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  #1  
Old 08-09-2017, 02:39 AM
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Default Can Randy Orton be salvaged or vitalized?

Let's consider a few, indisputable facts about Randy Orton:-

1)He is one of the most phenomenally athletic wrestlers in history, what is usually called "gifted" or being a "natural".
2)The Evolution of his character began with being a cocky, arrogant protege of Ric Flair, a Legend Killer, to an insidious, fractious, volatile "viper", to an overprotected corporate champion with HHH/Authority, and then nothing.
3)He's been the world champion countless times, won the Rumble twice, MITB, feuded with HHH, Taker, Shawn, Cena, Batista, and turned heel and face. Basically, done everything.

However, it seems like all of that only serves as a curse, because, where do you go from there?

I actually am a fan, so I'm not saying he ought to change his moveset or something, he's good in the ring, we all know that.

But it feels like he's been around for so long, turned face or heel so many times, that vitality, vigour, and excitement seems to be lacking, not only in his persona/character, but in the person.

May be it's even unfair to blame him, because what could possibly stimulate or challenge him now, except for the Writers/Creative to come up with something new yet again?

And it's noteworthy that John Cena, who hasn't even changed his character and/or turned Heel once, let alone twice, still generates(even in an inveterate John Cena-hater like me) some sort of an interest, passion, or at least doesn't generate an indifference that Orton's presence seems to generate.

And it is THAT which bothers me, since I really like Orton, and want to appreciate his presence.

One of the factors about Cena is also that knowing his contributions, and his dedication to TV/Film, he is now a part-timer, and really only strives to engage in important feuds and matches. (Except the one-off match with Rusev, of course)

I should think it safe to say that many, if not everyone, weren't quite inspired by the protracted Orton-Wyatt feud, his WWE championship win, for some inexplicable reason. (And again, we aren't really blaming the man per se, or his in-ring expertise, but some indeterminate, inexplicable lack)

So I'll cease my ruminations and end by asking you:-

How do you feel about Randy Orton's career, portrayal and feuds from recent memory- excited, indifferent, or outraged?

Would you agree that some sort of a change is needed, that he is too precious to be a source of indifference, and lackluster feuds?

What would you do with his character or booking, at this point?

Last edited by RomanfreakinReigns : 08-09-2017 at 02:47 AM.
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  #2  
Old 08-09-2017, 05:31 AM
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Randy needs to give the fans a reason to care about him. Randy is crazy talented. He was born to be a pro wrestler. Too often though, especially in recent years, fans feel like he is just going through the motions and coasting on his past success and favorable reputation in the company to stay on top instead of actually trying to reinvent his stale persona and actually putting in the hard work that so many fans desire from these guys.

There are a lot of similarities between he and Cena that you pointed you, but there are key differences as well.

A lot of it comes down to what each guy is and was willing to do in ring. Yes, there was a time where Cena deserved the criticism of his five moves of doom and predictable matches. That isn't the case the last few years. John goes out almost each night and is determined to put on his best. He is willing to work with the other guy, play to their strengths, give them their moments. It's why a John Cena PPV match these days is rarely bad.

Orton though, hasn't been willing to go that extra mile. I'm not going to go so far as call him lazy, but he is content to just go out each night and put on passable matches. Rarely is a Randy Orton match bad, but let me ask you something. How many classic matches can you name that Orton had?

His booking the last few years hasn't helped. He has been around the title picture way too often. Remember the title match he had with Cena a few PPVs before Wrestlemania 30? I think that was at Royal Rumble. Anyway, the match the two had, as has been the case for the other 499 matches they have wrestled, was solid. The fans just didn't care because it was Cena vs. Orton again. Aside from too much time in the title picture, most of his storylines are uninspired. The Wyatt feud had promise and was interesting at times, if a little cartoonish, but the payoff sucked. Nearly every other feud has been almost a carbon copy of this feud with Rusev. Someone cuts a promo, Randy hits an RKO, they have uninspired matches in the middle of the show, and no one benefits.

