fan, and I believe that match was a street fight.

Vote Flair.

 

[Dan Severn's Moustache]

Considering the era he was in, Punk most certainly had an impressive run with the WWE title. His reign was the longest since Hogan's dominance from '84 to '88, and while it doesn't come close to scratching the length of Hogan's reign, it's still a prestigious statistic that Punk holds to his name.

However, the key word to this is statistic. A statistic can be used to support an argument, but it isn't in itself, an argument. When we look and analyse Punk's 434 day reign, most will agree (and I do myself) that Punk's reign was a good one. But the length of the reign doesn't necessarily equate to the quality of the reign, and Punk is as good an example as any to prove this.

At Raw 1000, Punk turned heel and hit the GTS on Rock. At this moment, most fans were convinced that Punk's days as champion were numbered; and this can be seen as a positive and a negative for a multitude of reasons. While it may have helped Punk escape with victories he most likely would have not obtained otherwise to further the length of his reign (Ryback in HIAC 2012 is a good example of this), it was extremely obvious that Rock would be the one to carry the championship into Wrestlemania, and that Punk would be the man to drop it to him. And most fans were right; Punk dropped the championship to Rock, and the reign went on for longer than it would have had it if The Rock was a full-time talent.

We also have to look at the quality of opponents Punk was defending the title against; Del Rio was arguably in his prime during this period, but I think it's safe to assume that Del Rio was definitely not on the same level as Punk, and he never will be. A lot of his other opponents were either pre-prime (Daniel Bryan and Dolph Ziggler), post-prime (Jericho, Kane and The Miz) or would not directly benefit from beating Punk in that position as much as Punk would by defending his title (Cena comes to mind due to his other feuds at the time). To summarise, Punk was never under much threat until The Rock, and that point, it became an obvious question of not if Rock would win the title, but when. While it's certainly respectable that Punk held the title for the time he did and during the time period he did, the quantity of the reign was not really indicative of the quality.

Of course, there are other areas where Punk can be given credit, such as his relatively clean victory over John Cena in a time where Cena was almost untouchable in clean losses, but the title reign is the main reason Punk gets as much credit as he does. I'm not saying his credit is unwarranted; Punk is incredibly talented, and achieved a lot in an era of 50/50 booking, but he was clearly a underling to Cena and his position as the #2 in the PG Era is debatable.

Ric Flair on the other hand, had a sole reign with the NWA title that lasted over twice as long as Punk's 434 day reign with the WWE Championship. What's more, it was a better and more influential reign than Punk's own. I'll give you that Flair's reign was coated with controversy (Starccade 1985 anyone?) and that often times he escaped with the title, but the fact remains he not only held onto the title, he also won it back and held it for extended periods of time once he lost his title to guys like a prime Dusty Rhodes and a prime Ricky Steamboat. Flair was firmly on top of the roost against talented opposition, and held this position for around 10 years. Punk only really had a prime of 3 years tops, and it wasn't close to the levels Flair was achieving.

Punk may have a slight advantage in a Street Fight due to his Muay Thai training, but Flair was renowned for taking an absolute beating and escaping with a victory; so I don't think Flair would find Punk any harder than his best opponents. Ladder matches arguably favour Punk slightly too due to his better track record, although Flair only took part in them in a much later part of his career, and still put out impressive performances in them; so again, I think a younger Flair would be able to go toe to toe with Punk. A steel cage favours Flair a fair amount though, but not to the extent that Punk wouldn't give him very close competition.

Ultimately, Punk puts up a very commendable effort, and probably takes it to the Steel Cage (I'd say he's more likely to win the Ladder Match personally, due to the nature of booking), but I think Flair would escape the cage with a little help from the Horseman's interference.

 

[Deoxyribonucleic A.C.I.D.]

Flair and Summartino had a very close Casket match, while Punk had easier work with Chris Jericho.

Flair is a greater wrestler than CM Punk, no question about that, but let's break down this match a little bit.

As quite others have said, CM Punk in untouchable in ladder matches. He's a 2-time MITB winner and has defeated a ladder match legend, Jeff Hardy in a TLC match and also Ryback. He also had impressive showings in other MITB matches and almsot won a 3rd one in 2013, before Heyman's interference.

Since Ric Flair's greatness far outweights Punk's, I'm gonna give the first fall to Flair. So now both are 1-1.

