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  #1  
Old 10-25-2017, 11:08 PM
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Default Which Heavyweight Championship run is worse?

Brock Lesnar or Jinder Mahal? They are both pretty bad and I don't know if one is any better than the other. Brock Lesnar has held the Universal Championship for nearly 7 months and has, if my memory is correct, only defended it three times. He defeated Samao Joe, won a Fatal 4 Way against Joe, Roman, and Braun, and then defeated Braun in a one on one competition. And as we know, he will not be defending his title at Survivor Series. Chances are we won't see him defend a title for the rest of the year, which means three title defenses in around nine months. His quality of matches is nothing to write home about either, the man does about three or four variations of the same move.

On the other hand, Jinder Mahal is...well...Jinder Mahal. He shouldn't even be near the WWE Championship that has been held by the likes of Hulk Hogan, Bret Hart, Stone Cold, and the Rock. He has held the WWE title for just over 5 months and has defeated the likes of Randy Orton and Shinsuke Nakamura. Up until his latest defense against Shinsuke, he had yet to win a match cleanly.

As much as Brock pisses me off (never defending the title and not even helping out at TLC), his reign has to be better just because he is more believable as a champion. At this time last year we had Kevin Owens and AJ Styles as the respective champions. Lord how I miss those days.
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  #2  
Old 10-25-2017, 11:54 PM
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Great topic. Both are bad for completely different reasons.

Jinder never deserved the title to begin with and he has been really lousy as World Heavyweight Champion. Sure he's there and defends the thing, but he's not believable in the role. How can anyone believe that Jinder could ever defeat Shinsuke Nakamura and Randy Orton? We get it. Vince wants to create a fanbase in India with Jinder. This experiment better go well because it has cost the opportunity for other guys who actually do deserve the spot. Imagine if Owens, Nakamura, Styles, or even Sami could be in that main event spot. Nope we are stuck with someone who is completely unworthy. And BORING. The only redeeming factor in Jinder's push is laughing at his sidekicks when his challengers attack them.

Then we have Brock. The opposite issue of Jinder's. While Jinder is there and sucks, Brock IS believable as a final boss type of heel. The big problem with Brock is that he's never there. Heyman has no right to call Brock the "reigning DEFENDING" champion due to Brock rarely ever defending. We are going to go for 4 months without a Universal Championship defense from the looks of it. Absolutely bogus. I don't dislike Brock being the champion. He had a great match with Joe and the feud with Strowman was also good, until the match itself. My problem is the lack of title opportunities.

We truly are picking our poison here. Ultimately, I pick Brock's reign as the worse one. As awful as Jinder is, he still defends the title monthly as a World Champion is supposed to. Brock shouldn't get special treatment as the exemption to the rule. Within kayfabe the whole point of being a wrestler is to become a World Champion. Those who hold the World Championships should be forced to defend them or be stripped of the title. Brock should have lost the title a month after Wrestlemania.
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  #3  
Old 10-26-2017, 12:33 AM
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This is a completely ridiculous question. Mahal is clearly worse.

The most improtant attribute for a champion to have is credibility. Being champion means you're supposed to be the best, and Lesnar is believable as the best. Mahal being WWE Champion now is like Al Snow being WWE champion in 1999.

Brock Lesnar is a main event. He elevates the importance of the Universal Title, and generates an awesome atmosphere for his matches. Mahal makes the WWE Title seem meaningless. Lesnar is by far the biggest star on RAW, babyface or heel, and you can name multiple guys that are more over and more deserving than Mahal on SmackDown. Styles, Nakamura, Orton, Owens, Roode are all more credible and more believable. Given the same push as Mahal, Rusev would be way more believable as well.

Mahal has a great look, and I'm a fan of his promos, but the way he had the title thrown on him out of nowhere did him no favors. I'm completely against the idea of "growing into" a world title in wrestling. That's what the IC Title and US Title are for, and Mahal would have been a perfect US champ, especially with his gimmick. A world title should be held by one of two people on your roster: the top babyface or the top heel, until a wrestler gets over enough to usurp one of those spots, he shouldn't get the belt. That's how you protect a title and make it matter.

