Face it, WE are out of touch, not Vince.

[Radical]

If you've been following WWE programming the last few months and if you've seen the SmackDown Spoilers for this week (even if you haven't, you'll understand what's happening), it will become clear to you that apparently it is US who are out of touch, not Vince.


The CROWD LOVES The Bunny and John Cena helping Dean Ambrose (because he can't do it on his own) take out the not-at-all-intimidating-anymore-because-they've-been-buried-by-Cena guys like Kane, Rollins and the Wyatt Family.

The CROWD LOVED IT. The second hour of Raw that had Divas segments and mascots was the highest watched hour.

So apparently, that is what the crowd wants. They do not want to see WWE programming where Cena loses and has to deal with losing to new up and coming Superstars. They don't want to see gritty programming where The Bunny is introduced and then promptly squashed to hell by The Wyatt Family. They don't want to see any of that because it's not PG enough for the kiddies.

WWE is officially not at all for adults. It's for the kids who love John Cena and convince their parents to take them to the shows and buy the merchandise.

Do you agree?

 

[Messiah]

Yes we know we're out of touch.. It's nothing new.. WWE changes and evolves and we don't want to accept it. There's nothing wrong with that.

 

[TheHitMark-SirJoseOle]

WWE is still the gold standard in professional wrestling, so much that they can supersede what was once an awesome term with something as lame as "sports entertainment", and as a result referring to it as "professional wrestling" is according to them unacceptable.

Personally, I don't think I've EVER changed as a fan...EVER. The wrestling world itself has changed, and well WWE is THE business since alternatives like TNA have never had the ability to even be on the same spectrum as JCP/WCW or the AWA. So with that said, it's their game to play the way they see fit.

I still applaud the abilities of all the talents in WWE to do what they are doing, I commend them for having the drive to be a WWE performer, however the presentation to me in no way has the same heart and soul it once had.

Plot devices like the Intercontinental Title and the United States Title mean nothing, the tag team title has gotten a little more attention in recent time but still even that doesn't have the same emphasis it used to.

The Bunny, I'm not feeling it, but it's what it is. It's everything else about WWE that irks me and makes me a shell of the fan I used to be. To anyone younger than me on this forum that contributes to this thread, all you need is to go on to the WWE Network and see what you missed when wrestling really WAS something.

 

[TheICChampion]

While I can certainly see that being true, I have to wonder why Vince doesn't seem to let things play out before stopping them in their tracks or completely changing them right in the middle or at the beginning. And why he doesn't seem to want anyone else rising up to help Cena at the top of the card whenever he may need a break. Being the sole man that the company relies on most of the time for 10 years has to be tiring, no? We may be out of touch, but so may Vinnie Mac. Surely it's not too much to ask once a superstar is on the rise to give them the time they may need to make it? To let them prove themselves without constantly changing everything all the time, or suddenly dropping their push for no adequately explained reason.

 

[JoeyJoeJoe]

Do you agree?

Given the consistently low ratings for RAW, I'm going to disagree. Outside of WrestleMania, what has there been to really recommend WWE programming in the past several months? It's been the same old, same old with the same tepid results. What does McMahon have to show for all the last minute changes he's dropped on people?

 

[Franchize1990]

If you've been following WWE programming the last few months and if you've seen the SmackDown Spoilers for this week (even if you haven't, you'll understand what's happening), it will become clear to you that apparently it is US who are out of touch, not Vince.

I believe Vince is just following where ever the money is going. If more people, are buying Cena merchandise than everyone else combined, obviously Cena is going to be your headliner more times than not. I even believe that CM Punk started to become a top merch guy while he began his historic run as WWE Champion.

The CROWD LOVES The Bunny and John Cena helping Dean Ambrose (because he can't do it on his own) take out the not-at-all-intimidating-anymore-because-they've-been-buried-by-Cena guys like Kane, Rollins and the Wyatt Family.

Not to mention that the Bunny trended #1 worldwide on a night where Monday Night Football, the premier of The Blacklist and The Big Bang Theory were all on that night. If enough people talk about a wrestler, he or she more than likely will start to become more featured on the show. Zack Ryder is an example of it working for a brief period of time.

