Cena Region, Fourth Round, 60 Minute Iron Man Match: (1) John Cena vs. (5) Terry Funk

[MrMojoRisin]

What, like three or four all time greats?

Anyway, I see what you're saying: The best offense is a good defense. But when John Cena can pick up wins over guys like Brock Lesnar, I don't see Terry Funk being able to outlast Cena's power while getting in enough damage of his own to put Cena down.

Furthermore, Terry Funk has never had to deal with the type of athlete that John Cena is. Terry Funk lost his title to Harley Race, a man who had the reputation of being as strong as they come. He's probably the closest thing to John Cena in 1975, and he was too much for Funk.



I'm going to break kayfabe here and say that, when taking other factors into consideration like era and the fact that most of Funk's matches weren't PPV, let alone televised, comparing a regular match in the 70s to an Iron Man match on a WWE PPV in the 21st century is weak. Two entirely different beasts.



Terry Funk and Paul Jones (who?) wrestled to a 60 minute draw.

There's no way John Cena is wrestling a 60 minute draw with a guy who never won a top title.



Oh brother.

John Cena has been wrestling against main event level competition since his debut in the WWE. He's defeated names like Shawn Michaels, Triple H, Randy Orton, CM Punk, Edge, Brock Lesnar, The Rock (and don't tell me he was over the hill, because when Cena did beat him it was his first loss since his return to the business), Batista, and you know what, fuck it, Keven Owens/Steen.

No doubt, Terry Funk has also wrestled and beat many big names, but the era we're talking about includes Dusty Rhodes, Giant Baba, Jack Brisco, and Harley Race. I'm assuming NWA Heavyweight Champion Funk is the Funk you're talking about because otherwise, his endurance will be called into question.



Huh? What? Beg pardon?

Considering Cena wins the majority of his PPV matches, let alone BIG PPV matches, I'm not sure why this has been established.

If you mean pushed on time, I'd again break kayfabe to point out that Terry Funk's NWA and 21st century WWE are two totally different beasts. Look at any NWA card during Funk's time as champ and you'd be hard pressed to find a card without a match that outlasts 99% of today's WWE matches.

If you want to compare a 60 minute match to today's wrestling world, I think your best best is comparing it to matches that go approximately 25 minutes with 5 minute wiggle room to either side. Very few matches stretch past 25 minutes, and that seems to be the average time stamp for the matches that really get people excited these days.

And John Cena wins most of those. So...



You got me, it was late, I was trying to hammer out a post before I went to bed and got lazy. So let's clarify...

We're just going to pretend that Rufus Jones, Chief Wahoo McDaniel, Dick Slater, and Paul Jones (who?!) are big names now?

No, Terry Funk had a few matches against your legendary names like Jack Brisco and Dusty Rhodes, but most of his NWA Title Reign was spent defending against guys who never rose above being regional stars.

Paul Jones was a top name of the 70's. Multiple time Florida Champ. Mid-Atlantic Champ. US Champ. Texas Champ. He won 'top' titles all over the place. Just because the business he worked in operated under a different model than the one you're used to watching today doesn't change that.

Also Wahoo McDaniel, Dick Slater, Rufus R Jones... were big names for their time. Wahoo especially would have been a name that for his time was on par with virtually anyone Cena's been up against. Slater was a top draw in any territory he was in throughout the 70's and early 80's. Rufus Jones isn't really the greatest example to be throwing out, but then again, Cena's fought more than his share of mid-carders too.

As for your claim that most of Funk's opponents never rose above being 'regional' stars. Different time. Different model. Those were the limits that those guys had to reach... unless you happened to have the political clout to go the next level like the Brisco's, Funks, Rhodes, Races, ect.

Don't compare the apples to the oranges. The guys you're casually dismissing as nobodies were every bit the stars of their time that the guys you're putting over from the time that you do know are.

In the 70's when Funk was NWA Champ... many of Shawn Michaels, Triple H, Randy Orton, CM Punk, Edge, Brock Lesnar, The Rock, Batista and Kevin Owens would have been nothing more than 'regional' stars. A couple of them may have broken through like Funk did, but you'd probably be surprised at the guys who wouldn't have.

