At What Point Will WWE Realize that Roman is Not Good Enough?

Discussion in '[Hidden] World Wrestling Entertainment' started by CyberPunk, Sep 5, 2017.

  1. CyberPunk

    CyberPunk The Show himself

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    ...as a face. His whole mannerism screams heel. In last couple years or so, I don't remember a promo or skit in which he came across as likeable.

    Now, I don't dislike Roman, far from it. I feel he has really improved in last couple of years. But knowing how the fans take him, it's almost impossible to get him over as a face. He'll always get boos no matter what. He's also not good enough on the mic to actually sell as a good face. In fact, his mic work is cold, something which is way more usable as a heel than as a fiery face. He can put on entertaining matches, but even in match mannerisms do nothing to feel like face. However, his over-all demeanor screams mega heel. Everything he does would make more sense as a heel.

    The thing that bothers me even more is that amount of heat WWE sacrificed to try to put him over as face which they could've easily harnessed to put him over as heel. The whole WrestleMania 32 and 33 stories should've been about Roman being mega heel when he had paramount heat on him. How WWE, or specifically Vince, can't see that is beyond me.
     
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  2. shooter_mcgavin

    shooter_mcgavin Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    I think the WWE knows this but I don't really think the company cares.

    WWE is currently making money in spite of Reigns failing as the top baby face. They just need Reigns to represent the company more or less.

    What i've come to realize is that WWE is more of a corporate brand now than a wrestling promotion and it's more important for them to position their brand (videogames, reality shows, the network, merchandise, etc) than creating a hot wrestling product.
     
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  3. khaled

    khaled New Member

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    I think WWE's fan reception right now has a whole different metric to it. Most fans still wear the traditional lens of looking at superstar development and them going over. I am assuming that WWE has a whole different way of looking at their talent right now. Albeit Roman's development amidst a sea of great talent that deserve to be "over" him, I still think he deserves the number 1 spot. Vince probably sees a future in him more than anybody else. And for someone like Vince to stick to such a vision is not a matter of bad decision making, but rather a matter of deep and wide experience as a chairman and CEO of an empower. I think that's what most fans today miss.

    I wholeheartedly trust Vince and his direction because nobody in this industry can run this empire better than him. Stephanie or Paul won't come close to his caliber of leadership, creative decisions, and vision.

    Now, from a fan perspective, I really think we need to just chill out and let WWE do their thing. The way they listen to us right now is different. They don't care whether we boo or cheer. They care about noise. Noise, to them, equals "over". No noise = bad business. The more noise Roman gets, the better. Same goes for Cena.

    I also believe that the fans who are dying to see Roman (or Cena, for that matter) turn heel need to just let go. I'm starting to think it's just a matter of believing that a change in 'flavor' will help. But it won't. At all. The whole 'heel vs face' approach to script writing from creative is something WWE doesn't really invest much in as a KPI for its superstars getting over. Now it's noise + merch sales + ticket sales + business future. Back then, I feel, it was mostly boos/cheers + ticket sales, and the merch and biz future came along.

    So, I believe that if we spent time looking at WWE's approach and just appreciating it for what it is AND trusting that they know how to do their job with Roman and the likes of him then we'll just enjoy the product more and stop worrying about whether Roman deserves to be in his current or projected spot or not.

    P.S: I see A LOT of potential in Roman. Times have changed. They don't rise to the top as smoothly and quickly as they did back then.
     
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  4. Psykohurricane55

    Psykohurricane55 Moderator
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    The problem is that when you go to live event which have more families then adult wrestling fans. Reigns is the most over guy on the roster so in their mind, reigns is over as a babyface so they see him as a new version of cena.

    Reigns is making money for them in his current incarnation so that another thing fans don't think about when talking about reigns and in the end, it's all about the money. Like a lot of guy in the business said before, fans do pay money to either cheer or boo reigns so why change anything, they actually are doing something right with him if he getting lounder reaction then 95% of the roster.

    So for all the haters, I think you have the right to hate him if you want but you also need to understand that wwe won't change their plan because you don't like him. You guys are reacting as much to reigns has people that actually like him so in yhey're mind, they have created a new Cena. So if you want reigns to change or wwe o change their mind on reigns, stop reacting to him, that's the only way something will change.
     
