Cena Region, Fourth Round, 3 Stages of Hell Match: (2) Undertaker vs. (3) Lou Thesz

[klunderbunker]

This is a fourth round match in the Cena Region. It is a 3 Stages of Hell match. It will be held at the TD Banknorth Garden in Boston, Massachusetts.

Rules: This is a 2/3 falls match. The first fall is a street fight, the second fall is a ladder match and the third fall is a steel cage match which can be won by pinfall, submission or escaping the cage.

Assume one week has passed since the previous round so there may be some lingering damage.

#2. Undertaker

Vs.

#3. Lou Thesz

​

Polls will be open for five days following a one day period for discussion. Voting will be based on who you feel is the greater of the two competitors. Post your reasons for why your pick should win below. Remember that this is non-spam and the most votes in the poll win. Any ties will be broken by the amount of posts of support for each candidate, with one vote per poster. Assume that the wrestlers are coming in fresh after their first round match.

Also remember that this is a non-spam forum. If you post a response without giving a reason for your selection, it will be penalized for spam and deleted.

 

[The Gribbler]

I simply don't know enough about Thesz to make a judgment on this one. I will note that the three stages format likely advantages Thesz since he was a champion in the era when going broadway was a regular occurrence.

Although having said that, the ladder match format and hardcore wrestling style of the street fight would greatly advantage the Undertaker who went through the prime of his career in the Attitude Era when such matches were fairly common.

I guess Undertaker, but I am going to wait for more information before I cast a proper vote.

 

[Bernkastel]

2/3 fall matches ere something that Lou Thesz did day in and out for over 30 years. The biggest argument against Thesz is that he somehow "laid around and did nothing for 60 minutes." That's nonsense. If you've watched Lou's matches the pacing is always different. It can be fast or slow. I have seen him win falls in less than 5 minutes.

So let's run down what we do know about Lou Thesz...

1.) He was a superior technician. He he doesn't want Undertaker to leave his feet once grounded, then he wouldn't.

2.) He was faster than the Undertaker.

3.) He had more stamina. And before you argue "well the Undertaker's matches were faster paced and had fewer rest holds" if you were capable of going 60-90 minutes a match, 6 days a week, 400 times a year then you had to be in tip top shape. Just as much as any wrestler from the current era. So the pacing argument holds little water.

4.) Undertaker is stronger, but Lou can hold his own. Lou was 235 pounds at his peak. Roughly the same weight as Kurt Angle and Karl Gotch. Angle had no problem throwing Undy around, and Gotch had enough strength to suplex Andre the Giant.

Watch this clip starting at 3:05...

[youtube]r-yyLGoIHVQ[/youtube]

Lou Thesz was 56 years at the time of his match. His opponent was Seiji Sakaguchi - a 6'6 300 pound behemoth - Lou not only absorbed his punishing strikes, but he was able to suplex him for the pin with practically no effort.

In his younger days, Lou could match strength with legendary footballer Bronko Nagurski, former heavyweight boxing champion Primo Carnera, Bruno Sammartino, Killer Kowalski, and the 320 pound Don Leo Jonathon.

5.) Undertaker's not going to be able to overwhelm him. Undetaker's offense is mostly striking based. Lou's wrestling style is the perfect counter.

6.) Lou was just as tough a competitor as Taker. Judo Gene Lebell referred to Lou as the toughest fighter he had ever seen. And when the guy that trained Chuck Norris says you're tough, you'e fucking tough.

7.) Lou Thesz was smarter. Most of the rules and regulations of modern wrestling Lou helped create, and as such he was a master at using them to his advantage. Headbutts, eye gouges, biting, illegal holds. Thesz can and would use these to his advantage. Lou was not some just hero that played by the rules. He was a fierce competitor that showed his opponents no mercy.

8.) Lou was more dominant in kayfabe. He went 7 years without losing. Undertaker has lost against top stars like Austin, Hogan, Lesnar, and Rock more times than he has won. Lou Thesz was not just wrestling's, but one of the world's biggest and most recognizable sports star at his peak.

Undertaker went 20 years defeating wrestlers that were even the top stars of their eras for one night a year. Lou wrestled 936 matches without suffering a single defeat.

9.) Lou was arguably the greatest world champion of all time that carried wrestling to new heights. Undertaker was mostly a sideshow attraction that never carried any era he was champion in. He always played second fiddle to a more popular star. Lou Thesz was a globally known wrestling star decades before there were any globally known wrestling companies.