 

[nightmare]

Good old Slyfox, never one to disappoint. You can dismiss whatever you like, but even from your arrogant high horse, you cannot believe a man who does something more frequently is at a disadvantage to someone who rarely participates. So please continue to vote in your paint by numbers style regardless of common sense. Maybe next year we just throw out gimmick matches, location & everyone not named Cena, Rock, Austin or Hogan since clearly nobody could ever possibly beat them in any form of a match.

There is your final 4, forever until the end of time. No point for a tournament anymore.

 

[Dan Severn's Moustache]

Glad we can agree that Cena did in fact lose those matches. Thanks.

Umm, there was never an argument over whether Cena lost those matches or not. The argument was my justification for Cena losing those matches from a booking perspective because his opponent had more to gain from winning than him. In this match, both Funk and Cena have an equal opportunity to gain from winning; which is an advancement to the next round.

Good old Slyfox, never one to disappoint. You can dismiss whatever you like, but even from your arrogant high horse, you cannot believe a man who does something more frequently is at a disadvantage to someone who rarely participates. So please continue to vote in your paint by numbers style regardless of common sense. Maybe next year we just throw out gimmick matches, location & everyone not named Cena, Rock, Austin or Hogan since clearly nobody could ever possibly beat them in any form of a match.

There is your final 4, forever until the end of time. No point for a tournament anymore.

And this is why your argument for Funk doesn't hold water: It is an argument based off emotion instead of from a rational standpoint.

 

[Slyfox696]

Good old Slyfox, never one to disappoint.

You know me, I aim to please.

You can dismiss whatever you like

I like to dismiss argument which are logically devoid. That's probably why I'm dismissing yours.

but even from your arrogant high horse

I don't own a horse, nor would I want to.

you cannot believe a man who does something more frequently is at a disadvantage to someone who rarely participates.

And you cannot believe that laying around on the mat or standing outside the ring for 15-20 minutes is anywhere close to the pace that John Cena regularly works, even in hour long matches.

So please continue to vote in your paint by numbers style regardless of common sense.

The only lack of common sense here is yours. You are literally trying to tell me, that someone with only one NWA world title to his name would win this match in New York City simply because he worked in an era in which national television was not a thing.

That's so far beyond absurd you should be ashamed of yourself.

Maybe next year we just throw out gimmick matches, location & everyone not named Cena, Rock, Austin or Hogan since clearly nobody could ever possibly beat them in any form of a match.

This isn't a match which favors Funk and we both agree Cena has had a much better career than Funk. So under what theory could you possibly vote for Funk over Cena, which holds any water?

There is your final 4, forever until the end of time. No point for a tournament anymore.

I sense pure emotion streaming from your keyboard. It makes sense, only emotion could have someone vote for Funk. It sure as hell wouldn't be logic or common sense.

 

[X]

Never watched Funk during the 70s and it's been a while since I've specifically watched his 80's stuff. I remember him going close to an hour or the full thing a few times, I mentioned that. Cena's also gone 60 more than once though which is why I said the stip doesn't really favor anyone.

And you would be hopelessly wrong. You remember Funk going close to an hour or the full thing a few times? Try two hundred times alone in one year as NWA champion. I'm pretty sure that's more ring time right there in that one year than Cena has logged in the last 10 years.

We're talking about a man who once wrestled two 60 minute matches in the same day, so yes the stip does favor someone and that someone is Terry Funk. Funk has so much more experience in a match of this length it's not even close, he has the edge in that department in every way.


Sad this isn't at least closer, but not the slightest bit surprised. I'd like to just briefly mention also that Funk's promo ability also completely embarrasses Cena. Cena's promos have been cringe worthy during these last few years, with godawful jokes that might make a 6 year old laugh. Terry Funk, meanwhile, has cut some of the most legendary promos ever. No one has EVER made me believe what they were saying as much as Funk. Holy fuck I wish I could find the footage of this one promo he cut after a tag match with his brother against Stan Hansen and Bruiser Brody in All Japan (I believe it was those two though it could have been Brody and Snuka) somewhere around 81-84 (my memory is shitting the bed here) where he's just a bloody mess raving lunatic scaring the shit out of thousands of Asian people, it's god damn glorious and a sight to behold. Fuck I have to find that now.