In the last 7 years, only 4 guys have held the IWGP Heavyweight Title. There's been more than 4 reigns obviously, but it's been passed between 4 guys. Styles, Okada, Tanahashi, Naito. The top guys. All of them were either top heel or top babyface. Okada and Tanahashi were the aces of the company, Styles was the top heel leader of an invading faction in Bullet Club, Naito only got it when he evolved his character and became a number one heel instead of a lukewarm babyface.

Notice how the IWGP Heavyweight Title actually feels important. That's a big reason why.
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  #4  
Old 10-26-2017, 12:52 AM
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This is a completely ridiculous question. Mahal is clearly worse.

The most improtant attribute for a champion to have is credibility. Being champion means you're supposed to be the best, and Lesnar is believable as the best. Mahal being WWE Champion now is like Al Snow being WWE champion in 1999.

Brock Lesnar is a main event. He elevates the importance of the Universal Title, and generates an awesome atmosphere for his matches. Mahal makes the WWE Title seem meaningless. Lesnar is by far the biggest star on RAW, babyface or heel, and you can name multiple guys that are more over and more deserving than Mahal on SmackDown. Styles, Nakamura, Orton, Owens, Roode are all more credible and more believable. Given the same push as Mahal, Rusev would be way more believable as well.

Mahal has a great look, and I'm a fan of his promos, but the way he had the title thrown on him out of nowhere did him no favors. I'm completely against the idea of "growing into" a world title in wrestling. That's what the IC Title and US Title are for, and Mahal would have been a perfect US champ, especially with his gimmick. A world title should be held by one of two people on your roster: the top babyface or the top heel, until a wrestler gets over enough to usurp one of those spots, he shouldn't get the belt. That's how you protect a title and make it matter.

In the last 7 years, only 4 guys have held the IWGP Heavyweight Title. There's been more than 4 reigns obviously, but it's been passed between 4 guys. Styles, Okada, Tanahashi, Naito. The top guys. All of them were either top heel or top babyface. Okada and Tanahashi were the aces of the company, Styles was the top heel leader of an invading faction in Bullet Club, Naito only got it when he evolved his character and became a number one heel instead of a lukewarm babyface.

Notice how the IWGP Heavyweight Title actually feels important. That's a big reason why.
First off, great username. Also, at least Al Snow got a reaction from the crowd. I'll give you this, the question does seem ridiculous on paper. But I just can't get behind Brock being the Universal Champion. Brock is a huge star but they haven't done him favors with the squash loss to Goldberg and instant Rumble elimination. He's still just 1-2 against Goldberg and I can't recall the last time a Brock Lesnar match really stood out.

And unfortunately we already know he's going to hold the the title for another five or six months until Mania. If we're lucky we will see two title defenses form now until then (Just five in a calendar year.) I just think it is disrespectful to the guys that actually work full time and give everything they have to the company. They have bent over backwards to accommodate Brock while others get shoved aside.

Brock is more believable. Brock is more talented. And Brock is definitely a bigger star. However, and it sounds crazy to say, Jinder works much harder. As ridiculous as him being WWE Champion is, and its laughable, he has actually work incredibly hard. Meanwhile, Brock alienates himself from the rest of the locker room and refuses to give his all in matches, as if saying "We're lucky just to be able to see him perform."
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  #5  
Old 10-26-2017, 02:29 AM
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I thought the point of a heel champion was to put the babyface over. If that is the case, Mahal is going to do a much better job than Lesnar.

Brock is going to let someone already built to beat him, beat him. Then fuck off for a while, maybe indefinitely. There's nothing immediate about Brock as champion. If he loses, so what? Now we'll have an active champion? But when Mahal loses, there's plenty to speculate. It just seems there's more to gain from beating Mahal then there is Brock to me. More emotion to be had on all sides. I want to know what happens to India's interest in WWE when Mahal loses. I want to know where Mahal goes after being a jobber-turned-WWE Champion-now former Champion, and I want to know who it will be to do it. The narrative around Mahal is more interesting than Lesnar's, as Lesnar has done his song and dance way too often now for me to care.

