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  #1  
Old 06-22-2016, 05:41 PM
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Default Chicago Cubs leading the all star vote

So as of today, the Chicago Cubs' lineup is leading the NL All Star voting in almost every position except catcher.

Please, explain that to me. I looked up the numbers right now, and there is someone almost every position that is doing better and IS better than the Cub who is leading.

Let's start at third base, because this is what gets me the most. Kris Bryant leads the voting over Nolan Arenado. Meanwhile, Arenado beats him in almost every single category. Home Runs, Arenado 21 and Bryant 17. Average, Arenado .295 and Bryant .270. Runs and Doubles, Bryant has a couple more. RBIs? Arenado with 12 more. Not to mention, Bryant is second in the NL in strikeouts among third basemen, after that scrub from Cincinnati. Plus, Arenado's defense is miles better. Nolan Arenado is the best defensive third basemen in all of baseball in my opinion right now, especially with Manny Machado at shortstop.

There is NO reason why Bryant is better than Arenado. Not right now anyway, not last season. Definitely not the first half of this season. Arenado is by far the most underrated player in baseball, and btw he's leading both the NL and the AL in home runs.

It isn't just him though. Let's move onto second base. Ben Zobrist is leading the voting, over Daniel Murphy? Daniel Murphy is hitting .352 right now! Zobrist's .311 is impresive, but Murphy still tops him by a mile. Murphy has three more home runs, five more RBIs, six more doubles, and 20 more hits. Zobrist has one more steal, and his walks to Ks I will admit are impressive. Zobrist's defense is also way more solid, so it's a littler closer than Bryant and Arenado, but I still don't agree with Zobrist leading the voting over Murphy. I think Murphy is the best NL second basemen right now.

Here is a good one. Addison Russell is leading at shortstop. The guy is hitting .237 with 9 doubles, 2 triples, 6 homers and 2 steals. Those numbers aren't exactly eye popping to me. Johnathan Villar is having a fantastic year at shortstop right now, and so is both Trevor Story and Corey Seager. Even Zach Cozart is doing great. All four of those guy have way better numbers than that line I just typed out for Russell. I'm not sure on their defense, their errors seem to be around the same, but Russell is only 9th in fielding percentage among NL shortstops, and 13th in putouts behind all four of those other shortstops I mentioned. No way he deserves to lead the voting either.

And Centerfield. Dexter freaking Fowler. Ozuna is having a way better year than Fowler, and so is Cespedes too. Chuckie Blackmon I would also put in front of Fowler. Yes, Fowler is hitting .290 and is second in the league with doubles behind Jon Jay, but compared to all three of those other guys his numbers aren't as good. Cespedes leads NL center fielders with homers at 18, and his average is tied with Fowler at .290. Ozuna has 15, and is hitting a whopping .323 right now. Oddubel Herrera is hitting over .300 himself with 7 homers and 11 steals. If Charlie Blackmon didn't get hurt, he'd probably had numbers better than all of those other guys. Fowler is also tied for second in errors at NL center field by the way.

I'll give Anthony Rizzo first base. With 15 doubles, 17 homers, 54 RBIs, and a .275 average he probably deserves it with his good defense. However Brandon Belt has 19 doubles, 10 homers, and is hitting .305. However I'd still probably have to give Rizzo this one.

But none the less, he is the only one! Second Base, Third Base, Shortstop, and Outfield there are clearly other players better. And yet for some reason people would rather vote in the entire freaking Chicago Cubs lineup. People think the team that hasn't won a world series in a centurary is going to just magically dominate everybody. I don't see them making it there, I see them losing in NLDS quite honestly. They have no bullpen, and most of their rotation is spitting it. They will come back down to earth, and Jake Arieta will either come back down to earth, or he'll get caught on whatever he's taking...because I'm not buying the whole "pilates" storyline. He definitely borrowed some power pellets from Djokovic. Or maybe he's on that "gluten free diet".