Modern fans tend to place Undertaker on a pedestal for various reasons. Mostly because he holds this appeal of being unstoppable. Well, do you know who held that reputation for a whole lot longer, even well into his 50's? Lou Thesz. He was always considered the man to beat, by fellow opponents and fans alike, even when he wasn't world champion.

So lets break down these matches. We have a street fight, a ladder match, and a cage match. We just voted Lou Thesz over one of the toughest men in history - Harley Race - in a street fight, so I fail to see how the match would be any different. Lou is no stranger to weapons, or to violence, and we've seen Undertaker take a beating many times before.

Undetaker has lost ladder matches and he has won ladder matches. However, climbing a ladder is not a foreign concept. It's something Lou could do very easily. And before you make the arguments "no one was doing high spots in the 50's or Lou as too much of a stiff to climb a ladder," wrestlers were already coming off the top turnbuckle by the 50's. By the 60's and 70's it was commonplace. Lou did what he needed to do as a performer to entertain the audience. If they wanted to see him climb a ladder then he would have done so. With his speed, he has the advantage.

The cage would just prevent Undy from running away when Lou has him tied up like a pretzel.

And above anything else Undertaker respected wrestlers. Those that were the real deal. And they don't come much more real than Lou Thesz. Undertaker wouldn't have a problem taking the "L" here. In fact he'd probably insist on it.

Vote Lou Thesz. It's the right decision.

 

[enviousdominous]

I.. am... so... torn.

I don't usually do this, but I'm going to hold my vote until I see some arguments. Right now I'm leaning toward Lou.

The Undertaker has some strong advantages going into this match. He effectively steam rolled Santo, and he's taking on Lou Thesz(albeit, one of the greatest of all time) who beat Harley Race by only one vote.

I realize that Lou is no slouch, but we have to take into consideration that he came out of a match against Harley Race. If Harley took Lou to the limit, I know that it would have been one hell of a barn burner.

I'm still reserving my vote however, mainly because Lou was never the type to slow down due to damage he'd received. I equate Lou's resilience to be about double that of Terry Funk, so I imagine he'd be extremely happy to finally be given a challenge like this one.

For the street fight, I'm leaning toward Taker. Nothing against Lou, but The Undertaker should not be sold short when it comes to his brawling and his ability to adapt to the chaos of a no-holds-barred weapon fight.

For the ladder match, I'm leaning toward Lou. Undertaker has more experience, but Lou could probably skip up the ladder in a split second. If Lou saw how slowly today's performers trudge up ladders, he'd force all of them into a month of hellish remedial training.

For the steel cage, I need help deciding, but the fact that a submission can decide the match makes me think that Lou has it. It didn't matter who you were back in the day, Lou could break you. If you were tougher, smarter and stronger then Lou, he had a strategy for you.

I'm not going to put in a write-in vote just yet, but if the buttons were unlocked right now, I'd be giving my vote to Lou.

 

[nightmare]

Leaning forward. I cant even decide right now. Both could take the match.

 

[Celtic Tiger]

I really can't decide on this one... two of the very best there has ever been... either would beat most other competitors on their best day, this one I wanna hear all the arguments to sway me... really don't know right now..

 

[Lowdown]

I've never watched a Lou Thesz match in my life. But I do know the guy pretty much laced up his boots until he died. I also know that both Thesz and Taker can wrestle just about anyone on the planet without fail. That said, given some of the previous arguments, I'm inclined to go with Lou. The era in which he was on top was a lot more grueling, and I don't know if Taker has met up with anyone with that kind of tenacity.

 

[therockiswwf]

Undertaker has the advantage here. Thez is not used to these types of matches. Thez might be tough but he doesn't know what the cold steel of a chair feels like. Thez might be able to take a punch to the face. Taker has taken a chair to the head and sat right back up. Taker has rarely lost by submission despite facing submission machines like Bret Hart. Undertaker also has mysterious powers that would very likely freak out and confuse Thez. Undertaker has been able to summon a lightning bolt. Thez would have no clue what is going on. If Taker gets caught, he could summon said lightning bolt and probably startle Thez enough to let go of the submission.

Undertaker likely has learned some MMA counters and could counter what Thez tries. Taker would also use styles that Thez is unfamiliar with.

Undertaker wins soundly.

 

[Bernkastel]

Undertaker has the advantage here. Thez is not used to these types of matches. Thez might be tough but he doesn't know what the cold steel of a chair feels like.

Unprotected chair shots to the head were illegal in Lou Thesz's day. So no. But that doesn't mean that Lou hasn't taken his fair share of hard shots. He knows what it feels like to be knocked from the ring apron and go flying into the barricade. He knows what it feels like to land hard on the floor outside. He knows what it feels like to be slammed into the turnbuckles or furniture on the outside.

