American Region, WWZT Finals: (1) Trish Stratus vs (3) Mickie James

[Bernkastel]

This is a sixth round/Women's WZT finals match in the American region. It is a standard match. It will be held at Madison Square Garden in New York City.

#1 Trish Stratus


Defeated Victoria: 12 to 8
Stamina Margin: -3

VS.

#3 Mickie James


Defeated Gail Kim: 12 to 5
Stamina Margin: +3 ​

There will be 1 day of discussion before the poll opens. It will remain open for 3 days. Spam rules will apply. In case of a tie the winner will be decided based upon how many people have made a case for them in the discussion thread. One per each poster.

Who wins the match up?

 

[Lowdown]

No one said these rounds were gonna get easier to decide. Again, I don't know the stats between the two. However, I feel that while Trish might be more well known, Mickie has accomplished more, even outside WWE. I won't negate Trish's accolades, but again they're all WWE accolades. I look to Mickie and she competed for multiple promotions and won multiple championships, and as far as I know still competing. I vote Mickie based on this, but it's a close one.

 

[Skairipa Matrix]

Just like when they fought at Wrestlemania, Mickie wins this. Mickie has more title wins and they are probably about equal in wins against big opponents.

Anybody got an idea what their record is against each other?

 

[Bernkastel]

Just like when they fought at Wrestlemania, Mickie wins this. Mickie has more title wins and they are probably about equal in wins against big opponents.

Anybody got an idea what their record is against each other?

According to Cagematch, their statistics against each other are Trish - 10 wins/Mickie - 14 wins. Not what I expected. Mickie defeated Trish for the women's title at Mania, while Trish got the win back when she defeated Mickie in her televised retirement match.

I'm on the fence about this match. I will make a more detailed post later.

 

[Skairipa Matrix]

I didn't even know they faced each other 24 times. Wow.

But that's making me even more sure I gotta give my vote to Hardcore Country.

 

[Mustang Sally]

Ironic that the final comes down to a match between two gals who put on such a memorable program together. Girl crushes are always fun to watch.

Still, I'm going to vote for Mickie James because if these two met in the ring in a contest in which they had to wrestle.....not perform.....Mickie would win with ease.

Can you see it? Trish would telegraph that "backbend that causes a charging opponent to rush right by her" and Mickie would pound Trish's exposed stomach until she couldn't breathe.

Trish is a limber, lovely woman.....but Mickie is a wrestler. Okay, Trish will win this poll,, but her opponent is getting at least one vote.

 

[Hollywood Naitch]

I'm still disappointed Victoria didn't get through to the final!

But, Mickie James vs Trish Stratus is a great final, and well deserved as they are two of the very best of their generation. They've had memorable feuds and matches with each other, even going one-on-one on the grandest stage of them all, Wrestlemania. I didn't realise they'd had 24 televised matches, and was even more surprised that Mickie has the better record. I'd always have guessed Trish would have been booked to win more often.

Both girls have a big resume of success, beating top talent and holding multiple titles...but I'm leaning towards Mickie in this one. As good as Trish became, I just think Mickie is that little bit better as a performer. I've always enjoyed both of these divas, but I think Mickie is more reliable in the ring to provide a good match.

Trish was the face of the WWE Women's Division, while Mickie has had alot of success wherever she's been, and she is still performing at a high standard, and could quite easily come back to WWE and win the Divas title again, she's that good. Plus, Mickie had the easier semi-final match here, beating Gail Kim fairly easily while Victoria pushed Trish to the limit...giving Hardcore Country more of an advantage.

I'm voting Mickie. She deserves it.

 

[nightmare]

This one is a big one.


Without having the time to go into a long post here is what seals it for me:

Mickie James has a winning record against her opponent here. One of which is a big match for the title on the biggest PPV of the year.


Honestly she should have not beaten Gail last round due to Mickie having lost to Gail more often than not, but alas. I love Trish & would have voted her over many a foe, but Mickie has this one by the numbers & she also has the advantage of being atop the mountain in two popular promotions. We may give TNA shit for many things, but if there is one thing they do better than most- it is the KO Division.