So apparently, that is what the crowd wants. They do not want to see WWE programming where Cena loses and has to deal with losing to new up and coming Superstars. They don't want to see gritty programming where The Bunny is introduced and then promptly squashed to hell by The Wyatt Family. They don't want to see any of that because it's not PG enough for the kiddies.

Money talks.

WWE is officially not at all for adults. It's for the kids who love John Cena and convince their parents to take them to the shows and buy the merchandise.

It's for the families (key word, not kiddies) who tune in every week, go see the shows, have a good time and shell out more money than we do. If we, and when I say "we" I mean the IWC in general, want to see a more mature product, we need to put our money where our mouths are. How often did we, pre Network era, stream a PPV for free instead of buying the show? How often do we order something from our favorite wrestler from WWE Shop as opposed to finding a cheaper solution from a third party website? Effecting Vince McMahon's wallet, whether positively or negatively, would send a louder message than just complaining about a certain aspect of the product.

Do you agree?

I believe that we tend to try and separate buisness and what we see from a creative standpoint on the tv screen when they go hand in hand with each other. Do we care that #BunnyMania was a top trending topic on the most active social media site? More than likely no but to criticize the company, which is business first, for trying to squeeze some additional money out of something is, for lack of a better word, dumb.

Another note: There sure does seem to be quite a bit Cena hate in this opening post

 

[Radical]

I believe Vince is just following where ever the money is going. If more people, are buying Cena merchandise than everyone else combined, obviously Cena is going to be your headliner more times than not. I even believe that CM Punk started to become a top merch guy while he began his historic run as WWE Champion.

Ya, but who else really would have a shot at his merch sales? No one else is BUILT UP like John Cena OR they have already been built up (Orton, Kane, Big Show, Henry, etc.) and so their merch is no longer an important thing to desire.

Ambrose has the best chance right now at nearing Cena's merch sales. Maybe Wyatt too but he hasn't truly got a good enough push for people to get behind his merch sales.

I mean, did Austin or Rock sell tons of merch before they were champs? No. They at least won the IC title pretty early on and got come credibility and then fans got behind them more and more.

It's for the families (key word, not kiddies) who tune in every week, go see the shows, have a good time and shell out more money than we do. If we, and when I say "we" I mean the IWC in general, want to see a more mature product, we need to put our money where our mouths are. How often did we, pre Network era, stream a PPV for free instead of buying the show? How often do we order something from our favorite wrestler from WWE Shop as opposed to finding a cheaper solution from a third party website? Effecting Vince McMahon's wallet, whether positively or negatively, would send a louder message than just complaining about a certain aspect of the product.

Yes, money does talk and that's what I'm kind of saying... I guess WE are out of touch because if Vince is making money from families paying butt loads for Cena merch and shows where Cena headlines then that's what Vince feels is best to keep promoting.

But, if other people don't like it it doesn't make sense for us to BUY tickets to the shows and buy merch and buy PPVs or the Network if we don't enjoy what we are getting. What WOULD make Vince have to change things up is if he saw a dramatic drop in ticket sales, merch for Cena and Network subscriptions.

Another note: There sure does seem to be quite a bit Cena hate in this opening post

It's not Cena hate. I don't hate the guy. I dislike sometimes when he's put in a program with other guys who he makes them look bad.

But if money is telling Vince to milk the Cena cow until it's dry at the expense of some Superstar pushes then that's what he'll do.

That's what I'm saying. As much as wrestling fans on the Internet complain about WWE today it won't change if money is telling Vince that WWE can do no wrong by having Cena beat everybody and that having a bunch of Divas segments and very cheesy comedy like Bunnies and mini bulls on Raw is somehow helping then that will keep happening.

When will Vince change the show? If people stop coming to the shows in large numbers and if those who are there are silent during Cena matches. If people stop buying Cena merch by significant numbers. If ratings drop dramatically during Cena segments. That's when Vince would try to change the show to something he thinks would get more viewers.

But if Cena still gets loud chants, shows are still selling well in comparison to recent years, if Cena merch is selling like crazy, if ratings stay pretty steady then why in the world would Vince keep Cena away from the main events and looking strong? And why would he stop having mascots and Divas take up a lot of time?

Because apparently he is IN TOUCH with what his paying customers want and we are not.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

I agree and disagree, depending upon the circumstances.