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  5. GOOZEKING

    GOOZEKING Getting Noticed By Management

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    First of all Vince is too stubborn to admit he was wrong and to turn Roman Heel.
    Second of all, in today's wwe casuals do not care who is the top babyface. Fans are not buying tickets and going to wwe events for Roman or anyone they buy tickets to go to a WWE event. Wwe brand itself is bigger than any superstar that's why they can sell out events just by their brand alone so it does not matter to them who is face or heel. Reigns is making a consistent amount of money and get a reaction so that's all Vince cares about.

    It's honestly amazing that there has never been a time where a promoter has pushed someone as their top guy for so long and hasn't taken no for an answer. Personally, I see Roman as A top guy but I don't think he can be THE top guy. It's just when you look at Roman and you compare his positives and negatives with other top guys on the roster. I don't think he is any higher than other top guys. To me Roman is on the same level as a Rollins, Bray, a Joe. You know TOP guys just not THE top guy
     
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  6. kwig2121

    kwig2121 Dark Match Winner

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    So let me ask several questions that maybe the board can answer? What makes someone a "top guy?" Who chooses the "top guy?" and lastly if not Roman then who?

    In my opinion Vince Mcmahon has always chosen the top guy. We the fans didn't get a choice that it was Hulk Hogan. He had interview charisma, peronality but stunk as a wrestler with maybe two moves. But no matter what he was Vince's guy.

    We didn't choose Bret Hart who could wrestle not draw. Or Shawn Michaels...the fans booed the Rock and Cena. The only guy the fans swelled to that Vince had to change his character was Austin.

    What makes a top guy?? Talking on the mic...promos? That's part of it. If that was the case Miz would be the champ...ohh he was but couldn't draw. Getting the most cheers. If that was the case Ambrose would still be the champ but he couldn't draw. Having great skills....Nakumura has em...but his promos are weak...time will tell if he can draw.

    So if not Roman...who? Who is the guy? Finn Balor...give him a title and he is too small for the WWE 365 day grind and gets hurt. Seth Rollins...love him to death ...he too not an interview king and injury prone. Joe.....has the skills but physically is this the top headlining draw for your company. Last but not least today's flavor Braun Stroman. If he keeps on this pace he is a title contender...but how long is his window?

    My point. You tube videos #1 WWE most watched ..Roman Reigns. Merchandise #2 Roman Reigns. Fued of the year...Strowman vs ummm Roman Reigns. Loudest reaction....Roman Reigns...you get my point.

    It's not like Reigns can't wrestle. Doesn't bust his behind 365 without getting hurt. His weakest part yeah is his promos, because he needs to be taken off script like Rock, Cena, Austin, etc.

    You can dislike him all you want but AJ Styles isn't on Raw. Roman Reigns is the guy, the choice. It's time we stop making excuses and except the reasons why.
     
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  7. Woodstuff

    Woodstuff Pre-Show Stalwart

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    Stop it bro, you're making too much sense.

    Fact of the matter is, Roman won the Rumble when fans wanted D Bry to stand tall. That, coupled with the fact Roman's position as "next face of WWE" leaked on dirtsheets shortly before hand, lead to massive fan backlash. They wanted Bryan to be the face of the company, and Reigns became the target of that frustration. If it hadn't been leaked, no one would 'hate' Roman anywhere near as much as they do now. Some people are just miserable and like to vent and complain for as long as possible, I guess.

    EDIT: The reinforcement hating Reigns receives on social media doesn't help either. People read others saying Reigns can't talk, can't wrestle, can't draw etc, and they go with it. Read enough of something you want to believe online, and eventually you're gonna be convinced it's true
     
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  8. The Perfect Max

    The Perfect Max I Am Jericho

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    At this point, I find it quite funny that people don't realise that they have the power to dictate a face or a heel. That's the wrestling world that we live in. Especially in the WWE. Braun Strowman is a prime example of a guy who is the prototype heel, and yet he is one of the biggest "faces" on the main roster because the fans are cheering the absolute hell out of everything that he does. The same goes for Roman Reigns. WWE have built him up to be the prototype face of the company, and while many fans reject this, he still remains one of the biggest merchandise sellers, receives one of the loudest reactions every week consistently, and continues to put on very good matches. Was he not the heel in the match against Undertaker this year? Because from the fan perspective, it sure seemed like it. Nobody was cheering for him. They wanted his ass to get kicked. The same goes for his feud with Cena. He's the one who's been put in that heel position, if there even is one in this feud. My point is that the fans have been choosing where Roman Reigns fits in particular feuds and what role he plays for a long time now, and WWE place Reigns in feuds with guys like Taker, Cena, Lesnar and Strowman, and even to an extent with Jericho and Owens, because they know that the other guy can balance it out. Admittedly that wasn't the case a few years ago, but it is now.

