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  #1  
Old 05-30-2016, 09:09 AM
peter_midnight peter_midnight is offline
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Default Run-ins, ridiculous DQs, & Backstage Vignettes need to go

I have not watched wrestling of ANY kind since WWE made Brock Lesnar a regular guy by having him do dumb things like throw a piece of the car Jamie Noble bought him halfway across the ramp. One thing I think started this descent (among others) is the suspension of disbelief for the ridiculous. It's 2016, why are run-ins still tolerated by wrestling organizations? What I mean is that okay, we all sort of accept them as fans, but from a logic point of view, how does a run-in not get heavily fined or result in a permanent suspension in this day and age? It's done on camera so even if the referee doesn't initially see it, it's not like they couldn't have brought an instant replay rule into effect in this day and age.

Next, why are ridiculous DQs even tolerated by the organization? I remember back in the day when Jack Tunney would flip over the slightest infraction, but nowadays you have guys using baseball bats, sledgehammers, what have you and not even as much as a 30-day suspension without pay. It's not like we don't have real life examples of this either. Go look at Mike Tyson fights post prison and you'll see tons of in-ring brawls, controversial finishes that resulted in fines, suspensions, licenses being revoked, and rematches. Floyd Mayweather has done the same thing, so why hasn't wrestling evolved?

Finally, what is the purpose of a backstage vignette? Are the people on camera supposed to ignore that a camera is there? How stupid does the babyface look when the heels are plainly scheming on camera and they still don't know that they're being set-up? Mark Madden once suggested a Quality Control department to ask these sorts of questions and I think this needs to be addressed.

You can't say it hasn't been done to great success either. All Japan had an entire decade of success by doing something like this whereas pretty much all matches had clean finishes up until Baba himself died in 1999. And that Chris Jericho argument of Japanese fans are so much smarter doesn't hold up either. If you talk to Japanese fans of the previous eras (ages 40 and up), they'll talk of wrestling as a sport. I meet many native Japanese in my profession and almost all of them watched when Inoki and later Riki Choshu were on top. They said it was pretty hard to tell if the show was fake until things like the ref ignoring outside interference that was obvious happened.

I feel that so much potential has been lost because wrestling has taken all of it's tools away from itself. Don't get me wrong, by my logic a steel cage match becomes unnecessary, but I think that is the logical evolution to keep adults interested. Places like the WWE almost have to market to kids because they're the only ones capable of suspending disbelief this much.
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  #2  
Old 05-30-2016, 10:13 AM
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Isn't this thread about 30 years too late?

Those things are tolerated by management because management works for or is ownership. Ownership likes the chaos. They think it is good theater and will bring in more eyes and more money. They pretend to stand for order and sport but it is very clear they are most interested in their own self interests and the wrestlers are pawns in their game. It is very simple.

I enjoy some of the drama. I enjoy some of the ridiculous characters. WWE isn't for everyone, it is mostly geared towards boys. It is not geared to you, but I would argue that you should have figured this out 30 years ago.
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Old 05-30-2016, 02:03 PM
peter_midnight peter_midnight is offline
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Originally Posted by George Steele's Barber View Post
Isn't this thread about 30 years too late?

Those things are tolerated by management because management works for or is ownership. Ownership likes the chaos. They think it is good theater and will bring in more eyes and more money. They pretend to stand for order and sport but it is very clear they are most interested in their own self interests and the wrestlers are pawns in their game. It is very simple.

I enjoy some of the drama. I enjoy some of the ridiculous characters. WWE isn't for everyone, it is mostly geared towards boys. It is not geared to you, but I would argue that you should have figured this out 30 years ago.
15 years ago it was geared toward the 18-34 yr old demographic. 20-25 years ago women made up a good majority of the audience (up to 60% according to Jim Cornette). Your argument is invalid.

Also, is it really 30 years too late? WCW was disqualifying guys for throwing people over the top rope as recent as 1996.

Last edited by peter_midnight : 05-30-2016 at 02:07 PM.
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Old 05-31-2016, 05:24 PM
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If you push pro wrestling as a sport, it looks even dumber because everyone knows it's choreographed entertainment. If you take yourself too seriously, you insult your audience's intelligence. Embracing the entertainment aspect helps the audience "play along".

The run ins, the backstage vignettes, etc are all parts of character.

Would you want a basketball movie that is a very realistic 2 hour, run of the mill 97-85 basketball game? No, that'd be boring.

There are promotions that scratch the itch you're looking for if you look though.
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  #5  
Old 05-31-2016, 07:02 PM
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I do see where Mr Midnight is coming from, and some things in this respect do rile me as well, such as at Extreme Rules when Ric Flair was banned from ringside for the Women's Championship match. When Dana Brooke interfered, she did so by enacting Flair's ring entrance, including theme music. Yet the match was allowed to continue. Little things like that don't make sense to me. It was bloody obvious that Brooke was there to distract Natalya, so logically the referee should have thrown the match out.

On the other hand, general run-ins do have a purpose, however, especially when they happen a lot. Taking the Natalya v Charlotte example again, the constant outside interference from Flair meant that, storyline-wise, he was barred from ringside. Similarly, most steel cage matches throughout history have been set-up based on a similar premise.