You can make an argument for Cena, but I'm going with Funk. Few people have made me fall in love with wrestling like Funk did.

Also, Terry Funk was in Road House. John Cena wasn't. Advantage: Funk.

 

[nightmare]

So now a logical vote is dismissed because I am emotional? You know what, my posts here make me satisfied. An emotion caused by knowing I can distinguish the difference between opponents in this match. Clearly others who have a good grasp & knowledge of wrestling feel the same way about Funk being able to win this & that he is not just a barbed wire madman. Not like we are voting Terry Taylor over Cena here or anything ridiculous.

So emotion? Yeah, but you take my sarcastic comments for a different emotion in another attempt to dismiss a logical argument.

But hey, Cena wins lol. Again, right?

 

[Bernkastel]

So now a logical vote is dismissed because I am emotional? You know what, my posts here make me satisfied. An emotion caused by knowing I can distinguish the difference between opponents in this match. Clearly others who have a good grasp & knowledge of wrestling feel the same way about Funk being able to win this & that he is not just a barbed wire madman. Not like we are voting Terry Taylor over Cena here or anything ridiculous.

So emotion? Yeah, but you take my sarcastic comments for a different emotion in another attempt to dismiss a logical argument.

But hey, Cena wins lol. Again, right?

Excuse me while I call bullshit on all of this. Lou Thesz had everything over Terry last round including a logical way to win the match. But instead it was dismissed because Terry is hardcore LOL. HE cannot be defeated LOL. And now you're going to complain when the Super Cena arguments are made against Funk here? Nope, bullshit. Funk had no business beating Thesz last round and he's paying for it here. Down by almost 30 votes because Funk just isn't in Cena's league as a pro wrestler. Period.

 

[nightmare]

Excuse me while I call bullshit on all of this. Lou Thesz had everything over Terry last round including a logical way to win the match. But instead it was dismissed because Terry is hardcore LOL. HE cannot be defeated LOL. And now you're going to complain when the Super Cena arguments are made against Funk here? Nope, bullshit. Funk had no business beating Thesz last round and he's paying for it here. Down by almost 30 votes because Funk just isn't in Cena's league as a pro wrestler. Period.

Well, shame on all the people who voted for Funk to beat your poster boy. How could we all be so blind to vote for someone WE thought could win the match over someone you have hanging over your bed. I understand the different criteria & even avoid shaming people who vote based on personal preference, but it amazes me when others dismiss rational thinking like they are talking to newbies or those with mental handicaps.

Debating sides is the fun part of this. Sometimes you come out on top, others not so much. I give Cena his credit, but also can put things into perspective & give Funk the credit he deserves that others are dismissing like the points are fiction. I have not complained people are voting for Cena, my point of contention is against those dismissing Funk like he is the Brooklyn Brawler or some jobber.

 

[Bernkastel]

Well, shame on all the people who voted for Funk to beat your poster boy. How could we all be so blind to vote for someone WE thought could win the match over someone you have hanging over your bed. I understand the different criteria & even avoid shaming people who vote based on personal preference, but it amazes me when others dismiss rational thinking like they are talking to newbies or those with mental handicaps.

Debating sides is the fun part of this. Sometimes you come out on top, others not so much. I give Cena his credit, but also can put things into perspective & give Funk the credit he deserves that others are dismissing like the points are fiction. I have not complained people are voting for Cena, my point of contention is against those dismissing Funk like he is the Brooklyn Brawler or some jobber.

I don't think anyone has dismissed Terry Funk as being some jobber. Clearly he wasn't. He was a former NWA champion and an influential figure in the hardcore wrestling scene in the 90's. He was a very accomplished star in his own right, but [insert which ever reason why Cena wins because he currently is.]

Also my portrait of Lou Thesz doesn't hang over my bed. It's in my living room.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

Well, shame on all the people who voted for Funk to beat your poster boy. How could we all be so blind to vote for someone WE thought could win the match over someone you have hanging over your bed. I understand the different criteria & even avoid shaming people who vote based on personal preference, but it amazes me when others dismiss rational thinking like they are talking to newbies or those with mental handicaps.