    Sometimes the school yard asshole doesn't even know that they're the asshole. And even if they do know, when they are standing up for themselves and what they believe in, it doesn't make a difference to them. His feud with Cena right now epitomises this. He believes in what he says. The fans can take it or reject it. But he will stand up for it, and most of the time, he proves himself in the eventual match. That's Roman Reigns, and you can decide if he is a face or a heel. I can see it now. It's just like how we have talked about with Cena for years and years. Will he ever turn? Will WWE ever see sense? WWE are playing to their strengths with Reigns, like they always did with Cena. And it works.
     
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  9. Deoxyribonucleic A.C.I.D.

    Deoxyribonucleic A.C.I.D. Kamehamehaaaaa!!

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    Roman had the most merch buys during WM weekend. Which means that Roman is printing them money that's coming from the casual fans. Heel turns usually result in lower merch sales. Ask CM Punk. His merch went down when he turnt heel in 2012 and that was one of the reasons he didn't want to do it, but he did it anyway so that he could keep the title and face The Rock.

    Also, WWE is a brand. Which means they have to appeal to multiple other factors like sponsors and TV people and commercial people and all that stupid ass things, before they appeal to the fans. That's why WWE simply can't have a top cool heel representing the company. Reigns as a heel means blood and destruction for anyone in his way. It means cockiness. WWE can't have that. In WCW? Yeah Reigns is a heel. In NJPW? Yeah Reigns would be a heel. Not in the WWE though, because simply put WWE don't work that way.

    Sure a heel turn and a good run from Reigns as a heel would improve his connection to the audience. But it would also mean that for a sort period of time WWE loses a lot of merch sales. As long as Reigns sells and as long as he gets so loud reactions, WWE will never do anything with him in a different way. It's simple.

    Plus, to all the people that believe that if Reigns was pushed down the card his reactions would change, welll, he was in the midcard after his violation. Still got the loudest boos or cheers depending on the area he was in.

    Reigns as a heel would indeed make an interesting programm but as one poster above me said, WWE ain't aiming at an interesting programm anymore.
     
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  10. V Dogg

    V Dogg Occasional Pre-Show

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    Nowadays, the fans choose the faces and the heels. They cheer the designated heels and boo the designated faces for the most part. I think I read somewhere that if WWE makes someone heel, the fans will come to like them and cheer, and vice versa for the faces. You can do everything right in your role and the fans will respond with how they feel. If everyone on the roster swapped roles RIGHT NOW, fans will be happy for a few weeks, then fans will start to turn and WWE would swap the roles right back. Then fans would be happy for a few weeks before turning again, therefore creating this conundrum on who's really face and who's really heel.

    In other words, it's hard to please fans nowadays.
     
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  11. legendkiller1979

    legendkiller1979 Pre-Show Stalwart

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    I'm so glad this topic has been brought up. I love all the talk about how Roman isn't good enough, he's not going to be the next guy, he's boring, blah blah, blah. Wrestling fans really need to get over themselves.

    "Because I don't like him, that guy sucks. By dumping all over everything, I'm the smartest guy in the room and by hating that guy, I know how to make things better. I should be the writer." Let's be honest, that's the general tone of so many of these threads, and this one is no different.

    Don't get me wrong, there is some legitimicy to the argument. But longtime fans need to realize that it isn't all about them. The WWE has nothing to worry about when comes to the fans that respond to these forums. As long as they are complaining, they are watching. (I do love the fans who criticize the product while admitting they haven't watched in months) These fans aren't going anywhere.

    Since the WWE has this demographic sewn up,they need to attract new fans. Roman Reigns is great for that role. He looks like a super hero and is someone that young kids can look up to.

    Bottom line, Roman is making the WWE lots of money and the young fans love him. It's time for long time fans to accept that. Go ahead and continue to critcize Roman. It just means that you are still paying attention.
     
