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  #11  
Old 02-17-2018, 09:23 AM
Kodo Sawaki Kodo Sawaki is offline
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I dont mind characters we have as much as I do showing one and that character progression. For example if you watch females aside of few of them like Alexa or Charlotte and Asuka every other female doesnt show any character. As AJ Lee said in that infamous "pipebomb" of hers meant to feud with cast of Total Divas they are "a bunch of cheap, expendable, interchangeable, useless women". Would anyone miss Naomi or even Natalya? How about even somebody "bigger" like other 3 Horsewomen? Would anyone miss Becky or even Bayley in this state? Or even Sasha who aside of saying how she is "The Boss" doesnt show any of that persona? Sure they all have some fans but in grand order of things none of them would really be missed because none of them in current state brings almost nothing to the table. Heck I could go even further and say how they play the same character who you could change heel/face tomorrow and would felt no difference character wise. And that is the difference between that Elias/Strowman thing and rest. They showed character there and played it. And I feel like that part is gone. As others have said they already have plenty characters there. But they dont show or play them as they should so we could see them and connect with them. I couldnt stand Enzo but at least he showed his character and played it every single week. Which is something 90% of roster doesnt do wheather its creative or their fault.
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  #12  
Old 02-17-2018, 09:25 AM
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Agreed, Vince has to take the final hit on any decision made and his instincts are terrible at the best of times, even if he has deferred that decision to Trips. Vince has arguably cost the company talent with those decisions in the past, just as Trips behaviour has but ultimately it is Vince who allows it.

When you hear stories of John Morrison being "depushed" as Vince didn't like him not standing up to Batista for stealing his girl, yet firing Matt Hardy for doing just that...and then using both as an angle (that icky moment where they implied Melina had been raped) then you know Vince probably has trouble discerning character from person to begin with.

Remember Vince is a guy who allegedly blackballed Randy for boning his daughter, but then wanted to run an incest angle where he was the father of her first born... no writer is going to come up with worse than that... ever.
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  #13  
Old 02-17-2018, 02:15 PM
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They need less people on their roster, not more. I'd combine the two brands again and make a ton of dead weight cuts and focus on building up 20-30 guys instead of trying to find something for your middling talent.
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  #14  
Old 02-17-2018, 02:31 PM
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Step 1 - steal underpants
Step 2 - ????
Step 3 - make money

Yeah, more characters might be great. I like the idea that being a pro wrestling is something someone with some other career or some mental instability might do and do well. But I also know that the OP is one of the bigger Woken Matt complainers on this forum.

I also know that none of it matters if creative and the talent can't make the characters entertaining.
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  #15  
Old 02-17-2018, 04:56 PM
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No because WWE doesn't know how to use them.

See Bray Wyatt and Matt Hardy. Wyatt is a cult leader with no followers and the Broken stuff has been reduced to nothing more than that ridiculous laugh.

So no we don't need more characters but rather a better creative team.
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  #16  
Old 02-17-2018, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrestlingmasters55 View Post
Yeah, i get your point, but at the same time, i feel like it's not fair to blame Vince for the bad creative, this as been a big problem since the attitude era in my opinion where Vince thought that it was better to have a creative team that knew nothing about wrestling instead of doing this by himself with a couple of guys.
Vince has the final say on everything creative does. It's fair to blame him.

Quote:
We can praise HHH all we want right now, but if put in the same Situation Vince is right now, he wouldn't do better.
Why do you say that? How do we know how qualified HHH is or is not?

Quote:
The thing is, back in the old WWF, Vince would do pretty much do the same thing, he would give them their characters and just let them go out and create their persona and while i don't recommend that for everybody on the roster today, a lot of the top guy would be comfortable enough to get some leeway in the promo department.
Wrestlers in the old days had much more creative freedom. Now Vince micromanages everything, which is hurting wrestlers getting over.

Quote:
Also it's normal to want and blame creative for everything, but if the performers are not able to get themselves over with the crap they are given, that's on them in the end. Look at Braun Strowman, the guy is been given stupid stuff to do each and every week, yet he's able to get that stuff over and show some personality in the process. Look at Finn Balor, the guy as been get opportunity after opportunity to show is personality and yet, all we know about him is that he's irish and he's a good wrestler. So who's at fault here, Creative for giving him a direction to go to or Finn for not taking this same material and making it his own and finding his voice with the crap they gave him?
Braun Strowman has received some of the best booking in years. You think he's been given "stupid stuff" and "crap"?

WWE reduced Finn Balor's character to an Irish guy who's a good wrestler. He had the Demon, but WWE completely squandered it the night it debuted.

As I said in another post, Bray Wyatt is a cult leader with no following and has never won anything significant. How is he supposed to still be over?

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Like Steve austin and other guys said before, this generation of wrestlers all wait for management to give them a push when it's on them the best of what they are given, if you can prove to Vince that you deserve to get a push and you get over with your personality, you will be successful, if you just take what creative give you and just act it out like you really don't care about it, you're going to get stuck and fans will stop to care about it.
Vince chooses who gets pushed and who doesn't.

You don't remember Royal Rumble 2014? The entire arena was chanting for and wanted Daniel Bryan, but Vince wanted Batista.

