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  #11  
Old 10-26-2017, 01:22 PM
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Both have managed to make the mid-card championship the main championship on their respective brands. In Mahal's case that's pretty impressive considering he's there every week, at least with Lesnar there's the case of him hardly ever being on RAW.

But honestly, I think Lesnar's reign has been worse, and it all comes down to the expectations of both men.

Jinder has constantly disappointed as champion but that really shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone. He isn't credible, he doesn't have many, if any of the tools it takes. He's the very definition of a guy that's just "there"... except he's the WWE Champion.

But Brock has been just as disappointing, and Brock isn't supposed to disappoint. He's a once in a lifetime type athlete who has one of the best talkers in the history of wrestling right beside him, and he isn't living up to what he has proven he can be. He's been put in "dream match" type scenarios with guys like Strowman and Joe and both matches have been very flat. Plus it doesn't help that anyone with half a brain could tell months ago when his reign will end, where it'll end, and who will beat him. It's hard to get excited knowing that no one in the next year who challenges Brock has an even remote chance of winning because the end game for him and his reign is WrestleMania. (It's starting to become clear the same is happening with Jinder, but at least it took us months to realize).
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  #12  
Old 10-26-2017, 04:30 PM
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Well from one perspective, Brock Lesnar's reign has been terrible for the simple fact that he hardly ever defends it, and when he does, it's at the expense of somebody on the main roster who has organically gained so much momentum, only to then lose that steam because Lesnar has to remain champion to supposedly give credibility to the title. Yet, from the other perspective, Jinder Mahal has been flat out boring as champion, and his feuds with Randy Orton and Shinsuke Nakamura have been overlong, overdrawn and sad. And again, his reign has come at the expense of guys that deserve to carry THE title in professional wrestling.

I think that the logic that Jinder being champion during the Indian tour is to promote the WWE to it's optimum in India is somewhat sound on paper, but equally I can't justify his reign for that simple reason. If I did, I would then somehow have to justify how fans in England have become so passionate about WWE without ever having an English WWE Champion, despite a guy like Davey Boy Smith arguably being so deserving of it before his death, or guys like Wade Barrett ultimately being failed experiments. But during those periods, we had guys like Shawn Michaels or Steve Austin as champion, and with later examples we had John Cena and Triple H. All of these guys were great champions and made me invested in the main event product because of their legitimacy as champions, and personality and charisma on screen. Mahal has not once showed me any personality or charisma that justifies why he is champion at a time when a guy like AJ Styles is arguably at his professional peak and on the roster. My point is that WWE has some other great options on SmackDown for the WWE Championship, but instead what we have had is resistance from fans towards a guy that they can't take seriously, and detrimental feuds with guys who deserve so much more, all the while stifling the progression of much better talent.

But is this worse than a guy who hardly ever appears, and when he does, goes over guys like Braun Strowman, who has some of the most organic momentum I have seen in quite some years? Sure, Strowman might not be exactly ready. And sure, Strowman deserves his moment on a bigger stage than a forgettable B pay-per-view. But I think fans are over the idea that Brock Lesnar is this unbeatable monster. They have a new guy for that, who by the way produces a much more interesting match these days. I guess my issue with Lesnar as champion is, at this point, the affect it has on the progression of the stars on Raw. What do they have to fight for, especially when they lose anyway? The TLC event highlighted how empty an event can look without a world title match. The redeeming quality with Lesnar as champion is that a lot of people are still invested in seeing him, even if that majority has shrunk over the last few years. He does draw. Mahal does not draw. Maybe he does in India, but is WWE willing to accept a decline elsewhere to grab the attention of Indian fans. What happens when Mahal loses the title? By the logic that WWE is using now, doesn't this mean that Indian fans will tune out when Mahal's reign is done? That might sound petty, but Mahal doesn't need to be a champion to be in a prominent position at a time where WWE wishes to utilise him as a special attraction in foreign parts of the world.