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  12. shooter_mcgavin

    shooter_mcgavin Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Well if it's the opinion of one guy then you might have a point. Problem is in the major shows like Wrestlemania, RAW, and other PPV events Roman Reigns is getting booed by the fans either due to indifference or they just don't like him.

    I always found the "live shows" or "house show" crowd likes him arguments a little weak because the Wrestling industry hasn't been a house show driven business since the late 80's. Sure house shows still help the bottom line but I am pretty sure Wrestlemania's and Summerslam still matter a lot more than house shows these days.

    And while many are right that the hardcore fans will always be loyal or, at least, follow the product regardless if Roman Reigns is the focal point of the company or not.

    This is only true because there is no other competition and that the company is set up that they will still make money inspite of Reigns. Let's put it this way if WCW was still around and had a hotter product WWE would have gave up on Reigns as the top babyface a year into the experiment.

    Reigns sells merchandise sure he's #1 of all full time members of the roster. But he's #1 when general interest in the product isn't very high. WWE isn't exactly selling out arena shows left and right and ratings have been hovering decently at best. Let's put it this way is it preferable to be the #1 Merchandise Selling in today's era or become the #2, #3 or #4 merchandise selling during the Attitude Era? I would assume the latter is potentially bigger money maker.
     
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  13. ShinChan

    ShinChan Gone. For. Good.

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    WWE will never realise it. Rather Vince McMahon will never realise it that Roman Reigns isn't good enough.

    It's pretty clear now. I like Roman Reigns as well but that No. 1 spot is for someone as talented as Cena, Hogan etc. When there are bunch of better talents than Reigns, I can't and won't take Roman Reigns as the No. 1 guy.
     
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  14. stingray11214

    stingray11214 Cena is no Bruno & Cole is no Solie

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    You are asking why the brass in Stamford have yet to realize that Roman Reigns is just not good enough? Well, we can start by saying this as a reason: http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=337601

    That is right. WE are talking about him. He is getting a reaction. In the world of entertainment, NO publicity is BAD publicity. That is a double entendre. On the one hand, we can badmouth him all we want. Boo him out of the building. Give him the finger at the airport. Those are still REACTIONS. ANd, WWE is lapping at the bowl of it.

    But, what will happen if RR is in a match, and their are crickets. He wins a Main Event match on Raw...and everyone sits on their hands? What happens if his merch numbers drop like an anvil? Looking good in a suit can only get you so far. A chiseled physique straight from Central Casting will only get you so far if nobody cares.
     
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  15. shooter_mcgavin

    shooter_mcgavin Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Honestly, I don't believe that.
    If WWE only cared about a reaction and not about whether he gets a face reaction or not they wouldn't be drowning out the boo's, editing clips taking the focus away from the anti-Roman crowd, and commentators never acknowledge the boo's he gets.
     
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  16. HeenanGorilla

    HeenanGorilla Championship Contender

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    It amazes me how many "fans" wait for WWE to realize THEIR mistakes. These complainers who want things a certain way actually believe what they think matters. I have been on this forum for years. I don't always contribute, but I look in while at work almost every day. The same people have been complaining that whole time...and they still watch every week. They hate Raw, but watch every Monday. They hate PPVs but watch them every month. When will YOU realize that your opinion is not only irrelevant, but being contradicted by your own actions.

    WWE sees that kids like Roman & Cena and they watch them and spend money on them. WWE also sees that their critics hate Roman & Cena...and they watch them and spend money on them.

    Faces, heels, face turns, heel turns...nobody cares. These guys flip flop so much, the days of turns having an impact are long gone. The heels are the "smart crowds" who think they are owed something. They are heels because people that are trying to enjoy the show wish they would shut the hell up. "Give us what we want and we won't have to act this way." What are you, 5 years old?

    Wrestling audiences are part children, part parents bringing children, part adults who stayed with a hobby they enjoyed as a kid, part people who need to get a life. That last part are the unsilent minority. They are the ones who bitch and moan...so they think they are the majority. You're not. You're a small piece of the pie. That is why the things that bother you continue to exist...because you don't matter.

    For those who simply enjoy the show, or even don't enjoy the show but watch in hope that things will improve, I hope you get your entertainment and enjoy yourselves. But those who think they are in the driver's seat, you need a reality check. WrestleMania will sell out REGARDLESS of who is on the card. That is because the people who hate everything about wrestling are addicted to it and will shell out their dollars no matter what. You are the problem.
     
