ECW Region, Los Angeles Subregion, First Round: (6) CM Punk vs. (27) Bully Ray

[klunderbunker]

This is a first round match in the ECW Region, Los Angeles Subregion. It is a standard one on one match held under ECW Rules, meaning anything goes. It will be held at the Staples Center in Los Angeles, California.

#6. CM Punk

Vs.

#27. Bully Ray

​

Polls will be open for three days following a one day period for discussion. Voting will be based on who you feel is the greater of the two competitors. Post your reasons for why your pick should win below. Remember that this is non-spam and the most votes in the poll win. Any ties will be broken by the amount of posts of support for each candidate, with one vote per poster.

Also remember that this is a non-spam forum. If you post a response without giving a reason for your selection, it will be penalized for spam and deleted.

 

[Thriller Ant]

You easily could, and probably should, argue that Bully/Bubba Ray's prime as a singles wrestler has been the past year or two. CM Punk's prime, also arguably, has been during that same time frame. Ray just won the TNA World Title at Lockdown, Punk just lost the WWE Title after over 400 days to a man considered to be one of the greatest in The Rock. I'm happy for Ray's success, but it's Punk here in a no brainer.

 

[IHW]

Both of these men were in there prime at the same time, and neither are out of it. Problem is it took Bubba 20 years to get there. I love Bully Ray, and everything his character has done in these past two years, but I feel like CM Punk is the better of the two challengers. Both these men have a background with ECW, Bubba with the original and Punk with WWECW, so each men will do great under the circumstances. The ECW Rules benefits Bully more then Punk, but I still don't think its enough to put out CM Punk. This may be a close one, and may not; depending on how people decide to vote. But, I'm going with Punk here.

#434Days

 

[Johnny Scumm]

Punk for me. As IHW said, it's taken Bully years to get into his prime as a singles wrestler, but with Punks being at the same time and his recent 434 day long title reign, it gives him the edge. Shame to see a wrestler of Rays caliber go out early, but I just think Ounk outlasts him here

 

[MINISTRYrising]

I also have to go for Punk. Bully has taken a very long time to get where he is, While Punk has just had the longest world title reign in modern history. Punk easily goes over Bully on this one.

 

[VictorySauce23]

I'm voting for Punk here. They both are at their prime as we speak. Both are comfortable in the ECW setting. Bully is more used to it being in the original and even if D-Von ran in and they gave Punk a 3D, Punk always finds a way to get back up, hits Bully in the head with a chair and hits the GTS.

 

[The Brain]

I guess the timing is right for Bubba Ray in this tournament since he just won the TNA title. Unfortunately for him that's not going to be anywhere near enough. Until the last year or so Bubba has been known as strictly a tag team wrestler. Meanwhile CM Punk has been winning singles titles for years now. Oh, and in case you didn't notice he just came of a pretty long WWE title reign. Punk easily moves on.

 

[klunderbunker]

One of the things I wasn't sure of with this was listing Ray as Bully or Bubba. Now granted it was a little easier last night, but I present to you a very simple question: what means more, being a 23 time world tag team champion or having the win he got last night in the distant second biggest company in the world? At the end of the day, does that trump being in TLC matches that stole whatever show they were on? I'm not so sure.

Anyway, this is Punk and it's not even close. Ray has been a world champion about 23 hours at this point while Punk just had the longest reign since Hulk Hogan. This is in addition to the multitude of other singles titles Punk has had, whereas Ray has a total of one serious singles title.

 

[Thriller Ant]

One of the things I wasn't sure of with this was listing Ray as Bully or Bubba. Now granted it was a little easier last night, but I present to you a very simple question: what means more, being a 23 time world tag team champion or having the win he got last night in the distant second biggest company in the world? At the end of the day, does that trump being in TLC matches that stole whatever show they were on? I'm not so sure.

I'll expand on my thoughts in your thread about this, but I think for this tournament, you have to go with the World Title. As impressive as the tag title reigns are, the singles success is much more important than any sort of tag team success.

 

[6timehitta]

Like many before me, I also will vote for Punk when the polls open, but If this tournament was at the end of the year, I'm wondering if Bully Ray would get a little bit more love than he is presumably bound to get this time around.