Thez might be able to take a punch to the face. Taker has taken a chair to the head and sat right back up.

Lou suffered broken ribs during match, and still managed to gut it out and win. As Undertaker ever done that? Most modern wrestlers have never done that. Men less tough than Thesz have taken chair shots from the Undertaker and still beat him. If Undertaker brings a weapon into the match, then Thesz will have no problem using it himself if that's what the fans want to see.

Taker has rarely lost by submission despite facing submission machines like Bret Hart.

One of the known instances of Undertaker clearly tapping was due to Brock Lesnar's Kimura lock. A hold that Lou Thesz used frequently. It was one of his favorites. One wrong step and Undertaker would have his arm being wrenched from its socket again.

Undertaker also has mysterious powers that would very likely freak out and confuse Thez. Undertaker has been able to summon a lightning bolt. Thez would have no clue what is going on. If Taker gets caught, he could summon said lightning bolt and probably startle Thez enough to let go of the submission.

Please. Lou did not have time for clown gimmick wrestlers. He took pleasure in roughing them up. He was respected for being a wrestler. Everyone in his era knew this. Honkey Tonk Man was scared to death the first time he locked up with Thesz. Sabu's uncle the Sheik fled and hid under a bus during a match with him. The moment Undertaker does his little undead zombie shtick, Lou will kick the shit out of him. And then probably lock in the Kimura as a "fuck you."

Undertaker will likely wrestle as Big Evil out of respect.

Undertaker likely has learned some MMA counters and could counter what Thez tries. Taker would also use styles that Thez is unfamiliar with.

Lou Thesz was a hooker. Do you understand was that is? He was a catch wrestler. Like in legit MMA. Undertaker may know some maneuvers for show, but Lou knew how to apply them effectively in a real fight. There's nothing that Undertaker would have in his arsenal of subs that Lou hasn't already mastered.

As far as wrestling styles go, Lou knew them all. He could brawl and fly with the best of them from his era. If you have watched his matches you'd know that he threw dropkicks and cross bodies and head scissors all the time.

Undertaker wins soundly.

Soundly? Ha! I have seen modern street fighters that barely leave the ring, let alone become weapon laden bloodbaths. Lou has a winning record in Texas Death matches, meaning that he was brutal and efficient enough to keep opponents down for a 10 count. Lou himself has never been in a cage match, but he helped promote one on a card in Kuwait during the 80's. He knows the finer details. It doesn't take a scientist to figure out how to climb a ladder either.

2/3 falls matches are nothing new to Thesz. Hell even Taker's almighty piledriver is nothing new to Thesz. Lou soaked up 2 of them in a NWA world title match with Bill Longson in 1952.

You can see that here if you go about 7 minutes in...

[youtube]Wv8zz95Cvvw[/youtube]

...Lou was able to shrug off the affects of 2 piledrivers and still win the 3rd fall.

Undertaker really is in some deep shit here. He's up against an opponent that's not intimidated by him. Lou can keep him grounded on the mat at will and wear down his weak spots at his leisure. Lou's smarter. Lou's faster. Lou has better stamina. Lou wouldn't be afraid to play dirty and bend the rules. Undertaker will likely end up burning himself by the last fall trying to escape all the holds that Lou will have him wrapped up in and will likely end up either being suddenly pinned - sudden pins out of nowhere were a specialty of Lou's - or passing out to the same hold that Lesnar punished him with at Summerslam.

Lou wins.

 

[SSJPhenom]

Lou suffered broken ribs during match, and still managed to gut it out and win. As Undertaker ever done that? Most modern wrestlers have never done that. Men less tough than Thesz have taken chair shots from the Undertaker and still beat him. If Undertaker brings a weapon into the match, then Thesz will have no problem using it himself if that's what the fans want to see.

Don't sell 'Taker short in the toughness department. We've all heard the stories of the man taping a flack jacket to himself because he had broken his ribs but he was still going to go out a perform. Not because he had to, not because he was told to, but because his name was on the Marquee and it was the right thing to do. The man finished a match against Yoko where he had crushed his eye socket (might have been King Mabel) and was wrestling the next week wearing a mask. Remember that oh so famous HIAC match against Mankind? Well 'Taker went into that match with a broken ankle.

If you want to argue that Thesz is more conditioned to go the distance or even that he was a bigger name in his day, do that. You will not, however, argue that Thesz is tougher than 'Taker because I don't buy it. Also, the kayfabe argument favors 'Taker all the way. Thesz as little, if any, experience with these types of matches. 'Taker had one of these kinds of matches every week for years.