Brock Lesnar's run is the worst for me as it hasn't allowed me to give a damn about the Universal title since it was created. I'm more invested in Kalisto's Cruiserweight run than I am in his.
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  #6  
Old 10-26-2017, 03:26 AM
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Considering that I like Brock Lesnar's title reign I would have to say Jinder Mahal's title reign is worse.

Now I am not going to discuss credibility here because we all know Lesnar wins this by a landslide.

As for the actual title reign. Jinder Mahal's reign is boring, his matches have been below average, he cuts the same promos, and even if he's getting better it's still not good enough where he should be the featured star on Smackdown.

A lot of people criticize Lesnar's title reign since he doesn't defend it in every PPV and his matches tend to be quite short. I would like to defend the two criticisms. For the title not being defended in every PPV remember there was a time when the World Title was defended less frequently and this made actual title defenses more special. And that what has happened to Lesnar he's made his title defenses feel more special. Sure it has to do a lot with his limited schedule but still it makes Lesnar's appearance a big time moment. As for his matches being too short, yes I agree it's a problem. While his short matches with Goldberg is fine I do feel like his matches with Joe and Braun could have used another 5 mins. But I am not too annoyed with this since it gives the match a bit more realism and it's a quality the WWE could use more of these days.
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  #7  
Old 10-26-2017, 05:47 AM
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Brock Lesnar's run would have been great had he been there to defend the belt at least every couple of months. But he's not. As the posters above me said, he will have had 3 titles defenses, from which the two were good and one of them underperformed, at a span of 9 months. And it sucks because watching Brock with the belt around him feels great and legit. The format would have been simple really:

Payback: #1 contender's match
Extreme Rules: 1st defense
GBoF: #1 contender's match for Summerslam
Summerslam: 2nd defense
No Mercy: 3rd defense - SSlam rematch
TLC: #1 contender's match
SSeries: 4th defense
December PPV: #1 contender's match
Royal Rumble: 5th defense
FastLane: #1 contender's match
Wrestlemania: 6th and final defense

It's not great, but at least you'd feel the physical presence of the belt more often. His reigns is better than his first one back in 2014-15 though, where he had only ONE successful defense. But he's not there and the title isn't even mentioned on TV.

One the other hand you got Jinder a champion that nobody wants to see holding a belt, but he's at least there to defend it. Man it's like you have two polar opposites.

So, what makes a reign memorable and good? You need to judge the start, the in-between and the ending.
Both Mahal and Lesnar had a great start. The first one shocked the world and the second one defeated Goldberg at Wrestlemania. Their in-between is a tie for me, they both suck, but at least Mahal is trying. What about the ending though?

Well, Brock is gonna drop this to Roman. The whole world knows it, even my grandma knows it. 4th WM main event in a row for Roman, yet another Wrestlemania ending with hate or apathy and predictability. That's a mediocre ending.

Mahal though, will either give Styles his first babyface run as a champ or Cena his 17th reign. These are both moments to get excited about, so Mahal gets the vote for me.

Both had a great start. Lesnar's legitemacy and no-title defense equals Mahal un-legitimacy and constant title defenses and his hard work, but Mahal's reign will lead to a more exciting and more unpredictable moment. It all could change and Lesnar might not drop the belt to a face Roman Reigns at WM 34, but if it doesn't, then Mahal gets my vote.

Plus Mahal putting the belt on Mahal, actually lets Styles to grow as a babyface, lets Owens grow as a heel and also gave an opportunity to Shinsuke Nakamura at the main event. It was a risky bussiness move. I'll give them those at least.
What did Lesnar accomplish? Nothing. We got a dream match between him and Joe that never really reached the expectation of that dream match, he didn't really do anything for Strowman, he's still the same Strowman he was before that match. All he really did was just feed on Strowman's hype and he will most likely feed on the Demon's hype as well, before losing it to Roman, and then we'll have to sit through yet another reign that not many want to see.

