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  #11  
Old 05-03-2017, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Fire Marshall Bill View Post
I'm going to do the short version, because I've gone over this on here before.

No. And it's not even close for me. I don't even have to look at stats. I could go on about how Jordan would literally get triple teamed for most of a game and still score 30. I could go on about how the game is so much different now and James doesn't have to worry about getting hurt nearly as often for even coming into the paint. I could reiterate some of your more obvious points about Finals (which I would say it's unfair to argue Jordan not going to 6 straight considering his absence from the game).

What I know is a guy who crowned himself King James couldn't hack it with his people so he left them to go play with 2 of the best in the league. Even when he was there he couldn't pull off 100% in the Finals. He's a great player who I also respect as an athlete. And what he helped do for Cleveland last year was awesome, but what he did first was just plain wrong. And the manner he did it in just made it that much worse. I've seen people argue he had the right to leave if he wanted (free agency) and that "The Decision" raised money for charity, etc. It doesn't change the fact that it instantly made him one of the most hated athletes on the planet. It doesn't change the fact that "The Chosen One" basically left his hometown, when he was initially supposed to be their hero who delivered a championship, with 2 middle fingers raised in the air. It showed, to me, that he does not have the heart of a champion.
In all fairness, his performance in the NBA Finals should erase any doubt that LeBron didn't/doesn't have the "heart of a champion." To come back from down 3-1 (a feat never seen in the NBA Finals before) to a team that had just won last year's Finals, set the record for most wins in a regular season, and had the unanimous MVP on the court is pretty impressive. Throw in the fact that he also lead both teams in the 5 major categories (points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks) and any question about his heart was answered during those 7 games.

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But because Durant has now become the new villain; everyone seems to be okay with what Lebron did, and that was change the NBA for life. The dude has proven he can't win it all by himself.
But that goes for every superstar in the league from LeBron to Kobe to Jordan to even older greats like Wilt and Bill Russell. Only player who could've maybe used that argument would've been Westbrook of this season had OKC won the championship. Everybody needs somebody else great in order to win a championship.

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If it isn't him joining superstars to create a super team, it's him getting players that are looking to do a Durant and just go to the team that beats ya (Ray Allen). Lebron has literally gone from having to do it all himself to hoping his team mates show up so they can win. The Cavs aren't even the first seed in the east this year. I know that means fuck all but could you imagine Jordan not finishing at the top with Rodman and Pippen? Jordan's team was out making history while Lebron is out resting because he doesn't give a shit about the first 82 games. That can be fair enough, but when comparing the two you have to acknowledge that Jordan never rested no matter when it was.
Quite possibly because we've deemed the regular season almost meaningless. The Warriors had a historic season last year and more than likely won't get brought up unless it's brought up as a trivia question, another team gets close to breaking that record, and because there's more emphasis on what you do in the playoffs rather than in the regular season. The quote a lot of people were using this offseason was "It don't mean a thing if you ain't got that ring" so forget what so and so does from October to May, wake me up when it matters. In my eyes, that's why KD left. It gave him the best opportunity to be a major part of a team that could win a ring while making max money. I'll acknowledge that Jordan never rested but it's not like James is going through the motions when averaging 26+ points and nearly 9 rebounds and assists a game when he steps on the floor.

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Originally Posted by Khalifa View Post
There is a clear difference between lebrons team and Jordan's team. Lebron made his team while the Bulls made Jordan's team. Jordan didn't leave and speak to 2 other superstars in the league (Chris Paul was rumoured to be in on it as well so that'd make 3 superstars) and say look let's go here and win a ring. Lebron did do that. Rodman came to the bulls and I know Jordan and Pippen had a bit of a rally for him to come but it wasn't fucking decided 2 years before it happened like Lebron, Bosh and Wade (I said fucking because it still annoys me, not to try and prove a point to you Phenom). Jordan would never do that. Pippen was basically drafted to the bulls (traded on draft night) so it was mostly pure luck for Jordan. Well kind of anyways. It took a hell of a lot of skill for MJ and the boys but it was lucky that the pieces reached their potential and all meshed together. Lebron never got lucky, he chose. Lebron gave up on his team (fair enough they were trash but still) and when they got some decent players again (Irving, Thompson, waiters were all top 4 picks, they also had wiggins coming in as well) he thought maybe these guys can help me bring a championship home.