There are times in which Vince makes certain choices based on how he feels they'll play out in the long run. There are times in which his decision might not be immediately popular with some fans but, a good amount of the time, it turns out to be the right decision. For example, putting the title back on John Cena after Daniel Bryan was injured may not have been seen as overly fresh in the eyes of many but, in actuality, it really was the best choice under the circumstances and it led to Brock Lesnar's win of the title becoming a big deal and memorable moment. As of right now, for instance, The Bunny seems to be over and Vince is going to milk it for all he can. Hardcore fans might not be all that into it but, as has been said in so many threads, hardcore fans don't make up the vast majority of pro wrestling's audience.

However, there are also times when it seems Vince is doing something or has something happen in an angle that he personally wants to see. Vince McMahon loves corny comedy, it's heavily reflected in many of the various "sports entertainment" segments & matches that come about. A lot of the time, these segments don't really do much except fill up air time. They don't advance storylines, the storylines are often nonexistent or are so silly that people dismiss them as irrelevant even if they do wind up producing a few momentary cheap laughs. They don't advance any of the wrestlers because the fans often don't take the wrestlers seriously because of the relatively harmless nonsense that goes on. For instance, Adam Rose & The Bunny aren't going to be wrestling for the tag titles anytime soon, nor should they be in my opinion because it'd be a big step backwards for the tag team division. However, if Vince personally wanted to see it, he'd go down that road while completely disregarding all the progress and positive steps forward the tag team division has made in the past couple of years.

Are WE out of touch? To some degree, in comparison to your average fan, I'd say we probably are as a whole. I don't mind a few "sports entertainment" angles or matches every so often, never really have. Some of them can actually be a lot of fun and downright entertaining. However, I do prefer more serious stuff because it's just how things should be, much of the time anyhow. For instance, I prefer John Cena in the more serious light he's been portrayed in for the vast majority of the past 1.5 years or so because I just find it more enjoyable when Cena takes his opponents seriously instead of coming off as though they ultimately represent no real threat to him.

However, a very healthy number of internet fans can be labeled as being out of touch because they resent the fact that WWE is a business and is run like a business instead of catering to whatever whim some of them have. A good deal of the time, some fans want EXACTLY what they want, when they want it, how they want it and will accept little to no deviation without criticizing things.

My biggest complaint about Vince McMahon is how inconsistent and generally unstable he can be sometimes. What I mean by that is he'll often change aspects of angles, add elements to a storyline, go back & forth on who gets pushed and just generally flip flop on decisions before anything's really had any time to be fleshed out. He's legendary for doing this and, reportedly, gets so bad at times that it makes even Triple H wanna strangle him. Sometimes, it's much more noticeable than at others and those are the instances in which it looks like a complete clusterfuck. Sometimes, elements of an angle will be changed that doesn't jive with what's been going on in a storyline from previous weeks. Then, sometime over the course of the next week, he'll often change his mind and try to pretend that whatever was added the previous week didn't take place. As a fan and viewer, it can be very frustrating sometimes when I see that play out on television. It can be even more frustrating when a wrestler seems to be given the stop & go treatment in terms of a push because Vince keeps changing his mind. For a few weeks, a guy will be getting a pretty good push before he spends the next 3 weeks jobbing out. Then, out of the blue, Vince might change his mind again and go back to pushing the guy only to lose interest a few weeks later for whatever reason.

 

[Mustang Sally]

For example, putting the title back on John Cena after Daniel Bryan was injured may not have been seen as overly fresh in the eyes of many but, in actuality, it really was the best choice under the circumstances and it led to Brock Lesnar's win of the title becoming a big deal and memorable moment.

Good example. WWE has to involve themselves in long-term planning, even as we who consider ourselves wrestling fans observe and judge strictly in the short term. We're critiquing what we see in front of us on TV at that moment.

We want new, fresh ideas, so they give us Rusev....they give us the Rabbit. But hey! We don't like Rusev & the Rabbit.....Go back and try again, WWE, and we'll let you know when you've got it right.

Meanwhile, there's an incredible amount of programming to fill; far, far more than other episodic TV series. Perhaps we might like it better if there were less WWE hours to watch.....but no, we'd complain about that, too.