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  17. BestSportsEntertainer

    BestSportsEntertainer I Don't Need No User Title

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    Yeah Reigns is awful as a face. Everything about him screams heel. Look at his promos here lately.

    He brags about beating Undertaker and being the guy. That's not something a face does.

    His gimmick also isn't likable. "I'm the Big Dog" "I'm the guy!" It's just corny and screams heel.

    But he won't be turned because WWE would have to admit they're wrong, and they're never wrong. It's really that simple.
     
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  18. BestSportsEntertainer

    BestSportsEntertainer I Don't Need No User Title

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    Roman Reigns is not good enough to be the face of the company.

    He is not on John Cena's level. He has been destroyed on the mic by Cena the last couple of weeks.

    He's also not a huge draw. New fans aren't tuning in to see Roman or anyone for that matter. There aren't any.

    Reigns is a great wrestler and maybe the best full-timer in WWE today. However he's not on Cena's level and not good enough to be the guy.
     
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  19. Rainbow Yaz

    Rainbow Yaz Sing about me, I'm dying of thirst
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    Reigns is the top merch seller among full time stars. It's hard for them to take that information and say "Yeah, Roman Reigns is a bad guy." That is what a lot of this boils down to, to me anyway. That and the fact that Roman gets a reaction that is greater than 95% of the roster. In pro wrestling, the worst thing you can have is for people to just not react to you, and love or hate him, Roman draws a big reaction.

    You have a few guys like Miz who are outright heel, and guys like Matt and Jeff who are outright face, but most of the top guys today blur the lines a bit between heel/face. Look at the SummerSlam main event. Joe, Braun, and Brock were clear heels and Roman has been a quasi heel, but it worked because the characters had been built well.

    I truly believe WWE is doing exactly what they want to do with Roman right now. It hasn't been perfect, but until the fans stop responding to him we are gonna see a lot of the Big Dog and his busted zipper.
     
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  20. Psykohurricane55

    Psykohurricane55 Moderator
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    But like somebody else wrote on this thread, who then? Nobody on raw is on the same level as reigns right now. The fact of the matter is this, reigns does put butts into seat. He's always the most popular guy at live events. He's outsold pretty much everybody on the roster as far as merch sale is concern. He gets a huge reaction positive or negative everywhere he goes, who can say right now on the current roster that they elicit that kind of genuine reaction from the fans right now. Sure, he' not on the same level as cena, but to be fair, nobody his even close to that level yet but reigns is the closest to be on par with cena out of everybody on the roster. He need to work on his promos which he can do with this cena program. I think this week promo was better then the first week and he outshine cena this week in my opinion.

    Reigns will be the face of the company some day when cena will finally step down and sadly the haters will have to get over it and except it.
     
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  21. Navi

    Navi With the safety off!!

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    So are you saying that if Reigns wasn't available to wrestle for example due to a family emergency or injury fans wouldn't show up for these shows? Of course they would. When Reigns was out with his hernia problem for a few months, I still watched and didn't see empty arena's, I saw them full of fans.

    There is no one person on the roster that brings the fans in, it is the product as a whole. I have no idea where this notion came from that if Reigns left tomorrow the WWE would cease to exist. John Cena the biggest draw for the last decade, has been a part timer for the better part of the last two years and the fans still file in every week.

    Since the brand split the fans still buy tickets to see the SD Live shows and Reigns isn't on that roster. So this idea that Roman Reigns is the be all end all is head scratching. I do agree if fans stopped booing him he would probably fade back to the undercard because the boo's outweigh the cheers every week.

    Personally I don't care who sells this, that and the other. That is a WWE problem not mine, and just because someone sells more t-shirts than someone else, I'm supposed to like him or her more. Not happening no matter who it is.

    Yes he does get a good reaction at house shows but there are mostly kids and mom's at these shows. To be fair all the wrestlers get a pretty good reaction from these fans, most are just happy to attend a WWE show.

    I don't hate Roman Reigns, don't know him well enough to say I hate him, just like other's more. Guess that makes me a hater. Another label that some fans put on people if they don't agree with their opinion.
     