In the third fall, the Steel Cage match, is where stamina comes into play. Now, Flair did have a hard job against Bruno, but the guy has wrestled for 60+ minutes many times. I'm sure that stamina, isn't much of a problem. Same goes for CM Punk.

So, since this is a steel cage match, I don't think Punk has many chances. Flair does what he knows best and wins.

My vote to win is Flair, but if I see that Ric gets that far ahead, I'll vote Punk, just to give Ric some extra damage. This will be after all, a 2-1 victory for him, in my book, so it won't be easy.

 

[Dan Severn's Moustache]

Flair and Summartino had a very close Casket match, while Punk had easier work with Chris Jericho.

Flair is a greater wrestler than CM Punk, no question about that, but let's break down this match a little bit.

As quite others have said, CM Punk in untouchable in ladder matches. He's a 2-time MITB winner and has defeated a ladder match legend, Jeff Hardy in a TLC match and also Ryback. He also had impressive showings in other MITB matches and almsot won a 3rd one in 2013, before Heyman's interference.

Since Ric Flair's greatness far outweights Punk's, I'm gonna give the first fall to Flair. So now both are 1-1.

In the third fall, the Steel Cage match, is where stamina comes into play. Now, Flair did have a hard job against Bruno, but the guy has wrestled for 60+ minutes many times. I'm sure that stamina, isn't much of a problem. Same goes for CM Punk.

So, since this is a steel cage match, I don't think Punk has many chances. Flair does what he knows best and wins.

My vote to win is Flair, but if I see that Ric gets that far ahead, I'll vote Punk, just to give Ric some extra damage. This will be after all, a 2-1 victory for him, in my book, so it won't be easy.

Stamina from previous matches only really comes into play from the next round onwards, where it becomes a one night KOTR style tournament. Assume that both Punk and Flair are at their 100% best form for the start of this match, and for the start of the next one also.

 

[JGlass]

The gimmick kind of screws Punk in my mind. In this type of scenario, the plucky, anti-establishment challenger (Punk), gets to score a pinfall on the established champ (Flair), but then Flair gets to pull off two sneaky wins.

I see Punk winning the street fight, then Flair taking the ladder match and the steel cage. Punk brutalizes Flair in the first round and gets everyone thinking that there's no way Flair can climb the ladder. The Horsemen help distract Punk during the ladder match, which allows Flair to grab the belt, or whatever. Then the cage drops and the announcer note how the Horsemen will no longer be any help to Flair, but Flair wins the match in spite of that by climbing out of the cage all coward-like.

In my mind, that's the most likely way this match plays out. That is putting aside the, "Who had a better career," argument, because obviously it's Flair. He was also more influential. He's also probably a bigger tool, but I don't know if you can factor that into this.

I'm not going to vote in this match, because fuck Ric Flair, but he's definitely the winner here.

 

[Khalifa]

The gimmick kind of screws Punk in my mind. In this type of scenario, the plucky, anti-establishment challenger (Punk), gets to score a pinfall on the established champ (Flair), but then Flair gets to pull off two sneaky wins.

I see Punk winning the street fight, then Flair taking the ladder match and the steel cage. Punk brutalizes Flair in the first round and gets everyone thinking that there's no way Flair can climb the ladder. The Horsemen help distract Punk during the ladder match, which allows Flair to grab the belt, or whatever. Then the cage drops and the announcer note how the Horsemen will no longer be any help to Flair, but Flair wins the match in spite of that by climbing out of the cage all coward-like.

In my mind, that's the most likely way this match plays out. That is putting aside the, "Who had a better career," argument, because obviously it's Flair. He was also more influential. He's also probably a bigger tool, but I don't know if you can factor that into this.

I'm not going to vote in this match, because fuck Ric Flair, but he's definitely the winner here.

This is pretty much my thought process but with the street fight and ladder match scenarios switched around. Coco made a good point in the bar room thread were he said Punk is the king of ladder matches. It's pretty much true as he's won two money in the banks and has beaten arguably one of the greatest ladder match guys despite the record in Jeff Hardy. Probably won another one somewhere but it's not coming to my mind right now.

I see the Horseman coming into the street fight and killing Punk. After Flairs got the first fall management come out and say Horseman are barred from ringside. Flair gets a bit cocky, Punk comes back and takes the second fall. Punk looks like he is going to get the third fall in the cage but Flair wil do some bullshit to get the win. Charles Robinson as ref allows Flair to win maybe. Something like that anyways.

