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  #21  
Old 08-15-2017, 11:31 AM
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WWE hit those demographics. Yet didn't get top dollar. TV shows get canceled if ad revenue isn't high enough.
They are canceled early. Nitro lasted from 1995 to 2001. So obviously the revenue was there. Top dollar maybe compared to the NFL but I guarantee they were getting more ad revenue than most entertainment shows.

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Let's see the problems with selling WCW to Bischoff. Big names would likely be gone. Barebones roster. Massive loss of talent. Distant #2 company. Now sell that to advertisers because AOLTW still has to pay for WCW to produce a show. That also means AOLTW has to make a multi-year commitment to WCW (cause Fusient Media probably required a commitment). You see the problem here with low ad sales? Big risk on AOLTW's part to continue airing WCW.
50 million plus a stake in the company vs 2.5 million is not hard math buddy. AOLTW also would have had ownership so they wouldn't have had to pay to put WCW on. All they had to do was give WCW a time slot and considering Nitro was still the highest rated show they had, probably not that hard. You also had a company with the track record of generating hundreds of millions of dollars, was able to hit the 18-35 male demographic, was consistently pulling in ratings 2.0 and above even in it's lowest year, and was going to be based out of Las Vegas, a major media market. I don't think they wold have any trouble getting advertisers.

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Except Bischoff did say this on his DVD...I mean like I just watched the DVD about a week ago.

They were more than willing to sell to Bischoff. Fusient called off the deal not AOLTW.
Fusient called off the deal after Kellner (under orders from Siegel) cancelled all WCW programming. That is not disputed.

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You must have a nice tin foil hat.
You believe everything you hear?

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And you have completely forgotten what we were talking about.
You said "low ad revenue" led to cancellation of the WCW shows yet WCW survived from 1990 - 2001 how do you explain that? If Nitro was not generating any revenue they would've cancelled it very early on considering it took a lot of money to produce. Like I said even WWE in a year where they lost money was able to command a 50 percent increase from advertisers so you're blowing this "ad thing" out of proportion. Nitro might've not been up there with pro sports but I guarantee they were still commanding a pretty significant amount vs other entertainment shows.

Last edited by Makaveli31 : 08-15-2017 at 11:53 AM.
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  #22  
Old 08-15-2017, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Makaveli31 View Post
I had to to LOL at this post. AOL-Time Warner was one of the, if not THE biggest financial disasters of all time. AOL Time Warner lost over 99 BILLION in 2002 alone. WCW was a drop in the bucket of this monstrosity. Everything was bleeding money not just WCW. AOL stock went from 226 billion to 20 billion. News Flash: WCW would've been sold if they made or lost 500 million dollars.

The issue here is Eric Bischoff put together a group on investors ready to buy WCW. Fusient Media Ventures. They were offering close to 50 million to purchase WCW and were offering Time Warner a minority stake in the company to keep WCW on TNT and TBS (keep in mind Nitro was still the highest rated cable show on TNT.)

Brad Siegel, head of WCW at the time, conspired with Stu Snyder (then-president of WWE) to make sure WWE could acquire WCW. Snyder and Siegel had a previous relationship. The only way WWE could counter Fusient's offer was if the WCW shows were cancelled. With no TV WCW was worthless. Siegel convinced Kellner to cancel the shows. With the shows cancelled Fusient was forced to withdraw their offer and WCW was sold for a paltry 2.5 million to WWE. There were four offers that were much more than what WWE offered. Siegel basically sabotaged his own company.

