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  #11  
Old 02-21-2018, 11:57 PM
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Radical Radical is offline
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Originally Posted by wrestlingmasters55 View Post

Today, i feel like most adult fans, especially men's, are too focus in wanting to know what's going on backstage and how this whole thing works that we don't just sit back and enjoy the product for what it is. When i go to live events, i always try to watch the reactions of kids that are sitting near me just to see how they react to certain characters mostly because their reaction are the most genuine reaction of any wrestling fans on the planet. They just want to have fun and believe in those characters and we as adult fans should learn a thing or two from them. Stop obsessing over every little details that going on backstage and just go and enjoy the product for what it is.

Good points.

WWE Live Events don't really come around my area much at all, but I did end up going to an indy wrestling event in my town a few weeks back. Even the wrestlers got on the mic and said it was a good turn out. There were adults of all ages and many kids as well.

I also found it very interesting to watch the kids reactions the most. But, I go and try to have fun with the whole thing. One heel wrestler was a big, huge fat guy (like over 300 lbs), me and my friend didn't think the ring could hold him and maybe that's why the ring was sagging a little bit! Anyway, he kept yelling "O'Doyle Rules!", especially after he hit his opponent with a move. This was probably one of the best reactions from the crowd as fans got into it and yelled back at him and got behind the younger, quicker, babyface wrestler. The big fat guy still won the match but it did remind me about what the point of pro wrestling is ...

It's a circus side show carnival mixed with a pre-determined modern version of the Gladiators in the Coliseum and action-movie fight scene elements. People know it's made-up but if the characters are interesting and the action is good, then people can enjoy it.

It's just that with WWE there is SO MUCH content that they have to be such at the top of their game for every week, every show, every PPV to be compelling. Sometimes they hit and sometimes they miss.

With that said, if they miss and they miss too often, fans (or potential fans) have the right to not watch or become disinterested, not buy-in and all that.

So I don't bother too much with arm-chair booking, and very little with complaining about who is getting pushed and who isn't. Everyone has their own picks anyway, that's natural, but what I do is try to enjoy it for what it is, but if I'm just not getting into it because of the character or storylines for some reason I'll just laugh it off or turn it off.

I mostly just watch highlights anyway, so I usually just catch the good stuff (and any of the not-so-good stuff I only see shortly and don't spend much time or energy on it).
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  #12  
Old 02-22-2018, 04:04 AM
Mr. Quinn Gammon Mr. Quinn Gammon is offline
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I'm going to play devil's advocate for a moment here.

I completely understand the aversion to armchair booking. It's true that the internet damages the enjoyment of wrestling sometimes. Spoilers and rumors have their place and can be useful but it's nice to be surprised every once in awhile.

Like HeenanGorilla said, the Hardys return at 'Mania was a big surprise to many, but I didn't avoid the dirt sheets like I should have and was aware that there was a big chance they were going to show. It's become very difficult for any wrestling promotion to legitimately surprise anyone anymore and I think it makes us a bit jaded as fans. We get upset that everything can be seen coming from a mile away, but we oftentimes come to sites like this one looking for those details in the first place.

One of the last real surprises I can remember falling for was Brock's return on RAW in 2012. I'd heard only vague rumors about him possibly coming back and nothing about when he might show or how, so when he suddenly came out in the middle of Cena's promo and laid him out, I popped.

So, while I can understand the sentiment that armchair booking and arguing about pushes and who should be on top can take a lot of enjoyment out of being a wrestling fan, I'd argue that it can make it a lot more fun too.

I enjoy having intense debates with people about what makes wrestling so great and why someone thinks Roman Reigns is Jesus Christ in SWAT gear and I love being able to tell them why I think fans would throw buckets of gasoline at him if he spontaneously combusts in the ring.

Would kayfabe being alive have prevented us from ending up here? I would say not. I think this was all inevitable. 20 years ago, people just like us were doing this exact same thing, except they were meeting in coffee shops to swap bootleg indie promotion tapes. The one thing I will say about kayfabe is that it's really silly and an unnecessary nut-shot to my suspension of disbelief when two guys beat the ever loving bejesus out of each other in a blood feud and then post a picture of themselves hanging out at a strip club together on Instagram an hour later.