Flair in 3.

 

[NSL]

A Three Stages of Hell is going to make it to the third fall...we all know this. And usually, that would work against Punk. But he's in much better shape than Flair, and is coming off a much easier win. Flair fought in a Casket Match against a badass in Sammartino.

I'd say Flair wins the first fall, because he's a heel, and that's how it works, but Punk would win the Ladder Match, and then eventually the Cage Match, because Flair may not have any blood left in his body by the end of it.

 

[Alex]

The thing is All of these gimmick matches kind of favour Punk.

Yes Flair is awesome and is one of the greatest ever but he's not really known for gimmick matches. Punk has had his fair share of gimmick matches and won them. Heck he beat Jeff Hardy in a ladder match (Hardy's speciality) and cage match (another one Hardy is good in) within the space of a week. And Punk is hardcore enough to take it to anyone in a street fight. I mean he beat Jericho and I think Raven (hardcore guy himself) . That and Flair bleeds when you graze him and all these matches have a tendency to draw blood.

If it were an iron man match etc It would be Flair but it's not so it goes to Punk

 

[Dmbfantomas]

The thing is All of these gimmick matches kind of favour Punk.

Yes Flair is awesome and is one of the greatest ever but he's not really known for gimmick matches. Punk has had his fair share of gimmick matches and won them. Heck he beat Jeff Hardy in a ladder match (Hardy's speciality) and cage match (another one Hardy is good in) within the space of a week. And Punk is hardcore enough to take it to anyone in a street fight. I mean he beat Jericho and I think Raven (hardcore guy himself) . That and Flair bleeds when you graze him and all these matches have a tendency to draw blood.

If it were an iron man match etc It would be Flair but it's not so it goes to Punk

Flair made Terry Funk say "I Quit", Punk got his ass kicked by a 66-ish year old man, and was so rattled that he punched a fan. Ric Flair is the KING of the cage match. He was typically very successful when he performed in them, against far greater talents than Jeff Hardy. Punk has it on Ladder matches, that's about it. Ric Flair is a much bigger star than Punk, and that's saying something considering how unbelievably overrated Flair was/is.

 

[NSL]

Yes Flair is awesome and is one of the greatest ever but he's not really known for gimmick matches.

Can you name two War Games matches that Flair wasn't in? I know the Horsemen never won a televised one, but to say Flair isn't known for gimmick matches is borderline insane. Flair's face being grated against the steel is one of the iconic images from 1980's NWA.

I'm voting for Punk, but I won't undersell Flair in the process.

 

[Alex]

Can you name two War Games matches that Flair wasn't in? I know the Horsemen never won a televised one, but to say Flair isn't known for gimmick matches is borderline insane. Flair's face being grated against the steel is one of the iconic images from 1980's NWA.

I'm voting for Punk, but I won't undersell Flair in the process.

I will admit I don't know loads about Flair's history pre 1991 and even then it's a bit vague. It's just everyone talks about his wrestling clinic's etc

 

[Slyfox696]

As much as I think Ric Flair is terribly overrated, the fact is he's far and away more accomplished than CM Punk. CM Punk was essentially a flash in the pan, a man whose career under the big lights essentially comes down to a promo in which he got to break the rules everyone else has to abide by and a great match with one of the greatest wrestlers of all time in John Cena.

No way would CM Punk ever go over Ric Flair in their respective primes. Flair takes this in a walk.

 

[enviousdominous]

A few occurrences in this tournament have made me extremely happy as a WZ forum jockey, so I'll honestly be happy with whomever takes the tournament this year.

I'm a predictable poster, and to live up to my reputation I'm going to go with Punk in this contest.

I see the street fight favoring Flair. He's more likely to bring out his posse to wipe the mat with Punk who will hold out for just long enough to remind us of the fact that on multiple occasions he single-handedly defeated The Shield. But... Ric has way too many tricks up his sleeve to let a street fight go to Punk.

I see the ladder match being all Punk. Members of the locker room chase off Ric Flair's henchmen after the first fall, and punk is allowed a minute and a half to recuperate. Punk comes at Flair on all cylinders, demolishing Flair with kendo stick and chair shots. Flair's biggest spots in ladder matches have involved him taking huge bumps off the ladder, while Punk has a reputation for winning ladder matches. The back to back Money in the Bank winner makes an example of Flair in this match and easily takes the... whatever they suspended over the ring and forces a third fall.