THAT is the TRUE story of how WCW died.
This is what i agree with 100% on....some will say WCW killed WCW and while it's true that WCW was pathetic, if it was sold to Bischoff's investors and they either 1) had another channel for WCW to air or 2) if the original deal went down, then WCW would still be around today, just likely not in the great shape that it used to be in.

the problem was the tv time was cancelled and Siegal and Kellner were behind this and AOL/Time Warner was a bad merger for both parties in the end because in the end, both companies were losing money and then split up. in fact, Time Warner is now gone if i am right and they are now Spectrum.

to me all the issues before it (Bischoff, Russo, Hogan, Sullivan and others) were small dents in the ship, but AOL/Time Warner was the major hole in the ship, the one that caused the ship to sink to the bottom.
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  #23  
Old 08-15-2017, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Makaveli31 View Post
They are canceled early. Nitro lasted from 1995 to 2001. So obviously the revenue was there. Top dollar maybe compared to the NFL but I guarantee they were getting more ad revenue than most entertainment shows.
It was more profitable for Spike TV to air reruns of cops over TNA. Why? Ad revenue. WWE went PG because big advertisers would not touch them due to the perception (wrestling being dirty) and the income problem. While that hasn't fixed all of their problems, it did help them get a bigger TV contract.

WCW was losing money and ad sales could not make them profitable. Nitro only lasted that long because Ted Turner protected them. His decision to keep Nitro was not a business one. The decision to cancel it was. They could replace it with something that commands top dollar, crossover appeal and wasn't losing a crap ton of money.

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50 million plus a stake in the company vs 2.5 million is not hard math buddy. AOLTW also would have had ownership so they wouldn't have had to pay to put WCW on. All they had to do was give WCW a time slot and considering Nitro was still the highest rated show they had, probably not that hard. You also had a company with the track record of generating hundreds of millions of dollars, was able to hit the 18-35 male demographic, was consistently pulling in ratings 2.0 and above even in it's lowest year, and was going to be based out of Las Vegas, a major media market. I don't think they wold have any trouble getting advertisers.
Again, ratings don't necessarily equal ad revenue. It also does not equal profit. WCW was losing money. I've given you evidence of this. I can give a ton more. You seem to purposely ignore it or are not smart enough to understand it. They did have trouble with advertisers. Bischoff literally said advertisers were warned to not touch wrestling. That was a big problem.

AOLTW would have to pay WCW a TV contract. That isn't cheap. They were able to hit those demographics when they had big names. They couldn't get those names anymore. It was obvious that their future was not bright.


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Fusient called off the deal after Kellner (under orders from Siegel) cancelled all WCW programming. That is not disputed.
No, WCW was losing millions and Kellner made a smart business decision. Here is a fun fact. WWE couldn't even get WCW a TV show. WWE was airing Raw, SD, Heat, Livewire, Jakked, Excess, Superstars and Attitude. Not all of those aired worldwide but they couldn't even convince NBC to air Nitro.

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You believe everything you hear?
No but I also don't believe things that are obviously preposterous. Your conspiracy would involve a person purposely losing millions of dollars for zero gain. My theory is based on evidence and logic.

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You said "low ad revenue" led to cancellation of the WCW shows yet WCW survived from 1990 - 2001 how do you explain that? If Nitro was not generating any revenue they would've cancelled it very early on considering it took a lot of money to produce. Like I said even WWE in a year where they lost money was able to command a 50 percent increase from advertisers so you're blowing this "ad thing" out of proportion. Nitro might've not been up there with pro sports but I guarantee they were still commanding a pretty significant amount vs other entertainment shows.
Actually they wanted to cancel it. Numerous times. Only Ted said no. No one could fight Ted. They didn't want to cancel it when it was raking in money. Once it started losing money, they did. WCW only made a profit in 96, 97 and 98 since 1990. I'm not sure what the situation was like before 1990.

You misunderstood. It was hard to see how they were going to recoup a TV contract with a company that does not draw top dollar for advertisements and was getting worse in terms of star power.

WWE lost money because of the Network startup costs (that took a TON of money). Otherwise they have been on a record revenue (not net income) streak for a few years in a row. So it wasn't alarming that WWE lost money. The product may not be at its healthiest but they are making money.

