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  #21  
Old 04-27-2017, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by comrade_mario View Post
Do people really think WWF would be out of business if Bret had stayed?

Two things go against that, Vince McMahon, who would rather had died than gone out of business, and Stone Cold Steve Austin, who was already earmarked as the next Top Guy and was already well on his way to taking off in the way he did.
You forget that the Austin character didn't explode until he was battling the "evil boss." Without Montreal, Vince McMahon doesn't become the evil boss.
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  #22  
Old 04-27-2017, 12:41 PM
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Bret doesn't drop to Shawn at Survivor Series... he chooses to drop to Taker. Shawn gets pissed and leaves for WCW... dying less than a year later in a drug related incident or car accident.
This is the DUMBEST thing I've ever heard. First of all 'Taker just lost to HBK at Badd Blood. Why would 'Taker then get the title shot?!? HBK was the #1 heel in the company. It all set for him to face Austin at WM 14. HBK knew it. Austin knew it. Bret knew it and most importantly Vince knew it. Shawn had already threatened to go to WCW before but he was locked in a contract. He can't just up and leave. So your scenario about Shawn leaving is asinine also. And why throw in that part about him dying in a car accident? That was lame and in bad taste. You should be ashamed for saying something like that.

Sorry there is no plausible scenario where Bret stays unless he does EXACTLY what Vince wants and that is to put over Shawn Michaels. You really think Vince would take that kind of blatant disrespect? He let Hogan walk and Hogan was 10x the star Bret was. He suspended Warrior at the prime of his career. Bret was on his way down as a star at that point.

The MONEY at that point was in Austin HBK and 'Taker/Kane and to lesser extent the "new blood" in Rock, HHH, Mick Foley, the Outlaws etc....there was no room for Bret in that situation.
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  #23  
Old 04-27-2017, 01:19 PM
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Bret was actually a big supporter of both Austin and the Rock. I don't think he'd have had a problem putting either of them over. Michaels on the other hand, while he was friends with Austin, he always had his issues with the Rock. Rock's career would have been hurt more if HBK didn't retire after WM 14 rather than if Bret stuck around.
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  #24  
Old 04-28-2017, 03:56 AM
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Originally Posted by WWEWrestleFest View Post
Bret was actually a big supporter of both Austin and the Rock. I don't think he'd have had a problem putting either of them over. Michaels on the other hand, while he was friends with Austin, he always had his issues with the Rock. Rock's career would have been hurt more if HBK didn't retire after WM 14 rather than if Bret stuck around.
This is true. Austin and Bret were friendly... remember Austin inducted Bret into the HOF!
I'm surprised it too the WWE to take so long to put the world title on Austin, but had it been Austin not Shawn at Survivor series, Bret has said he would have happily dropped the belt to Austin, Foley, Taker... Steve Lombardi... just anyone but Michaels or Hunter.

As for Rock- he was very respectful of Bret.... I remember when Bret first came on Twitter, Dwayne Johnson... actor/movie star acknowledged Brets arrival on the social media site with a welcome tweet.
As 'Rocky Maivia' in 1996-97 it was Shawn and Hunter that Rock had the problem with 'the kid doesn't have it'.
Wasn't Shawn in the doghouse at WM15 when he went to Vince and tried to dissuade him from booking Rock (at Rocks first) in the WM main event?
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  #25  
Old 04-28-2017, 01:03 PM
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I'm surprised it too the WWE to take so long to put the world title on Austin, but had it been Austin not Shawn at Survivor series, Bret has said he would have happily dropped the belt to Austin, Foley, Taker... Steve Lombardi... just anyone but Michaels or Hunter.
Austin's coronation HAD to come at 'Mania. It marked the beginning of a new era. You don't hot shot something as potentially iconic as that. The build-up was set up perfectly to have Austin win it at WM 14. Unfortunately Shawn's injury took a lot of the air out of the build-up. Could it have been done with Bret? Maybe but Shawn was already in that position. I don't think it could've been anyone BUT Shawn in that position as a former WWF Champion and white hot heel. He also represented the past era of the WWF.

Rocky was ALWAYS respectful of the business having been the son of Rocky Johnson and grown up around the business. HHH and HBK were definitely resentful of Rocky. They went to Vince and wanted Rocky (as I-C Champ) to put over Bret but Bret nixed that idea. There was that infamous story about HBK lobbying Vince to give HHH the main event spot at 15 but Vince (to his credit) put the kabosh on that.

