ECW Region, Fourth Round, TLC Match: (1) The Rock vs. (4) Ric Flair

Discussion in 'ECW Region' started by klunderbunker, May 11, 2012.

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Who Wins This Match?

  1. The Rock

  2. Ric Flair

Multiple votes are allowed.
Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. FitFinlay4Life

    FitFinlay4Life What's the craic?

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    Who the WWF were cheering most wasn't the statement I made, Rock was number two to Austin when Austin was active - that's why Austin went over.

    The Rock is not physically better than a prime Flair. I said that ECW respected wrestling ability - not just their fans. An in his heyday Flair was a greater wrestler than the Rock, ergo he would have had a great chance of being booked over Mr Johnson.
     
    #26
  2. FlexAmerican Dynamite

    FlexAmerican Dynamite RIP Cooper's Title Reign

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    Austin went over because Rock was going to film a movie and also becoming more popular mainstream then Flair or Austin could ever dream of. Plus they were starting the Invasion angle.

    Go read Rattlesnake's post about a page back. Flair barely beat Orton last round in a last man standing match. Rock takes this pretty easily.
     
    #27
  3. Hulkamaniac

    Hulkamaniac Vote Hogan, Savage, Rocky and Thesz

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    1. If Rocky is a face, he doesn't have the NOD/Corporation.

    2. Nobody in the history of the wrestling business is miles above Flair. You're just being moronic to say otherwise.


    I'm still torn about who I should cast my written vote for, since it seems I can't take back my original electronic vote. I'll have to think on it. I think I'm leaning more towards Rock's peak being as a heel, and thus giving him the big advantage in this match.
     
    #28
  4. FlexAmerican Dynamite

    FlexAmerican Dynamite RIP Cooper's Title Reign

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    That doesn't mean if he's a face those people still aren't his boys.

    Rock is, hence the reason he's leading this match by like twenty plus points. Your moronic to say otherwise.

    At this point I really don't think it matters. Written votes don't mean anything if the score is as it is now.
     
    #29
  5. justinsayne

    justinsayne Cody Rhodes is an excellant

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    Get the fuck out of here with that bullshit, we're not talking booking, we're talking kayfabe in his tourny.
     
    #30
  6. Hulkamaniac

    Hulkamaniac Vote Hogan, Savage, Rocky and Thesz

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    But it does mean that he wouldn't have a group of people to come out and "back him up" in a given match. Most faces do not. Using your logic, every face ever should have people running out to defend them against heel group beatdowns. Which, of course, they don't.

    Oh, well, gosh, a vote on the Wrestlezone forums is the be all, end all of this discussion. If you're truly trying to argue that ANYONE is "miles above Flair", than you're either 14 or a total moron. Let's say all 20 plus people who voted think that Rock is fractionally better than Flair, does that mean ROck is miles better?

    If a presidential candidate loses every single state in the union by 1 vote, he would get shut out of the electoral college, but does that mean the vote wasn't close?

    Sure, they matter. Because that's, you know, the point of the tournament.
     
    #31
  7. FlexAmerican Dynamite

    FlexAmerican Dynamite RIP Cooper's Title Reign

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    Read the first posts of the thread, I'm sick of trying to explain why your being so stupid.

    Ric Flair never got to heights in WWE that Rock did. Argue all you want about what he did in WCW/NWA but people are far more inclined to believe the accomplishments from the successful company that's still alive.

    They matter if their is a close match not a complete slaughter.
     
    #32
  8. Hulkamaniac

    Hulkamaniac Vote Hogan, Savage, Rocky and Thesz

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    That's because the logic is stupid, so it must get embarrassing to keep repeating it.



    Flair did more, and he did it longer. And he did it in the WWF, too. WOn the Royal Rumble, won the world championship, big Mania moment with Randy Savage. That's on top of all the things he did in the NWA. Ignore it all you want, try to pretend it didn't matter, whatever. It just makes you look foolish.
     
    #33
  9. FlexAmerican Dynamite

    FlexAmerican Dynamite RIP Cooper's Title Reign

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    It's explaining why every argument your making right now is wrong. Flair doesn't beat Rock in a TLC match after getting taken to the limit by Orton.


    It doesn't matter really, were in ECW region. Rock is simply just going to beat Flair in TLC rules.
     
    #34
  10. ProudFlairMark

    ProudFlairMark Occasional Pre-Show

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    Hulkamaniac *MAY* be the smartest poster I've seen on these here forums. Flair is great not because he did any one thing great, but because when it came to pro wrestling, he did everything great. Anyone who thinks Flair isn't one of the most charismatic, entertaining, talented wrestlers in the history of the business, you ought to rethink how much you actually know about wrestling. To Hulkamaniac's point, Flair did it better for longer. Flair was the man when the NWA championship meant you were the best in the business - and then parlayed that in reigns for WWF, WCW, and WWE - for 30 years. To be fair, though, if this was a tournament to determine the most mainstream wrestler of all time, The Rock would and should win. When to comes to the best pro wrestler of all time, Rock isn't in Flair's league. Rock falls well behind people like Hogan, Rhodes, Flair, Michaels, Austin, Race...
     