Again, stop shitting yourself when you see a big number. Do research. You didn't even try to find out why WWE would get an increase when they lost money. You didn't find that odd at all. You seem to lack critical thinking skills.
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  #24  
Old 08-15-2017, 05:46 PM
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According to the death of wcw book, the only reason wcw wasn't shut down in 1993 was because Ted Turner liked it. That's it. 1993 was a pretty bad year in wcw.
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  #25  
Old 08-15-2017, 11:37 PM
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the only reason WWE couldn't get WCW on TV was because of the deal they had with TNN at the time barring them from airing a wrestling show on directly competing networks
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  #26  
Old 08-16-2017, 01:02 AM
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Originally Posted by relentless1 View Post
the only reason WWE couldn't get WCW on TV was because of the deal they had with TNN at the time barring them from airing a wrestling show on directly competing networks
That is not true.

Here is a promo for WCW's return:
https://vimeo.com/74583488

WWE tried to get another show for WCW. Saturday night show which eventually fell apart. Likely fell apart due to the extremely thin roster (Booker, DDP...Lance Storm?), bad timeslot and numerous other reasons. Jim Ross confirmed they were planning to do this:
http://www.ign.com/articles/2001/03/...-date-and-time
They accurately point out that it would be unlikely to succeed.

They then thought about it replacing Raw. That fell apart likely due to lack of star power/interest. Booker T vs Buff didn't help but that likely wasn't the sole reason these plans never came to be.
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  #27  
Old 08-16-2017, 05:00 PM
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It was more profitable for Spike TV to air reruns of cops over TNA. Why? Ad revenue. WWE went PG because big advertisers would not touch them due to the perception (wrestling being dirty) and the income problem. While that hasn't fixed all of their problems, it did help them get a bigger TV contract.
COPS is what they call "cheap programming" it's cheap to produce and it's cheap to buy. Perfect for a small channel like Spike but if you're TNT and you want to compete with the big boys i.e. ESPN and Fox Sports you need live programming and Nitro provided that.

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WCW was losing money and ad sales could not make them profitable. Nitro only lasted that long because Ted Turner protected them. His decision to keep Nitro was not a business one. The decision to cancel it was. They could replace it with something that commands top dollar, crossover appeal and wasn't losing a crap ton of money.
By your own admission WCW generated a profit in '96, '97, and '98 and in 1998 they made more money than any wrestling company in history so obviously ad sales were not a problem. The problem was the bloated contracts Bischoff gave out. One guy cannot make 10 million per year etc....when PPV buys and attendance goes down.

WCW was spending way more than they were taking in but they were a drop on the bucket in the Time Warner media conglomerate. Time Warner was involved in media, movies, sports, etc....When AOL merged with Time Warner they became even more insignificant. Turner was completely out of the picture. When the AOL stock dropped from 226 billion to 20 billion they started scrapping EVERYTHING. WCW, the Hawks, the Braves, the Thrashers, Philips Arena, so ad revenue or (lack of) had nothing to do with the sale of WCW.

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AOLTW would have to pay WCW a TV contract. That isn't cheap. They were able to hit those demographics when they had big names. They couldn't get those names anymore. It was obvious that their future was not bright.
AOLTW would've had a financial stake in the company so any fee they would have had to pay Fusient would've been reimbursed iwhen WCW came back online. They also would have profited had WCW taken off. How do you know they couldn't get those names anymore? Bischoff had relationships with all the big names. In fact, they probably would've come back for half of what they made in WCW so it would'v saved Fusient a hell of a lot of money.

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No, WCW was losing millions and Kellner made a smart business decision. Here is a fun fact. WWE couldn't even get WCW a TV show. WWE was airing Raw, SD, Heat, Livewire, Jakked, Excess, Superstars and Attitude. Not all of those aired worldwide but they couldn't even convince NBC to air Nitro.
Smart business decision? So you have a company you want to sell. You have one company offering 50 million, all they want you to do is keep the status quo. You already have WCW programming on TV. It's not costing you a dime to keep Nitro on air. Another company is offering 2.5 million. You would choose the 2.5?!?? I think you need a economics class.