I think the John Cena example in the above quote is a fine one. The paradox: there are folks who would love it if he were never to wear the world title belt again.....and every time he does, it spoils the product. But, if the #1 man in the company never wins the title, doesn't that cheapen the product, too? As the above poster said, having him win it was the perfect transitional vehicle to get Brock Lesnar onto the throne. If something as momentous as Brock being the champion was going to happen, it seems entirely right and proper he should take it from Cena, no? But we weren't in on the long-term plan; all we saw was Cena taking the belt, and it displeased a lot of people.

Are WE out of touch?

The key word is "we." By that, are we talking about the person who follows this forum? The person who actually buys monthly wrestling magazines? The person who's never watched a pro wrestling match in his life? The family out for an evening's entertainment who wouldn't know Randy Orton from Randy Travis?

In the case of all of them, we'll always be out of touch with Vince McMahon. It's his playground, his ball, his rules. Yes, even as we talk about long range plans, we're told that Vince is guilty of digging into those far-flung strategies by editing sequences even as the TV show is airing. I don't know if he's always micro-managed, but he sure seems to be doing it now.

But he's got a plan.....always a plan. How much he deviates from it at the last minute, and how much difference his changes actually make in the production....can be debated. Yet, I still think he's probably a step ahead of us since he's been in the business for 150 years. (It's been rumored that Billy the Kid and Wyatt Earp were an avid WWE fans)

Probably, there are those of us who feel that if Vince turned the whole shebang over to them, that they could put on a better production.

A small, evil part of me would love to see them get the chance.

 

[Rusty]

The CROWD LOVES The Bunny and John Cena helping Dean Ambrose (because he can't do it on his own) take out the not-at-all-intimidating-anymore-because-they've-been-buried-by-Cena guys like Kane, Rollins and the Wyatt Family.

The CROWD LOVED IT. The second hour of Raw that had Divas segments and mascots was the highest watched hour.

So apparently, that is what the crowd wants. They do not want to see WWE programming where Cena loses and has to deal with losing to new up and coming Superstars. They don't want to see gritty programming where The Bunny is introduced and then promptly squashed to hell by The Wyatt Family. They don't want to see any of that because it's not PG enough for the kiddies.

WWE is officially not at all for adults. It's for the kids who love John Cena and convince their parents to take them to the shows and buy the merchandise.

Do you agree?

Surely you're trolling us?

The WWE has been PG for quite a few years now buddy, in case you've been living under a rock. And um.. the bit about nobody wants to see Cena lose, that might be because.. I don't know, he's a babyface . I thought that was Wrestling 101 but obviously some people struggle to interpret basic common sense than others.

And the Bunny is a comedy character, you know, something the WWE has pretty much always had. Hornswoggle wasn't funny but they stuck with him for years, and as long as the bunny doesn't interfere in main event type storylines or even serious feuds, I couldn't care less what he does. And um... what would the Wyatt's get from squashing a guy dressed as Bunny? They went toe-to-toe with the Shield, which at least in my opinion, is far more beneficial to the Wyatt's then beating a bunny.

Face it, YOU are out of touch.

 

[mlp420]

A lot of people that criticize WWE's current product were fans of a product that was much more popular than the current one. Hard to make a case we're the ones out of touch in that context. If I'm supposed to believe Vince McMahon was simply "following the money" on the things he's doing why does he stop so many pushes and rarely sticks to anything? Because he knows it's not working. That's it. You're right on Cena, wrong on everything else just based on the fact that WWE isn't confident enough to stick with it.

 

[enviousdominous]

Being out of touch isn't necessarily a bad thing. Not saying that I agree with your blanket statement regarding the mental state of the fan-base, but if whatever is going through the minds of WWE creative is what qualifies for being in touch with reality, then yeah I've definitely flown way the fuck over the cuckoo's nest.

In my line of work, I can miss months of storyline progression. Sometimes I ignore sources of information only so that after returning to being a zombified pro-wrestling (that's what it's fucking called!) mark it's as if I'm watching an entirely different show.

Being in touch only really works if you have a desire to be taken seriously by the status quo. A status quo that for I care can go.... hug itself. There's Justin Bee-buhr, there's Candy Crush and there's good ole' Juan Cheena. All things that draw tons of cash that I'll never relate to, que sera sera. I'm in touch as far as what it takes to draw a paycheck. The WWE is running on that exact same mentality.