As far as I'm concerened Jordan never chose his team mates and that's why his rings are more credible than James.
So if Wade and Bosh were to go to Cleveland through the wheeling and dealing of David Griffin instead of James and Bosh making the move to Miami, would that make his two titles any more credible or would we still be using the same argument that LeBron couldn't do it without help? Because, I'm not convinced that the people who don't want LeBron near the Jordan comparison wouldn't try to find a way to say Wade and Bosh won those championships and not LeBron in a similar way they try to say that Irving was the biggest reason that the Cavs won last year.

At the end of the day, I'm still taking Jordan over LeBron if given the first pick in a fantast draft but LeBron is much closer to the legacy of Michael Jordan than people want to admit.
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  #12  
Old 05-03-2017, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Fire Marshall Bill View Post
Anyway, as I stated in my first post, I've debated this enough. If Sly can't change my mind, you can't.
It's not about you changing your mind, just getting you to see why you're wrong.

Let's ignore for a moment the difficulty in comparing two different types of players who played two different positions in two different eras and pretend there can be a valid argument.

If you take Michael Jordan's six championships, which are team accomplishments, out of the equation, by what metric can you claim Jordan is better than LeBron? He wasn't a better (or more versatile) defender or a better ball handler. He was a better scorer (though with a lower shooting percentage), but not nearly as good of a passer or rebounder. And, simply put, he wasn't as good of a teammate as LeBron.

So when you take the ONE team accomplishment out of the equation, how can you say Jordan was better? The fact is if the roles had been reversed, if LeBron had come before Jordan and Jordan had grown up in the 24/7 social media era, Jordan would never be as heralded as he is today and LeBron would be the ghost everyone tries to catch. Jordan's gambling and womanizing would have been far more prominent in the headlines, his merchandising would not be revolutionary and the Bulls wouldn't have been able to put a quality team around him.

They, along with Wilt and possibly Kareem, are the greatest basketball players ever. But if you want to ignore the difficulties in comparing them and do so anyways, there's just not any argument which can be made to support Jordan over LeBron, aside from pointing to the accomplishment of 12 guys, numerous coaches and front office personnel. And that's not really the best way to compare individuals.
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Originally Posted by Khalifa View Post
There is a clear difference between lebrons team and Jordan's team. Lebron made his team while the Bulls made Jordan's team. Jordan didn't leave and speak to 2 other superstars in the league (Chris Paul was rumoured to be in on it as well so that'd make 3 superstars) and say look let's go here and win a ring. Lebron did do that.

...

As far as I'm concerened Jordan never chose his team mates and that's why his rings are more credible than James.
So what you're saying is that Jordan is better than LeBron because the early 90s Bulls front office was better than the mid-00s Cavs front office, and because people actually want to play with LeBron and people didn't want to play with Jordan?