 

[Brewski]

Both are in their primes right now so I'm going to imagine the match right now. Punk is younger, faster, more entertaining, and a better professional wrestler. I like bully but punk gots him easy in this one.

 

[shattered dreams]

If you plan on voting for Punk over someone later based on mic skills then I think you have to vote against him here based on the same criteria. Yep, I said it. Bully Ray is better than Punk at prowrestling promos. Punk got over being a dick himself on the independents. Then he went to WWE and played a good character 5+ years ago and everyone wants to pretend he is still a great talker since he cut 1.5 great promos almost 2 years ago. What did he do that was so great during this supposedly great title run? When did he cut a great promo during it? Who did he beat clean? How often did he main event? Bully Ray can work the crowd as a face and as a heel.

I am sure several morons will come in here and say CM Punk is too quick or in too good of shape for a "tag guy" like Bully Ray to hang with him. Bully Ray beat AJ Styles clean in a last man standing match less than two years ago. He beat AJ again a year later. There is nothing that CM Punk can do in the ring that AJ can't do better. Bully Ray is bigger than Punk, his offense is more impactful than Punk's, Bully is tougher than Punk, Bully was in a better (and the only real) ECW than Punk and Bully is just as familiar with underhanded tactics as Punk. How is Punk going to beat Bully Ray? My sources indicate internet fanboys and people vastly overrating the current talent in WWE.

 

[The 1-2-3 Killam]

One of the things I wasn't sure of with this was listing Ray as Bully or Bubba. Now granted it was a little easier last night, but I present to you a very simple question: what means more, being a 23 time world tag team champion or having the win he got last night in the distant second biggest company in the world? At the end of the day, does that trump being in TLC matches that stole whatever show they were on? I'm not so sure.

Anyway, this is Punk and it's not even close. Ray has been a world champion about 23 hours at this point while Punk just had the longest reign since Hulk Hogan. This is in addition to the multitude of other singles titles Punk has had, whereas Ray has a total of one serious singles title.

Yeah, but we're not fighting for a singles title. Besides "Rowdy" Roddy Piper never won the World title, and I wouldn't could him out of a tournament match on that anti-accolade alone.

We're talking about ECW. Furthermore, we're talking Bully Ray, in ECW. One of the biggest stars in the promotions history - albeit as a tag team star. Now here's the thing: ECW means Paul Heyman booking the match. Maybe that's not something our kayfabe tournament is taking into consideration - it's fake bullshit; why the hell not? If Bully had shown an ounce of his current star power int he 90s, he would have been the top guy in ECW no doubt. He'd be the Rob Van Dam with actual promo ability. Or...really anybody from ECW with actual promo ability. But we all know Paul-E has a hard-on for his main boy CM Punk. So I guess, after all my speculation about Heyman being a factor, it probably doesn't matter. Heyman would have booked Bully over in the 90's, and he would have booked Punk over today.

ECW rules don't benefit Bully any more than Punk. Even with all Bully's experience, he's probably been in about as many hardcore SINGLES matches as Punk has. Maybe less. Also, against Bully Ray, he lost to an injured Jeff Hardy in 2012 at the climax of a tournament.

No Devon. No Aces & Eights. I'm not saying Bully can't get it done on his own, but he's not beating Punk. So no KB I wasn't arguing against you completely, just saying the whole singles title business isn't the end-all, be-all to the discussion.

Punk over Bully Ray with a GTS and a flying elbow drop with a steel chair to the dome. 1-2-3.

 

[shattered dreams]

Punk over Bully Ray with a GTS and a flying elbow drop with a steel chair to the dome. 1-2-3.

Punk can barely do a passable elbow drop with no distractions. I am not even sure he could climb the rope with a chair. On the off chance he actually got on the top rope with a chair then he would either fall off (if you fall in ECW there is 75% chance you go through a table), drop the chair when he jumped (you fucked up, you fucked up) or most likely jump into a bubba cutter through a flaming table since it took him 5 minutes to get set up on the rope.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

As much as I agree with Shattered's criticisms of CM Punk, I don't see Bully pulling it off.

