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  #1  
Old 01-19-2017, 12:33 AM
TWJC: The Beginning TWJC: The Beginning is offline
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Default Why do you think Vince wants faces to be cheered?

Im asking the vast majority of the IWC this: its 2017...why do you think vince wants faces to be cheered? He doesnt. Bret Hart got booed in 1997, it made for better TV. "LETS GO CENA" "CENA SUCKS" is a shirt.

Babyfaces are there to sell merch. WWE clearly understands that the guy who appeals to 6-12 year olds isnt going to appeal to 20 year olds. The mixed reactionnis more entertaining.

So again, why do so many people legitimately think WWE wants cena/reigns to get universal cheers when that hasnt been a focus in 20 years?
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Old 01-19-2017, 04:36 AM
Kodo Sawaki Kodo Sawaki is offline
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Just makes more sense in terms of the story he build. You can look at his perpective as a movie maker one. You build a hero for a specific reason to be likable and stop the villain. Now, some villains are charismatic(like Joker for example) but its still in the story that he is psychopat that does awfull stuff and you need Batman to stop him. So if you have people cheer for Joker its not really the story you are trying to portray.
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  #3  
Old 01-19-2017, 06:02 AM
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Cena is the only person for whom I find the mixed reaction interesting. Storytelling has always been a dichotomy of sorts. Good vs Evil, the Righteous vs the Wicked. I know it seems old fashioned in 2017 to think that things have to be that black and white, but there is a reason that paradigm has existed for so long.

Just My Opinion...
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Old 01-19-2017, 08:14 AM
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Selling merch and cheers are not mutually exclusive but the point is clear that kids buy or have their parents buy more crap. Vince ends up in a tight spot where he has two beasts to feed: he has to sell merch but at the same time fill arenas and keep people watching his television programming. I think that is where the strong IWC opinions come in. How do I continue to watch a program where I don't appreciate the main protagonist? While Vince wonders how he sells merchandise, pull in new fans, but keeps people watching his television shows that are live in time slots that are somewhat after bedtime.
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Old 01-19-2017, 09:44 AM
HeenanGorilla HeenanGorilla is online now
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This is an interesting point, the relationship between cheers and merchandise.

As a kid, I liked what I liked. What I mean by that is I am probably one of VERY few people to have ordered a Hercules t-shirt from the WWF Magazine catalog. I would look at the t-shirt page and be disappointed when my favorite wrestlers had shirts that I just didn't think were cool. I remember there was a Don Muraco t-shirt that is probably still my favorite to this day. It had a breaking wave and navy blue sleeve and collar bands. In fact, at my first live event, I chose a Hot Rod t-shirt because it looked cool. I was 7 years old and Piper was the biggest heel in the company; but, Hulk's shirts weren't as cool to me--plus they were everywhere! Were Piper, Muraco and Herc favorites of mine? No. Did their shirts look cool to me? Yep!

Nowadays--and probably throughout the past as well--a lot of kids base their fandom or merchandise purchases on popularity. I ask my little cousins every year who their favorite sports teams are and, amazingly, their teams are always in first place. Front-running and going with the flow have a lot to do with these decisions. Do all of these kids wearing Cena hats and shirts really think of him as their favorite? I doubt it. But their friends all wear Cena stuff. Easier to join the crowd then show up at school in a Kane shirt that looks cool to that particular kid, but is nothing like what the others have and represents a much less popular wrestler.

Hulk Hogan was red and yellow forever. NWO changed that, but for a very long time, Hulk merchandise was just red and yellow. He would have several t-shirts and other items available at a time, whereas other wrestlers would have one. (This is the Brutus Beefcake shirt, take it or leave it.) But, though Hogan had several options, they were all red and yellow. When John Cena started changing colors, it struck me as odd at first, but then I realized it was brilliant. A kid with a blue and orange Cena shirt is suddenly out of the loop because his friend has the new purple and yellow Cena shirt. The Fruity Pebbles thing was memorable, but each and every color combo meant new purchases from the same kids/fans. If you had a red/yellow Hogan shirt and a new red/yellow shirt came out, you were probably in no rush to get this similar shirt. But when you're the only kid not wearing black/green Cena shirts/hats/wristbands, you're more likely (if you're one of these kids who prefers to go along with the popular trend) to go out and get the new merchandise.