And this sounds like a logical argument to you?
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  #13  
Old 05-16-2017, 01:24 AM
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Lebron is better or will be better. Jordan never beat a good team. He couldnt get through the celtics and he couldnt get around the pistons. Beat a weak lakers before beating teams that werent championship calibre teams (you can say they werent championship teams becaause they werent good enough to beat jordan and the bulls but end of the day they werent championship teams) meanwhile Lebron has beaten the spurs dynasty, the warriors, the celtics and a thunder side that will have had at least 3 hall of famers on it. If he does it again this year there isnt even a case to be answered, there will be daylight behind Lebron and the only thing that would keep it close would be nostalgia. People cant hack it that someone is destroying their childhood and they hat on it instead of sitting back and enjoying greatness
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  #14  
Old 05-16-2017, 05:34 AM
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I appreciate your opinion but don't act like Jordan ever did it all by himself either. As a matter of fact, I'd say when comparing the two when they didn't have other good teammates to play with LeBron would be better than Jordan. Do you know why? In the 06-07 season, LeBron took a Cavs team where the next best player was Zydrunas Ilgauskas to the Finals. Jordan never ever even made it past the Pistons until after Pippen had already become a 2 time all star. Also, let's not forget that Jordan also had other players on his team like the best 3 pt shooter in the league at that time in Horace Grant and the greatest percentage 3 pt shooter of all time in Steve Kerr. Don't sit there and act like Jordan didn't have help or do you not consider a team with a core of Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman a super team?
Not to take anything away from LeBron but that year he made it to the Finals the East was pretty weak. He pretty much had a cakewalk to the Eastern Conference Finals playing against a Wizards team without Arenas and Jamison and the Nets that was a .500 team with an aging Kidd and Carter along with an injury prone Jefferson and a bunch of scrub players. And even that Pistons team was a shell of their former selves, losing Ben Wallace in free agency and Larry Brown leaving for New York. Also the Cavs were second in the East that year right behind only the Pistons and had a top 5 defense. Don't get me wrong I feel that LeBron may have took one of the worst supporting cast to the Finals along with Iverson and Olajuwon but at the same time I think it's important to look at the level of competition.
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  #15  
Old 05-16-2017, 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by A11oftheLights View Post
Lebron is better or will be better. Jordan never beat a good team. He couldnt get through the celtics and he couldnt get around the pistons. Beat a weak lakers before beating teams that werent championship calibre teams (you can say they werent championship teams becaause they werent good enough to beat jordan and the bulls but end of the day they werent championship teams) meanwhile Lebron has beaten the spurs dynasty, the warriors, the celtics and a thunder side that will have had at least 3 hall of famers on it. If he does it again this year there isnt even a case to be answered, there will be daylight behind Lebron and the only thing that would keep it close would be nostalgia. People cant hack it that someone is destroying their childhood and they hat on it instead of sitting back and enjoying greatness
Ok your going to far in terms of saying he's never beat a good team. The Suns, Sonics, and Jazz were all 60 plus win teams during those years they went to the Finals with Barkley and Malone being MVP's of those teams and Payton being the DPOY. I can sort of agree with the Lakers but they weren't weak, a shell of their former selves, yes but they still had the second best record in the West and Magic was second in MVP voting that year behind only Jordan, same withe Drexler in 92. And also Jordan swept the Pistons in 91 and may have beaten them the year before that if Pippen wasn't dealing with concussions
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  #16  
Old 05-16-2017, 08:36 AM
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Because I'm on my phone and I'm too lazy to delete something that would take 5 seconds and just quote the quotes, I will just go @.

First @ SlyFox: Before I answer; I would say it's actually the opposite, being able to bring in those guys and then the role players isn't an easy task. Great job by the front office but it does reflect on Lebron. No credibility for the US team running wild on crap teams. While that is in a different ball park altogether, the point is that if you just join up with the best players to win titles, willingly, how can you take the glory for it.

@ Franchise.

First quote: You're right, you can't win titles without another great player on your team 99 times out of 100, but the difference is Lebron chose his. Kobe wasn't guaranteed Shaq/Pau, Duncan wasn't guaranteed Parker/Manu/Leonard and Jordan wasn't guaranteed Pippen.

Second quote: True, and I agree but KD will never in the best at his position talks because of his possible rings at Warriors. You can have rings but I can list so many players that have rings but weren't the reason for that ring. Every series baring the Mavs one (maybe the series when Spurs went off as welll) that he has lost he has been a lot better and really would've been better wins than all his other rings other than last years.

Third quote: 100% they woulda been more credible because it wasn't a set in stone thing or top 5 players joining each other willingly. That's it hey were traded of course.

I use to be a real big Lebron hater, but I respect him more than anyone in the league now and I know he is the best by a long way, he just ain't the GOAT.
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  #17  
Old 05-16-2017, 08:40 AM
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Seriously? A weak conference argument? Anyone trying to use a weak conference argument for Lebron James has lost all credibility. The Eastern Conference has been a joke for most of his career. When he was too young and not good enough to make it regardless, the Pistons were good. There was a small gap in there where he made it to the Finals and got swept, before the Celtics took 3 aging stars and managed to keep them pretty good for a couple years. Since then, it's literally been made fun of it's so terrible. Losing records have made it in the playoffs. I mean that is literally the worst argument you could ever make in James' defense. Teams with winning records have missed out in the West, while losing teams made the playoffs in the East.