    #35
  11. JGlass

    JGlass Unregistered User

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    The Rock should win. But...

    This is one of the STUPIDEST posts I've ever read. The Rock is far behind Flair in terms of wrestling legacy. In terms of kayfabe, then I would argue that yes, The Rock is much better than Ric Flair. However, that's the only place I'd put The Rock above Flair.

    Flair was a better worker, better seller, better on the mic, and had a better character, a greater legacy (not to say The Rock's wasn't good to great in any of these categories, Flair was just better), and I think the argument could be made that Flair was more of a draw than Rock. I wouldn't want to make it, but I bet you there are some wrestling historians here that would and could make that argument.

    I'm trying to do my best to keep things kayfabe, so I'm not going to vote for Ric Flair here. He simply wouldn't beat The Rock in this type of match, and a prime Ric Flair doesn't match up well against a prime Rock at all. This is the exact type of match that Flair would lose, and Rock would win.
     
    #36
  12. The Gribbler

    The Gribbler Gribble me this, Gribble me that...

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    I think this goes to the Rock. The matchtype favors the more athletic, and rock was brought into the Era of flogging your opponent with anything and everything you can find, it was commonplace during his career.

    If it was a one on one wrestling match, and Iron man match, a submission match... you get the idea, I would go for flair, but I think the TLC suits the taller, stronger and more athletic Rock.
     
    #37
  13. Pay Per Ghost

    Pay Per Ghost squashed Disco Inferno to become

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    Dynamite, you might be hurting Rock here. Stop.




    Since this is ECW, I have to think extreme. Extreme=blood. Now who has bled more?
    My train of thought rules!



    But that's not how we do kayfabe. This is a bit of an alien ground for both these guys but I would give it to Rock based on quickness. If Flair was a more bigger man, I would argue that the big man would dominate Rock physically. However I would give power to the The Rock here also. And then there is the plus point of someone who is much more athletic and quick on his feet.
     
    #38
  14. Mr. Artistic guy

    Mr. Artistic guy Better Off This Way

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    Because he supports your stance? You either haven't been around here very long or very very low standards.

    That is the exact reason as to why The Rock is so good. Can you name me one thing, one single weak link in his armour? Nobody would deny Flair is a total package, a jack of all trades. Similarly I don't see how anybody can reasonable argue the same isn't true for Rocky.

    I'd be surprised if anybody made anything to the contrary of that point.

    The Rock was a wrestler on a continual basis for 6 years. SIX MERE YEARS. And despite that we're at a point when more than two thirds of people voting have put him over the guy that did what Rock did "better for longer". I'm not saying the vote is fair or accurate, but it is the case, and it begs the question as to the quality of those years in comparison to Slick Ric's.

    Rock was WWF champion 9 times in the space of a few years during the Attitude era. That was quite a competitive time. Undertaker, HHH, Stone Cold, Kurt Angle, Mankind were all red hot then but none held the belt as much as he did then. Granted, that also means he lost a lot but Ric Flair is the 16 time world champion which means he didn't exactly win every match either. Plus Rock had to contend with things like the corporation, the McMahon-Helmsley era, the two man power trip and still prevail for the belt.

    Certainly not diminishing Flair reigns, what you say is right, but The Rock title victories were pretty prolific also.

    Rock was in the business for 3 years before he managed to claim that accolade. I remember the closest Flair ever came to being mainstream. 3 years in the WWF, 2 titles reigns and a couple of really good feuds. Then he moved on.

    Very untrue. If it's quality over quantity we're talking Ultimate Warrior, Goldberg, Lesnar and The Rock in the final 4, because despite his short few years I'm sure guys who've broke their back for 25 years would kill to have had his career. He broke out, no lasting injuries, plenty of moneys (unrelated I know).

    The point is this. The Rock, just like Ric Falir as I said, has/had it all. He could talk like nobody else, he could wrestle a steller match and go 60 minutes too if he needed. Flair was a promo-God in a different way to The Rock, and he could go to Japan and wrestle Inoki, then come back and go 45 minutes with Sting, then get mauled by the Road Warriors and defeat Dusty Rhodes. But competition was just as stuff when Rock was on top, and he thrived. If you want to vote for Flair, that's fine, but don't peddle this 'in a different league' thing. The Rock is in the very pinnacle class of professional wrestlers ever, as is Flair. It's a close match, and I voted for Rocky.

    I did it....... FOR DA ROCK.
     