Punk is a smart wrestler. Overrated talker, overrated performer, but a really smart dude in the ring. Bully's no dope, but Punk's strategy would overtake Bully's. Bully really hasn't had the opportunity to do so, but get back to me when he beats John Cena or The Undertaker.

As much as I like Bully, and I definitely do, he's not beating Punk.

 

[shattered dreams]

As much as I agree with Shattered's criticisms of CM Punk, I don't see Bully pulling it off.

Punk is a smart wrestler. Overrated talker, overrated performer, but a really smart dude in the ring. Bully's no dope, but Punk's strategy would overtake Bully's. Bully really hasn't had the opportunity to do so, but get back to me when he beats John Cena or The Undertaker.

As much as I like Bully, and I definitely do, he's not beating Punk.

Bully Ray just outsmarted the biggest babyface of all-time. Who has Punk actually outsmarted? Not HHH, not Cena. Bully Ray is just as smart as Punk and he is more use to thinking in a hardcore environment than Punk is. Most of Punk's smarts are worthless when anything already does go. What is Punk's strategy? Hope Vince buys the company before the match ends and then fast forwards 10 years? What is Bully's strategy? Get DOC to tell him where Punk hides the Ambien. Guess who will be going to sleep?

 

[Con T.]

This is going to sound immensely pretentious, given that whole I can't wrestle deal. But it's really easy to have a 434 day run as champion when you aren't even the main deal on your show for a good portion of it. I've said it before and I'll say it again; I don't hate CM Punk, at all. What I hate is this idea that he's a game changer; he isn't. Hell, for about half of his reign, the focus of the show was on Cena, People Power, and Brock Lesnar.

A couple of questions I want for people to think about this round:

Of the 434 days Punk spent as champion, how many can you legitimately say were meaningful? SD said earlier that the WWE has a weakened talent pool, which is true, but they also have the luxury of having John Cena, and using him whenever they want. It protects Punk in a way, but how can I look at this guy as the top guy in the promotion, when he clearly isn't?

Bully has been. For the past two years, Bully has skyrocketed to the top, and has been everything TNA needs. When Sting needed a partner to go against the debuting Aces & 8's, who did TNA turn to?

That's right, Bully Ray.

When TNA needed someone to establish Austin Aries as a credible competitor in the heavyweight division (and let's not pretend there was a guarantee Aries would have been ok; there wasn't), who did TNA go to?

Yup, Bully Ray.

Finally, when TNA needed someone to help them from the meandering path Aces & 8's, who did TNA turn to, and get in one night, get this disorganized group of heels over?

Bully. Ray.

Let's not pretend that Punk has been setting the world on fire since he got to WWE; I can remember at least three or so years where Punk did fuck all with the company. Punk's recent rise to power has been off the back of two years worth of work.

Roughly the same as Bully Ray.

And, if I'm really thinking about it, consider this; are you going to ignore Bully Ray, and then the next day praise Jeff Hardy and Edge for what they did for ladder matches? Because I tell ya what, I seem to remember Bully and Devon were in those matches, too, and saved the other competitors from killing themselves with those ladders

Listen, Punk is really great. He has damn good matches and his promos are good, outstanding in the current era. I loved his work with the Straight Edge Society, and even though I just shat on how meandering and pointless he was at the time, he still gave some great, great promos. And he clearly is talented, perhaps one day I'll watch his DVD's and see all of his severely underrated matches with Rey Mysterio and think, "you know, I miss him"

But he isn't as great as people think he is. And if you're asking me if I enjoy watching him more than Bully Ray?

Absolutely not

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

Bully Ray just outsmarted the biggest babyface of all-time.

An old, drunken cripple. That's who Bully outsmarted. Oh, and Hogan wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer in his prime, either.

Who has Punk actually outsmarted? Not HHH, not Cena.

Definitely Cena. He may not actually beat Cena all that often, but Cena rarely beats him. That's saying something, seeing Cena beats almost every opponent he faces. He has also beaten The Undertaker and Randy Orton. I'm not blaming Bully for not beating much of anyone worth talking about in singles competition, he just hasn't had to face the competition Punk has.