Given that, I'm going with 'Taker.

 

[OYDK]

If someone is arguing that Thesz is going to stretch, intimidate or rough-up Taker into submission in this match, which I'm almost certain somebody has mentioned, than I'm going to vote for Taker on principal alone. Thesz might have been a bad son of a bitch, all the stories that I've read on the guy seem to back that theory up. But I have no problem envisioning Taker, a proficient boxer and black belt in Brazilian jiu-jitsu in his own right, holding more than his own. If Thesz wants to turn this into a shoot, than Taker is just as likely to punch or stretch Thesz into submission than Thesz is Taker.

Thesz has never experienced any of these three types of matches in his 60 year career. Taker has competed in all of them and has shown that he can dish out punishment like nobody else can. If the friggin Undertaker can't deal out enough damage to keep Thesz down in matches as barbaric as these, than Lou must be from Krypton, because he's a real life Superman. Still, I don't dig this type of argument. If we're going to count out Thesz because he's never competed in a ladder match, we might as well just cancel out every wrestler from before the 80s.

The kayfabe argument would arguably go to Thesz. As good as Taker was, he was never the top guy in any era; Lou Thesz wasn't just the top guy of his era, but the best wrestler of his generation. He's somebody who could carry a company on his back pretty much by himself. Taker was never that guy. Honestly, this is tough. I haven't read through the arguments yet but I'm pretty sure I know what they're going to be anyway. Lou's at a disadvantage because he's unfamiliar with the match types, but Taker's stamina would work against him, especially against somebody as physically gifted as Thesz.

I think it all comes down to if Thesz can sustain the punishment that Taker is undoubtedly going to inflict on him. Thesz'll get his share of shots in but Taker has proven to be one of the most resilient wrestlers of all time in all kinds of different match types and scenarios. He's not just used to this environment, he's comfortable in it. All that being said, I'm leaning towards Thesz. Taker rarely beats the very top stars of the day; he never beat Michaels before his first retirement, he never pinned Bret in a singles match, he almost never beat Austin, etc. And, though it pains me to say it, he probably wouldn't have beaten Thesz either.

 

[Spidey Revivey]

I can't for the life of me see anybody from Thesz's era just casually ignore that they're fighting a guy that came to the ring with mysterious smoke, druids, fire, lightning, and ominous Satan music. I don't believe for a minute Thesz isn't reaching for a crucifix by that point. Bells and whistles matter in a fixed sport. Taker has always been about mind games, and he is not like anything Lou has ever been in the ring with. The moment he sits up and rolls his eyes is the moment any normal man gets the fuck out of the ring.

Yes, I'm using a horror movie argument, because I can't see a guy like Lou no-sell the mystique of Taker when everybody else has. If this were Biker Taker I see no reason Thesz shouldn't beat him to death, but characters have always mattered in pro wrestling, and prime Taker was pretty much Lucifer.

Vote Taker.

 

[Bernkastel]

Undertaker also has mysterious powers that would very likely freak out and confuse Thez. Undertaker has been able to summon a lightning bolt. Thez would have no clue what is going on. If Taker gets caught, he could summon said lightning bolt and probably startle Thez enough to let go of the submission.

I can't for the life of me see anybody from Thesz's era just casually ignore that they're fighting a guy that came to the ring with mysterious smoke, druids, fire, lightning, and ominous Satan music. I don't believe for a minute Thesz isn't reaching for a crucifix by that point. Bells and whistles matter in a fixed sport. Taker has always been about mind games, and he is not like anything Lou has ever been in the ring with. The moment he sits up and rolls his eyes is the moment any normal man gets the fuck out of the ring.

If someone is arguing that Thesz is going to stretch, intimidate or rough-up Taker into submission in this match, which I'm almost certain somebody has mentioned, than I'm going to vote for Taker on principal alone.

This point seemed to be lost on the whole lot of you. If we are assuming that Taker will use his magical zombie powers to influence this match because that's the nature of his character, then we should also assume that Lou will shove his boot up Taker's ass for real because that was the nature of his "character." Lou didn't rough up gimmick wrestlers to be a dick. He did it in order to protect the industry. None of you have taken into consideration that Lou came from an era where fans still treated the industry as being legitimate, while still buying into all the drama and excitement.

Lou didn't respect performers that solely relied on a gimmick because he thought that they made the business look phony. So he roughed them up to remind them that the industry was a performance art that was rooted in legitimacy first, and a circus act second. And his presence in the 60's and 70's provided the credibility that the industry needed to maintain its legitimacy. He was like Lesnar today, who is regarded as one of the few credible fighters in an ocean full of fakers and phonies. And like Lesnar, Lou was placed on a pedestal due to his skills.

