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  #21  
Old 05-16-2017, 10:29 PM
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Its not about wins or who they have on the teams, its about championship calibre teams. Jordan had to wait out the celtics and the Lakers before beating teams that werent as good
Well the reason why they weren't championship teams was because of Jordan. He dominated for a decade. With LeBron there was more back and forth. If LeBron had been undefeated in the Finals like MJ neither the Spurs nor Warriors would have titles. That's what happened to the Knicks, Pacers, Suns, Jazz etc....you can't tell me with a straight face that the Knicks of the early to mid '90's or the Jazz were not championship-caliber teams. They were consistently in the discussion as far as championship contenders of their era they just ran in to Michael.
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Old 05-17-2017, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by A11oftheLights View Post
Its not about wins or who they have on the teams, its about championship calibre teams. Jordan had to wait out the celtics and the Lakers before beating teams that werent as good. Lebron has beating the Celtics, the Warriors and the Spurs. His only ring that wasnt against a championship team was the Thunder. On top of this Lebron should have been the first unanimous mvp (steph shouldnt have even been a unanimous mvp anyway) and he would be if some bum journalist from boston wasnt salty and voted for carmelo
In your last post you said he never faced any good teams though, and thats just false. And I would consider those Blazers, Suns, and Jazz teams championship caliber. The Blazers made it to WCF in 90 and 91 and to the Finals before facing Jordan the very next year, the Suns made it to the WCF twice in 88 and 89 they just couldn't get over the hump because they were lacking that one MVP caliber superstar, Charles Barkley was literally the missing piece to that team that season. Utah also made it to the WCF 3 times between 92-96 before finally making it to their first one. As I said in one of my post I can sort of agree with the Lakers even though Magic and Worthy were still relatively young and still playing great basketball, but that wasn't Showtime. And those Sonic teams were good and even made it to the WCF in 93, but they were inconsistent and had a tendency to shrink in the playoffs.

And as far as Jordan having to wait for the Celtics and Lakers to get old before he started winning, that same argument can pretty much be made for LeBron to a degree. That Spurs team that he beat wasn't as good as the 05 or 07 Spurs. Duncan, Parker, and Ginobili were all past 30 and their primes (with the exception of maybe Parker) and Kahwi was far from the player that he is today and was just in his second season. And those Celtic teams were just as old if not older than that Piston team that Jordan beat.
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  #23  
Old 05-17-2017, 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Makaveli31 View Post
Well the reason why they weren't championship teams was because of Jordan. He dominated for a decade. With LeBron there was more back and forth. If LeBron had been undefeated in the Finals like MJ neither the Spurs nor Warriors would have titles. That's what happened to the Knicks, Pacers, Suns, Jazz etc....you can't tell me with a straight face that the Knicks of the early to mid '90's or the Jazz were not championship-caliber teams. They were consistently in the discussion as far as championship contenders of their era they just ran in to Michael.
Agreed though the Spurs already had 2 titles before LeBron even came into the league. And to be fair to LeBron there's a good chance he may have beaten Golden State in 2015 if he had Kyrie and Love for that series. That being said I guess it's only fair to acknowledge if not for the Draymond Green suspension and injuries to Bogut and Iggy the Warriors probably win it all last year. Anyway it goes. Anyway it goes if you take away all of the injuries and that suspension I still feel it would be 1-1 with a potential tiebreaker in the Finals.

I digress though, I have to agree with you about the Knicks and Jazz. As a Rockets fan I can tell you that New York probably wins it all in 94 if Olajuwon doesn't block Starks shot at the end of Game 6 and Starks didn't lay an egg in Game 7, and don't even get me started on the battles we had with Utah and that shot Stockton hit against us in Game 6 of the WCF to eliminate us
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  #24  
Old 06-07-2017, 06:53 PM
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I mean, Lebron came into the league 3-4 years younger than Jordan. He's going to play longer, and therefore he will pass him in some categories and accomplishments. He already has in some categories.

As great as he is, that doesn't make him the better player. He's nowhere near the scorer that Mike was. He doesn't have nearly he late game offensive heroics that Mike had. To me it comes down to him not being nearly as good of a shooter off the dribble as Jordan. Mike could bang that pull-up jumper at any time. Lebron doesn't have that.
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  #25  
Old 06-07-2017, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by A11oftheLights View Post
Its not about wins or who they have on the teams, its about championship calibre teams. Jordan had to wait out the celtics and the Lakers before beating teams that werent as good. Lebron has beating the Celtics, the Warriors and the Spurs. His only ring that wasnt against a championship team was the Thunder. On top of this Lebron should have been the first unanimous mvp (steph shouldnt have even been a unanimous mvp anyway) and he would be if some bum journalist from boston wasnt salty and voted for carmelo
You're ignoring that Jordan didn't "wait out" the Lakers....he beat them for his first chip. Also beat two time champion Detroit along the way.