Arieta might be the real deal, and he was just a late bloomer. I won't go that far as to say he is spitting it, but I really am hoping he is. None the less, Jason Hammel? He'll come back down to earth for sure, Jon Lester probably will too. And their bullpen will catch up to them. Unless they trade for Chapman or Andrew Miller, which I heard they might, I don't see them going all the way. This Cub's team though has to be the most overrated team in baseball this decade. I've never seen anything worse. I won't deny they are good, but everyone is all over them way too hard, and their good players are being looked at like elite players, and the ones who actually are better than them are getting overshadowed.

The good news is, it isn't often that a team like this who gets shoved down our throats by all the broadcasters and analysts, and is overrated by everyone as the "front runner to win the World Series" actually goes and wins it. And honestly, I had the Pirates winning the division until their slump. I still think if the Pirates get past the wild card round this year, they could take the Cubs in the NLDS. With Cole, Taillon, and Tyler Glasnow all in their rotation, the Pirates could be a much different team. However, they're going to have to get in gear because at this rate they won't even get over .500.

The All Star game has become nothing more than a popularity contest. I honestly don't know why I even expected anything more nowadays. I used to think the best of the best got chosen, but that's obviously not the case. And to give the Cubs a little slack, Yadier Molina is leading the voting at Catcher, and even isn't putting up impressive numbers. True he's still got to be the best defensive catcher in the league but I think Posey, Lucroy, Ramos, and even JT Realmuto are all putting up better batting numbers. Ramos I think statistically might be better than Molina on almost every level, but I can understand why Molina would still get voted in.

However, the excitement getting over the Cubs is quite out of control. Kris Bryant, Dexter Fowler, Addison Russell, and Ben Zobrist are NOT the best of their position. I'm sorry, but it's true. Personally I think Kris Bryant has the potential to be one of the best, but right now he isn't. Of course the All Star has become a popularity contest, and I guess I should simply accept that. It's all about viewership and money. I mean that's what every sport's all star games have turned into, so I can't say I'm not used to it.

Does anybody want to debate this? I'd love to hear a solid argument on why Bryant, Fowler, Russell, or Zobrist deserve to be in the All Star game over Nolan Arenado, Y. Cespedes, Corey Seager, or Daniel Murphy.
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Old 06-22-2016, 09:18 PM
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First of all, as some on this site know I am a die hard life long Cubs fan.

Second, the all star game has always been a popularity contest but now it's so much easier to vote so people that don't really follow the game just vote for their favorites on line over and over. Back in my day I had to punch out an actual ballot and walk ten miles up hill barefoot in the snow (yep, in June) to drop it in the mailbox.

Third,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akhilleus View Post
The good news is, it isn't often that a team like this who gets shoved down our throats by all the broadcasters and analysts, and is overrated by everyone as the "front runner to win the World Series" actually goes and wins it.
We've suffered for over a century so back off.

Fourth, you're absolutely right. I hated it last year when the Royals fans were stuffing the boxes. Omar Infante? Give me a break. Despite the Cubs being my team I find it equally annoying this year. It sounds like our ballots were pretty much the same. The only Cub I voted for was Rizzo. I voted Arrenado, Seager, Murphy, and Cespedes.

There is a certain charm in the fans being able to vote but if stuff like this keeps up something is going to have to change. I know there is no way this will happen but I wonder what the ballots would look like if people weren't able to vote on line. Are there even real ballots at the ballparks anymore? Hopefully things level out in the next week but I doubt it.

For the record, before the season started I also picked Pittsburgh to win the division and for both the Cubs and the Pirates to lose to the Giants in the playoffs. Obviously I hope to be wrong. I just want to experience one championship in my lifetime since nobody that I've ever known got to experience one.
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Old 06-22-2016, 11:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akhilleus View Post
So as of today, the Chicago Cubs' lineup is leading the NL All Star voting in almost every position except catcher.

Please, explain that to me. I looked up the numbers right now, and there is someone almost every position that is doing better and IS better than the Cub who is leading.

Let's start at third base, because this is what gets me the most. Kris Bryant leads the voting over Nolan Arenado. Meanwhile, Arenado beats him in almost every single category. Home Runs, Arenado 21 and Bryant 17. Average, Arenado .295 and Bryant .270. Runs and Doubles, Bryant has a couple more. RBIs? Arenado with 12 more. Not to mention, Bryant is second in the NL in strikeouts among third basemen, after that scrub from Cincinnati. Plus, Arenado's defense is miles better. Nolan Arenado is the best defensive third basemen in all of baseball in my opinion right now, especially with Manny Machado at shortstop.