To my knowledge this is not a modern tournament that is set in 2017. If it were there would no point in arguing prime vs prime. It would be 52 year old Undertaker versus a casket, because Lou has been dead the past 15 years. You can't just assume that Lou would buy into Undertaker's gimmick and ignore all the principles he stood for just because the industry works differently today.

Lou would not buy into the Undertaker's mystique. Why would he? He spent 40 years roughing up those that he thought were clowns because in his eyes they were fucking up the industry. Undertaker would respect this. He came up during the tail end of the territorial era. He took his share of ass whipping's to pay his dues.

Lou's was fair though. He respected gimmick wrestlers that had legit skill - like Gorgeous George. He very likely would respect Undertaker too, for his legit skill. But at the same time Undertaker would show Thesz the due respect and not even use the Deadman gimmick, because he'd recognize that Lou represents the legitimacy of what this sport used to be. He'd fight as Biker Taker; which was less of a gimmick and an extension of the man's true self. That's a point that I made earlier.

So if you're going to justify a vote for Undertaker on the basis that he's a magical undead zombie with supernatural powers, and would summon fire and lightning and no sell everything, you could certainly justify a vote for Thesz on the basis that he would just shoot on Taker and damn near try to tear his arm or leg off.

 

[Spidey Revivey]

Why should one wrestler's era be more important than the other's?

In what universe is it okay for a wrestler to drop a gimmick "out of respect"?

Doesn't make any sense. Both men are assumed to be in their prime for this fight. They both are highly decorated champions. Taker bending to what Thesz would want is not a real argument. But I'll bite. Let's pretend Undertaker is not in his prime and is going with the Biker gimmick to appease a fellow wrestler for some strange reason.

2/3 fall matches ere something that Lou Thesz did day in and out for over 30 years.

And lost in. Lou Thesz has forfeited a 2/3 Falls Match before, to an opponent that is not as revered as The Undertaker. He quit.

Why would he not do the same here? He beat Harley Race with 51% of the vote. Taker won 100%. If he can drop the title in the middle of a match due to back problems, then surely he can lose a 2/3 Falls match here when he barely beat Race and he is against a fresh Undertaker.

 

[Bernkastel]

Why should one wrestler's era be more important than the other's?

Did I say that? That wasn't my point. My point is that you can't just assume that Thesz would buy into the mystique of the Undertaker character because the wrestlers of the current era do. He never bought into gimmick wrestlers before so why would he start doing it for this match?

In what universe is it okay for a wrestler to drop a gimmick "out of respect"?

If it's okay for Undertaker to use the powers of his gimmick then it should be okay for Thesz to rough him up for disrespecting the industry and making it look phony.

And I'm sure you'll respond "well, the industry IS phony because it's all a show." In Thesz's era it wasn't. It was entertainment; but fans still treated the industry with legitimacy.

This argument goes both ways. You can't expect Thesz to just magically buy into the Undertaker's gimmick without expecting the Undertaker to drop the gimmick out of respect for Thesz, and what he stood for.

Taker bending to what Thesz would want is not a real argument.

But pretending that Thesz just suddenly being afraid of Undertaker's zombie power is?

But I'll bite. Let's pretend Undertaker is not in his prime and is going with the Biker gimmick to appease a fellow wrestler for some strange reason.

Doesn't the Undertaker technically have multiple primes?

And lost in. Lou Thesz has forfeited a 2/3 Falls Match before, to an opponent that is not as revered as The Undertaker. He quit.

Why would he not do the same here? He beat Harley Race with 51% of the vote. Taker won 100%. If he can drop the title in the middle of a match due to back problems, then surely he can lose a 2/3 Falls match here when he barely beat Race and he is against a fresh Undertaker.

The Carpentier match was politically motivated, and was a formality that Thesz had to follow in order to go to Japan. The NWA didn't even come to recognize the title change. Lou remained world champion. This match against the Undertaker would be untouched by politics. The NWA wouldn't be forcing him into a spot where he'd have to drop anything. Thesz would have no reason to throw an important match like this.

 

[Spidey Revivey]

I'll eat my hat if Lou Thesz's shtick was beating up gimmicky wrestlers. If you're arguing how he felt outside of the ring, then to me that has no real merit for this tournament whatsoever. Same reason I don't vote against Benoit on principle alone. If you can show me instances where he acted this way inside the ring then I will concede the character argument.

Real life feelings don't amount much in a battle with a predetermined outcome.