Debating sides is the fun part of this. Sometimes you come out on top, others not so much. I give Cena his credit, but also can put things into perspective & give Funk the credit he deserves that others are dismissing like the points are fiction. I have not complained people are voting for Cena, my point of contention is against those dismissing Funk like he is the Brooklyn Brawler or some jobber.

No offense, but the exact same thing was happening in Funk/Thesz too. Rational arguments for Thesz were pushed aside to push the crazy, hardcore, bionic Grandpa Terry Funk who was impervious to pain and would stop just short of murdering the passive, gentlemanly, straight arrow Thesz.

I kinda remember you doing exactly that in fact.

Ech is right. Cena's simply getting the same treatment in this match from others who disagree with you, that Funk got in the last round from you and others who agree with you. It goes both ways.

And honestly, if Thesz had won, Cena would still be getting the same treatment here. He did last year against Cena in this exact same match... despite every rational argument that stated otherwise (some of which you've used for Funk in this round).

I'd have loved to have seen Cena upset here just to inject some new blood in the later rounds and make things a little fresher. Funk unfortunately, is not the guy to do that though.

 

[Tastycles]

Terry Funk was a pretty good world Champion in the 1970s. John Cena is one of the greatest wrestlers of all time. Cena wins.

 

[nightmare]

No offense, but the exact same thing was happening in Funk/Thesz too. Rational arguments for Thesz were pushed aside to push the crazy, hardcore, bionic Grandpa Terry Funk who was impervious to pain and would stop just short of murdering the passive, gentlemanly, straight arrow Thesz.

I kinda remember you doing exactly that in fact.

Ech is right. Cena's simply getting the same treatment in this match from others who disagree with you, that Funk got in the last round from you and others who agree with you. It goes both ways.

And honestly, if Thesz had won, Cena would still be getting the same treatment here. He did last year against Cena in this exact same match... despite every rational argument that stated otherwise (some of which you've used for Funk in this round).

I'd have loved to have seen Cena upset here just to inject some new blood in the later rounds and make things a little fresher. Funk unfortunately, is not the guy to do that though.

Last round Ech was playing up how Thesz would just strech Funk without issue & also over exaggerating the Japanese Deathmatch thing. While people stated weapons would be used, nobody I can remember said Funk would go for small explosions & crazy shit like that. I was making it known that it is much harder to take a guy out who is trying to attack you with chairs, etc & called bullshit when Ech implied Funk would respect Thesz enough to keep it a simple wrestling match instead of grabbing something to clobber him with.

Some people then, as are now, seem to forget Funk was hard to keep down & would not just be a rag doll. Plus they seem to under sell the type of people he fought then, as I believe you pointed out.

I dont hate that Cena is winning & give credit where due, I just dislike when people gloss over the strengths or downplay attributes just because they are butthurt over another vote. Vote on who you like better for all I care, but just say that is what you are doing, especially if you have no real knowledge about the other guy. I know Ech has knowledge of Funk being great, but the stink off his posts here reek of frustration over last round, instead of making real arguments for Cena like others have. Cena is a badass, but I think Funk could win this. Neither is a bad vote.

The same thing drives me crazy in the Andre/Rock match. He was not just a super slow lumbering freak. The guy could move quite well back in the day & surely beat Rock, but you know, LOL Andre would get stuck outside cuz hes dumb & slow. His real strengths are downplayed or ignored because Rock made movies & is funny, so he could obviously beat a super slow giant & people hate that he went over Brock. I voted Brock last round, but was not hurt over him losing to a worthy opponent & wont ignore reason holding it against Andre in his current match.

Ok, im done now.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

Last round Ech was playing up how Thesz would just strech Funk without issue & also over exaggerating the Japanese Deathmatch thing. While people stated weapons would be used, nobody I can remember said Funk would go for small explosions & crazy shit like that. I was making it known that it is much harder to take a guy out who is trying to attack you with chairs, etc & called bullshit when Ech implied Funk would respect Thesz enough to keep it a simple wrestling match instead of grabbing something to clobber him with.