Trish likely would have done the same in TNA if she went there, but we cant give her points for 'would have'. Facts are that Mickie did have that opportunity to add to her legacy & she also has a winning record against Trish. For me, that is enough to give her the edge here.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

Just to clear any confusion - Mickie and Trish have met six times in televised one on one competition [ http://www.cagematch.net/?id=112&view=search&sParticipant1=Trish+Stratus&sParticipant2=Mickie+James&sParticipant3=&sParticipant4=&sEventName=&sEventType=TV-Show%7CPay+Per+View&sDateFromDay=01&sDateFromMonth=01&sDateFromYear=2000&sDateTillDay=31&sDateTillMonth=12&sDateTillYear=2015&sPromotion=1&sLocation=&sArena=&sRegion=&sMatchType=&sConstellation=Singles&sWorkerRelationship=Opponents&sFulltextSearch= ]:

• Trish beats Mickie at New Year's Revolution - 8th January '06 (Title match):
  Spoiler

  [DM]xpfj50[/DM]​
• Mickie beats Trish for the belt at WM22 - 2nd April '06:
  Spoiler

  [DM]x18vsus[/DM]​
• Trish wins by DQ at Backlash '06 when Mickie refuses to release choke - 30th April '06 (Title match):
  Spoiler

  [DM]x3wv4h[/DM]​
• Mickie beats Trish on RAW - 26th June '06 (Title match):
  Spoiler

  [YOUTUBE]0EXCdXUN_fk[/YOUTUBE]​
• RAW no contest as Edge and Lita interrupt - 7th August '06: http://www.wrestleview.com/results/raw/raw2006/1155008208.shtml
• Trish beats Mickie in final RAW match (to build for 'final' match against Lita that weekend):
  Spoiler

  [YOUTUBE]RaKFyMRO62I[/YOUTUBE]​

As such the official record is Trish: 3, Mickie: 2, NC: 1... however, two of Trish's wins do deserve notes - the DQ win at Backlash is hardly conclusive (and did lead to Mickie retaining the title) and the final RAW match wasn't about Trish / Mickie; it was all about Trish / Lita. Mickie removed Trish's belt on the biggest stage and held onto it via fair means and foul.

Many Trish supporters might wish to laud her WWe accomplishments but here is an interesting statistic Trish Stratus had a 60.7% win rate in televised 1-on-1 matches in the WWe... Mickie James beats that with 62.5% (and a career televised record of 61.7%).

Also interestingly, despite her record 7 titles, only in 3 cases did Stratusfaction manage to do it 1-on-1, against 2 different opponents - Lita twice and Molly Holly. 5 of Mickie's 6 WWe title wins were 1-on-1 (and all 3 of her TNA KnockOut reigns)... and every single one has been against a different opponent - (in TNA) Velvet Sky, Winter, Madison Rayne, (in WWe), Michelle McCool, Maryse, Beth Phoenix, Lita and of course Trish.

When it mattered in the WWe, Mickie came out on top - this matters, she'll come out on top here... even the tournament kayfabe with Trish being at the physical disadvantage plays into James' advantage as she has shown before just how quick she can exploit Stratus weakness.

Vote Mickie James


[This is an asides about Mickie vs Gail last round to the most honorable Nightmare, feel free to skip...]

Spoiler

Honestly she should have not beaten Gail last round due to Mickie having lost to Gail more often than not, but alas. I love Trish & would have voted her over many a foe, but Mickie has this one by the numbers & she also has the advantage of being atop the mountain in two popular promotions. We may give TNA shit for many things, but if there is one thing they do better than most- it is the KO Division.

I'd have been happy no matter who went through, Gail and Mickie were my favorites in the tournament but I just had to address the above statement. Gail does have a televised advantage 4:3 but one of her 4 is via DQ. Both girls have 2 clean championship defense wins over the other and neither has ever managed to wrangle a title from the other. They really couldn't be closer head to head.