Like, c'mon fellas. At least try to maintain what tiny shred of the magic is left.
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  #13  
Old 02-22-2018, 04:33 AM
d_henderson1810 d_henderson1810 is offline
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Originally Posted by HeenanGorilla View Post
I'm almost 40 and still keep my finger on the pulse of wrestling, which I last loved when I was 13. I was interested again during the Monday Night Wars, but in no way loved it like I did as a kid. I start my post with this because I don't want to sound like someone who looks down on it. I will always have a special place in my heart for pro wrestling because of the joy it brought me from age 7-13.

That being said, I have to ask how anyone over the age of 12, maybe, can still believe in kayfabe. I'm not talking suspension of disbelief or any of that. I don't even mean as a wrestling fan. I mean as a person with common sense, how can one have a shred of belief in kayfabe?

Let me stop here and remind you, I am not pissing on wrestling or its fans. I just don't understand how you can get to a certain age--still a fan or not--and believe in kayfabe.

The internet has had a negative effect on wrestling, in my opinion. It is full of spoilers and whiners and bad predictions. In my opinion, the product is still better when I stay off wrestling sites. The Hardys return at Mania was a surprise for me because I avoided these sites for months before--for that reason. However, to say that the internet is what pulled the curtain back is laughable. Are you suggesting adults--hell teenagers--in the pre-internet world were unable to see that this wasn't on the level?

I never bought the "Austin/McMahon angle was huge because everyone wanted to beat up their boss". What a crock! Who the hell, over the age of 12, turned on the TV and thought this guy was getting away with beating up his boss? It was entertaining because of the great job done by Austin and McMahon. It had nothing to do with kayfabe.

Even in more general ways, who could think these bad guys and good guys who hated each other were kind enough to wait until they were in a ring and the bell rung before trying to kill each other? "So, this guy wants to kill this guy because he said something about his wife and kids? Ok, this oughta be a fierce battle! ...ding ding ding... oh look a tie up and a light toss into the ropes" I mean, come on! Jack Hammer and others like him get mad when people try to "act cool" or like they are above the product--and some do. But, what he and those like him can't grasp is that some people just see it for what it is.

Kayfabe is for children. Anyone any older who misses kayfabe simply misses the blissful ignorance of that time in their lives. If you are a teenager or older and still think of this as anything but wrestling-based theater, you are..to be kind...silly.

There is nothing wrong with enjoying wrestling as an adult! But to go back and forth on whether or not the Undertaker character is cheesy--you sound like fools. This is a character who is supposed to be DEAD. Tell me how anyone can take that as anything but a source of entertaining storylines.

I will always admit to, gladly, my fandom as a kid and my much-less-but-still-alive interest now. But the more I read the posts of some of the people on this forum, I am convinced that people like Jack Hammer are more like kids who know Santa is fake, but still mail a list of wishes to the North Pole because they're not "too cool" to stop doing so. Jack Hammer seems like an adult who would lose a tooth and then pick up his pillow the next morning and say "See? There's no dollar there." while kind of hoping there was.
I am not saying that I believe in kayfabe, and I get what you are saying about adults would figure out for themselves that it wasn't real.

I guess I wish that people didn't take the product so seriously all the time. I mean, in the end, wrestling is just a bit of fun. Who cares ultimately who wins or loses, as long as a good story is told and good matches are had.

In fact, I like knowing about things behind the curtain. I am a bit of a wrestling historian, and like to find out what has happened to past wrestlers etc.

You say about "suspension of belief". But why not have it for wrestling. I remember a time where my personal life was going really bad, because of family illness, school bullying and other things. I hung out for Monday night to watch RAW and forget "my world" for a couple of hours. That's how to approach it, as escapism, not analysing why your fave isn't champion, and being angry about it.