There is NO reason why Bryant is better than Arenado. Not right now anyway, not last season. Definitely not the first half of this season. Arenado is by far the most underrated player in baseball, and btw he's leading both the NL and the AL in home runs.

It isn't just him though. Let's move onto second base. Ben Zobrist is leading the voting, over Daniel Murphy? Daniel Murphy is hitting .352 right now! Zobrist's .311 is impresive, but Murphy still tops him by a mile. Murphy has three more home runs, five more RBIs, six more doubles, and 20 more hits. Zobrist has one more steal, and his walks to Ks I will admit are impressive. Zobrist's defense is also way more solid, so it's a littler closer than Bryant and Arenado, but I still don't agree with Zobrist leading the voting over Murphy. I think Murphy is the best NL second basemen right now.

Here is a good one. Addison Russell is leading at shortstop. The guy is hitting .237 with 9 doubles, 2 triples, 6 homers and 2 steals. Those numbers aren't exactly eye popping to me. Johnathan Villar is having a fantastic year at shortstop right now, and so is both Trevor Story and Corey Seager. Even Zach Cozart is doing great. All four of those guy have way better numbers than that line I just typed out for Russell. I'm not sure on their defense, their errors seem to be around the same, but Russell is only 9th in fielding percentage among NL shortstops, and 13th in putouts behind all four of those other shortstops I mentioned. No way he deserves to lead the voting either.

And Centerfield. Dexter freaking Fowler. Ozuna is having a way better year than Fowler, and so is Cespedes too. Chuckie Blackmon I would also put in front of Fowler. Yes, Fowler is hitting .290 and is second in the league with doubles behind Jon Jay, but compared to all three of those other guys his numbers aren't as good. Cespedes leads NL center fielders with homers at 18, and his average is tied with Fowler at .290. Ozuna has 15, and is hitting a whopping .323 right now. Oddubel Herrera is hitting over .300 himself with 7 homers and 11 steals. If Charlie Blackmon didn't get hurt, he'd probably had numbers better than all of those other guys. Fowler is also tied for second in errors at NL center field by the way.

I'll give Anthony Rizzo first base. With 15 doubles, 17 homers, 54 RBIs, and a .275 average he probably deserves it with his good defense. However Brandon Belt has 19 doubles, 10 homers, and is hitting .305. However I'd still probably have to give Rizzo this one.

But none the less, he is the only one! Second Base, Third Base, Shortstop, and Outfield there are clearly other players better. And yet for some reason people would rather vote in the entire freaking Chicago Cubs lineup. People think the team that hasn't won a world series in a centurary is going to just magically dominate everybody. I don't see them making it there, I see them losing in NLDS quite honestly. They have no bullpen, and most of their rotation is spitting it. They will come back down to earth, and Jake Arieta will either come back down to earth, or he'll get caught on whatever he's taking...because I'm not buying the whole "pilates" storyline. He definitely borrowed some power pellets from Djokovic. Or maybe he's on that "gluten free diet".

Arieta might be the real deal, and he was just a late bloomer. I won't go that far as to say he is spitting it, but I really am hoping he is. None the less, Jason Hammel? He'll come back down to earth for sure, Jon Lester probably will too. And their bullpen will catch up to them. Unless they trade for Chapman or Andrew Miller, which I heard they might, I don't see them going all the way. This Cub's team though has to be the most overrated team in baseball this decade. I've never seen anything worse. I won't deny they are good, but everyone is all over them way too hard, and their good players are being looked at like elite players, and the ones who actually are better than them are getting overshadowed.

The good news is, it isn't often that a team like this who gets shoved down our throats by all the broadcasters and analysts, and is overrated by everyone as the "front runner to win the World Series" actually goes and wins it. And honestly, I had the Pirates winning the division until their slump. I still think if the Pirates get past the wild card round this year, they could take the Cubs in the NLDS. With Cole, Taillon, and Tyler Glasnow all in their rotation, the Pirates could be a much different team. However, they're going to have to get in gear because at this rate they won't even get over .500.