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No but I also don't believe things that are obviously preposterous. Your conspiracy would involve a person purposely losing millions of dollars for zero gain. My theory is based on evidence and logic.
Siegel would not have made or lost any money. It was AOL/Time Warner's money. He would be moved to a different division. He just did his friend a favor.

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Actually they wanted to cancel it. Numerous times. Only Ted said no. No one could fight Ted. They didn't want to cancel it when it was raking in money. Once it started losing money, they did. WCW only made a profit in 96, 97 and 98 since 1990. I'm not sure what the situation was like before 1990.
So Ted Turner being forced out of power in the AOL merger led to the death of WCW. Thank you for making my point for me,.
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  #28  
Old 08-16-2017, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Makaveli31 View Post
COPS is what they call "cheap programming" it's cheap to produce and it's cheap to buy. Perfect for a small channel like Spike but if you're TNT and you want to compete with the big boys i.e. ESPN and Fox Sports you need live programming and Nitro provided that.
I used that as an example to illustrate my point.

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By your own admission WCW generated a profit in '96, '97, and '98 and in 1998 they made more money than any wrestling company in history so obviously ad sales were not a problem. The problem was the bloated contracts Bischoff gave out. One guy cannot make 10 million per year etc....when PPV buys and attendance goes down.
You misunderstood again. Ad sales WERE a problem. Just because they made a profit does not mean they had full price ads. Death of WCW book points out that they still would have lost money (can't remember which year specifically, somewhere from 99-01) even if they paid the talent nothing.

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WCW was spending way more than they were taking in but they were a drop on the bucket in the Time Warner media conglomerate. Time Warner was involved in media, movies, sports, etc....When AOL merged with Time Warner they became even more insignificant. Turner was completely out of the picture. When the AOL stock dropped from 226 billion to 20 billion they started scrapping EVERYTHING. WCW, the Hawks, the Braves, the Thrashers, Philips Arena, so ad revenue or (lack of) had nothing to do with the sale of WCW.
Ads did have something to do with it. To reboot WCW, they would have to give them a TV contract. WCW would have less stars and was in a extreme downward spiral. They would have to make a multi-year commitment (otherwise why would Fuisent buy them) to something that was bleeding money. To something that doesn't pull in full ad revenue. To something they could replace and actually make money. It would have been risky to invest in WCW's future.

Also WCW lost between $60-$80 million in 2000. I don't give a shit how much AOLTW is making/losing, that is a gigantic red flag and no business person would allow that to continue. Ted did because he had a soft spot and was personally a billionaire.

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AOLTW would've had a financial stake in the company so any fee they would have had to pay Fusient would've been reimbursed iwhen WCW came back online. They also would have profited had WCW taken off. How do you know they couldn't get those names anymore? Bischoff had relationships with all the big names. In fact, they probably would've come back for half of what they made in WCW so it would'v saved Fusient a hell of a lot of money.
Nope. They would still have to pay WCW a TV contract. AOLTW offered a 50% buyout to remaining WCW stars after it ended (Hogan, Goldberg, Flair, etc.). They couldn't go to WWE without their contracts ending. DDP was the only one who accepted. He only did because he wanted to retire in WWE and knew he didn't have much time left. So your claim that they would have come back for half is completely asinine. WWE could offer them more once their contracts ended.

Yes, they would have profited if WCW took off. But there was no indication that it would do that anytime soon.

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Smart business decision? So you have a company you want to sell. You have one company offering 50 million, all they want you to do is keep the status quo. You already have WCW programming on TV. It's not costing you a dime to keep Nitro on air. Another company is offering 2.5 million. You would choose the 2.5?!?? I think you need a economics class.
Misunderstood once again. They saved money because they didn't need to pay a TV contract. That $50 million would have gone into a TV contract. THAT WOULD COSTS AOLTW MONEY.

This is why I keep saying to dig deeper. You keep looking at the surface level.