If there was less "knowledge" of the product by the wrestling fans in general, I feel that there would be less anger towards the product as well, and I consider that a good thing. As my mum said "If it stops being fun, walk away and do something else".
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  #14  
Old 02-22-2018, 08:23 AM
HORRORHOLIC HORRORHOLIC is offline
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Originally Posted by wrestlingmasters55 View Post
i get you're point but just go back and watch some old NWA or WWE shows from the 80's and early 90's, while everybody knew tihs was fake, they went to the show and thought this was real because of the presentation of the product. They knew that The koloff weren't real russians or the Jim Cornette wasn't a mommy's boy or if you want some WWE example, Ted dibiase wasn't really this rich asshole but they wanted to believe theses guy were like that in real life and the reactions to everything they did was genuine because they got caught up in the characters and the show. That's what Keyfabe is and back then, outside of the wrestling observer newsletter, you really didn'T have a lot of publication that was exposing wrestling like you have today because all the apter magazine treated wrestling as a real sports.

Today, i feel like most adult fans, especially men's, are too focus in wanting to know what's going on backstage and how this whole thing works that we don't just sit back and enjoy the product for what it is. When i go to live events, i always try to watch the reactions of kids that are sitting near me just to see how they react to certain characters mostly because their reaction are the most genuine reaction of any wrestling fans on the planet. They just want to have fun and believe in those characters and we as adult fans should learn a thing or two from to hem. Stop obsessing over every little details that going on backstage and just go and enjoy the product for what it is.
Oh I totally agree. Even though I always knew it wasn't real I was usually always able to suspend disbelief. That not possible these days. I remember watching the segment where Hornswagle spray painted a hole in the wall and ran through, Carlito tried and smashed into the wall. To me that was possibly the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen in wrestling. How can anyone watch that type of thing and suspend disbelief at all ?
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  #15  
Old 02-22-2018, 10:24 AM
HeenanGorilla HeenanGorilla is offline
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That is right and, like I said, I am NOT talking about suspension of disbelief. That is completely different from kayfabe. Suspension of disbelief is accepting that Iron Sheik and Hacksaw Jim Duggan are trying to kill one another, when obviously they are not. Kayfabe is hiding the fact that they drive together from arena to arena. I agree that suspension of disbelief is crucial to enjoy ALL kinds of fiction. I don't know why people are so hell bent on using this term in regards to wrestling only. I don't watch Game of Thrones, but it is obviously very popular. I don't THINK most viewers believe in dragons. This is what I mean.

I also agree that hearing behind the scenes stories are fun. But, not in a Total Divas-type way where it is scripted "reality". I saw one this season where Natalya had a problem with Tyson Kidd training Lana. That is the kind of lame shit that is created for Total Divas--it isn't a look at an actual bit of drama within the locker room.

I go to WrestleZone every couple of days or so to see if there is an article or interview about the guys I grew up watching. I don't care if Bray is dating Jojo or if Miz tweeted insults at another superstar. I don't care about the behind the scenes stuff of the current product. THAT is what ruins watching now. What I did enjoy was Bret Hart's biography. He was retired and it was full of details of what happened back when I loved it. If he was a current wrestler and was telling tales of the current locker room, I wouldn't have cared. So, my approach to wrestling--which I have admitted to watching a hell of a lot less than before--is to read "behind the curtain" details of the past and avoid spoilers of the present. I can only tell you how much better it makes watching nowadays. I can't make you try it. But, not knowing who is going into the Hall of Fame until WWE announces it, again, the Hardys coming back, Rousey showing up (in theory, since I fell asleep before the womens Rumble)--that is the stuff that is cool to find out on the fly. It SEEMS that the people who complain the most are the people who read spoilers and long-term plans and get upset BEFORE anything actually happens. It is a terrible way to watch wrestling and, although I know most of you will continue to do it that way, I hope some of you will consider a change in viewing.

I think most of you read the book before seeing the movie and complain about the differences. And that is a shame. I can tell a LOT of you like to hate wrestling. You like having a group of miserable people to bitch with online...have fun. But for those who WANT TO ENJOY IT but don't anymore, I suggest avoiding spoilers and the whiners. React to what you see, not what you might see down the line.
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