The All Star game has become nothing more than a popularity contest. I honestly don't know why I even expected anything more nowadays. I used to think the best of the best got chosen, but that's obviously not the case. And to give the Cubs a little slack, Yadier Molina is leading the voting at Catcher, and even isn't putting up impressive numbers. True he's still got to be the best defensive catcher in the league but I think Posey, Lucroy, Ramos, and even JT Realmuto are all putting up better batting numbers. Ramos I think statistically might be better than Molina on almost every level, but I can understand why Molina would still get voted in.

However, the excitement getting over the Cubs is quite out of control. Kris Bryant, Dexter Fowler, Addison Russell, and Ben Zobrist are NOT the best of their position. I'm sorry, but it's true. Personally I think Kris Bryant has the potential to be one of the best, but right now he isn't. Of course the All Star has become a popularity contest, and I guess I should simply accept that. It's all about viewership and money. I mean that's what every sport's all star games have turned into, so I can't say I'm not used to it.

Does anybody want to debate this? I'd love to hear a solid argument on why Bryant, Fowler, Russell, or Zobrist deserve to be in the All Star game over Nolan Arenado, Y. Cespedes, Corey Seager, or Daniel Murphy.
Batting average and raw counting stats are a pretty terrible indicator of a player's real value. It speaks nothing at all to the quality of the hitting, nor does it isolate the stats to the players own performance (a player with good hitters in front of him can rack up RBIs even though another player can be, individually, a far superior hitter). Furthermore it says nothing at all about their value on the basepaths or defensively.

There's certainly some egregiousness to some of the battles - I think Addison Russel stands out the most to me. He just doesn't bring nearly enough with his bat right now - way down at 89 wRC+ - to make up for it with his admittedly excellent defense and solid value on the basepaths - but as the old saying goes, you can't steal a hit. Every other positional battle is more or less even though. I think you'd have a hard time separating Zobrist and Murphy in a meaningful way - Murphy certainly generates more power (.231 ISO vs .170 for Zobrist) and as a result better overall offense (160 wRC+ vs 144, though to be fair, both are insane numbers), but they're basically even on the basepaths and Zobrist has a pronounced defensive edge. It's made them exactly equal in fWAR and you could really flip a coin between them. Murphy at least doesn't seem likely to be left off the team.

Fowler is pretty far ahead of Cespedes in my opinion - Cespedes bring a lot of power but also more strikeouts and fewer walks than Fowler, while Fowler is nearly leading (just 0.3% separates him from Odubel Herrera) qualified center fields in OBP. As a result their overall offensive value is a lot closer than you might think (140 wRC+ vs 151 for Cespedes) while Fowler has graded out leagues ahead in baserunning and defensive value, so I would definitely advocate for Fowler. Though overall I think Marcell Ozuna has been majorly overlooked for a spot.

Arenado vs Bryant is tight and personally I'd be inclined to give it to Arenado myself, though it isn't massive. Four homeruns is almost all that separates these two in my mind.

So I think the Cubs are well justified in at least half of the battles you've highlighted, one they're slightly behind, and the only one that sticks out is Russell, but hey, he isn't Omar Infante. Which is to say he's actually a productive Major League player.

There's really quite a bit more wrong with your assessment of the Cubs, namely 1) there's no strong suggestion that Arrieta is due for significant regression (he's benefiting from some luck as virtually any sub 2 ERA pitcher does) and 2) the Cubs are really far from overrated. It would be basically impossible for a team to play 70 games and play as well as they have without being at least a highly competitive team and indeed, every predictive model since before the season and through it continues to place the Cubs as high favorites for the championship, and really for very good reason. They boast a truly elite offense and the best starting rotation in the game, which has performed basically at expected levels. Baseball is a very high variance game in the playoffs and, for example, 538 gives them "only" about a 28% chance to win it all, but if the results from the season so far continue I don't think there's any aspect of this Cubs team that can really be called overrated.
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Old 06-26-2016, 06:46 PM
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The All Star voting system is really stupid. The ability for fans to vote over and over and over again has made this a popularity contest and rewards whichever fan base is the most persistent with their votes. I think it should be more of a player and coach vote but the MLB stands by the notion that the game is for the fans so there ya go.