Titles are viewed more as props to wrestling fans today than they were in the past. The importance of the IC belt over the years is a prime example. But, when talking about kids and their (parents') merchandise dollars, being the face of the company or being the champ is going to help you. When I was about 10 years old, I went to a live event and bought Hitman shades and a Hitman tank top. I saw no one else in the arena with either. Hart was becoming popular at this time, but still years away from becoming a singles star. (I am not trying to imply I was his first fan or anything like that. Haha. I am sure other people in the arena had these items. It just wasn't obvious--as opposed to a wave of Hogan or Cena shirts in the crowd) But, my point is I thought the shirt and glasses were so cool. I didn't care that he was a mid-card talent and nowhere near the world title. I believe if Bret was champ then, we all would have been wearing those shades. Same item, but a different circumstance.

Contrary to my red and yellow theory, you have Stone Cold who also had a bunch of shirts out, like Hulk did, and they were all black. But, I think each one of those sold well, where Hulk probably had some shirts that didn't make people want to go out and get the new one. Is it because black is cooler than red/yellow? Is it because of the era--where the badass guy was cheered, as opposed to the prayers and vitamins guy? I'm not sure. But, Hogan, Austin, Cena--all were the top dog. I think front-running is a major force in merchandising. Speaking to my era--the Golden Era--a basic, no big deal Hogan poster would outsell an awesomely-colored, with lightning bolts and bold lettering poster of...say...Tito Santana. One might look a lot cooler, but it doesn't have the popular wrestler on it, so the money goes elsewhere.
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  #6  
Old 01-19-2017, 09:51 AM
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I see your overall point. Don't understand the Bret Hart example though. He started getting booed as his heel turn started. He became "whiny" and the fans turned on him as his attitude changed. Then he went full heel after Mania and was a heel the rest of his time in WWF, except for when they went to Canada.
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  #7  
Old 01-19-2017, 12:48 PM
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Then why does Roman's boos get edited in their later uploaded videos? If that was the case, they wouldn't be.

Obviosly since Vince is pushing Roman, Roman sells merch. It's not just because he has muscles. But bear in mind, that's not always the case. Vince pushes who he wants to push. Ryback also sold merch and was muscular. Where is he now? What about that time Vince asked Punk to turn heel, when Punk was #1 merch seller?

Vince pushes who HE WANTS and also wants that guy to be cheered.

However I'll agree with one thing. A reaction is a reaction and Roman has the loudest reactions in the entire RAW full-time active locker room. Maybe if they would stop editing the cheers and the boos, people would like Roman more.
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  #8  
Old 01-19-2017, 04:36 PM
d_henderson1810 d_henderson1810 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TWJC: The Beginning View Post
Im asking the vast majority of the IWC this: its 2017...why do you think vince wants faces to be cheered? He doesnt. Bret Hart got booed in 1997, it made for better TV. "LETS GO CENA" "CENA SUCKS" is a shirt.

Babyfaces are there to sell merch. WWE clearly understands that the guy who appeals to 6-12 year olds isnt going to appeal to 20 year olds. The mixed reactionnis more entertaining.

So again, why do so many people legitimately think WWE wants cena/reigns to get universal cheers when that hasnt been a focus in 20 years?
Vince wants faces cheered because it has worked for time in memoriam- the good guys v the bad guys.

Jesus v Satan, cowboys v indians, Batman v The Joker, U.S.A. v U.S.S.R.

As hard as it will be for millenials to believe this, once upon a time, people wanted to see the good guy win. Most movies, TV shows and stories involved a hero, a villan, and wanting to see at the end the hero give the villan what he has coming to him. People used to cheer "The good guy" and boo the "bad guy". People didn't choose to boo John Wayne, for example, because he was "the good guy" and everyone got behind the Duke, as he shot it out against a tribe of indians or a black-hatted villan who hit town. People didn't want to see John Wayne to "be flawed" and the villan be on top. If this happened, it angered fans more, and they really wanted Wayne's character to get revenge.

My question is this:-Why do today's society want to embrace the bad guy.

Today's society wants all their heroes to have clay feet, for celebrities and sportspeople to fall, and for Superman to be dark and broody, rather than a superhero boy scout Christopher Reeve type. Hell, there were people in Western society who wanted the U.S.A. to lose the Iraq and Afghanistan wars.

The fact is, you changed! It's your fault, not Vince's or anyone else.

What, do you think that cheering a good guy means that you can't think a bad guy is cool as well?

I am a "Star Wars" fan, and my favourite all-time villan was Darth Vader. Dark, sinister, intimidating. Yet that didn't mean that I wanted him to kill Luke, Leia and Han, and defeat the Rebellion.

Also, I loved Heath Ledger's version of the Joker, but that didn't mean I wanted him to defeat the Dark Knight.