And I'm sure you'll respond "well, the industry IS phony because it's all a show." In Thesz's era it wasn't. It was entertainment; but fans still treated the industry with legitimacy.

Fans treating wrestling one way doesn't magically change it. As much as it hurts, I know Roman Reigns isn't the bad guy, despite how loud the fans boo. Treating it one way doesn't pertain to shit. Matt Hardy and Zack Ryder would have been WWE Champions if the fans had their way.

This argument goes both ways. You can't expect Thesz to just magically buy into the Undertaker's gimmick without expecting the Undertaker to drop the gimmick out of respect for Thesz, and what he stood for.

If you will show me a moment where a wrestler dropped a gimmick to compete in a match, then I'll buy this. But to drop anything would also be showing how fake the sport really is, since now the fans know there's no mystique to Taker- the thing that makes him Taker. If Thesz really cared about the industry that was more spectacle than authentic, I doubt he'd want to break kayfabe. Especially when he came from a place where heels and faces never mingled in public.

But pretending that Thesz would just suddenly being afraid of Undertaker zombie power is?

Just as valid as pretending Taker would give up what made him Taker just to make his opponent happy.

Doesn't the Undertaker technically have multiple primes?

I disagree with this notion, but if he does, that only makes his legacy more awesome than I realized. But I'd rather just discuss how American Badass Taker would fair in 3 Stages of Hell, a match Lou could lose even if it were a plain 2/3 falls match.

At first I was against Biker Taker beating Thesz, but this is changing my mind.

The Carpentier match was politically motivated, and was a formality that Thesz had to follow in order to go to Japan. The NWA didn't even come to recognize the title change. Lou remained world champion. This match against the Undertaker would be untouched by politics. The NWA wouldn't be forcing him into a spot where he'd have to drop anything. Thesz would have no reason to throw an important match like this.

None of which changes the fact he not only lost, but forfeited a match similar to this one.


He beat Harley Race with 2.44% of the vote. Last round is supposed to carry over. How is he going to beat anybody with that much damage lingering? If anything, this is looking more and more like The Phenom's battle to win, one where Lou Thesz wouldn't lose prestige in any way. If he can claim his back hurt so he forfeited, there is nothing stopping him from doing it again.

 

[sikkbones]

Taker has went toe to toe with lesnar more than once.

And believe at one point taker wanted to meet lesnar in the ufc.

As legit a bad ass theze was.

There's always someone bigger bladder and better.

 

[Bernkastel]

If you will show me a moment where a wrestler dropped a gimmick to compete in a match, then I'll buy this. But to drop anything would also be showing how fake the sport really is, since now the fans know there's no mystique to Taker- the thing that makes him Taker. If Thesz really cared about the industry that was more spectacle than authentic, I doubt he'd want to break kayfabe. Especially when he came from a place where heels and faces never mingled in public.

Wrestling was not more spectacle than authentic in Thesz's era. Lou was a performer, but his goal was to entertain while maintaining an aura of realism. This changed in the 80's when wrestling became purely about entertainment.

You are asking Thesz to swallow his pride and treat the industry like we do in the modern era, and that doesn't make any sense. That's no different than asking Taker to give up his gimmick.

Just as valid as pretending Taker would give up what made him Taker just to make his opponent happy.

Is Biker Taker somehow less of an entity than Deadman Taker?

I disagree with this notion, but if he does, that only makes his legacy more awesome than I realized. But I'd rather just discuss how American Badass Taker would fair in 3 Stages of Hell, a match Lou could lose even if it were a plain 2/3 falls match.

What exactly is Undertaker's prime then?

None of which changes the fact he not only lost, but forfeited a match similar to this one.

Okay, so what are the politics that are forcing Lou Thesz to quit this match. That's a silly argument.

He beat Harley Race with 2.44% of the vote. Last round is supposed to carry over.

Lou has had a full week to recover from that match. This was a man that wrestled intense matches like the one he had with Race 6-8 times a week, 400 times a year, while constantly traveling. It took 7 years for him to get burned out by that schedule. And then a few years later he won the world title again and underwent that grueling schedule all over again.

And despite that grueling schedule he still remained one of the most dominant forces in the wrestling industry during his prime.

How is he going to beat anybody with that much damage lingering?

Lou is not going to be anywhere near as damaged as you think.

If he can claim his back hurt so he forfeited, there is nothing stopping him from doing it again.

Again, what politics are in play that are forcing Lou Thesz to quit?