Mahal for the vote.
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  #8  
Old 10-26-2017, 06:30 AM
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Jinder Mahal and it's not even remotely close. Jinder Mahal may very well go down as the worst WWE Champion in history and that's something that will only be exacerbated if the title is kept on him all the way to WrestleMania.

That's not to say that Lesnar's run doesn't have faults, because it most certainly does, but there are redeeming values that Lesnar has that Jinder simply doesn't. Lesnar has credibility that was built from nearly 2 years in WWE from 2002-2004 and while he wasn't there for long, he left a major mark on the company that had a lot of people talking about him long after he left, a lot never even stopped talking about him, because Lesnar was a genuine freak of nature in those days. It wasn't just that Lesnar was so dominant, it's that he was so dominant and put on so many fantastic matches with so many different opponents. Lesnar was probably the physical embodiment of the perfect professional wrestler in Vince McMahon's eyes. Want proof? Brock Lesnar became the WWE Champion for the very first time 3 months to day of his television debut. Lesnar was big, he was strong, he was athletic, he had an amazing look and was a genuine marvel to behold really. Lesnar's problem was that the guy had no heart, no real passion for wrestling; he loved all the money he was making but wasn't at all happy about the fact that he was having to work his ass off for every penny he got. I think that he believed that it'd be a cake walk, that, like many other athletes before him, pro wrestling would be easy money only to find out the opposite.

When it comes to Jinder Mahal, there's simply nothing there. Jinder is only WWE Champion because Vince McMahon hopes that it will help lead to WWE expanding its audience into India. Jinder is being pushed not because of his ability, but because of his skin color and ethnicity; in some ways, when you get right down to it, Jinder Mahal is the first affirmative action WWE Champion. Jinder's not a good wrestler whether it's in the ring, on the mic or as a character; watching him wrestle in matches is often like watching paint dry, his promos are the embodiment of "if you've seen/heard one, you've seen/heard 'em all" and there's just nothing remotely interesting about his character. I've said it lots of times: at the very, very, very most, on his best day, Jinder Mahal is an average professional wrestler with a fantastic physique.

Lesnar's flaws as champion have been the fact that he often doesn't come around and he's no longer the dynamic in-ring performer he was 15 years ago. In 2016, Brock Lesnar earned a reported $12 million in WWE for making what amounted to a handful of TV appearances and wrestling an even smaller handful of matches. However, I don't hold that against Brock because I, just like everyone else on these boards, would most definitely take Vince's money if he was stupid enough to give it to me. Up until the past several months, Brock Lesnar's matches have consisted almost entirely of squash matches that revolve around him delivering a plethora of German suplexes before hitting the F5. Prior to what we've seen from Great Balls of Fire, Brock Lesnar had spent virtually his entire time in WWE, except for a few matches with John Cena & CM Punk, making modern stars look like scrubs whereas the only guys to hold their own with Lesnar in feuds were Attitude Era guys like Triple H, the Undertaker and Goldberg. As a result, Lesnar's matches had become all but unwatchable until WWE took a different approach for his match with Samoa Joe at Great Balls of Fire: they made Joe look like a threat due to making Lesnar look vulnerable by having Joe get the best of him. During the match, and the brawl that happened before the match itself, Joe again looked like a worthy challenger, someone who was on the cusp of beating Lesnar and they kept that going through SummerSlam with his bout against Joe, Roman Reigns & Braun Strowman and for his singles match at No Mercy against Strowman. While I'm still not a fan of Lesnar ultimately not being around as much as other champions, at least his matches have finally become worth watching and actually help elevate the younger talent instead of the company booking them to look like guys who had no business even being in the ring with him. Lesnar still has issues regarding his singles matches, the guy's lazier than hell much of the time, but I'll take improvement where I can get it.