You can think that a "villan" is cool, yet still want to boo him, and hope that he gets his just desserts.

Didn't it annoy you when the NWO (cool heels)seemed to get the better of Sting? Weren't you happy when Goldberg bested Hogan on "Nitro"?

Look, many of you boo because it is the "cool" thing to do, you want to troll Vince, and say to him "We know better than you what sells", and a delusion that the fans are the stars of the show and if they yell out abuse and cheer against what is going on in the ring (post-Wrestlemania Raw crowd, I'm looking at you) and hijack the show, that they will be listened to, and that Vince will fall at their feet saying "I'm not worthy" and do any ridiculous idea any fan comes up with.
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  #9  
Old 01-20-2017, 08:56 AM
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I disagree with the notion Vince wants baby faces to get a mixed reaction. What would you rather have, someone who sells t-shirts to children only, or someone who sells merchandise to all fans? If Vince really wanted a mixed reaction, Roman Reigns would still be the champion and the featured guy on every pay-per-view, or network special, whatever you want to call it. I think they're still searching for the guy who will be universally loved. Is that possible in 2017? I'm not sure it is.
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Old 01-20-2017, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Nick Dudley View Post
I think they're still searching for the guy who will be universally loved. Is that possible in 2017? I'm not sure it is.
I think you're right. I don't see how it is possible.

Of course, we can use the logic that in today's world of "everyone having a voice" online, it is harder to pretend that someone is universally loved. Back in the Hogan days, there were certainly people who were sick of his routine sooner than others--or probably even those who never bought into him. But that group was greatly outnumbered, thus not heard from in the days of controlled feedback. Now, those people have many ways to voice their displeasure and, depending on the way it is done, it can pick up steam once several people agree. In 1987, if a guy from Kansas, a guy from Ohio and 100 other people from 100 other places wrote to WWF Magazine and said they were tired of Hogan's act, WWF would see the thousands of letters of Hogan support and simply ignore/destroy the letters of disapproval--"they don't exist, everyone loves Hogan". Today, those guys who shared the same disapproving opinion can gather on a forum and become a louder voice. They may still be the minority, but they aren't necessarily as easily dismissed or ignored.

Another reason is that it seems that each year there are more and more people who make sure to boo who they are told to like. There is not always a legit reason behind it. I think this bandwagon is being hopped on more than so many others. Reigns was the man a few years ago, but then he was being pushed too quickly and people started hating him. All of these people were bothered at the same time? "Not bloody likely!" It is more a case of "the crowd at RAW the last few weeks has booed this guy. We'll do the same when they're in our hometown next week." It's almost like the average wrestling event attendee would rather do anything to possibly be heard, run home to their computer (or check their phone during the show) and see if the world is talking about their chant or their response to the performances. Thousands and thousands of people across the country, at the exact same time, all decided it was time for Big Show to retire?? No. But "please retire" or whatever the chant was, had become something that was recognized. The "What?" chant is another example. Do this many people still find "What?" funny or useful 15-20 years later? I don't see how they could. But it's what the other crowds do, so we'll do it.

So much of the reaction of the live crowds and those who write on the internet seems disingenuous. It mostly seems they have decided how they will react, despite what is put on in front of them. "This is awesome!" Is it? Is every match with false finishes awesome? Is every match that goes longer than one segment awesome? No. But that chant will be heard every single time. Is it because all crowds think longer than usual matches are automatically awesome? Or is it because they heard a "this is awesome" chant on TV and want to be part of one themselves, regardless of sincerity?

Between not being able to as easily ignore the minority's opinions and the predetermined decision to go against the grain as a "fan", there seems to be no way to have anyone please the majority...or at least the non-silent minority that is perceived as the majority. Today, Donald Trump is being inaugurated as the 45th President of the United States. Not to get political--I am only using this as an example--but the anti-Trump noise was booming leading up to the election; so, it was perceived as an easy victory for Hillary Clinton. But, just because her supporters were louder, doesn't necessarily mean there are more of them. The squeaky wheel may get the grease, but the other 3 are rolling along just fine.

The point I am trying to make is regardless of how many people think one way or the other, the negatives are always louder than the positives. Who is more likely to go on Yelp? A customer thrilled with their dinner or someone who found a hair in their food and is looking for a way to voice their displeasure? The negatives are always louder, so you have to take that into consideration when choosing a place to eat. Feedback will always lean towards bad experiences because those who are pleased go about their day and those who are wronged look for anyway to feel better. A universally loved superstar--or universally loved anything--is harder to come by than ever.
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