 

[stingray11214]

Here in front of us are two iconic wrestlers, Taker and Thesz, who took the art of Professional wrestling and set it on its ear. Taker took a character that was supposed to fail spectacularly, and turned it into a legend. Lout Thesz put the industry of pro wrestling onto his broad shoulders and ran it towards new heights. The problem with all this is while Taker got a gimmick over, THesz had no use for "gimmick" wrestlers. People like The Sheik and Gorgeous George were prime targets for humiliation by the skilled Thesz. As much as I enjoyed Taker, and he deserves his place in the Pantheon of the greats, Lou Thesz would have humiliated Taker to the point where Taker might actually consider rebranding himself to Mean Mark Callous again. Thesz for the win.

 

[Spidey Revivey]

Wrestling was not more spectacle than authentic in Thesz's era. Lou was a performer, but his goal was to entertain while maintaining an aura of realism. This changed in the 80's when wrestling became purely about entertainment.

Still doesn't make his era part of real wrestling.

You are asking Thesz to swallow his pride and treat the industry like we do in the modern era, and that doesn't make any sense. That's no different than asking Taker to give up his gimmick.

Swallow his pride by facing a wrestler who doesn't even use hocus pocus when he fights? Not exactly offensive stuff here, even for a purist that he seems to be.

What, is he so adamant about gimmicks that he would refuse to show up? If so, another point for Taker.

Is Biker Taker somehow less of an entity than Deadman Taker?

I've already argued Biker Taker could still win, so no. Though I do believe American Badass Undertaker was not his prime, but that is entirely subjective and has no real bearing in this discussion.

What exactly is Undertaker's prime then?

I'd argue his prime was as the satanic Lord of Darkness when the commentary team was even going on about how Mark Calloway honestly believed he was a sorcerer.

But if you believe he had multiple primes, then I don't see how that is a negative for Undertaker. So...another reason to vote for him?

Okay, so what are the politics that are forcing Lou Thesz to quit this match. That's a silly argument.

1. You're arguing real world issues, not the kayfabe one Thesz claimed happened. My argument has been solely on what makes for Thesz's character. If you have to go dig it up online to see what happened in reality, then it's not pro wrestling anymore. It's biographical research.

2. He still forfeited in a match that is pretty much this one, but not juiced up.

Lou has had a full week to recover from that match. This was a man that wrestled intense matches like the one he had with Race 6-8 times a week, 400 times a year, while constantly traveling. It took 7 years for him to get burned out by that schedule. And then a few years later he won the world title again and underwent that grueling schedule all over again.

And despite that grueling schedule he still remained one of the most dominant forces in the wrestling industry during his prime.


Lou is not going to be anywhere near as damaged as you think.

What's the point of carrying over damage, then? One can argue that, while not as grueling as working day in day out, Taker came from a time where busting your head open was considered the norm. When do we draw the line on how much a wrestler is hurt if they won a match here by ONE VOTE?

Again, what politics are in play that are forcing Lou Thesz to quit?

Is that what played out on radio/TV/at the arena? Or was it real, which again, pro wrestling isn't.

 

[Bernkastel]

Still doesn't make his era part of real wrestling.

Fans believed it was real. They believed the action was real and they believed the drama was real. Today everything is a show and we know that everything is staged.

Swallow his pride by facing a wrestler who doesn't even use hocus pocus when he fights? Not exactly offensive stuff here, even for a purist that he seems to be.

The arguments presented in this thread were that Undertaker could summon lightning as a way to psyche Lou out. That wouldn't fly.

What, is he so adamant about gimmicks that he would refuse to show up? If so, another point for Taker.

Now you are just making stuff up. Show me an instance where Lou Thesz refused to fight a wrestler because they had a gimmick he didn't like.

I've already argued Biker Taker could still win, so no. Though I do believe American Badass Undertaker was not his prime, but that is entirely subjective and has no real bearing in this discussion.

Taker could win, but is he likely too? No. He has a losing record against the top stars of his era: Hogan, Austin, Rock, and Lesnar. Lou Thesz was the Hogan of his era. In this match, it's going to be his name on the marquee drawing in fans; not Taker's.

I'd argue his prime was as the satanic Lord of Darkness when the commentary team was even going on about how Mark Calloway honestly believed he was a sorcerer.

No comment.

But if you believe he had multiple primes, then I don't see how that is a negative for Undertaker. So...another reason to vote for him?

Lou had multiple primes too. He was a huge star in wrestling consistently for 40 years. Twice as long as Taker.

1. You're arguing real world issues, not the kayfabe one Thesz claimed happened. My argument has been solely on what makes for Thesz's character. If you have to go dig it up online to see what happened in reality, then it's not pro wrestling anymore. It's biographical research.

