First Round: San Francisco - Bryan Danielson vs. Diamond Dallas Page

[Big Sexy]

Hogan never had an official reign with the AWA title. Andre never had one at all, and neither did Ventura, or anyone Heenan managed. AWA was pretty much the Gagne show, and that hurt it.

So because some of the big stars they had didn't have title reigns the promotion wasn't good? Guys like Dibiase, Piper, and Andre never had official world title reigns in the WWE does that mean it sucks? Your logic fails.

By the way, Heenan managed Nick Bockwinkel who happened to be the AWA's champion during the entire time Hogan and company were there so at least get your facts right.

How does it not compare? You have yet to explain how ROH does not compare to ECW. Give an actual reason.

ECW had a bigger following, was more successful, and it was able to do all of this when the competition was at its best.

Let me try and explain what you're doing here.

Let's suppose you just wrote an excellent fantasy novel. It's original, it's creative, and it's just overall well-written. Then, just before you go to publish it, I come in and take a giant shit on it.

Why? Because it's not Harry Potter.

That is not what I'm doing at all. ROH is not on the level of any of the major promotions in terms of overall entertainment. They are about one main thing and that is providing a good, technical, in ring product. That only appeals to one segment of wrestling fans. The bigger promotions like WWE, WCW, and TNA have provided a little bit of everything. They are able to appeal in some way to all different kinds of wrestling fans. If ROH really was this great promotion then they would be doing more then some shows on HDNet.

 

[gd]

I went Danielson here. Obviously, he's fucked kayfabe wise, but who the hell cares about that? Not me, at least not in this particular matchup. Looking purely at Danielson matches, he's one of the best in the world. He's one of the main reasons ROH has become slightly more than just another independent. He's gained a multitude of fans for a reason.

DDP was alright, but not legendary or anything. Not sure if you could even consider him one of the top 5 WCW champs of all time. Even if you can, so what? I'll take the most outstanding indy guy over a decent WCW guy any day.

 

[X]

Wow, so much ignorance in this thread really disappointing too because alot of it is coming from some people who are normally very intelligent and logical. Everyone here shitting on Danielson cracks me up, oh no the ROH title means NOOOTHINNNGG!!!! but then these same assholes go into threads and talk up Rick Martel holding a territorial title for 500+ days or some shit like that, as though that's any more credible of a title to hold than the ROH title is. The ROH title is the legit 4th most important Heavyweight title in the United States behind the two WWE world titles and the TNA title, and most of the men to hold that belt have gone on to great success in either the WWE (CM Punk) or TNA (Samoa Joe). Stop the ROH hate people, because it's fucking absurd, ROH is just as credible and important as any of the major territories in the 80s, but I don't see any of you shitting on the Von Erichs for holding the WCCW world title when it was probably around the 10th most important title in the US at that time. So save your anti-smark bullshit for someone who cares.

Now that said, I love both of these men and couldn't decide who to give my vote to, so I simply looked at the results, saw Danielson was losing by about 10 votes and gave him my vote in order to make this a closer match up. I'm a fan of both men and would be happy to see either one advance, but sheesh people stop the Danielson hate, he's just as much accomplished and successful as your late 80s WWF darlings like Ted DiBiase or Rick Martel, who you're all up in arms about losing.

 

[Tenta]

but sheesh people stop the Danielson hate, he's just as much accomplished and successful as your late 80s WWF darlings like Ted DiBiase or Rick Martel, who you're all up in arms about losing.

For the record, I plan on voting Rhyno over Martel.

I don't hate Danielson for working in ROH; I actually feel as though it's a good promotion, and that I gave him due for beating Kenta Kobashi, as well as Joe and Punk. My hate for Danielson spawns from the people that say "Danielson's a better wrestler, he'll win." The fact is, X, DDP has beaten countless of wrestlers who are better than him. He beat Chris Benoit clean, right in the middle of the ring, and beat Chris Jericho in similar fashion. I have shown the tapes to prove that DDP has, indeed wrestled against better men, and has come out on top. Thus, any argument that DDP can't win this match because Danielson is a better wrestler is absolute shit. The fact is, both are good to great wrestlers, but DDP's place in history is a little more solid than Danielson's. I never picked a fight by saying Danielson has done nothing in the WWE or TNA: People assumed that's where I was taking it, and tried to justify their less forumulated arguments by saying, "Oh, you're just a mark!" Truth is, I like ROH, but it isn't on the same level that WWE or TNA is. That isn't a bad thing, as ROH probably has the best wrestling going on it's show. But it'd be negligent to ignore the concept of drawing. Both were great draws for their company, and Danielson will probably be a star in the WWE, but selling out an arena in the WWE or TNA, or in this case, WCW, is more impressive than ROH, to me.

It's not that I don't enjoy ROH, I feel they have the best wrestling. But I have to accept that, at the moment, ROH is Danielson's biggest claim to fame. And being World Champion in WCW does hold more weight to me than being world champion in ROH.

 

[ZeroVX]

So because some of the big stars they had didn't have title reigns the promotion wasn't good? Guys like Dibiase, Piper, and Andre never had official world title reigns in the WWE does that mean it sucks? Your logic fails.

Who had the most title reigns in the company? The guy who owned it. It's one thing for the owner to hold it once, but more than everyone else? And holding down Hogan proved to be a giant mistake. That's why the promotion wasn't good.

ECW had a bigger following, was more successful, and it was able to do all of this when the competition was at its best.