Bully Ray is just as smart as Punk and he is more use to thinking in a hardcore environment than Punk is. Most of Punk's smarts are worthless when anything already does go. What is Punk's strategy? Hope Vince buys the company before the match ends and then fast forwards 10 years?

Punk has won more than his fair share of tough, rugged matches. Street fights, submission matches, etc. He was the ECW champion as well. We all know that was a bullshit title, but it's still more singles experience than what Bully has.

While I most certainly laugh with you when it comes to the overrating of CM Punk, he'd find a way to win. I just don't think Bully's on the same level as Punk, not in a tournament like this. I don't see a way Bully out cheats CM Punk, even in a hardcore environment.

 

[The 1-2-3 Killam]

Punk can barely do a passable elbow drop with no distractions. I am not even sure he could climb the rope with a chair. On the off chance he actually got on the top rope with a chair then he would either fall off

One of my favorite things about these forums is making you look dumb.
[YOUTUBE]pV90h3cS26k[/YOUTUBE]
Look at that. Look at that beautiful WWE Champion standing on top of the turnbuckle for what has to be three, maybe four seconds? Even points his free hand into the air and sacrifices his balance for a little showmanship.

 

[El Rev sXe]

A really, reaaaaally interesting environment for both men, probably more "interesting" for Bully Ray.

Howevere, we can have the kayfabe argument that Punk didn't outsmart anyone. Are you kidding me, didn't you see the feud last year between him and Cena? When it is about the biggest championship in WWE, Cena hasn't simply get the job done.
You want to talk about Bully Ray outsmarting Jeff Hardy? In some degree, CM Punk has made a career of beating and humiliating Jeff Hardy and by that time, Punk didn't had the SeS, unlike Bully Ray who recently has the Ace's & eights in order to outsmart Hardy.
On the other hand as far the rules of the match are concerned, Bully Ray could have the edge since he has experience on his side, however this experience comes from tag matches. Plus, Punk has beaten someone who knows one thing or two about the original ECW, Chris Jericho in a Chicago street fight (without the tables on fire is basically the same thing).

From a non kayfabe point of view, Bully Ray may be now THE man on his company but like someone said, it has been for what, a day? Punk was champion for over a year, and you could argue by the fact that he didn't maint event every single PPV but you need to take in count the fact that Punk in a couple of weeks is going to face one of the biggest names in history of this business in the biggets PPV that this business has to offer. That is an honor reserved since Mania XX (well maybe with the exception of Mark Henry) to big names, top dogs or whatever you want to call it. Plus, Taker for 4 consecutive years had match of the year candidates, that's a big responsability delivered to CM Punk.

Being champion for over a year and having a match againt Taker at Wrestlemania is only two accolades that Bully Ray is really far from having or even dreaming.

Probably a brutal match, involving tons of blood for both men, but at the end Punk wins.

 

[shattered dreams]

Look at that. Look at that beautiful WWE Champion standing on top of the turnbuckle for what has to be three, maybe four seconds? Even points his free hand into the air and sacrifices his balance for a little showmanship.

All I see is a 20 minute video with mark henry in it, my suspicion is it is more potent than punk's finisher. If it is a WWE video the ropes aren't that tight in ECW. I stand by my statement. They probably had to rig the turnbuckle special just for whatever spot you are referencing if it worked. Punk sacrificing for showmanship is what will do him in. Ray is an old school hard hitting guy that doesn't do ballet. Such a move isn't finisher caliber in ECW anyway. Did he GTS him?

 

[shattered dreams]

Definitely Cena. He may not actually beat Cena all that often, but Cena rarely beats him. That's saying something, seeing Cena beats almost every opponent he faces. He has also beaten The Undertaker and Randy Orton. I'm not blaming Bully for not beating much of anyone worth talking about in singles competition, he just hasn't had to face the competition Punk has.

Beating and outsmarting are two very different things. As best I recall Punk has never gone over Cena without Cena outsmarting himself through nothing related to what Punk is doing.