 

[Radical]

Surely you're trolling us?

The WWE has been PG for quite a few years now buddy, in case you've been living under a rock. And um.. the bit about nobody wants to see Cena lose, that might be because.. I don't know, he's a babyface . I thought that was Wrestling 101 but obviously some people struggle to interpret basic common sense than others.

And the Bunny is a comedy character, you know, something the WWE has pretty much always had. Hornswoggle wasn't funny but they stuck with him for years, and as long as the bunny doesn't interfere in main event type storylines or even serious feuds, I couldn't care less what he does. And um... what would the Wyatt's get from squashing a guy dressed as Bunny? They went toe-to-toe with the Shield, which at least in my opinion, is far more beneficial to the Wyatt's then beating a bunny.

Face it, YOU are out of touch.

By your signature I can see you are a huge John Cena fan.

What I was getting at with my post is that yes, even though many on this forum and other IWC forums and former WWE fans are not very interested in the WWE because of how much Cena has been pushed and forced into storylines and titles, those of us who feel that way must be out of touch because Vince has not stopped the John Cena train. John Cena is making enough money for Vince, still, that he sees absolutely no reason not to make Cena look as good as possible except in the very rarest of occasions where another guy may draw more money (i.e. Brock Lesnar, The Rock).

The Bunny and the comedy stuff, yeah, I guess it has been around in WWE forever but it in the Attitude Era it was limited and 'comedy' segments were not really done by a group of characters who had a 2 minute match and had no chance of being taken seriously, it was done by the top stars making hilarious comments in promos. The Rock, Stone Cold, Mankind, Edge & Christian, DX, etc. They all brought 'comedy' but in a serious enough way that both fans who enjoyed wrestling grit didn't feel silly for watching it but a young person could also enjoy it.

But, what I am saying is, that type of WWE is not happening much right now. Dean Ambrose is pretty much the only guy most IWC fans and the paying customers find very interesting not including Cena. Guys like the Wyatt Family, Usos, Ziggler and Cesaro are getting there but their pushes have been here and there and so it's been hard to really get behind them.

So yeah, I am out of touch if what is making Vince money is John Cena rarely looking weak and often made to look strong by making up-and-coming Superstars look bad and multiple Divas segments on Raw and pure PG comedy stuff like The Bunny.

 

[L@RISANO]

I think the John Cena example in the above quote is a fine one. The paradox: there are folks who would love it if he were never to wear the world title belt again.....and every time he does, it spoils the product. But, if the #1 man in the company never wins the title, doesn't that cheapen the product, too? As the above poster said, having him win it was the perfect transitional vehicle to get Brock Lesnar onto the throne. If something as momentous as Brock being the champion was going to happen, it seems entirely right and proper he should take it from Cena, no? But we weren't in on the long-term plan; all we saw was Cena taking the belt, and it displeased a lot of people.

Rumour has it that Daniel Bryan(before injury) was supposed to be squashed in much the same manner as John Cena was by Brock Lesnar at SummerSlam. I am fairly sure many 'fans' would have been up in arms had that happened to their favourite without ever realising that such booking would have definitely created the Most Over Monster Heel possible in the WWE(after defeating the Streak, and then squashing Daniel Bryan...).

All those 'fans' would have seen, was that; "Daniel Bryan was buried" ...without ever looking at the long-term effect of building such a Heel character.

 

[BuriedByCena]

I LOVE the bunny. He is already more over than 95% of the roster. I am an older fan but I think it is hilarious. The bunny has gotten over whether you like it or not. Sure there is a time and place for Stone Cold to stunner Santa Clause, but we are the PG era and the Bunny is cool.

Bunny is already more entertaining than most comedy jobbers and adam rose. I have thought of tons of hilarious scenarios for Bunny. When they give him backstage interviews, he will stick to character, not say a word and use his body/hand movements for expressions.

He does this for months. Makes an appearance in the Royal Rumble. Heck, make him in the final couple guys for the lulz like they did with santino. The crowd would go nuts. Then to finish off his epic run, have him win the US title live on RAW on EASTER monday next year. THAT is how you do it.

Then bury him next week to the next upcoming monster heel that is sure to debut after Mania in april.