2. He still forfeited in a match that is pretty much this one, but not juiced up.

So? There's no set criteria for arguments here. You could have voted for Undertaker simply because you liked him more. The reality behind his forfeit was politically based. The kayfabe outcome of the match was completely ignored anyways. I don't have proof, but the injury was likely fabricated as a way to write Thesz off to the media so that they didn't follow him to Japan.

What's the point of carrying over damage, then? One can argue that, while not as grueling as working day in day out, Taker came from a time where busting your head open was considered the norm. When do we draw the line on how much a wrestler is hurt if they won a match here by ONE VOTE?

I never said damage wouldn't carry over. I said that Lou wouldn't be as damaged as you were trying to make him out to be. Lou was used to working a grueling schedule. I said that despite it all he was able to endure it and still win 99% of the time. There's your kayfabe argument.

7 years undefeated. 936 consecutive victories to his name.

Is that what played out on radio/TV/at the arena? Or was it real, which again, pro wrestling isn't.

The kayfabe of him "quitting due to injury" wasn't even recognized by the NWA. He still remained champion. By that logic, Lou Thesz quits this match and gets a free bye because the NWA doesn't recognize Taker as a legitimate competitor to Thesz. This 2/3 falls match would be buried in history.

 

[Hyorinmaru]

This match is so close I feel I need to get my written vote in for Lou Thesz and a big reason for that is the gimmick of the match.

As is stated above Thesz is one of the best shooters in the business and while i don't want to say Undertaker was all gimmick it was something he relied heavily on. Based on actual in ring talent Thesz would take this with Speed and Agility.

For me they would split the first 2 falls with Taker winning the street fight and Thesz managing the ladder match making it all come down to the cage match. By this time Undertaker would be completely gassed and while Thesz would be winded he was used to going as long as this match would probably take. In the Cage I see Thesz using that shoot style on 'Taker's already beat up legs to keep him from being able to walk or do much of anything and he would walk out for the win.

 

[nightmare]

Voted Taker. Thanks Spidey.


When Taker hits the ring, Thesz is gonna be thrown off. Having never seen anything like this before, he will keep hammering in disbelief as Taker does his deadman thing and puts Lou down for the first fall. The mental game and Taker being a force makes it a good bet.

Second round Thesz regroups and gets a better plan going. The advantage here is going to be Lou having more speed/stamina while Taker starts to lose gas. Taker sits up just as Lou gets to the top of the ladder, but it is too late.

Third fall is where Thesz finds out who Taker really is. The guy has a mystique of indestructible resilience that is legendary. Comes back from the dead, buried alive, etc. Besides the paranormal kayfabe stuff, how many times has the guy been beaten dead to rights, yet he still won? Thesz would have the same struggle. After a huge old west gunfight of a match, Taker drops him with the second Tombstone in a row & its over.

 

[Tastycles]

I think Lou Thesz has both the mental toughness and the stamina to win this match. Tough enough to hang in early doors, Undertaker has shown his vulnerability in a ladder match when Jeff Hardy, who was losing handicap matches at that point, almost beat him for the World Heavyweight Championship in one, and he lost to Edge in one, despite beating him in just about every other scenario.

Thesz would win the Ladder match. By the time we get to the cage, they will have been wrestling for a lot longer, and Thesz would be able to have the survivor and the staying power to beat Undertaker. Taker has shown with Shawn Michaels, Mick Foley and Shane McMahon that despite being able to dominate opponents for a long time, it takes a long time for him to put them away. If he doesn't put Thesz away quickly, and the evidence is that he wouldn't, then it becomes more likely that Thesz will win. For me, Thesz wins this.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

If you want to look for modern in ring comparables to Thesz, look to Angle or Lesnar. if Lou Thesz wrestled in modern times, that's a cross of who he'd be in the ring.

Angle had Undertaker's number in big matches. Lesnar ended the streak.

If you want to compare what each meant to their respective era's? Both were probably the most respected of their times. Undertaker was always ONE OF the top wrestlers of his era.

Thesz was THE top wrestler of his era. And the era right after his era too!

Thesz always has trouble going as far as he should in this tournament because too many people have a hard time looking past the black and white photography and overcoming recency bias. The truth is, when you are talking about Lou Thesz, you are talking about one of the most important figures in wrestling history. You absolutely cannot name another name that isn't as important as Thesz, and if he'd never gone into wrestling... the sport that you all watch today would be VERY different.

Lou Thesz was a bigger deal than the Undertaker... and that is NOT a knock on the Undertaker.

Thesz should win.