There are things he could change and the writers could change to help him though. For one, stop having the announcers go absolute ape shit over each and every RKO and stop reminding us how each RKO is out of nowhere. I've always found it to be an overrated finisher, but most of the crowd enjoys it and it has provided some amazing moments over the years, but stop treating every single RKO like it's this sudden surprise move that no one saw coming. On that subject, stop hyping up signature moves that he relies on far too often. Before I go any further, I'm aware that every wrestler worth a damn ever has signature moves. It's been a staple of pro wrestling since almost the beginning and you need these moves to pop the crowd. The problem though, especially with the elevated DDT, is that it should be a devastating move that is used to leave guys down and out but he doesn't even try to consistently try to pin guys after. I also don't need Cole or JBL yelling about vintage Orton when he hits it. Every move is vintage Orton because he hasn't added a new move to his arsenal since 2002.

They also needs to have the announcers stop covering for how his mood dictates his in ring performance. I'll touch on it again soon, but Randy has reputations of having a bad temper and often not being invested in feuds. When he is mad at opponents for various reasons, he is a right dick in the ring and is overly stiff and the announcers play it up to his Apex Predator persona. When he isn't invested he often works a super slow and boring style and the announcers cover it by calling it methodical. When he does this, it sucks the energy out of the crowd.

Here is another issue, and I will preface this by saying I'm aware he has been at this for fifteen years and he does have shoulder problems, but Orton almost never takes solid bumps. I'm not asking the guy to go out and pull some Mick Foley type spots, but he really really needs to not over protect himself for every bump.

He also has that reputation of a bit of a hot head due to his actions earlier in his career and wrestling fans never forget.

So yeah, a lot of salvaging Randy falls on his hyper mobile shoulders. He needs to care and be invested and not act bored almost each night.

Oh and why doesn't he do that sexy drop kick anymore?
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  #3  
Old 08-09-2017, 10:05 AM
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Like most everything wrong with this company, it falls back on his booking in my opinion.

Ever since the start of this decade, so about seven years, he's been in this weird state of limbo, he'll go from being World Champion to being in mid-card feuds and putting over guys like Wade Barrett and Cody Rhodes. It's been a constant promotion/demotion thing for years now. It's not like he's remained a constant at the top of the card. It's been a long time since you could really consider him to be the #2 in the company behind Cena.

He has no set role, it's hard to get behind someone like that and I also think that as a performer, it's hard to really be invested in that. They have no problem giving him the WWE Championship, yet they also have no problem with him taking the L to Jinder Mahal three times in a row. They don't keep him very protected, you really get the feeling that he could beat anyone on the roster or lose to anyone on the roster.

It's unique in a way, because I can't imagine them doing that with a Cena or Reigns, etc. but just because it's unique, doesn't mean it's a good thing.

I've always had a soft spot for Orton, as a kid/young teen he was my favorite so of course I still want to see him do well, but I really don't know what can be changed at this point. They'll never change his move-set, and even if they changed his character, there really ISN'T that big of a difference between heel Randy and face Randy. He carries himself almost the same way.

Just... be more consistent with him. Let us and hell, let him know what he actually is.
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  #4  
Old 08-09-2017, 10:07 AM
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I'll just state the obvious and say that Randy Orton needs to be a heel. Maybe not for the rest of his career, but for the foreseeable future. He still gets a decent crowd reaction most nights as a babyface, but it's clear as day that he is bored out of his mind and so are most of us. I'm a fan of him in the ring, his move set and finisher are perfectly fine, but his character (or lack thereof) is atrocious. When he joined the Wyatt Family, even though we knew it would be short-lived, it was the most interested I had been in him in as long as I can remember. Remember when he burned down Wyatt's shack and people were asking who was supposed to be the heel? Well, it should have been Orton. The story should have been Orton growing jealous of Wyatt's title win and getting inside of Luke Harper's head to make him do his dirty work and turn on Wyatt. Obviously in the PG era there is only so far you can take his character, but I really enjoyed him when he was the sick, sadistic one who wouldn't think twice about punting Vince in the head or kissing Stephanie on the lips while Triple H was handcuffed to the ropes.

Can his career be salvaged? Absolutely. I'm not expecting miracles and come up with completely new material in the twilight of his run like Jericho, but I'd be satisfied with them just returning him to what he was for starters. So they can keep him on the path he's on where they just throw him on the card of a ppv just to kind of have him there, like they're doing with him and Rusev at Summerslam, but where will that lead? There's still Kevin Owens and Baron Corbin that he hasn't been in a program with. He and Owens could be interesting, but honestly it'll only be because Owens himself is interesting and would likely carry the feud. Depending on how the superstar shakeup goes, you could potentially put him up against Samoa Joe, Braun Strowman, maybe even The Miz. Samoa Joe is the only one of those that intrigues me tbh.