1 18.07.2013 Total Nonstop Action Wrestling TNA Women's Knockout Title: Mickie James (c) defeats Gail Kim (7:05)
IMPACT Wrestling #472 @ Broadbent Arena in Louisville, Kentucky, USA
TV-Show
2 29.11.2012 Total Nonstop Action Wrestling Mickie James defeats Gail Kim (4:59)
IMPACT Wrestling #438 @ Universal Studios in Orlando, Florida, USA
TV-Show
3 29.02.2012 Total Nonstop Action Wrestling Gail Kim defeats Mickie James (6:00)
IMPACT Wrestling #401 @ Universal Studios in Orlando, Florida, USA
TV-Show
4 08.01.2012 Total Nonstop Action Wrestling TNA Women's Knockout Title: Gail Kim (c) defeats Mickie James by DQ (6:27)
TNA Genesis 2012 @ Universal Studios in Orlando, Florida, USA
Pay Per View
5 13.12.2011 Total Nonstop Action Wrestling TNA Women's Knockout Title: Gail Kim (c) defeats Mickie James (14:06)
IMPACT Wrestling #390 @ Universal Studios in Orlando, Florida, USA
TV-Show
6 11.12.2011 Total Nonstop Action Wrestling TNA Women's Knockout Title: Gail Kim (c) defeats Mickie James (7:45)
TNA Final Resolution 2011 @ Universal Studios in Orlando, Florida, USA
Pay Per View
7 17.08.2009 World Wrestling Entertainment WWE Divas Title: Mickie James (c) defeats Gail Kim (3:25)
WWE Monday Night RAW #847 @ Scottrade Center in St. Louis, Missouri, USA
TV-Show

 

[Papa Pillman]

Let me make three separate clear and convincing arguments on Mickie's behalf:

First is the aforementioned head-to-head record which favors Mickie, despite the perception that Trish was the bigger star. And included among those victories is a Championship victory at WrestleMania, which would probably be the closest stage to approximate the magnitude of match that the final of a tournament like this would represent.

Second is the fact that the entirety of Trish's career took place in the WWE, and she has no accomplishments outside of the company, and it is not arguable that the WWE is a promotion that has consistently treated women's wrestling as more of a novelty act than a legitimate wrestling division. While Mickie has dominated women's wrestling across the entirety of North America for the past dozen years, along with her 5 WWE women's titles, one Diva's title, and 3 TNA KO titles, she has also won the top women's singles title for 8 separate independent promotions. Mickie should be rewarded for proving herself as the top women's talent in every organization for which she has ever competed, including TNA and the WWE.

And third is to tie in the stipulation of the evening. This is each woman's second match of the night, and it also bears repeating that Trish had the harder fought first match. In Trish's career she has only competed twice on the same day on a single occasion, in September of '09 at a double Raw in Toronto, both of those matches were mixed tags, and the first one lasted only 90 seconds. Mickie, however, because of her time in TNA which included many double Impact and One Night Only tapings, has competed twice in the same day on 7 different occasions and more than half of those matches were singles matches. The fact that Mickie is fresher and far more battle tested at pulling double-duty gives her a major advantage in this match that when combined with all of the other arguments that are at best a wash for Trish, should be the factor that locks up the victory for Mickie.

9-time champion in major national promotions, 9-time champion across eight other promotions, and the first and only woman to win the WWE Diva's, and Women's title, as well as the Knockout's title, sounds like the resume of a Woman who can fairly be named as the Greatest Female Wrestler Ever.

 

[nightmare]

[This is an asides about Mickie vs Gail last round to the most honorable Nightmare, feel free to skip...]

Spoiler

I'd have been happy no matter who went through, Gail and Mickie were my favorites in the tournament but I just had to address the above statement. Gail does have a televised advantage 4:3 but one of her 4 is via DQ. Both girls have 2 clean championship defense wins over the other and neither has ever managed to wrangle a title from the other. They really couldn't be closer head to head.