    #39
  15. Silly Willy Nilly Vanilly in the Milly

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    It would be funny as hell to watch Flair attempt to climb a ladder.
    Even if he could, The Rock would still take this one.
    This match, as mentioned previously, favors the more athletic.
    In addition, though Flair had more accomplishments, I'm almost certain NONE of them were via ladder or TLC matches.
    Rock has experience here.
    Vote The #1 Jabroni here.
     
    #40
  16. Loveless

    Loveless A Life In Monochrome

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    Which is exactly why Flair would win. Someone didn't read the rules on being in their prime.
     
    #41
  17. Silly Willy Nilly Vanilly in the Milly

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    Fair enough. I'm not saying Flair (in his prime) wouldn't give Rocky a run for his money, but I think Rock would find some way to win in the end, especially in the event Rock played as a face and Flair as a heel (if that is even relevant). Either way, Rock takes it IMO.
    On the other hand, Flair could find some cheap way to win (is there a cheap way to win a TLC match?) as he usually did way back when...
    Loveless, you're making me re-consider.
     
    #42
  18. ServantofTwilight

    ServantofTwilight Pre-Show Stalwart

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    Hogan was beat by several people on his return, Flair was way past his prime and Austin was a shell of himself. The Rock lost big matches to the likes of Triple H, The Undertaker, Mankind, Chris Jericho and Brock Lesner. To sugest that he would automatically win because it was a big match is silly. He lost the main events of Wrestlemania 15, 16 and 17, dropping the title twice. His win against Cena is impressive, and is probably what people are really voting on.

    Good arguement except Flair more often then not won at the big events. Starcade, Great American Bash, Crockett Cup, Halloween Havoc, Clash of Champions. While it is true he lost some he won more of the big matches he was in over a variety of opponents.

    You forgot 'In My Opinion', because in my opinion it is the other way around.

    Wow, A 60 minute match. Wow. While you are right, there is no saying that this will go 60 minutes, but the point of Flair being able to wrestle long periods of time goes to endurance and durability. Those to qualities might pertain to this match. Maybe.

    Heres the difference. If you are saying that The Rock has the NOD or the Corporation then that is the time period for him you are going with. Heel Rock with no win over Hogan or Austin. They were not with the face Rock so you have to make a choice. Otherwise Flair has Blackjack Mulligan, Greg Valentine, Ole Anderson, Arn Anderson, Tully Blanchard, Lex Lugar, Barry Windham, Sid Viscious, Sting, Brian Pillman, Dean Malenko, Chris Benoit, Randy Orton, Triple H and Batista to help him. My bets on Flair.

    Let me fix that for you...Just to squash it before it shows up, if you think The Rock is a better promo man then Ric Flair, please proceed to go to the tallest object around you, and throw yourself from it. You are welcome.

    Can't stand, can't climb.


    Judging by the vote this is the only correct thing you said.

    Wow. Rock beat Flair in 2002, well past Flair's prime. I argued the 60 minutes and the interference. Rocks faster...Flairs better. Rocks stronger...Flairs better. Vote Flair.

    Which is what was said about Sting, Magnum TA, Kerry Von Erich, Nikita Kololf, Road Warrior Animal, Road Warrior Hawk, Brusier Brody, Barry Windham and Lex Lugar. I think Flair can handle The Rock.

    Again, if The Rock has the NOD or Corp then he is a heel and Flair>Heel Rock. As for the interference, Flair often wrestled all the top faces in cage matches and with the exception of two( to Rhodes and Garvin ) he always won. Without interference.

    Rock as a face= good match. Rock as a heel= Flair win. And I already took care of the NOD/Corp thing.

    Rattlesnakes arguement was actually a good one except...Flair, in 1986 at the Great American Bash signed to defend his title at 14 cards in a monthes time. He defended against Ricky Morton, Robert Gibson, Magnum TA, Road Warrior Hawk, Road Warrior Animal, Nikita Kololf, Wahoo McDaniels, Ivan Kololf and Dusty Rhodes. Most in cages. He won all except the last two. I think Flair in his prime can survive one match with Randy Orton.

    Actually, it does. Or are you saying that as a face McMahon, his enemy, would also help him.

    Yes, because we didn't have ladders in the 80s.

    Its sad. Someone posted, before the tourement started, that it would be won by either The Rock, because he just came back; or Savage because he just died. Good chance this comes true.

    Prime vs prime Flair goes over the Rock again and again and again.
     