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Siegel would not have made or lost any money. It was AOL/Time Warner's money. He would be moved to a different division. He just did his friend a favor.
Or he did his fucking job. You think he could just go out and lose $80 million without consequences? You think that any rational company would allow that? Good lord.

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So Ted Turner being forced out of power in the AOL merger led to the death of WCW. Thank you for making my point for me,.
WCW died because no business is supposed to lose that much fucking money. Had they been making money, WCW would have survived. Once again, lack of critical thinking skills.
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  #29  
Old 08-16-2017, 06:41 PM
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You misunderstood again. Ad sales WERE a problem. Just because they made a profit does not mean they had full price ads. Death of WCW book points out that they still would have lost money (can't remember which year specifically, somewhere from 99-01) even if they paid the talent nothing.
And they would've lost money even if they had full priced ads so what's your damn point? OBVIOUSLY ad sales was not the only problem.

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Ads did have something to do with it. To reboot WCW, they would have to give them a TV contract. WCW would have less stars and was in a extreme downward spiral. They would have to make a multi-year commitment (otherwise why would Fuisent buy them) to something that was bleeding money. To something that doesn't pull in full ad revenue. To something they could replace and actually make money. It would have been risky to invest in WCW's future.
But a company that just a couple of years ago was making millions of dollars. Let's see I could either sell for a measly 2.5 mil and get nothing or I could invest in a company with the potential to generate tens of millions of dollars? I would take that risk.

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Nope. They would still have to pay WCW a TV contract. AOLTW offered a 50% buyout to remaining WCW stars after it ended (Hogan, Goldberg, Flair, etc.). They couldn't go to WWE without their contracts ending. DDP was the only one who accepted. He only did because he wanted to retire in WWE and knew he didn't have much time left. So your claim that they would have come back for half is completely asinine. WWE could offer them more once their contracts ended.
More money for more work. We know how grueling the WWE schedule was/is. The "top stars" simply would have waited till their TW contracts expired then joined Bischoff and Fusient.

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Yes, they would have profited if WCW took off. But there was no indication that it would do that anytime soon.
Speculation but the fact is just a few years ago WCW was raking in the profits, we probably would've said the same thing about the WWF in 1996 and look what happened. Making money is all about reward vs risk.

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Misunderstood once again. They saved money because they didn't need to pay a TV contract. That $50 million would have gone into a TV contract. THAT WOULD COSTS AOLTW MONEY.

This is why I keep saying to dig deeper. You keep looking at the surface level.
Where do you get that a TV contract costs 50 million?

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Or he did his fucking job. You think he could just go out and lose $80 million without consequences? You think that any rational company would allow that? Good lord.
You're an idiot dude. He didn't "lose" it. He rigged it so Fusient pulled out when the shows were cancelled leaving ONLY the WWE.

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WCW died because no business is supposed to lose that much fucking money. Had they been making money, WCW would have survived. Once again, lack of critical thinking skills
So bankrupt companies can't make a comeback? Maybe you should look up Apple.
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Old 08-16-2017, 07:25 PM
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There is a long part at the bottom that is VERY interesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makaveli31 View Post
And they would've lost money even if they had full priced ads so what's your damn point? OBVIOUSLY ad sales was not the only problem.
I KNOW THAT. I'm saying ads were part of the problem and why I would be timid to invest in WCW's future. However we originally got into the discussion about ads because you said WCW was generating huge ad money when they were not. They were drawing way less ad money than comparable products.

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But a company that just a couple of years ago was making millions of dollars. Let's see I could either sell for a measly 2.5 mil and get nothing or I could invest in a company with the potential to generate tens of millions of dollars? I would take that risk.
A company that had zero chance to even approach that kind of money in any shape or form for the foreseeable future. Do you honestly believe a company that just lost $80 million was worth investing in? So do I make a $2.5 million profit or do I invest in a company that just lost 80 million fucking dollars.