Last edited by Makaveli31 : 04-28-2017 at 01:04 PM. Reason: spelling
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  #26  
Old 04-29-2017, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Makaveli31 View Post
This is the DUMBEST thing I've ever heard. First of all 'Taker just lost to HBK at Badd Blood. Why would 'Taker then get the title shot?!? HBK was the #1 heel in the company. It all set for him to face Austin at WM 14. HBK knew it. Austin knew it. Bret knew it and most importantly Vince knew it. Shawn had already threatened to go to WCW before but he was locked in a contract. He can't just up and leave. So your scenario about Shawn leaving is asinine also. And why throw in that part about him dying in a car accident? That was lame and in bad taste. You should be ashamed for saying something like that.

Sorry there is no plausible scenario where Bret stays unless he does EXACTLY what Vince wants and that is to put over Shawn Michaels. You really think Vince would take that kind of blatant disrespect? He let Hogan walk and Hogan was 10x the star Bret was. He suspended Warrior at the prime of his career. Bret was on his way down as a star at that point.

The MONEY at that point was in Austin HBK and 'Taker/Kane and to lesser extent the "new blood" in Rock, HHH, Mick Foley, the Outlaws etc....there was no room for Bret in that situation.
Why should I be ashamed? truth is that Shawn was so messed up at that point that going to WCW would have exacerbated his problems....with the kind of enabling that WCW's system would have allowed him - something would have happened to him had he gone there... it nearly did in real life, but he had the WWF to keep him relatively straight and when he didn't... he had to sort his life out. There's no shame in saying things might not have ended well for him had he gone there, indeed the man himself would probably agree.

Also, you're missing the point entirely... if Bret's 20 year deal is being honored, properly then HE is the guy... he has the power, not Shawn or the Kliq... they might want Austin to get the title but it'd be on a different timeline... Plans would not have been the same from the middle of 96 onwards, so you can't invoke "just lost to Taker at Badd Blood" as a negative...that might never have happened at all.

Things worked out as they did only cos Vince knew Bret was going and was actively trying to make it so... if he wasn't, the WWF was VERY different in how it handles Bret, Shawn, Taker and other talents.
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  #27  
Old 04-30-2017, 04:14 PM
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Bret had said he wanted to retire around 2000 and take on pat Patterson role which I see him fitting into very well.

98: I see him having a big part in developing the Rock.

99: Jericho's first feud would be with Bret. Not really sure where I see him fitting in in 99, possibly feuding with triple h early in the year.

2000: Brets final year and one of his best. Feuds with Eddie, Malenko, and Benoit and his major feud for the year with Kurt Angle, trading wins most of the year.

Breif return in 2002 for a best of 3 with Shawn. Oddly enough I see this as possibly the era when they have their best matches. When "new Shawn" comes back in 2002, him and Bret (who never got that bitter from the screw job/ injury/Owen situations) patch things up and have the quality matches we always knew they could have together.

Bret probably has an official farewell match around 2005 with either Cena, Taker, Michaels, or an up and coming star he'd like to put over.
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  #28  
Old 04-30-2017, 09:04 PM
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This is one of the most impossible things to say, it is pure speculation.

For one thing, no one knows for sure exactly when Vince made the decision that he would not be able to honour Bret's contract, and that Bret should discuss terms with WCW. The only thing we can say with any degree of certainty is that is what after Summerslam 1997 (otherwise, why on earth would Vince have Bret win the title back then?)

So much happened, or even MAY have happened, following Vince's decision: would Hell in a Cell have happened? Was the plan always to go with Shawn beating Bret? Remember, HIAC was a number one contender's match, and it seems likely that, given the nature of the match, the winner would then go on to become champion. It's logical, and helps the (admittedly brilliant) concept of Hell in a Cell get over further. It was also an integral part of the Undertaker and Kane storyline, so let's say for arguements sake that HIAC still exists. So the idea then is to have Shawn dethrone Bret at Survivor Series. Anything else really makes HIAC pointless.

So then what? Bret would inevitably get a rematch. Would they book a Bret v Shawn rematch at a throwaway December pay-per-view? Or would they maybe book an injury or even suspension angle, causing him to miss the December ppv (which may or may not be called D-Generation X), but build to his rematch with Michaels at the Royal Rumble? Now this is a crucial point, as Shawn Michaels not being in a casket match at the Royal Rumble means that Shawn Michaels does not suffer his serious back injury at the Royal Rumble. Perhaps he still gets injured, but in all likeliness, he doesn't, meaning he doesn't miss four years of action.