The only teams I would even think about would be the Rose era Bulls, but they had barely any offense, and their one offensive star was always injured. Then the Celtics, which were rendered obsolete when James ran off to basically do the same thing they did, but with younger, better stars.
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Old 05-16-2017, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by A11oftheLights View Post
Lebron is better or will be better. Jordan never beat a good team. He couldnt get through the celtics and he couldnt get around the pistons. Beat a weak lakers before beating teams that werent championship calibre teams (you can say they werent championship teams becaause they werent good enough to beat jordan and the bulls but end of the day they werent championship teams) meanwhile Lebron has beaten the spurs dynasty, the warriors, the celtics and a thunder side that will have had at least 3 hall of famers on it. If he does it again this year there isnt even a case to be answered, there will be daylight behind Lebron and the only thing that would keep it close would be nostalgia. People cant hack it that someone is destroying their childhood and they hat on it instead of sitting back and enjoying greatness
I'm sorry but you've lost all credibility with this nonsense. Jordan never beat good teams? Are you serious? Let's run down the list; shall we?

1991
NY Knicks 39-43
PHI 76ers 44-38
DET Pistons 50-32
LA Lakers 58-24

1992
MIA Heat 38-44
NY Knicks 51-31
CLE Cavs 57-25
POR Trailblazers 57-25

1993
ATL Hawks 43-39
CLE Cavs 54-28
NY Knicks 60-22
PHX Suns 62-20

1996
MIA Heat 42-40
NY Knicks 47-35
ORL Magic 60-22
SEA Supersonics 64-18

1997
WAS Bullets 44-38
ATL Hawks 56-26
MIA Heat 61-21
Utah Jazz 64-18

1998
NJ Nets 43-39
CHA Hornets 51-31
IND Pacers 58-24
Utah Jazz 62-20

Above I've listed every opponent that the bulls faced in the playoffs during their championship seasons. Still think they never played anyone? Let's see; they beat 16 teams during those runs that had won 50 or more games and of those 16 teams 7 won 60 or more games. Some of those 60 win teams where even in their own conference and yet they still ended up winning? How many 60 win teams has LeBron faced in the Eastern Conference? I'm tired of hearing that Jordan never had competition because the reverse is actually the truth. LeBron hasn't had competition in the Eastern Conference since Boston was good and that's been about 7 years. So anyone who says that Jordan didn't have competition clearly has no idea as to what they're talking about.
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  #19  
Old 05-16-2017, 06:39 PM
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He might catch him in terms of numbers because of the age in which he started and longevity but not in terms of what Jordan DID for the NBA and the sport of basketball as a whole. He was THE face of the NBA during the globalization of the game in the 1990's. I was overseas during the early '90's and there was NO DOUBT he was the most popular player BY FAR eclipsing Larry and Magic by a wide margin. The internationalization of the game is a direct result of the popularity of Michael Jordan and why basketball is second only to soccer in terms of popularity internationally.

In terms of "catching him" what Michael did the '90's is not possible to be caught by LeBron. 6 for 6 in NBA Finals speaks for itself and contrary to what was stated earlier it came at the expense of some of the greatest players and TEAMS of all time. The Blazers in '92, the Suns in '93, The Magic (with Penny and Shaq) and the Sonics (with Payton and Kemp) in '96, and of course the Jazz with Stockton and Malone in '97 and '98. He also defeated the Bad Boy Pistons in '91, The Ewing-led Knicks in '92 and '93, The Cavs with Nance, Price and Daugherty in 1992, the Miami Heat with Zo and Hardaway in '97 and of course the Pacers with Smits and Reggie Miller in 1998.

LeBron can't match up to that competition. He lost to Dirk and the Mavs. He beat a YOUNG Thunder squad, I'll give him the Spurs (but they were at the end of their run with TD and Kawhi was just starting) and of course the win against the Warriors but he's had his ups and downs in the postseason.

To me, what made Jordan GREAT was his CLUTCH performances when the chips were on the line. When watching Michael, you KNEW he was going to make a play or plays to win the game. He was so competitive and his drive was unreal. He took games over. I don't think there will be anyone to can catch MJ.
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Old 05-16-2017, 08:16 PM
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Its not about wins or who they have on the teams, its about championship calibre teams. Jordan had to wait out the celtics and the Lakers before beating teams that werent as good. Lebron has beating the Celtics, the Warriors and the Spurs. His only ring that wasnt against a championship team was the Thunder. On top of this Lebron should have been the first unanimous mvp (steph shouldnt have even been a unanimous mvp anyway) and he would be if some bum journalist from boston wasnt salty and voted for carmelo
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