The only stupid thing about selling WCW instead of keeping it was they didn't even try to profit off DVD sales. Though that would've required a lot of work and they probably didn't think it would be worth it.

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More money for more work. We know how grueling the WWE schedule was/is. The "top stars" simply would have waited till their TW contracts expired then joined Bischoff and Fusient.
Because every top star joined TNA right away right? And those top stars that did join TNA made TNA a huge success right? You can understandably say that using TNA isn't a fair comparison. However to assume the big names that actually draw would join a smaller WCW for less money is asinine.

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Speculation but the fact is just a few years ago WCW was raking in the profits, we probably would've said the same thing about the WWF in 1996 and look what happened. Making money is all about reward vs risk.
They lost $80 million.

It was obvious WCW was relying on diminishing returns. They also didn't lose 80 fucking million dollars. That last one is kind of important. WWE lost around $6 million then but made a profit immediately the next year. They also didn't lose money in consecutive years. Vince McMahon had a long track record of success while Eric Bischoff had three years and failed twice immediately following those years.

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Where do you get that a TV contract costs 50 million?
WWE currently gets $200 million per year from theirs. WWE got around $90 million in 1999 (or 2000). WCW probably was paid in that same ballpark.

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You're an idiot dude. He didn't "lose" it. He rigged it so Fusient pulled out when the shows were cancelled leaving ONLY the WWE.
You're saying that it would have been smart to keep a company that had just lost and I can't emphasize this enough, $80 million. Not only that, but they will go in with a weaker roster and a guy who has failed twice (Bischoff). I would have thrown him into a volcano if he kept it.

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So bankrupt companies can't make a comeback? Maybe you should look up Apple.
You ever heard of the old saying, exception to the rule? When companies lose almost $100 million, they generally do not survive.

...and holy shit, I just found something very interesting. Fuisent's final offer was actually only $5 million. The rest of that number comes from WCW hitting certain benchmarks. Benchmarks that were probably unrealistic.

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It was only four years ago that World Championship Wrestling produced the top-rated show on basic cable and beat its main rival, the World Wresting Federation, on a weekly basis.
And when World Wrestling Federation Entertainment Inc. acquired WCW from Turner Broadcasting System Inc. in March -- after pounding it into submission in the ratings battle over the last few years -- news reports put the price tag at up to $20 million. That marked a big drop from the reported $75 million that Fusient Media Ventures had offered for WCW during January, in a deal that later fell apart.
As it turns out, the WWF -- which has seen its ratings for fall since it moved to new cable home TNN: The National Network -- only paid a measly $2.5 million for WCW, plus an additional $1.8 million in related costs, the company revealed in a recent earnings report.
That's $4.3 million in total: the same price that Los Angeles Dodgers outfielder Gary Sheffield was seeking for his Tampa home, the exact amount it recently cost to build a new air traffic control tower at Central Illinois Regional Airport, or the cost of a couple of Super Bowl commercials.
How did WCW's value fall from a reported $75 million offer to $4.3 million? The $75 million was a bogus number leaked by Turner executives "to save face," a source familiar with the deal said.
In reality, the source said, Fusient's original WCW offer in January was for $10 million, which included a guarantee that it would be allotted 5 percent of the primetime schedule on Turner Network Television and TBS Superstation for WCW programming.
Fusient agreed to pay up to an additional $65 million in seven years if WCW hit certain benchmarks, including increasing the value of the business to $1 billion, the source added.
Fusient later pulled its offer after it reviewed WCW's books, and made a second offer for WCW, which included no up-front money and an agreement to spend $5 million in advertising on properties owned by AOL Time Warner Inc. (Turner's parent company), a source said. Turner ended up taking WWF's offer.
TBS and Fusient executives declined to comment on the offer. All WWF president Stuart Snyder would say about the bargain price WWF paid for its longtime rival was, "It was the right number for both parties, and we've moved on."
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Last edited by therockiswwf : 08-16-2017 at 07:31 PM.
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