Straight away then, within two months of the Montreal Screwjob, should it not happen and Bret Hart remained a WWE employee, a HUGE part of the segueing into the Attitude Era is void.

After this, who knows what will happen? Maybe Shawn gets injured some other way? Maybe Bret does? Life generally means the older a human gets, the more susceptible they are to illness and injury, and you can amplify that ten-fold for someone in a physically demanding job like that of a professional wrestler.

But for the sake of this thread, let's go through a couple of things that *MAY* not have happened had Bret stayed (and Shawn stayed healthy):

* Mick Foley never gets elevated - Foley was, let's not forget, Steve Austin's first WWE Championship challenger, turning heel as Dude Love. This would likely have not been needed as the top of the card was full. Indeed, as with Bret after Survivor Series, a healthy Shawn Michaels would have had at least one world title rematch on ppv in the aftermath of Wrestlemania XIV (we can all agree that Austin would have still won the title, likely from Michaels, at WM)
* Triple H and the Rock, I believe, WOULD have broken the ceiling, but at a slower pace - especially the Rock (remember, Rocky had never main evented a ppv before he won the WWE Championship at Survivor Series 1998)
* Owen Hart, the British Bulldog and Ken Shamrock all may have had more success, especially in the upper mid-card zone, occasionally dabbing into the main event (much as Davey Boy did in 1995/96) - if Shamrock still wins the King of the Ring, perhaps more is done with him, maybe a title match at Fully Loaded or Summerslam?

And here is one thing that definitely WOULD have happened, regardless: the New Age Outlaws join D-Generation X, possibly sooner than they did, leading to a feud between DX and the Hart Foundation (imagine the No Way Out main event getting switched to Shawn, Hunter, Road Dogg and Billy Gunn v Bret, Owen, Davey and Neidhart, it could even have been a way to cement the Hart Foundation's return to the babyface side of the fence, whilst building a variety of feuds for Wrestlemania, much like they did with Canadian Stampede, one of the most critically acclaimed WWE ppvs in history)

Finally, one thing that Bret Hart staying would have had no bearing on whatsoever would be WCW staying in business - that was purely a result of Turner selling his network and the new owners having no time for wrestling; remember WCW's declining ratings were still higher than most other shows produced by Time Warner.
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  #29  
Old 05-01-2017, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by jachba View Post
If you read Martha Hart's book "Broken Harts: The Life and Death of Owen Hart", it is very apparent that Martha hated wrestling (as one review of the book states, a hate ingrained in her from childhood), had no use for the WWE in particular, had a condescending attitude towards most wrestlers and would have decided to sue them regardless of what Bret thought one way or the other.
I wonder then, how she felt that her own husband was a wrestler, and a pretty dedicated one, meaning he would have put a bit of time into it, and her husband being part of a wrestling family.

Also, she obviously didn't complain about the roof wrestling put over her head, or the food wrestling put on her table, via Owen making a lot of money wrestling.

If she hated wrestling so much, then how could she marry someone who has it as their profession, and then gladly accept all the nice things that Owen's wrestling wage bought her and the children.

I can understand her being upset with WWE for Owen's death (though Owen CHOSE to do the stunt), and possibly even seeing if there is any legal avenues. But to trash the industry that made her husband famous, and meant so much to him, smacks of her being a ballbreaking, bitter, snobbish bitch.
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  #30  
Old 05-02-2017, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by d_henderson1810 View Post
I wonder then, how she felt that her own husband was a wrestler, and a pretty dedicated one, meaning he would have put a bit of time into it, and her husband being part of a wrestling family.

Also, she obviously didn't complain about the roof wrestling put over her head, or the food wrestling put on her table, via Owen making a lot of money wrestling.

If she hated wrestling so much, then how could she marry someone who has it as their profession, and then gladly accept all the nice things that Owen's wrestling wage bought her and the children.

I can understand her being upset with WWE for Owen's death (though Owen CHOSE to do the stunt), and possibly even seeing if there is any legal avenues. But to trash the industry that made her husband famous, and meant so much to him, smacks of her being a ballbreaking, bitter, snobbish bitch.
Uh that's a pretty terrible thing to say. Maybe it's possible Martha loved Owen in-spite of his profession. It's not unheard of plus I understand Owen did have plans to retire so there's that.

As for her bitterness towards the WWE I am pretty sure it had a lot do with the accident and, as I said before, I am not going to judge someone being upset with a company and industry that took someone's loved one away especially, if you look at the circumstances, one that was unnecessary and wreckless (as shown by the WWE getting a quick release mechanism that was not suitable for a human being).
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