Or they can turn him heel where he feels comfortable in his own skin and keep him heel. I think much like with Big Show, you can only have a guy flip back and forth so many times before you lose all shock factor and nobody cares anymore. They're lucky they haven't reached that point with Orton yet, the fans do still react, but they shouldn't take it for granted. As a heel, there's many more options open that they could explore. Again, depending on what the superstar shakeup has in store, you could potentially put him up against guys like AJ Styles, Finn Balor, Roman Reigns, Shinsuke Nakamura, maybe Seth Rollins again with him playing the face this time, possibly even Luke Harper if they'd get their heads out of their asses and put him back on tv. I wouldn't even be opposed to him targetting Jason Jordan in defiance towards Kurt Angle, building a story between them if/when Kurt decides to step back in the ring. I think if they just turn him heel where he belongs, the rest will work itself out. SDL is lacking top heels. Kevin Owens is great, but after him there's a big drop off imo to Mahal, Corbin and Rusev. Orton could automatically compete with Owens for that spot of top heel on the show. There's just way more they can do with him and it will come across to the fans that he's enjoying his role more and help keep us tuned in.
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Old 08-09-2017, 10:15 AM
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Did anyone ever think that Randy Orton is a poor man's Brock Lesnar? That he is there for the check, and could care less about anything else? Look, he knows that he is well liked in the back. He knows that he made a shitload of money to live off of. He saw his father work until he was a walking cripple. So, short of jobbing to Enzo Amore, he will go with the flow with minimal effort. Orton does not need to do much else.
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Old 08-09-2017, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by stingray11214 View Post
Did anyone ever think that Randy Orton is a poor man's Brock Lesnar? That he is there for the check, and could care less about anything else? Look, he knows that he is well liked in the back. He knows that he made a shitload of money to live off of. He saw his father work until he was a walking cripple. So, short of jobbing to Enzo Amore, he will go with the flow with minimal effort. Orton does not need to do much else.
I'd say, put that into his gimmick. And have him hate all the "Indy smark favorites" and start targeting them. They kinda were going that way when he was the Authority's choice as champion over Bryan. That's probably the last time he was interesting. Go back to that a bit, have him hate the fans, maybe he starts teaming up with Corbin and they brutalize fan favorites for awhile.
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Old 08-09-2017, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Rainbow Yaz View Post
There are a lot of similarities between he and Cena that you pointed you, but there are key differences as well.

A lot of it comes down to what each guy is and was willing to do in ring. Yes, there was a time where Cena deserved the criticism of his five moves of doom and predictable matches. That isn't the case the last few years. John goes out almost each night and is determined to put on his best. He is willing to work with the other guy, play to their strengths, give them their moments. It's why a John Cena PPV match these days is rarely bad.

Orton though, hasn't been willing to go that extra mile. I'm not going to go so far as call him lazy, but he is content to just go out each night and put on passable matches. Rarely is a Randy Orton match bad, but let me ask you something. How many classic matches can you name that Orton had?
Absolutely. There are key differences between Cena and Orton, which did occur to me, just that I didn't include them in the OP immediately.

It's sort of astounding when one considers these facts:-

Between Cena and Orton and their common feuds,

Cena had an Epic feud early in his career with Edge, while Orton only managed to have a few decent matches with Edge over the years, brief feuds, which were ALL won by Edge.

Cena's feud/matches with Punk from MITB and Summerslam are nothing short of momentous and legendary, while Orton's are just two steps below.

And it's true, one cannot come up with that many classic Orton matches. He's had good matches, but not that many great ones. I think his most memorable and excellent work has been with Cena, HHH and Undertaker.

Whereas with Cena, the match with Lesnar from 2012, the one with Taker from 2003, the ones with Punk of course, and the one with AJ Styles from Summerslam, are absolute classics.

And yet one might be compelled to think Orton's the superior or gifted athlete. More agile and what not.