 

[Navi]

I LOVE the bunny. He is already more over than 95% of the roster. I am an older fan but I think it is hilarious. The bunny has gotten over whether you like it or not. Sure there is a time and place for Stone Cold to stunner Santa Clause, but we are the PG era and the Bunny is cool.

Bunny is already more entertaining than most comedy jobbers and adam rose. I have thought of tons of hilarious scenarios for Bunny. When they give him backstage interviews, he will stick to character, not say a word and use his body/hand movements for expressions.

He does this for months. Makes an appearance in the Royal Rumble. Heck, make him in the final couple guys for the lulz like they did with santino. The crowd would go nuts. Then to finish off his epic run, have him win the US title live on RAW on EASTER monday next year. THAT is how you do it.

Then bury him next week to the next upcoming monster heel that is sure to debut after Mania in april.

I'm an older fan as well and I love the Bunny. He has mad skills, and it must be hard as hell to do what he does in that suit. Now if he came out and didn't have the skills he had and just interfered in the match by doing really nothing, I would have a problem with it, but he doesn't. He gets involved and like I said on another thread, he can superkick his way onto my TV anytime he wants.

It's a refreshing change from see a muscle bound buy in a speedo, and he won't last long and I'm enjoying him while he is here. Are we out of touch maybe, but I'm the kind of person who will leave the room if I don't like a match, or stay glued to the TV if I do. When I watch RAW or SD, I just want to be entertained. I don't want to have to think about it, it's not rocket science, and if I have to think too long about it, then I'm not watching anymore.

 

[whoopin' ass]

We are out of touch only because we still expect wrestling, not sports entertainment. There are fans who like what they do and it is mostly kids so anyone old enough to remember when wwe wasn't the only game in town is probably out of touch with what the wwe is. However Vince is out of touch with entertainment because he still feels that there is no one that is actual competition to them - not UFC, not HBO, no one. So it is a bit of both.

 

[MAHGAWD]

I actually made myself watch TNA and the in ring performances blew away anything the WWE has done recently. Im not saying TNA is better overall but that night they were really good. Hell even the womens match was good. They took some crazy bumps and actually lasted more than 2 minutes.

 

[Headman]

If you've been following WWE programming the last few months and if you've seen the SmackDown Spoilers for this week (even if you haven't, you'll understand what's happening), it will become clear to you that apparently it is US who are out of touch, not Vince.


The CROWD LOVES The Bunny and John Cena helping Dean Ambrose (because he can't do it on his own) take out the not-at-all-intimidating-anymore-because-they've-been-buried-by-Cena guys like Kane, Rollins and the Wyatt Family.

The CROWD LOVED IT. The second hour of Raw that had Divas segments and mascots was the highest watched hour.

So apparently, that is what the crowd wants. They do not want to see WWE programming where Cena loses and has to deal with losing to new up and coming Superstars. They don't want to see gritty programming where The Bunny is introduced and then promptly squashed to hell by The Wyatt Family. They don't want to see any of that because it's not PG enough for the kiddies.

WWE is officially not at all for adults. It's for the kids who love John Cena and convince their parents to take them to the shows and buy the merchandise.

Do you agree?

Aside from a few years in the late 90's the WWE has always been targeted at kids. At least since Vince Jr bought the company. So yes, many of the younger adult fans are out of touch. They started watching at a time when their parents should have done some parenting and blocked Monday Night RAW with their newly created V-chips. But no, they let their kids watch the pro-wrestling version of Jerry Springer and now we've got a whole generation of wrestling fans who can't pay attention unless there is blood or boobs on their television. And then there are the fans who are really out of touch thinking the WWE must be crazy for not pushing the feather weight indy kings. Somehow guys who couldn't fill highschool gyms are supposed to sell out arenas. And when they get the chance and fail, it's because "WWE won't let them succeed!". Wrestling fans are strange creatures. In no other form of entertainment will you see grown men purchase tickets to something they hate just to shit on it. Some point to that as a flaw for the WWE when really they've got your money. You're the one going home pissed off. So who's out of touch?