There's a lot of rambling in this post, but it's a very interesting question that you pose and I'm glad someone has asked it. There are some redeeming qualities to Lesnar's reign, perhaps at best being that he is Brock fucking Lesnar. I struggle to find anything AT THIS POINT that makes me believe in Mahal's reign. Perhaps I just don't understand his purpose as champion. Maybe I'm old school in this sense, but when you have one of the biggest wrestling names in the world performing at what seems like his second peak, AJ Styles, he should be your champion. Brutus The Barber Beefcake was never champion when Hogan was around because Hogan was the guy. Styles is the guy on SmackDown. Maybe that logic is flawed, and I am all for progression and new and upcoming champions. But come on. At this point, why is Mahal still champion? I'd say he's had the worst reign.

Last edited by The Perfect Max : 10-26-2017 at 04:33 PM.
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  #13  
Old 10-26-2017, 04:46 PM
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Pretty good question actually. Brock Lesnar is clearly more fit to be a champion than Jinder Mahal but does that mean his run has actually been better? I will say this for him at least, the matches that he has had with Joe, Strowman, and Joe/Strowman/Reigns have felt like big-time title defenses and from what I've seen over the months, they generated a HELL of a lot more interest than any Mahal match with Orton and Nakamura. On the other hand, Lesnar's only defended the title three times since Wrestlemania and while I understand that this used to be a regular occurrence at one time, this isn't 1985 anymore. Fans expect the champion to be around and to see a title defense at every PPV. They've expected this for well over 20 years now. Throw in the possibility that we might not see another defense until January and we're bordering on downright ridiculous. At least Mahal has been around every week.

Pretty much, I just want the title off of both of them and I couldn't care less who takes it. I will gladly take a Roman Reigns championship run if it means the Universal title is going to be around full-time again. Jinder is downright boring with or without a title and I don't really think anybody wants him as WWE champion. And no, it's not because he's such a great heel like say, JBL was. It's because everybody knows he's not skilled, charismatic, or exciting enough to make for an intriguing WWE champion and we all know what we're getting with him whenever he walks through the curtain. An average, generic promo or an average, generic match.

I'd have to say that Lesnar's run has probably been better. He's a better champion and his matches generate a lot more interest than Mahal's. If he was around a bit more, this wouldn't even be up for discussion. Mahal's redeeming factor is that he's there... and that's basically all he has going for him.
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  #14  
Old 10-26-2017, 05:57 PM
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Jinder Mahal has had the worst run quite easily.

Lesnar at least has the match with Joe and the fatal 4-way at SummerSlam. Those alone trump anything Jinder has done.

I'm not sure what else to say. I can't think of one good moment/match/promo of Jinder's. He's just bad.
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  #15  
Old 10-27-2017, 01:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrestlingmasters55 View Post
If you look at it with 2017 eyes, then I would say that both even set the world on fire but if you look at it from an old school perpective then I would say both have had pretty good run for different reason.

Lesnar run as champion was done mostly to give credibility to the universal title as the equivalent of the wwe title by givig the belt to a big name star. So that what he's done. His booking was more of an old school type booking we're you don't see the champion every week so when I show up the wrestles, the match feels special kinda like when hulk hogan defended his title on tv back in the 80's, you didn't see Hogan wrestles every week but when he showed up, it felt special.
I feel like I'm banging my head against the wall here, but I will try again. Yes I agree that Lesnar's booking is old school. Back then you didn't see the champ every week, the champ didn't defend the title once a month and it was special when he did.

We are not old school anymore and this kind of booking doesn't work for a lot of fans. Wrestling is not just something that comes on for an hour a week like it used too. With the advent of the network, you can watch it 24/7 if you so desire. Just with the WWE alone there are 7 hours every week of live TV that have to be filled. There wasn't monthly or bi-monthly PPV's like there is now.