I'm a lifelong Cubs fan but even I realize that Bryant leading at 3rd is puzzling. Taking defense into consideration Arenado is superior, and there is the fact that Bryant doesn't play at 3rd everyday. Don't get me wrong I love Kris Bryant and he's having another great year but Arenado is hands down the best all around player in the NL possibly the MLB so far this year.

I can agree with Rizzo, Zobrist, and Fowler leading at their positions but Addison Russell's inconsistency at the plate leads me to believe there are better choices for SS. Again as Cubs fan I am a huge fan of Russell, his BA. Doesn't show it but he has had some clutch hits and shown a good amount of power. He has also played excellent defense. While I think he is a worthy Allstar candidate, Corey Seager is more deserving of the starting spot to me.

But again this game is apparently for the fans, so as long as fans can vote an infinite amount of times there will still be people who's numbers don't necessarily compute as being a leading AS vote getter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harthan View Post
Fowler is pretty far ahead of Cespedes in my opinion - Cespedes bring a lot of power but also more strikeouts and fewer walks than Fowler, while Fowler is nearly leading (just 0.3% separates him from Odubel Herrera) qualified center fields in OBP. As a result their overall offensive value is a lot closer than you might think (140 wRC+ vs 151 for Cespedes) while Fowler has graded out leagues ahead in baserunning and defensive value, so I would definitely advocate for Fowler. Though overall I think Marcell Ozuna has been majorly overlooked for a spot.

Arenado vs Bryant is tight and personally I'd be inclined to give it to Arenado myself, though it isn't massive. Four homeruns is almost all that separates these two in my mind.

So I think the Cubs are well justified in at least half of the battles you've highlighted, one they're slightly behind, and the only one that sticks out is Russell, but hey, he isn't Omar Infante. Which is to say he's actually a productive Major League
Could not agree more about Fowler over Cespedes, I realize a players salary means nothing in the vote but for his contract, Cespedes is one of the most overrated players in the league. Total defensive liability when put in CF
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Old 07-09-2016, 05:35 PM
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I do not understand why all these Cubs are in the All Star Game, sure they looked awesome back in April and May, I have never seen a total team collapse like this.
Bryant- he deserves to go he is looking good.
Rizzo- he is up and down starting to put it together.
Zobrist- slumping at the wrong time.
Russell- slowly putting it together, still could be a lot better.
Fowler- hurt and out for the last month.
Arrietta- looking terrible since he stopped the juice.
Lester- has not looked good as of late.
Kris Bryant is the only one who really should be going, I love the Cubs and have my whole life but they really stink right now. They got our hopes up and now they came back down to reality.
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Old 08-05-2016, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by mkw1962 View Post
I do not understand why all these Cubs are in the All Star Game, sure they looked awesome back in April and May, I have never seen a total team collapse like this.
Bryant- he deserves to go he is looking good.
Rizzo- he is up and down starting to put it together.
Zobrist- slumping at the wrong time.
Russell- slowly putting it together, still could be a lot better.
Fowler- hurt and out for the last month.
Arrietta- looking terrible since he stopped the juice.
Lester- has not looked good as of late.
Kris Bryant is the only one who really should be going, I love the Cubs and have my whole life but they really stink right now. They got our hopes up and now they came back down to reality.
If you've been a following the Cubs your whole life I find it hard to believe that you've never witnessed a total collapse like this. Fast forward to August and the lead is back to 9.5 despite Arrieta still struggling. As a Cubs fan I understand your pessimism, I won't believe they can win it all until I see it for myself but try to have a little faith. A slump midseason hardly qualifies as a total collapse.

Part of this disappointment is the fact that the media kept making all these outrageous claims that they were on pace to do this and that and comparing them to the '27 Yankees, it's baseball "on pace" usually doesn't mean shit, especially in May.
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