So yeah, none of them had a "Spurs like" comeback where they retooled around 2-3 players with the same coach and won more championships 7 years later. I don't think that's a strike to hold against MJ. It's also not a strike against MJ that the Rockets never got back to the finals after winning 2 while MJ was playing baseball. It's not MJs fault those teams got old.

Other than that, the Bulls were winning it every year so how could they even get the chance to play another champion in the playoffs? There WERENT other champions left in the league.

It's not like they were beating bums. Those Portland and Phoenix teams were really, really good in the first 3 peat. Seattle too. Those teams were all better than 2011 Dallas that Lebron took an L too, and probably 2012 OKC too.

Last edited by LBGetBack : 06-07-2017 at 07:03 PM.
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  #26  
Old 06-07-2017, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by LBGetBack View Post
You're ignoring that Jordan didn't "wait out" the Lakers....he beat them for his first chip. Also beat two time champion Detroit along the way.

So yeah, none of them had a "Spurs like" comeback where they retooled around 2-3 players with the same coach and won more championships 7 years later. I don't think that's a strike to hold against MJ. It's also not a strike against MJ that the Rockets never got back to the finals after winning 2 while MJ was playing baseball. It's not MJs fault those teams got old.

Other than that, the Bulls were winning it every year so how could they even get the chance to play another champion in the playoffs? There WERENT other champions left in the league.

It's not like they were beating bums. Those Portland and Phoenix teams were really, really good in the first 3 peat. Seattle too. Those teams were all better than 2011 Dallas that Lebron took an L too, and probably 2012 OKC too.
Everything you have provided there is subjective. Those portland, phoenix and sonics teams would all be ranked lower than the mavs team lebron lost to because the mavs are a champion team so objectively they are better. It's all irrelevant anyway because chips are team prizes and therefore pointless in determining best player
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  #27  
Old 06-08-2017, 12:17 AM
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I think tonight laid all questions to rest....LeBron had a chance to put Golden State away at home and close the series to 2-1 but fell way short in the last 1:30 minutes. I hate it when he drives and dishes out but especially during crunch time. No one can stop LeBron when he takes it to the basket. It's either a slam, lay up, or foul. Why he continues to shoot fadeaways or dish it out is beyond me. The last 90 seconds sums it up. LeBron passes to Korver who misses....KD comes down and cooly drills a three. Game Set Match. After watching tonight's game KD is more MJ than LeBron

Last edited by Makaveli31 : 06-08-2017 at 12:26 AM.
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  #28  
Old 06-08-2017, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by A11oftheLights View Post
Everything you have provided there is subjective. Those portland, phoenix and sonics teams would all be ranked lower than the mavs team lebron lost to because the mavs are a champion team so objectively they are better. It's all irrelevant anyway because chips are team prizes and therefore pointless in determining best player
Umm....no, everything I said is not subjective. The part about Phoenix, Seattle, and Portland is. The rest was fact.

No, Dallas winning a title in 2011 doesn't mean that team was better than '93 Phoenix. That makes zero sense. They didn't play against each other. Of course my opinion is subjective. I also watched the league closely at both times, so it's certainly not an uninformed opinion.

Saying that there were literally no champions available for the Bulls to beat is not subjective. Those Lakers, Celtics, and Pistons teams were broken up by age, retirement, illness/injury, etc. after the Bulls first title(when they beat them all) basically. The strong teams in the league from 91-98 : Knicks, Pacers, Magic, Suns, Blazers, Sonics, etc. never broke through because they couldn't beat the Bulls.

SMH at giving Bron credit for beating champions that became champions by beating Lebron in the first place. What kind of sense does that make?
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  #29  
Old 06-08-2017, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by LBGetBack View Post
I mean, Lebron came into the league 3-4 years younger than Jordan. He's going to play longer, and therefore he will pass him in some categories and accomplishments. He already has in some categories.

As great as he is, that doesn't make him the better player. He's nowhere near the scorer that Mike was. He doesn't have nearly he late game offensive heroics that Mike had. To me it comes down to him not being nearly as good of a shooter off the dribble as Jordan. Mike could bang that pull-up jumper at any time. Lebron doesn't have that.
So your argument is that Michael Jordan is better than LeBron because he was better at one aspect of one facet of the game? That's...interesting...