ECW did not have worldwide popularity. Their following was mainly in their hometown of Philadelphia. ROH wrestlers have traveled to Japan and gained popularity there, while Japanese wrestlers acknowledged ROH's worth and traveled here to wrestle for them.

That is not what I'm doing at all. ROH is not on the level of any of the major promotions in terms of overall entertainment. They are about one main thing and that is providing a good, technical, in ring product. That only appeals to one segment of wrestling fans. The bigger promotions like WWE, WCW, and TNA have provided a little bit of everything. They are able to appeal in some way to all different kinds of wrestling fans. If ROH really was this great promotion then they would be doing more then some shows on HDNet.

And it can be argued that ECW focused more on hardcore, bloody brawls. Yeah, they had a couple of storylines that were notable, but that's not what they're famous for. They're famous for crazy, bloody fights and creating a division in an era where blood was almost never seen in wrestling. Likewise, ROH is about giving solid wrestling in an era where sports entertainment rules.

 

[Big Sexy]

Who had the most title reigns in the company? The guy who owned it. It's one thing for the owner to hold it once, but more than everyone else? And holding down Hogan proved to be a giant mistake. That's why the promotion wasn't good.

Gagne shouldn't have given himself the title that much but it still doesn't mean the promotion sucked. Yes holding Hogan down was a mistake as well, I'm not arguing any of that. I'm just saying the AWA was a superior promotion to ROH regardless of how the booking was done.

ECW did not have worldwide popularity. Their following was mainly in their hometown of Philadelphia. ROH wrestlers have traveled to Japan and gained popularity there, while Japanese wrestlers acknowledged ROH's worth and traveled here to wrestle for them.

Yes ECW never had any worldwide popularity, but let's not forget there cross promotion with the WWE. That was huge for them and really brought them more in the main stream. I just believe ECW had a bigger impact on the wrestling industry then ROH ever will.

And it can be argued that ECW focused more on hardcore, bloody brawls. Yeah, they had a couple of storylines that were notable, but that's not what they're famous for. They're famous for crazy, bloody fights and creating a division in an era where blood was almost never seen in wrestling. Likewise, ROH is about giving solid wrestling in an era where sports entertainment rules.

ECW still was able to provide good story lines and great mic work to entertain the fans outside of just the hardcore aspect. Guys like Steve Austin, Mick Foley, and Raven cut some tremendous promos during their time in ECW and their story lines were far more entertaining then anything ROH has ever done.

 

[ZeroVX]

Gagne shouldn't have given himself the title that much but it still doesn't mean the promotion sucked. Yes holding Hogan down was a mistake as well, I'm not arguing any of that. I'm just saying the AWA was a superior promotion to ROH regardless of how the booking was done.

How? What made AWA so great when they're more remembered for everything they did wrong? Repeating the same thing over and over doesn't make your point any stronger.

Yes ECW never had any worldwide popularity, but let's not forget there cross promotion with the WWE. That was huge for them and really brought them more in the main stream. I just believe ECW had a bigger impact on the wrestling industry then ROH ever will.

The cross-promo with WWE helped people in the US give ECW more attention. It did not give them any more notability outside of the northern states. And you can't say ECW had more of an impact when ROH is still around. When ROH shuts down, whenever that may be, then we can make a fair comparison and see. But now, we can't do that.

ECW still was able to provide good story lines and great mic work to entertain the fans outside of just the hardcore aspect. Guys like Steve Austin, Mick Foley, and Raven cut some tremendous promos during their time in ECW and their story lines were far more entertaining then anything ROH has ever done.

And ROH has had their notable storylines too. CM Punk VS Raven is the most talked about feud in ROH. Jimmy Jacobs VS B.J. Whitmer is notable as well. ROH is known for their solid wrestling, but they can have bloody feuds when they want to.

 

[Big Sexy]

How? What made AWA so great when they're more remembered for everything they did wrong? Repeating the same thing over and over doesn't make your point any stronger.

I've already said why they were great. During their peak they had a lot of stars, a great overall product, and were almost on par with the WWE and NWA. ROH has never and will never be anywhere near the major promotions.

The cross-promo with WWE helped people in the US give ECW more attention. It did not give them any more notability outside of the northern states. And you can't say ECW had more of an impact when ROH is still around. When ROH shuts down, whenever that may be, then we can make a fair comparison and see. But now, we can't do that.

Of course I can say it. Thus far ECW has had a much bigger impact. Could ROH eventually pass it? maybe, but probably not.

And ROH has had their notable storylines too. CM Punk VS Raven is the most talked about feud in ROH. Jimmy Jacobs VS B.J. Whitmer is notable as well. ROH is known for their solid wrestling, but they can have bloody feuds when they want to.

None of those story lines compare to the stuff ECW was doing. ECW was a far more entertaining promotion outside of the ring then ROH has been.

This has now turned into a ROH vs ECW and AWA debate and I'm not going to continue to repeat my responses that you obviously aren't comprehending. If you'd like to debate the actual match up I will continue.

 

[deem]

I vote DDP, simply based on the volume of top level successes he has had compared to the American Dragon. I do prefer Dragon in the ring, probably prefer him in general as a character, but the credentials say it all and give the vote to DDP - it's really, really hard to kayfabe justify Dragon.

 

[shattered dreams]

All those posts about the "innovative" diamond cutter are quite amusing. It is DDP vs Danielson and people are using innovative when arguing for DDP. I feel like I am on crazy pills!