    #43
  19. Big Sexy

    Big Sexy Deadly Rap Cannibal

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    Enough with the "Flair wins because of the Horsemen" bullshit. Last time I checked Flair wasn't undefeated as a member of the Four Horsemen. He still lost to the likes of Dusty Rhodes, Sting, Ricky Steamboat, Ron fucking Garvin, etc. The fact remains, The Rock is just a bigger star then Flair. Rock is on the level of Hogan and Austin while Flair is a tier below those guys. The closest thing NWA/WCW had to Rock during the late 80's/early 90's was Sting and Sting absolutely owned Flair. If you want to say that Flair's prime was before all of that and was closer to the early 80's, then Flair doesn't have the Horsemen at all. The Rock is a bigger star, better on the mic, better as an overall entertainer, and he would win this match in kayfabe. That isn't a knock on Flair because the guy is obviously a legend, the list of guys better then Rock just happens to be almost non existent.
     
    #44
  20. Davi323

    Davi323 semi-retired from WZ

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    And how many of those matches that Flair lost were with rules that specifically allow what would otherwise be considered cheating? I am quite positive that the amount of No-DQ matches that Flair lost is a significantly lower number than the amount of standard matches.

    But since you want to focus on Ric Flair's losses to support the Rock, doesn't the Rock have multiple losses to Mankind, Triple H, Steve Austin, the Big Show, Kurt Angle, Chris Jericho and Brock Lesnar, all during his championship years, all during his prime? The Rock was never the man like Flair, he was always playing second fiddle to Austin. He only got to be the man for a short amount of time because Austin left. Ric Flair was the man for over a decade before his rivalry with Sting really got going.

    Ric Flair is the dirtiest player in the game. Ric Flair is in a match where he can't be disqualified. FOR ANYTHING. You really think he wouldn't take advantage of that? Really?

    Rock is a bigger star on the mic? I guess that's a matter of opinion. If you like constant repetitive catch phrases and monkey ass references devoid of anything really substantial, then yeah, I guess you are right.
     
    #45
  21. Big Sexy

    Big Sexy Deadly Rap Cannibal

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    He lost to both Dusty Rhodes and Sting in cage matches. Two guys Rock is superior to.

    The Rock was at his peak during a time where everyone, even the top dogs, lost matches. All the guys Rock lost to he also beat. The competition during that time in the WWE is unparallelled to any other promotion in any other era. When The Rock was a face in the early 2000's, however, he rarely if ever lost clean and often times he overcame interference to win anyways. Austin injury or not, the Rock was at the top when the WWE's ratings were at it's best. Flair's best decade came when the WWF overtook the NWA as the top dog and the competition for Flair was not nearly what The Rock faced.

    I'm sure he would try but that doesn't mean he would succeed. Besides if we're talking about Flair's prime being with the Horsemen, the Horsemen had a lot of enemies. In this make believe tournament where anything could happen, what is going to stop some of those guys from coming down and helping the mega face Rock fend off the evil Flair and the Horsemen? We can play the interference game all day long but in the end it can easily be refuted in multiple ways.

    This is the bullshit I hear all the time. "The Rock only has catchphrases and no substance." That is a load of crap. The Rock having more catchphrases then anyone in the history of wrestling is a testament to how good he really is on the mic. Main event superstars would kill to have even a quarter of those catchphrases. Besides, something only becomes a real catchphrase when it is not only used but is accepted by the crowd. The Rock doesn't need catchphrases to make a point and cut a good promo. He uses them because that is what the crowd wants to hear. Whether he is a face or a heel it gets the crowd involved and gets him a ridiculous amount of cheers or a ridiculous amount of heat which is the main point to cutting a promo along with furthering sorylines. If all the Rock had was "repetitive catch phrases and monkey ass references," then all Flair had was repetitive catchphrases and references to how expensive his clothes were, with some nonsensical whoooooooo's mixed in. We all know that it isn't true for either man. Flair was one of the greatest ever on the mic. The Rock is THE greatest ever on the mic.
     
    #46
    Nate DaMac and Ming like this.
  22. The Brain

    The Brain King Of The Ring

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    This is actually what I'm separating it on too but I'm thinking the opposite. Those are great victories for Rock but not as impressive as they may seem. At WM18 Rock beat an over the hill Hogan. At WM19 Rock beat a battered and beaten Steve Austin who was in such bad shape he literally almost died the night before the match. At WM28 Rock beat John Cena because he was the special guest celebrity. It was like Lawrence Taylor, Jay Leno, and Floyd Mayweather getting the win. The guest celebrity always wins.

    I remember when Rock was a far more active competitor he lost three consecutive mania main events. I remember him losing to Austin every other time they wrestled besides Austin's final match. I remember him losing to Big Show, Undertaker, Chris Jericho, and Kurt Angle. I also remember him losing to Ric Flair's protege in a ladder match at MSG. Flair lost a lot too but he also won more big matches than Rock did. Rock didn't become a regular big match winner until he became a movie star and since wrestling was his second career by then you could say it was outside Rock's prime. Remember, the guest celebrity always wins but in this tournament Rock is still just a wrestler.
     
    #47

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