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Originally Posted by LBGetBack View Post
You're ignoring that Jordan didn't "wait out" the Lakers....he beat them for his first chip.
He beat a Lakers team with no Abdul-Jabbar, who was retired by the time the Bulls defeated the Lakers. Let's not forget that.

Quote:
Also beat two time champion Detroit along the way.
Yes...after losing to the Pistons and the Celtics for several years and only winning after those teams started to get older. Also, this comment is interesting, based on something you say later...

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It's not like they were beating bums. Those Portland and Phoenix teams were really, really good in the first 3 peat.
The Bulls had 10 more wins than Portland. I don't know if I'd go as far as to say Portland was "really, really good".
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Seattle too.
The same goes for Seattle. I don't think many people expected them to defeat the Bulls that season.
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Those teams were all better than 2011 Dallas that Lebron took an L too, and probably 2012 OKC too.
I'd disagree. Phoenix, perhaps, but I think Dallas was better than Portland or Seattle. Not sure about Utah.

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Originally Posted by LBGetBack View Post
SMH at giving Bron credit for beating champions that became champions by beating Lebron in the first place. What kind of sense does that make?
As much sense as you crediting Jordan for becoming a champion by beating the Pistons?
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Originally Posted by LBGetBack View Post
You're ignoring that Jordan didn't "wait out" the Lakers....he beat them for his first chip. Also beat two time champion Detroit along the way.
It's amazing how quickly you gave credit to Jordan for beating the Pistons, but was shaking your head at giving LeBron credit for "beating champions that became champions by beating Lebron in the first place."

I think your hypocrisy has exposed your bias.
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  #30  
Old 06-08-2017, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
So your argument is that Michael Jordan is better than LeBron because he was better at one aspect of one facet of the game? That's...interesting...

He beat a Lakers team with no Abdul-Jabbar, who was retired by the time the Bulls defeated the Lakers. Let's not forget that.

Yes...after losing to the Pistons and the Celtics for several years and only winning after those teams started to get older. Also, this comment is interesting, based on something you say later...

The Bulls had 10 more wins than Portland. I don't know if I'd go as far as to say Portland was "really, really good".

The same goes for Seattle. I don't think many people expected them to defeat the Bulls that season.
I'd disagree. Phoenix, perhaps, but I think Dallas was better than Portland or Seattle. Not sure about Utah.

As much sense as you crediting Jordan for becoming a champion by beating the Pistons?


It's amazing how quickly you gave credit to Jordan for beating the Pistons, but was shaking your head at giving LeBron credit for "beating champions that became champions by beating Lebron in the first place."

I think your hypocrisy has exposed your bias.
1. No. My argument is that is where Jordan has a huge edge and it's what put him over the top.(because every other area is close....though late career MJ got a big edge in low post play too) It's why he was the guy at the end of the games, and it's why Lebron is not....as last night showed yet again. If Lebron can't get to the rack, he ain't beating you at the end of the game. He doesn't trust his jumper enough.....give him credit for being smart and not jacking them up anyway. But MJ was lethal with the game on the line because he could beat you in any type of way. You couldn't play off of him.

2. So? Kareem was on his last legs in the '88 championship. '91 Vlade Divac was better than Kareem was in his last few seasons anyway. They'd also added Sam Perkins.

3. Only winning after he got some help when Pippen and Grant developed into good players you mean.

4. So? Portland was 57-25. I guess Cleveland wasn't "really good" last year because GS won so many more regular season games? You're making no sense. Portland had a squad in the early 90s.

5. Of course nobody expected Seattle to beat the Bulls....because the Bulls were one of the greatest teams of all time that season. Again....make some sense. That Seattle team was good enough to win a 'chip in a lot of other seasons.

6. You just downplayed 1992 Portland because they were 57-25....the same record as Dallas. You downplayed Seattle because nobody expected them to beat the Bulls. Guess what? Nobody was talking about Dallas winning the chip in 2011. LOL. When did you start watching basketball? Curious.

7. Detroit went through legendary Boston and LA teams. Yeah, they beat Chicago when they were nobody....because all they had was Jordan. Lebron took L's to Dallas, Boston, SA, in his prime with Wade and Bosh for 2 of those finals L's. Not even close to the same thing. MJ didn't take any L's once he had help, unless you want to count '95 - the year he came back at the end of the season and was still rusty after almost a 2 year layoff.

Last edited by LBGetBack : 06-08-2017 at 05:37 PM.
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