The title scene on RAW could have been written by a three year old this year. I can't remember a less exciting year for waiting to see who would get the title and who they would defend it against. It's like Vince lined up his wrestler's like duck's in a shooting booth and had Lesnar take them out one at a time. Just terrible.
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  #16  
Old 10-27-2017, 03:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Navi View Post
I feel like I'm banging my head against the wall here, but I will try again. Yes I agree that Lesnar's booking is old school. Back then you didn't see the champ every week, the champ didn't defend the title once a month and it was special when he did.

We are not old school anymore and this kind of booking doesn't work for a lot of fans. Wrestling is not just something that comes on for an hour a week like it used too. With the advent of the network, you can watch it 24/7 if you so desire. Just with the WWE alone there are 7 hours every week of live TV that have to be filled. There wasn't monthly or bi-monthly PPV's like there is now.

The title scene on RAW could have been written by a three year old this year. I can't remember a less exciting year for waiting to see who would get the title and who they would defend it against. It's like Vince lined up his wrestler's like duck's in a shooting booth and had Lesnar take them out one at a time. Just terrible.
There are many problems with Lesnar not defending the title. Even if I agree that Brock Lesnar is making this title feel special, it doesn't make it any logical. Plus, he isn't making title feel special.

Why should I buy a RAW PPV when the top champion isn't defending the title? Why should I buy a Smackdown PPV when the top champion is one of the worst champions? No reason and that's why I won't buy.

Does WWE want me buy every PPV? Or just the PPV when Brock Lesnar defends his title? After all, each PPV is a special event. The booking of World Champions this year have been like "We don't care for you. Watch if you want. Or don't. But we will keep the titles on guys we like".
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  #17  
Old 10-27-2017, 03:24 AM
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Jinder is by far worse because he doesn't draw in the attention that Brock does and his title matches have been far worse than Lesnar's.

I'd rather see a great match four times a year than a crappy one every single month. Quality over quantity, thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinChan View Post
There are many problems with Lesnar not defending the title. Even if I agree that Brock Lesnar is making this title feel special, it doesn't make it any logical. Plus, he isn't making title feel special.

Why should I buy a RAW PPV when the top champion isn't defending the title? Why should I buy a Smackdown PPV when the top champion is one of the worst champions? No reason and that's why I won't buy.

Does WWE want me buy every PPV? Or just the PPV when Brock Lesnar defends his title? After all, each PPV is a special event. The booking of World Champions this year have been like "We don't care for you. Watch if you want. Or don't. But we will keep the titles on guys we like".
WWE don't care about you buying PPVs.

They haven't since they started the Network. Your whole argument doesn't work. People are paying for the entire WWE library with the new PPVs as a huge feature. It doesn't matter when Brock defends because your audience has a bunch of original programming and every WWE PPV ever to watch with the incentive of staying subscribed to the Network being cheaper than ordering each individual Brock Lesnar PPV.

For me it'd cost more to buy each PPV with Lesnar on it through a PPV provider, considerably more in fact, than if I stayed subscribed to the WWE Network each month. Therefore, it makes no difference when Brock appears and your PPV point makes zero sense.

WWE got out of that market long ago.
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  #18  
Old 10-27-2017, 03:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Da Prophet View Post
WWE don't care about you buying PPVs.

They haven't since they started the Network. Your whole argument doesn't work. People are paying for the entire WWE library with the new PPVs as a huge feature. It doesn't matter when Brock defends because your audience has a bunch of original programming and every WWE PPV ever to watch with the incentive of staying subscribed to the Network being cheaper than ordering each individual Brock Lesnar PPV.

For me it'd cost more to buy each PPV with Lesnar on it through a PPV provider, considerably more in fact, than if I stayed subscribed to the WWE Network each month. Therefore, it makes no difference when Brock appears and your PPV point makes zero sense.

WWE got out of that market long ago.
My intention was to ask why should I watch a particular PPV if the top champion isn't defending his title?

Be it via buying PPV or subscribing to WWE Network. Apparently, the commentary does ask to subscribe to Network to watch some certain PPV. Don't they? The point was more about "Why to watch a PPV" instead of just buying a PPV or subscribing to Network.
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  #19  
Old 10-27-2017, 05:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinChan View Post
My intention was to ask why should I watch a particular PPV if the top champion isn't defending his title?