 

[WBL]

By "we", I'm assuming you mean the 20-somethings who can't stand Cena and his superhero-like booking. And in that way, I can definitely say we're not out of touch with the WWE, because in certain ways, the WWE is trying to cater to us. Not only is the big selling point of the WWE Network that you can access any PPV at any time, but they're also making documentaries and in-depth discussions on situations that 'marks' wouldn't understand. People that young, the toy demographic, wouldn't understand that wrestling is scripted. But there are things catering to the out-of-character aspect of the business that the WWE is putting out today. For example, the newly-released Paul Heyman DVD, which I proudly bought.

 

[Radical]

Aside from a few years in the late 90's the WWE has always been targeted at kids. At least since Vince Jr bought the company. So yes, many of the younger adult fans are out of touch. They started watching at a time when their parents should have done some parenting and blocked Monday Night RAW with their newly created V-chips. But no, they let their kids watch the pro-wrestling version of Jerry Springer and now we've got a whole generation of wrestling fans who can't pay attention unless there is blood or boobs on their television. And then there are the fans who are really out of touch thinking the WWE must be crazy for not pushing the feather weight indy kings. Somehow guys who couldn't fill highschool gyms are supposed to sell out arenas. And when they get the chance and fail, it's because "WWE won't let them succeed!". Wrestling fans are strange creatures. In no other form of entertainment will you see grown men purchase tickets to something they hate just to shit on it. Some point to that as a flaw for the WWE when really they've got your money. You're the one going home pissed off. So who's out of touch?

Yeah, I definitely think there's some truth to that. I was saying in another thread that the big group of 'wrestling fans' that left around 2004 and never came back are the ones who grew up in the Attitude Era and WWF vs WCW. So they saw a heating wrestling competition between companies and therefore a action-packed show with edgy stuff like blood, weapons, sex, swearing, chaos and hostile takeovers.

That stuff doesn't happen nearly as often in WWE today. Why? Because it's PG and because there is NO legit competition. So the 'wrestling fans' who loved that AE stuff will never come back to WWE now because they are fulfilled by edgy shows like Walking Dead, Sons of Anarchy, Game of Thrones, etc. They weren't really wrestling fans, they were chaos and edgy content fans.

Now, Vince has 5 hours of TV to fill plus a 1 hour Main Event and he can put 2 or 3 Divas segments on Raw and absolute embarrassing garbage like Hoda & Kathylee and mascots running around because there NO competition AND dammit, the show overall actually has some really good parts so you have to just bite the bullet, ignore the crappy stuff and focus on the good stuff.

If Vince was still in real competition with another company he could not fill the show with 1 minute of crap because people would just flip over to the other show and watch it for weeks because they are fed up with Vince's crap. These days, there is no such option.

Although, I really like how Lucha Underground is looking. Too bad it isn't on a main network but if it goes well, who knows!

 

[Alastor]

I say both Vince and us are out of touch, hence the declining popularity of pro-wrestling as a mainstream entertainment.

Typical IWC fans want the smarky behind the scenes details worked into storylines. Casual fans don't give two shit about that sort of things. The only thing that matters in such storylines to them is the either the boss screwing the employee or best friends falling out. Only the dumb marks mark the hell out of a stupid pipebomb segment as if it was the best thing in wrestling. Or some prefer chain wrestling compared to 'you can't wrestle' Cena style. Yet they often don't watch real wrestling cause it is 'boring'. Then the flippy flips are what some segment of IWC consider 'real wrestling', to which the majority of the non-wrestling fans say FAKE! and go back to watching MMA. Cenas hater can't resist talking about Cena, yet lament when WWE puts the focus on Cena because everybody wants to talk about Cena. If an alternative version can succeed, it would already have. Try selling a TV programme meant for the masses and alienate kids as a SELLING POINT and see how many content buyers bite.

Vince is out of touch with his sense of humour, but he at least understand the need to inject humour into the product. Vince's vision was always a kid friendly product. Trying to argue that he can't mould his company the way he thinks is best is ridiculous. Another thing I would say is Vince's attempt to make RAW a typical variety show a few years back with lots of early 90's gimmicks is out of touch. Remember the RAW guest host era where we were treated to a SNL-like show every week.Television variety has moved on. We now have 'reality' talent contests in place of such programming where viewers can enjoy 'talent', 'competition' and personal stories. Oh and also the superstar judges that draws viewers in every season. RAW now is more current than those dark years which I think is about the time Vince took a step back. He still has final say so maybe someone convinced him to change it.