Certain things do need to change to make wrestling more logical and find its niche somewhere between the way it is now and the way Midnight suggests it should be
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  #6  
Old 06-06-2016, 10:46 PM
peter_midnight peter_midnight is offline
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Originally Posted by Wrestlingaholic View Post
I do see where Mr Midnight is coming from, and some things in this respect do rile me as well, such as at Extreme Rules when Ric Flair was banned from ringside for the Women's Championship match. When Dana Brooke interfered, she did so by enacting Flair's ring entrance, including theme music. Yet the match was allowed to continue. Little things like that don't make sense to me. It was bloody obvious that Brooke was there to distract Natalya, so logically the referee should have thrown the match out.

On the other hand, general run-ins do have a purpose, however, especially when they happen a lot. Taking the Natalya v Charlotte example again, the constant outside interference from Flair meant that, storyline-wise, he was barred from ringside. Similarly, most steel cage matches throughout history have been set-up based on a similar premise.

Certain things do need to change to make wrestling more logical and find its niche somewhere between the way it is now and the way Midnight suggests it should be
Okay, a perfect example of what I'm talking about is back in the early 2000s. I watched HHH get dropped 50 feet in a car and come back the next week without a scratch. Yet, I'm supposed to believe that tearing a quad in a wrestling match is supposed to have kept him out for a year?

The Rock nearly got killed by Hollywood Hogan in the semi truck, but somehow he gets legitimately hurt in a wrestling match?

These two examples are actually paraphrasing listener emails on the Wrestling Observer show back in the early 2000s. It's crazy to think that smart marks no longer feel this way because we certainly did throughout most of the Monday Night Wars. Wrestlecrap the website is literally based off of this kind of thinking.
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  #7  
Old 06-07-2016, 04:44 AM
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The only one I agree with you on are backstage segments. When I watched TNA the way they shot their backstage segments was far better (talents knowing cameras were present, thus cameramen would try to remain hidden whilst filming)

DQs and runins serve a purpose, they allow heels to get heat and feuds to continue. I don't think adopting All Japan's "cleaninishes only" policy would work in today's era, because people would become bored with wrestlers either repeatedly beating others or 50/50 booking trading wins back and forth (which happened a lot in All Japan). But if everyone knows it's fake, the onlynquestion people will ask is "How many more matches will these two have" DQ's and runins add variety in potential match outcomes.
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Old 06-07-2016, 06:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ヒュー G. レックション View Post
The only one I agree with you on are backstage segments. When I watched TNA the way they shot their backstage segments was far better (talents knowing cameras were present, thus cameramen would try to remain hidden whilst filming)

DQs and runins serve a purpose, they allow heels to get heat and feuds to continue. I don't think adopting All Japan's "cleaninishes only" policy would work in today's era, because people would become bored with wrestlers either repeatedly beating others or 50/50 booking trading wins back and forth (which happened a lot in All Japan). But if everyone knows it's fake, the onlynquestion people will ask is "How many more matches will these two have" DQ's and runins add variety in potential match outcomes.
But they weren't using run-ins for every other match back in the 80s or even before Vince Russo started booking. Why is this now pretty much standard? I know the Horsemen did it a lot in the NWA, but the WWF didn't have run-ins that much from what I remember. I remember watching WWF Superstars and maybe once a month you had a run-in at best (it could have been less than that to be honest, it was that rare).

Also, whatever happened to heels just cheating and getting away with it? I watched Floyd Mayweather sucker punch a guy during a referee break that resulted in a knockout that really pissed fans off. To me, somebody could be creative in that regard and book a finish that draws heat, yet doesn't insult our intelligence. I'm not saying that the WWE has to adopt All Japan's policy, but what I am saying is that a version of what I am suggesting has worked somewhere in the world. 50/50 booking in All Japan? I'm sorry, but Misawa was not losing 50/50 against a lot of those guys so I don't know where you get those numbers from and they were selling out the Tokyo dome so you can't say it didn't work. That's my point is somebody went with it and it worked. I think Johnny Ace tried to get it implemented in WCW, but Russo and Ferrara stopped after 3 weeks in WCW 2000. There was a period during the New Blood run when they banned all outside interference and I always wondered if that was influenced by Johnny Ace having just come from All Japan. Ironically, it improved the product quite a bit, but Russo couldn't book just wrestling so we were back to non-sense in no time.
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  #9  
Old 06-09-2016, 06:10 PM
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My 80s knowledge isn't great but didn't they just do count outs and DQs in most big matches? They also did a ton of squash matches which usually have clean finishes.

WWE can't do a show full of squashes anymore because no one would watch. That means they have to do matches with names most of the show. Meaning that usually they do matches where both guys can't afford a loss.

I think they are supposed to ignore the camera. Kayfabe you could say not everyone is watching the show. Or do what Vince did once, yell at everyone who tried to tell him that HHH was planning something (he wouldn't listen so it made sense he didn't see it coming).

Why would any heel boss care about run-ins? A face boss shouldn't tolerate it but a heel one probably wouldn't care.
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