For the steel cage match, I'm giving the edge to Punk. Just going by statistics, Punk has more notable wins in a steel cage and less notable losses in a steel cage. While Flair has beaten the likes of Hogan, Harley and Randy Savage in steel cage matches, he's also lost them to (no joke) Vince Russo, Arn Anderson and Lex Luger. In steel cage matches Punk has wins over John Cena and The Big Show, which I might add were never reciprocated to those performers. Add to all that the fact that Ric Flair has never won a war games match, and his abilities in the cage seem to diminish further. I acknowledge that Flair beat HHH in a steel cage match in 2005, but that doesn't undermine a steel cage loss to Vince Russo.

The two fight until there's only enough strength left in Punk's soul to escape the cage.

Vote CM Punk.

 

[Slyfox696]

While Flair has beaten the likes of Hogan, Harley and Randy Savage in steel cage matches

You mean three of the greatest all time?

he's also lost them to (no joke) Vince Russo, Arn Anderson and Lex Luger.

Aside from Russo, which did NOT come during Flair's prime, those guys were tremendous professional wrestlers. What's wrong with losing to either of them?

In steel cage matches Punk has wins over John Cena and The Big Show, which I might add were never reciprocated to those performers.

So Punk doesn't put people over? Sounds like a ******** to me.

Add to all that the fact that Ric Flair has never won a war games match

Irrelevant since this isn't a Wargames match. I'm pretty certain Punk has never won a barbed wire match.

I acknowledge that Flair beat HHH in a steel cage match in 2005, but that doesn't undermine a steel cage loss to Vince Russo.

Was that loss in Flair's prime? No?

Do you really think a guy who essentially carried the southern half of professional wrestling for nearly a decade isn't as good as a guy who couldn't even carry his own promotion as champion? Really?

Flair > Punk. And I don't like Flair.

 

[nightmare]

I could see Punk taking round one in a bloody fight, then Flair calling the troops helping him win round two. Here comes the cage. Sealing Flair in for Punk to get his revenge like so many faces have done against heels before. Flair sells as the coward, realizing he is now all alone & resorting to his bag of tricks that lure Punk in & keep him off his game as Ric goes to work. Punk gets his moments, finally able to put a hurting on Ric, but again Flair plays to his strengths & the dirtiest player in the game shines.


I see Ric climbing & Punk pulls him off the cage for a GTS with the crowd roaring, but a quick rake of the eyes stops that. Flair shoves Punk into the cage, rolls him up with a handful of tights & scores the three.


I love Punk more than Flair. I just cant see him pulling this match off. I know his run goes down in history as a big deal, but Flair has more pages in that book. He was the man, before Punk laced his boots & Flair's multiple titles are more than enough to justify the legacy vote.

 

[rbv13]

Flat out Flair finds a way to get it done. Spanning so many generations Flair has found a way to rise to the top. Thus why he is regarded amongst the best ever in nearly every category important to the business. Punk was the longest reigning transitional champ.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

I wouldn't call either guy dominant, so it comes down to ring smarts. Flair would find a way to win in a tournament like this. If it were a one-off match, I could see an argument for Punk. In a scenario like this, I can't get Flair having a gameplan out of my mind. Vote goes to Flair.

 

[Bernkastel]

Yeah, Flair wins easily. Bigger draw, better champion, more longevity, better consistency, far more profound impact on the industry and its fans, and accolades out the wazoo. Fans in 2016 still chant "Woooo" every time someone does a chop even if Flair isn't in the ring. It's annoying, sure, but it's done in appreciation. Let's see if Chicago is still chanting "CM Punk!" in 2036.

Vote Flair.

 

[enviousdominous]

You mean three of the greatest all time?

Why you gotta' be so smarmy?

I could have added the caveat "three of the greatest of all time", which -- in spite of the shit I've talked before -- they most certainly are. Duly noted.

Aside from Russo, which did NOT come during Flair's prime, those guys were tremendous professional wrestlers. What's wrong with losing to either of them?

I should not have used their names in the same sentence as Vince Russo, that was an oversight on my part.

If we agree that the losses to Lex Luger and Arn Anderson were losses when Ric was in his prime, then we agree that prime Ric wasn't invincible. While Arn is most certainly a legend, he's never come close to capturing a major world championship. While Lex Luger has been a world champion, he's nowhere near the status of CM Punk when it comes to being over.

So Punk doesn't put people over? Sounds like a ******** to me.