Last edited by RomanfreakinReigns : 08-09-2017 at 11:59 AM.
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Old 08-09-2017, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RomanfreakinReigns View Post
Let's consider a few, indisputable facts about Randy Orton:-

1)He is one of the most phenomenally athletic wrestlers in history, what is usually called "gifted" or being a "natural".
2)The Evolution of his character began with being a cocky, arrogant protege of Ric Flair, a Legend Killer, to an insidious, fractious, volatile "viper", to an overprotected corporate champion with HHH/Authority, and then nothing.
3)He's been the world champion countless times, won the Rumble twice, MITB, feuded with HHH, Taker, Shawn, Cena, Batista, and turned heel and face. Basically, done everything.

However, it seems like all of that only serves as a curse, because, where do you go from there?

I actually am a fan, so I'm not saying he ought to change his moveset or something, he's good in the ring, we all know that.

But it feels like he's been around for so long, turned face or heel so many times, that vitality, vigour, and excitement seems to be lacking, not only in his persona/character, but in the person.

May be it's even unfair to blame him, because what could possibly stimulate or challenge him now, except for the Writers/Creative to come up with something new yet again?

And it's noteworthy that John Cena, who hasn't even changed his character and/or turned Heel once, let alone twice, still generates(even in an inveterate John Cena-hater like me) some sort of an interest, passion, or at least doesn't generate an indifference that Orton's presence seems to generate.

And it is THAT which bothers me, since I really like Orton, and want to appreciate his presence.

One of the factors about Cena is also that knowing his contributions, and his dedication to TV/Film, he is now a part-timer, and really only strives to engage in important feuds and matches. (Except the one-off match with Rusev, of course)

I should think it safe to say that many, if not everyone, weren't quite inspired by the protracted Orton-Wyatt feud, his WWE championship win, for some inexplicable reason. (And again, we aren't really blaming the man per se, or his in-ring expertise, but some indeterminate, inexplicable lack)

So I'll cease my ruminations and end by asking you:-

How do you feel about Randy Orton's career, portrayal and feuds from recent memory- excited, indifferent, or outraged?

Would you agree that some sort of a change is needed, that he is too precious to be a source of indifference, and lackluster feuds?

What would you do with his character or booking, at this point?
Actually, I am disputing the idea that he is one of the most amazing athletes. No, he is not. Far from it. Why is he so amazing? What aerial moves does he possess? He has a limited move set.
He was given multiple chances to run with the World Title and he has failed repeatedly.
Also, he is the MOST BORING wrestler on the roster for MANY years.
Whenever Randy Orton is on my screen, its a good time for a snack or bathroom break. HE SUCKS!
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Old 08-09-2017, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeyYo View Post
Actually, I am disputing the idea that he is one of the most amazing athletes. No, he is not. Far from it. Why is he so amazing? What aerial moves does he possess? He has a limited move set.
He was given multiple chances to run with the World Title and he has failed repeatedly.
Also, he is the MOST BORING wrestler on the roster for MANY years.
Whenever Randy Orton is on my screen, its a good time for a snack or bathroom break. HE SUCKS!
LOL. So if you don't do a bunch of flips, you're not a great athlete? Wow.

He's athletic and crisp with all of the moves he does. His moveset is fine for people that actually like pro wrestling. You seem to be one of those fans who needs a bunch of nonsensical flips and high spots every 10 seconds, multiple finishers hit and kicked out of, and at least 5 false finishes and 3 "this is awesome" chants for it to be a "good match".

You could always just go to YouTube and watch people's video game matches that they upload to get that type of match.
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Old 08-09-2017, 01:54 PM
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The value of Randy Orton can be seen clearly in the way his match with Rusev was basically announced out of the blue with no real build of any sort. It screamed of needing to get him on the card due to casual fans liking Randy Orton.

Also, threads like these keep popping up ever so often during my time on the forums with regards to Orton and how to make him interesting again.
Really, he'd be better off just appearing every now and then a la Chris Jericho to feud with an exciting up and comer and then leaving. He has been in WWE just as long as Cena but with much less protection than his eternal rival. With both him and Cena, it is quite clear that WWE recognize that there is a changing of the guard happening and the booking of both guys reflects that over the past year or so and thus, I highly doubt he will really be changing much with his character going forward(wouldnt be surprised if he takes some time off after SummerSlam also).
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