Some people then, as are now, seem to forget Funk was hard to keep down & would not just be a rag doll. Plus they seem to under sell the type of people he fought then, as I believe you pointed out.

I dont hate that Cena is winning & give credit where due, I just dislike when people gloss over the strengths or downplay attributes just because they are butthurt over another vote. Vote on who you like better for all I care, but just say that is what you are doing, especially if you have no real knowledge about the other guy. I know Ech has knowledge of Funk being great, but the stink off his posts here reek of frustration over last round, instead of making real arguments for Cena like others have. Cena is a badass, but I think Funk could win this. Neither is a bad vote.

The same thing drives me crazy in the Andre/Rock match. He was not just a super slow lumbering freak. The guy could move quite well back in the day & surely beat Rock, but you know, LOL Andre would get stuck outside cuz hes dumb & slow. His real strengths are downplayed or ignored because Rock made movies & is funny, so he could obviously beat a super slow giant & people hate that he went over Brock. I voted Brock last round, but was not hurt over him losing to a worthy opponent & wont ignore reason holding it against Andre in his current match.

Ok, im done now.

I saw A LOT of over exaggeration of the Japanese Death Match thing in the last round. I also saw a lot of the people over exaggerating the Japanese Death Match Terry Funk ignoring all the logical and historical points I made about those two in that exact same match because it didn't fit the narrative they wanted to use for the match.

That, unfortunately is the tournament for so many. It ALWAYS ends up coming down to who's more recent, who people like better, and how people want to see things unfold for themselves. It's a bit of an issue on a board where the vast majority of people's history only goes as far as 1997, and almost all the rest then just go back to 1987. You get stuff like someone coming in, seeing Dusty Rhodes versus Triple H, just thinking of the polka dots, and clicking the button for Triple H without another thought... or seeing Ted DiBiase and thinking of the guy that occasionally does backstage skits today and that he isn't that good... or Rick Rude and how if Koko B Ware is in the HOF and he isn't, he must have sucked... or Lou Thesz and that he was just a slow, boring old guy... or yeah, that Andre was so slow that he couldn't catch a speedster like the Rock or climb a ladder.

Plus yeah, so many only debate on their guys strengths, and it seems to them, the opponent is always just going to stand there and let their guy do whatever he will.

But it is what it is.

Myself, I love Funk. Some of my favorite Attitude Era memories are Funk and Foley. The angle with Flair in 1989 was brilliant. The empty arena match with Lawler is must see. Even the WWF feud with JYD (actually one of the first feuds I personally got into as a kid - JYD was my first favorite wrestler and at the time I HATED Terry Funk).

But I still voted Cena. While Funk would carry this match with his work, and would be a hell of a lot better than the vote, or some here are giving him credit for... in the end this would be Cena's match to lose. He's the bigger star (Terry's mostly been support guy or guy to get the star over for his entire career). This would be a great place for Terry to do what he really does better than anyone. Make someone else look amazing. He'd control the first 40 minutes, with some sneaky cheating, some technical prowess you might have forgotten he had, and some wild brawling. He'd probably be up 3-1 or 4-2 by that point, and would be looking strong. Then he'd give Cena the last 20 minutes to make a babyface comeback that was the stuff of legend, and Cena would take the deciding fall with about 3 minutes left. Funk would try everything at that point, but Cena's defense would be on point, and he'd come out on top... gaining the respect and appreciation of a whole new set of fans in the process.

 

[JJYanks121]

I'm really only posting here to bring up a logically fallacy that everyone seems to be ignoring.....

Consistency.

Maybe it's just me, but I feel that if you choose one round to determine that a wrestler would use his later style to defeat a legend, then you are determining that it is that version of the wrestler that is in the tournament. This argument applies to any long tenured wrestler, but let's focus on Funk.

In his early career, when he became NWA champion, he certainly was more of a brawler than his brother, but he wasn't the hardcore guy he would become. That is much later in his career, at a time that "going 60" would be much more difficult for him, and I think anybody would agree that a close to 50 years old Terry Funk cannot match stamina with a 30 year old John Cena.

I'd just like to see consistency, and not jumping around someone's career to suit your argument.