Well if Ric Flair and CM Punk were fighting in a "who can be less of a ********" match, I'd be willing to argue that point.

Irrelevant since this isn't a Wargames match. I'm pretty certain Punk has never won a barbed wire match.
Was that loss in Flair's prime?

Oh good grief. Can we get together sometime so we can draw up a diagram of where exactly we should be examining Ric Flair to determine what wins and losses are meaningful in this debate?

War Games matches were fought in a cage, the cage apparently put Ric at a disadvantage.

No?

I figure we can hack this out at Billy Bowlegs, if we're going to fight we should at least earn money for charity while we do it.

Do you really think a guy who essentially carried the southern half of professional wrestling for nearly a decade isn't as good as a guy who couldn't even carry his own promotion as champion?

Well when you put it that way I... WAIT A MINUTE!

Your Jedi mind tricks have no effect on me good Sir. If you're going to make a point about the potential of both men while using only their ability to carry a promotion, we'll argue that point. Dictating it to me as being axiomatic is fair considering your status, but if you're not going to respect my intelligence then I really don't feel like pestering you.

I'm pretty sure that I know what your angle is in all this, and I wish you all the power in the world in your endeavor.

Really?

A thousand apologies if I've let you down, but yeah. Really.

Flair > Punk. And I don't like Flair.

Well, believe it or not; I really do value your opinion. We're not going to agree on everything, and obviously this is an example of why.

 

[Slyfox696]

Why you gotta' be so smarmy?

I could have added the caveat "three of the greatest of all time", which -- in spite of the shit I've talked before -- they most certainly are. Duly noted.

Not smarmy at all, but your own post tried to diminish the accomplishment. That's what I was noting and correcting.

I should not have used their names in the same sentence as Vince Russo, that was an oversight on my part.

Glad we agree.

If we agree that the losses to Lex Luger and Arn Anderson were losses when Ric was in his prime

I didn't agree to that.

While Lex Luger has been a world champion, he's nowhere near the status of CM Punk when it comes to being over.

False. Unequivocally false.

You cannot watch that video and continue claiming Punk was ever more over. The fact is Punk was never the top guy in his own promotion. Ever. CM Punk was always, at best, second place.

Well if Ric Flair and CM Punk were fighting in a "who can be less of a ********" match, I'd be willing to argue that point.

I thought we were arguing about who is better. I'm pretty certain the rules of the WZ Tournament allow us to look at all criteria.

War Games matches were fought in a cage, the cage apparently put Ric at a disadvantage.

War Games is a team effort, not an individual.

Also, your original claim that Flair never won a War Games match is false. WrestleWar '91, the Horsemen defeated Sting, Pillman and the Steiners. I've watched the VHS of that show many times. I thought about mentioning it last time, but considering War Games has nothing to do with this, I didn't think it particularly relevant. But I guess that doesn't really matter much to you.

Well when you put it that way I... WAIT A MINUTE!

Your Jedi mind tricks have no effect on me good Sir. If you're going to make a point about the potential of both men while using only their ability to carry a promotion, we'll argue that point. Dictating it to me as being axiomatic is fair considering your status, but if you're not going to respect my intelligence then I really don't feel like pestering you.

I'm pretty sure that I know what your angle is in all this, and I wish you all the power in the world in your endeavor.

My angle is to point out that Punk is not on Flair's level and never has been.

Well, believe it or not; I really do value your opinion. We're not going to agree on everything, and obviously this is an example of why.

You don't have to agree on who you like, but you can't really dispute the fact Flair > Punk.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

I would like to add that CM Punk, also, has never won a wargames.

 

[klunderbunker]

A few of Ric Flair's major victories in cage matches:

Hulk Hogan
Randy Savage
Vader
Harley Race
Ronnie Garvin

Yes I said RONNIE GARVIN. Flair has won quite a few cage matches over some major names. The idea that he can't beat CM Punk in one is laughable at best.

 

[Tastycles]

I like CM Punk, I don't really like Ric Flair. I think the accomplishments of Ric Flair are wildly exaggerated, because while he was in his pomp, people like Brutus Beefcake were on shows drawing three times the audience. But whatever, Punk just wasn't ever at that level. Flair would win this I think.

Right at the end of Flair's career, he had a tag match with Punk against someone on ECW - I think maybe La Familia - and Punk was totally enamoured by Flair, so Punk clearly thinks Flair is a legend, too.