1 18.07.2013 Total Nonstop Action Wrestling TNA Women's Knockout Title: Mickie James (c) defeats Gail Kim (7:05)
IMPACT Wrestling #472 @ Broadbent Arena in Louisville, Kentucky, USA
TV-Show
2 29.11.2012 Total Nonstop Action Wrestling Mickie James defeats Gail Kim (4:59)
IMPACT Wrestling #438 @ Universal Studios in Orlando, Florida, USA
TV-Show
3 29.02.2012 Total Nonstop Action Wrestling Gail Kim defeats Mickie James (6:00)
IMPACT Wrestling #401 @ Universal Studios in Orlando, Florida, USA
TV-Show
4 08.01.2012 Total Nonstop Action Wrestling TNA Women's Knockout Title: Gail Kim (c) defeats Mickie James by DQ (6:27)
TNA Genesis 2012 @ Universal Studios in Orlando, Florida, USA
Pay Per View
5 13.12.2011 Total Nonstop Action Wrestling TNA Women's Knockout Title: Gail Kim (c) defeats Mickie James (14:06)
IMPACT Wrestling #390 @ Universal Studios in Orlando, Florida, USA
TV-Show
6 11.12.2011 Total Nonstop Action Wrestling TNA Women's Knockout Title: Gail Kim (c) defeats Mickie James (7:45)
TNA Final Resolution 2011 @ Universal Studios in Orlando, Florida, USA
Pay Per View
7 17.08.2009 World Wrestling Entertainment WWE Divas Title: Mickie James (c) defeats Gail Kim (3:25)
WWE Monday Night RAW #847 @ Scottrade Center in St. Louis, Missouri, USA
TV-Show

I get the televised match stats argument because frankly they are the ones that matter most & what many more people see, but I try to take into account total records if applicable\available. Only reason I really started doing that a while back is because of when I started factoring in title changes at un-televised events -I figured it's only fair to include any victories whether or not cameras are rolling. House shows do hold less weight with me in the W\L category than tv or ppv shows do though, but wins are wins in the end.

 

[Mustang Sally]

As I've been kvetching during this whole tournament, how do you figure "who would win?" matches as pertains to a pre-scripted form of entertainment? Some say time spent as champion is the most important factor....in which case Moolah wins after having served as world titleholder for 114 years.

Some think the woman with the most influence and popularity wins all her individual matches, in which case Trish Stratus takes it all, which is what I believed most of you were going to say until I saw the voting results to this point.

I still favor the "who do you think would win a shoot match?" formula in which case the whole shebang might have come down to Mickie James, Victoria and Gail Kim........and unless I wanted Triple Naitch to hate me, I'd pick Victoria. Fortunately for me, she isn't in the final.

In this tournament, the choice comes down to the most popular wrestler vs. the best wrestler......and I pick the latter.

Mickie James.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

I get the televised match stats argument because frankly they are the ones that matter most & what many more people see, but I try to take into account total records if applicable\available. Only reason I really started doing that a while back is because of when I started factoring in title changes at un-televised events -I figured it's only fair to include any victories whether or not cameras are rolling. House shows do hold less weight with me in the W\L category than tv or ppv shows do though, but wins are wins in the end.

Seeing as no-one appears to be willing to put forward a case for Trish, I may as well have a debate with you on this.

While there has been title changes at house shows in the modern age (one of Mickie's WWe titles was won at one in France), neither the Knockouts nor the WHC have ever changed hands in this way. More pertinently to me in the case of these matches though is the lack of detail usually available so asides from the actual result we are unsure if it was via pinfall, submission, DQ, count-out, if there was outside interference, a referee bump.

In this example, the major asterisk was Gail being a heel often ably assisted by BFF Madison Rayne. Therefore, as 10 of Gail's 11:7 total 1-on-1 record against Mickie come in this 4 month run (3 TV & 7 house), I'd struggle to use this as evidence of her being better overall. In fact, the information could theoretically be used against Gail as there are five distinct periods of Gail / Mickie matches and Mickie has come out ahead in four of the five.

 

[Bernkastel]

Wow, I didn't realize that Mickie James had broken away like she did. The arguments for her were sound. In the end I still went for Trish, but the Mickie camp put up some fantastic arguments. You guys should feel proud.

Congrats to the new champion.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

Thanks for a fantastic competition Ech, it was fun debating a regularly under appreciated aspect of our favorite waste of time.