I get that Jinder being WWE Champion is purely business, like it really should be for any main event champion. As I've said in some other threads, just think of all the money that could be generated if only a small fraction of a percent of the population of India signs up for the WWE Network. Let's say that beginning in December, during WWE's tour of India, through WrestleMania that 4 million people from India, on average, subscribe to the network; that's a ton of money and it's possible considering that 4 million is only about...what? a fourth of a single percent of the population? If it happens then, unfortunately, Jinder's status as a main eventer will be secured and we'll have years of mediocrity to look forward to in the main event picture. I get why Vince is pushing him, I understand it, but that doesn't mean I like it because it's my opinion that Jinder isn't a good wrestler at all.
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  #9  
Old 10-26-2017, 06:42 AM
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I have to agree with Dagger here, both have been kind of horrible. Lesnar isn't there to defend the Universal Title and Mahal doesn't have the credentials to even be a world champion. Not yet anyway.

Listen we all knew what was going on happen once Lesnar won the title, its not like we haven't been on this merry-go-round before. He wins the title and then we don't see him for months. Every once in awhile he'll show up, Heyman will come out and go on about the fact that he's this, that and the other and Brock will dance around smiling like a monkey. When there is a title defense it will be suplex after suplex and a couple of F5's, then the match is over.

Say what you want about Mahal being boring but Lesnar matches haven't exactly set the world on fire either. When it comes to Mahal though, I have to give the guy props for at least being there week in and week out. He definitely lacks the credibility that Lesnar has, but the WWE is trying with him. Can anyone say they weren't surprised when he won, I know I was. It's much better than the waste of time the championship belt is on RAW.

On SD Live, Mahal will do the India tour then drop the title to Styles, Owens or Nakamura, hopefully, he will have served the purpose for giving it to him in the first place. After that he'll go back to the mid card where he quite rightly belongs. I can actually see him in a feud with Corbin for the US title. We all know that Lesnar will hold the belt until Mania, he'll drop it to Reigns (God knows why he needs another rub), but that is supposed to send everyone home happy. It won't but God love them for keeping with the plan.

For those that say "the championship shouldn't be defended all the time", well hell isn't that why there is a hierarchy to begin with? Isn't that why these guys are out there night after night? The WWE is a ladder without rungs at this point in time.

So I guess the answer to the question is there is no answer. Both titles have been a total waste of time this year.
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Old 10-26-2017, 09:18 AM
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If you look at it with 2017 eyes, then I would say that both even set the world on fire but if you look at it from an old school perpective then I would say both have had pretty good run for different reason.

Lesnar run as champion was done mostly to give credibility to the universal title as the equivalent of the wwe title by givig the belt to a big name star. So that what he's done. His booking was more of an old school type booking we're you don't see the champion every week so when I show up the wrestles, the match feels special kinda like when hulk hogan defended his title on tv back in the 80's, you didn't see Hogan wrestles every week but when he showed up, it felt special.

Jinder's run as wwe champion was done mostly to try and get more peoples from india to buy the network, did it work, maybe. All we know is what wwe as release about this. But when you look at Jinder when he won the title compared to we're he is today, he took the opportunity that they give him and made the most out of it. The guy is becoming a better character because of this run and shows that it he belong in the mid card when he lose the title. When I look at his run as champion, he's pretty much doing the foreign heel champion character like iron sheik was doing in the 80's and he's becoming good a heel. Fans do react to him which he didn't get before, the singh brothers are great in their roles and while some fans don't like him because he was a jobber before becoming champion, he is a new talent that they are trying to get behnd and to move up the card which is something they haven't done in awhile now. So again he's not a great champion but considering where he started, the guy as had a pretty good run as champion as well.

In the end, I feel that it all depend on how you look at their runs. If you take wrestling like a serious thing and care about in ring work and win and lost then, they both had bad runs as champions, if you're more into character development and storytelling then they had prety good runs as champions
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