Punk has won more than his fair share of tough, rugged matches. Street fights, submission matches, etc. He was the ECW champion as well. We all know that was a bullshit title, but it's still more singles experience than what Bully has.

And it is still way less anything goes, tough, rugged experience than Bully has. The only reason singles would matter is if Bully has proven he can't do it. That isn't the case. He merely chose to dominate tag wrestling. He has transitioned to singles just fine.

While I most certainly laugh with you when it comes to the overrating of CM Punk, he'd find a way to win. I just don't think Bully's on the same level as Punk, not in a tournament like this. I don't see a way Bully out cheats CM Punk, even in a hardcore environment.

There is no "cheating" in anything goes. That is kind of the point. I don't see any way Punk inflicts more damage to Ray than vice versa in such an environment and even if they inflict the same amount of damage then Punk would lose. Seems like a bad draw for Punk to me. This is essentially a gimmick round, not a first round singles matching in WWE. Context matters and nothing here benefits Punk other than the amount of grease in the hair of most of the likely voters.

 

[Nate DaMac]

I get where you guys are going with this, but no. I'm not joining the "Fuck Punk" brigade here just to spite the indy nerds. When he takes on guys he should actually lose to, I'll be right there with you.

Unfortunately, CM Punk is emphatically better than Bully Ray in virtually every way. Bully is a much better singles wrestler than anyone probably ever imagined he could be, but he just won his first World Title.

 

[ABMorales787]

In my view, Bully Ray is far superior to CM Punk. Punk holds his status in the WWE by his complaints. His reputation is built on the fact that he's "superior" simply because. His popularity reached the level it's at today by talking from the fourth wall. Meanwhile, Bully Ray has bee nothing but solid work and simply being a jerk.

If you weigh them, who's a bigger heel? Bully Ray. Just look at what he did last night. That's on the list of Powerbombing an 80 year old woman, beating up a student, stabbing his brother in the back and beating up his own nephews and such. Punks a heel by words. Ray is a heel by his actions.

In the ring, who'd be more dominant? Punk is the superior wrestler. No way in hell I can deny that. But would you really see CM Punk be booked as dominating Bully Ray in a match? Even if it was a shoot, he'd certainly have a hard time.

The only thing Punk has going for him is that he's younger, on a bigger promotion and isn't used to put other people over. Bully Ray unfortunately has that flaw. After his first appearance as Bully Ray his only major wins in 2011 for him were against AJ Styles at Slammiversary and Mr. Anderson at Hardcore Justice.

Yeah, Punk will go and I guess at the end of the day, he should go over Bully Ray. But that doesn't change my belief that Ray is superior.

 

[The 1-2-3 Killam]

All I see is a 20 minute video with mark henry in it, my suspicion is it is more potent than punk's finisher. If it is a WWE video the ropes aren't that tight in ECW. I stand by my statement. They probably had to rig the turnbuckle special just for whatever spot you are referencing if it worked. Punk sacrificing for showmanship is what will do him in. Ray is an old school hard hitting guy that doesn't do ballet. Such a move isn't finisher caliber in ECW anyway. Did he GTS him?

If you're not going to even bother watching the proof that makes you look like a fool, I'm not going to bother gratifying your poor "the ropes were tightened" bullshit excuse with a decent response.

Also, give me a fucking break that such a move isn't finisher quality in ECW. There was so little actually science behind ECW booking - you can't tell me this or that wasn't "finisher quality". One match would end with a powerbomb, another with 17 flaming tables and a cheese grater to the ball sack. Who the hell cares if he got the GTS on Mark Henry? That's not the point. He COULD GTS Bully Ray, but he could much more easily lock him in the Anaconda Vice. OR...like I said...take a steel chair, go up to the top rope, and hit a freaking diving elbow drop with it.

Look I love Bully Ray. I'm not really fighting against him. I'm just fighting against ignorant statements that are the epitome of WAY too many matches in this tournament. Things like "Punk couldn't stand on a turnbuckle because ECW ropes are too loose". You act like the guy learned how to wrestle in Florida. Go check out some old Ace Steel gym videos. Or better yet, look at the rings Punk taught himself how to wrestle in. ECW loose ropes? You've got to be kidding me...