The next year? Same situation, except this time it's Reigns. Vince ultimately won out.
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  #17  
Old 02-17-2018, 06:09 PM
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The issue is more so lack of personality and genuine connection w/ the crowd. As some of you have already reference, creative is strapping talent. Just earlier I was chatting w/ a Twitter follower about how inorganic the lines the writers and perhaps that's due to the writers having a Hollywood background over a wrestling one. Look at the Mixed Match Challenge and how entertaining it's been b/c the talent are being themselves.
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  #18  
Old 02-17-2018, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack-Hammer View Post
While it may technically be the job of WWE's creative team to actually come up with ideas to please the audience, their actual job is to please Vince McMahon. Anything and everything we see on WWE television week in and week out, the good and the bad, we only see because Vince likes it. I'll be the first to say that neither he or the creative team doesn't gets nearly the credit they should when good quality is put out but people sure do line up to kick him in the nuts when they see something they don't like. In some instance, I think some of it is taking something that's not really an issue or that bad and trying to exaggerate it. I also think a good deal of that is just plain ol' trolling because crapping all over WWE is the "cool" thing to do in wrestling among smarks from all walks of life.
And that's it in a nutshell. Creative could come up with the best storyline ever, but if Vince doesn't like it, it will go nowhere. I'm the first to give him credit for taking this company from where it was to where it is, however, I'm also the first to critique it when it doesn't deliver. Please keep in mind I'm only speaking as a fan here, not someone with any sort of intimate knowledge of the wrestling business. What I want, the only thing I have ever wanted is to be entertained, right now that is not happening, for me anyway.
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  #19  
Old 02-17-2018, 06:43 PM
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They need to collaborate more with their talent and let their personalities come out more or figure what way to feature them. They need more angles/storylines or focus pieces for those other than main eventers. I remember watching those interviews they would air on RAW with Foley/JR when he was slowly breaking out of Mankind character it really made a genuine connection and got him over to someone like me that don't know much about him or his past history at the time. The stuff with Braun has been a spotlight on what they could do with a lot more talent.

There are many good workers nowadays but they are focused as somewhat one dimensional talent who come out to wrestle random matches on the main rosters. Also main eventers losing some of the special ness being over exposed a lot too because of they amount of matches/shows they are airing etc compared to back in the 80s/90s. The brand split has helped that a little. They just don't build or focus enough on building the midcard below talent like they did in the Attitude era or the 80's were they could seemingly get almost anyone over, be entertaining and involved in their own storylines/skits. A lot of the midcard stuff in the Attitude era was alot of collaborations from what you hear with talent having some input as it was enhanced or exaggerated versions of personalities that got them over. Like a Austin/Foley/Rock/Angle/HHH/NAO/E&C/Hardcore Holly/Too Cool/Godfather/Rikishi/Al Snow/APA etc weren't too far off from some version of themselves. Being too scripted is not always good, let that talent go out their sometimes and see what fails/succeed for them and what catches on.

They also need to be fully convicted with their characters/storylines. Not this start-stop BS they have been doing for almost a decade with a lost generation of guys like Lashley, John Morrison, Ken Anderson, MVP, Carlito, Shelton, Santino, Sandow, Wade Barrett etc. Dolph Ziggler being an painful example. I agree with the Bray Wyatt comments, his character was cool for the first little while but he never would get the big wins or moments, so in the end his words about being a god etc were not connecting and has become incessant rambling. He should have been treated like the way Undertaker was when he was first brought on WWF. Even when Bray won the title they have a chance to redeem his character but totally dropped the ball making him the lose the belt in such a short time. He needs a big revamp and to find something that will make him click even if going face. Apollo Crews is another example of total lack of creativity. They just bring him cold on to the main Roster. For almost 2 years he has done nothing of not and being a backdrop to Titus O neill for the majority of his time. Not winning a significant match or in a notable angle/storyline doesn't help do anything. Yet he is quite good in the ring. Never has there been any focus on him maybe to show some packages on him and let him go out and try to do so some sort of character development or something that he may have an idea for to get him to connect as a heel or face.

Last edited by Razz : 02-17-2018 at 07:12 PM.
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  #20  
Old 02-18-2018, 10:30 AM
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A major difficulty is that the TV landscape for their demographic is SO PC now that there is no scope for edginess in the way there once was.

Think back a few years to A.W. and the live mic incident, where a gag that would go over most viewers head saw the talent fired immediately. There's no way A.W was given that gimmick and told "be careful what you say" but the first time a contentious thing was actually said, they canned it and him publicly.

Likewise, with the Nexus/Daniel Bryan incident... he didn't actually do too much wrong, they were told to tear the place up... but he went "just" too far and again, massive knee jerk reaction on WWE's part.

Titus does something a little "off" during Bryan's retirement and book 90 day's reduced to 60 day suspension...

Even further back you had Finlay fired as an agent because he came up with a GREAT heat drawing angle for Miz that upset some Marines...

Creativity is completely subjective in the WWE, you can come up with something Vince loves and still, if the sponsors, network or some commentator in the media picks up on it and says "nah...not having this..." then you're fucked.

So you end up with the ultimately futile overscripting... it kills the ability for talent to get over but stays "safe", fans turn away from the product cos they don't want safe...but Vince wants to sell to children and ultimately Disney... so it remains.
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