Be it via buying PPV or subscribing to WWE Network. Apparently, the commentary does ask to subscribe to Network to watch some certain PPV. Don't they? The point was more about "Why to watch a PPV" instead of just buying a PPV or subscribing to Network.
But at the same point, while they want fans to subscribe to the network fto watch the PPV, they really don't care if you watch every PPV. We are living in a new era where their so much content available that you can pick and choose what you want.

I'm one of the lucky one that got the network as a actually cable network. Last week TLC show didn't interest me even at all even with all the change, you could have put lesnar on the card and I would have skip it anyway. So I pvr it and watch the part that seem interesting later on.

The point I'm making is that being the champion of a brand doesn't mean as much as it use to. Now you can have a champion not show up on every b- shows and it won't make a difference because they still get the same number of suscribers either way.
They been stuck at 1.5 millions subscribers for a while now and I don't see this number changing anytime soon even if you take the belt off Lesnar and on to somebody else. The fact is fans in the arena still pops big for lesnar when he shows up with the belt and that's what important in the end. Same goes for jinder, fans still boo the hell out of him in the arena and that's what's important for them for now.
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  #20  
Old 10-27-2017, 06:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Navi View Post
I feel like I'm banging my head against the wall here, but I will try again. Yes I agree that Lesnar's booking is old school. Back then you didn't see the champ every week, the champ didn't defend the title once a month and it was special when he did.

We are not old school anymore and this kind of booking doesn't work for a lot of fans. Wrestling is not just something that comes on for an hour a week like it used too. With the advent of the network, you can watch it 24/7 if you so desire. Just with the WWE alone there are 7 hours every week of live TV that have to be filled. There wasn't monthly or bi-monthly PPV's like there is now.

The title scene on RAW could have been written by a three year old this year. I can't remember a less exciting year for waiting to see who would get the title and who they would defend it against. It's like Vince lined up his wrestler's like duck's in a shooting booth and had Lesnar take them out one at a time. Just terrible.
I get that we are in 2017 now not in the 80's yet their a lot of similarities between that era and today's era. First, while viewer's are important for wwe, they go by who's over with th live crowd just like they did back then. Lesnar draws crowd in the arena, he will always draw crowds and having him as champion even if he's just part time as help te title tremendously after the awful booking of it with owens last year. The title needed a rehab and lesnar gave it that.

Secondly, simple characters still works. You look at jimder for this one. Has he been a great champions, heel no, he's a generic champion and he's been really boring, but again the anti american heel champion character his working for him since the fans in the arenas are reacting to his act so they continue to push him because of it.

The point is that, will the tv product is still important to them, they don't needed it as much as they use to. They have they're 1.5 millions subscribers to the network that will stay subscribe no matter what or who they push. The ratings are steady and they get pay the same amount of money no matter who watch.

So the thing and and that is the final similarity with the 80's. Where back to a caring more about fans that buys tickets for the shows and how they react to those characters then how the viewers react to the tv product. If you look at it that way lesnar and jinder are doing their job just fine. Lesnar is putting butts in seat every time he's on the card, jinder is one of the top heel on the smackdown roster behind owens and zayn so he's doing his job as well.

WWE as always been more of a characters product and less of a wrestling company. They decide who to push on how over the character is. If fans don't react to a character, they don't or stop pushing him just like how they did back in the 80's. That's how wwe as always worked and that one part of the product that will never change. Fans reactions in a live seeting is the most important thing for them. That's how they see who to push and who they don't push. So the booking will suffer because of this. The tv viewers are ot as important anymore as it once did because in the end, they know that even if we don't like what see on t.v, when they come to town for a tv tapings, we will flock and buy tickets anyway. So who's the champion on each brand isn't as important as it once was. If you look at it from a tv show perspective, then yes, they are both bad champion, but as far as live events characters, they did pretty well as champion.
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