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  22. Psykohurricane55

    Psykohurricane55 Moderator
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    I'm not saying that if reigns isn't on the card because of injury people would stop to come because you right they won't but there would less people at the raw shows if he wasn't there just like the would less people going to smackdown show if aj styles wasn't there.

    The fact is that while some fans don't see the importance of having one major star for the company. It's still something that's hapenning in wwe. Reigns is the face of raw and aj styles is the face of smackdown because they are the 2 most over guy in the company. You might not care about who sells what but this is the reality of the business and it's been like this since they started selling merchandise in the 80's. They decided who was the most over based on merchandise sell, that the only way they can truly measure who's over and who's not by how much money they can make off a performer.

    The fact his reigns does sell merchs, even those that supposedly hate him and boo him out of the building does buy his t-shirt as have seen a lot of fans that was booeing him wear his t-shirt. Also the theory that live event is mostly kids and womens is just that, I theory. Yes there are more kids and family but the male emo his still well represented at the shows and if you ever been the a raw live event, reigns reaction is way louder then every other superstar on the card. He his the john cena of this generation right now. You might not buy in this theory that one guy help selling tickets to shows, but I do because that how I was raise watching wrestling. That's how I saw wrestling as a kid during the hogan/warrior era. It was like this during the attitude era with rock & austin, and it like this now and while you don't see it or don't buy into it, it doesn't change the fact that the wwe still work like this and fans do still go to wwe to see the top stars and reigns is the number 1 reason that a lot of fans goes to see the show.
     
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  23. Navi

    Navi With the safety off!!

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    But they would still show up, tickets for these shows are sold months in advance. I bought my Survivor Series tickets last year in August and the show wasn't until November. Anything could have happened in the meantime, wrestler's could have been fired, injured, whatever, it wouldn't have stopped me from going to the show. Sure it might be a little disappointing if certain wrestlers weren't there, but I still would have enjoyed myself.

    I really think that you are giving Roman Reigns way too much credit and not giving the rest of the roster enough. Reigns has only been around for the last 5 years, did the WWE not exist before that, and did they not do well? If he left tomorrow they would continue on with someone new.

    I think we saw what happens when you put the weight of the company on one person's shoulders like they have with John Cena for the past decade. A couple of years ago when it seemed like we had one injury after another they had to basically rewrite some of their biggest PPV's.

    In the Attitude Era you had Stone Cold, The Rock, Foley, HBK, HHH, Taker, Edge, Benoit, Eddie Guerrero, Angle, Kane, Hardy's just to name a few. Anyone on that roster could have headlined a show, and if one or two went down with injury there was more than enough to fill the slot they vacated. Nowadays if Cena, Rollins, Reigns, Styles or Owens goes down, they will struggle. That's what happens when they put an extensive push on someone and ignore the rest.
     
    #23
  24. Big Nick Dudley

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    Reigns makes them money. That's what is most important. Get over it.

    When I read these posts about how awful Reigns is, I find myself searching for an alternative. Who? Who should be in that spot? No full-time guy on their roster could do any better. He isn't the best talker, but neither are guys like Rollins, Ambrose, Styles, etc. Guys who appeal to smarks do not always appeal to general fans. I think they're going with the best option they have.
     
    #24
  25. George Steele's Barber

    George Steele's Barber Advertise Here $9.95/month

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    I would like to see him become a full heel myself. But he hasn't been that much of a face lately as it is. His character is very self centered and kind of stupid. He brags about beating up a 50 year old, how the ring is his, and calls himself 'the guy'. At the same time he can't win the title and has taken many pins from guys who most would consider "lesser".

    I know it is not the topic of the thread but many here seem to think Roman is the top guy. Is he? He's on a show with Brock, Cena, and others who get bigger reactions in Braun, Joe, the Hardys, and maybe Ambrose/Rollins. Reigns isn't getting movie roles. I haven't seen him on many commercials or doing much promo work. He was in a charity spot but that's about all I remember. They used Rollins of all people for that arson video game commercial.

    I guess what I'm saying is that we shouldn't compare Reigns as a top guy the way we have thought of Hogan, Cena, and Austin. That may have been the goal at one point but things seem different now. Reigns is very much a part of the machine and an important part but he really isn't 'The Guy'. He is mostly a strong worker, where WWE is taking advantage of the fan's perception of him to create heat.
     
    #25

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