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  #1  
Old 01-23-2016, 07:38 PM
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Default Kevin Owens could have already been huge/credible enough to face Brock Lesnar.

By King of the Ring 2002, it was patent that the WWE/Vince had chosen Brock as their next top guy, considering how he was booked in the first four months since his advent and considering the departure of The Rock and Austin, followed by his KOTR victory. He was the next big thing- the first of his kind the wrestling world had ever seen- ferocious, agile, proportionate, muscular, substantial, and with an athletic/amateur background shared and rivalled by none in the wrestling world besides Kurt Angle.

All they needed was to lend him a little legitimacy and credibility(insofar as legitimacy and credibility are capable of existing in FAKE wrestling), and that he was indeed the next big thing and their next guy. Hulk Hogan was thus used. The Rock lost cleanly at Summerslam, and it was official, Brock Lesnar was the real deal. This was followed by further legitimization when he defeated The Undertaker inside Hell In A Cell, cleanly and decisively.

That's how you create stars. Imagine instead, hypothetically, that there was only one world title and HHH doesn't want to let go of the championship and that Brock spent 2002 fighting Chris Benoit and Eddie Guerrero for the US championship, before winning the Rumble in 2003 or later.

That is exactly how the WWE screw up performers today. Obviously, nobody really, practicably can claim the traits, size, experience, or sheer potential of a Brock Lesnar. It's never really going to happen. IMO, the closest thing we got is KO, whom I didn't even know of, besides having read Mark Madden's eulogy as to how talented he was, but fat, and thus how he would suck in the WWE(this was 2 years ago, when Steen worked for ROH). And even KO has just this one major defect(which isn't even a defect in my eyes)- that he's chubby, fat, or basically NON-MUSCULAR. That's it. But apart from that, I see sheer talent and even compensation for not being as muscular as Brock in his having such a fabulous personality/charisma/microphone talent.

Now, the sole point I want to make in this thread is how he could've been the next big thing by now, if and only if this had happened:-

Legitimization by way of KO winning the feud/US championship at Battleground(a match he lost to Cena and thus making it Cena 2- Owens 1), defeating Randy Orton or some other established star at Summerslam, as well as being the gladiator who destroyed dozens and dozens of small/midcard wrestlers. Had this happened, I can totally vision him winning the Royal Rumble and/or WWE WHC, and thus officially becoming the "next big thing". Hell, they can push Roman fucking Reigns all they want, but Roman Reigns doesn't have "it". Roman Reigns vs Brock Lesnar sucked back then, and it will suck if it happens again. In fact, since the defeat of John Cena, KO was the only next best thing who could've "been the one" to dethrone Lesnar.

We all know how KO is chasing the IC title now. I have no problem with KO being a defending-reigning IC/US champion or challenger. I just think the WWE has failed to utilize this opportunity as a result of which they WILL suffer come Wrestlemania 32, one way or another. Kevin Owens and Brock Lesnar for the WWE WHC was THE MATCH, period. Of course, it may or may not happen now, in 2020 or something.

It has been numerously referred as the Era of Midcard guys/50-50 booking. But when John Cena has to be the one who wins all the final matches, or 2-3 matches out of 4 instead of Rusev or KO, there are no legitimate, credible, undisputed stars. None besides Brock Lesnar anyway. And they should appropriately call it 75-25 booking in Cena's case.

I damn near made up my mind yesterday that I would quit the WWE/Wrestling, since it seems pointless to me. I like Cesaro. Cesaro won the Battle Royal at WM 30 and he did nothing remotely prominent afterwards. Rusev lost his first major feud to John Cena. And now instead of a fearsome warrior and a champion, we have a big scary-looking intimidatingly strong guy being mocked by Chris Jericho the goofball. I liked Damien Sandow. Damien Sandow doesn't even exist anymore. I like Kevin Owens and I'm damn sure they'll take another few years to allow him to fulfill his potential and be champion, like CM Punk did/was. And they already ruined any chance at his legitimization and further elevation when he lost the feud to John Cena anyway.

All we have is a bunch of mid-carders and "potential" stars in Bray Wyatt, Rusev, and the most brilliant of them all- Kevin Steen. And don't even get me started on Bray Wyatt and his tragic trajectory since debuting 2 years ago! But hey, Wrestlemania sells like Mcdonalds Hamburgers. They can always rely on The Rock, Sting, The Undertaker, so who needs legitimate stars. And hell, Roman Reigns is still around.

Last edited by RomanfreakinReigns : 01-23-2016 at 08:02 PM.
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  #2  
Old 01-23-2016, 08:05 PM
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The guy hasn't been on the roster a full year yet. He beat John Cena, someone who is the front runner of WWE for 10 years now, in arguably the best match of the year. Then he had an IC title run and is currently feuding with the hottest babyface on the roster, there's no missed opportunity. I don't get your gripe.

WWE did a good job getting Seth Rollins over as the top heel and was in the midst of building up Reigns - you wanted them to shove their homegrown talent aside for KO? While I believe Owens is a better worker, he doesn't have that appeal like Reigns does and Reigns screams superstar when lined up next to Owens, he has that look WWE adores.

I don't understand why Cesaro is being held down other than Vince believing he's boring. I think he would be the one feuding Ambrose or Del Rio had he not got hurt, which potentially halted Kalisto's push. Everything happens for a reason - whose to say Owens would be in any title picture had it not been for these injuries?

I think Owens is on the right pace.
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  #3  
Old 01-23-2016, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by J.J. View Post
The guy hasn't been on the roster a full year yet. He beat John Cena, someone who is the front runner of WWE for 10 years now, in arguably the best match of the year. Then he had an IC title run and is currently feuding with the hottest babyface on the roster, there's no missed opportunity. I don't get your gripe. I think Owens is on the right pace.
I respectfully disagree here, and I'll tell you where I'm coming from and I sure would like you to see the complete picture. I never said KO is being buried, or isn't on the right pace or anything else.

Let's begin with the John Cena part. He won the first match alright. As I pointed out, How does winning the first match against an established star(usually John Cena) and losing the next 2 matches in KO's case, and 3 in Rusev's case(WM, Extreme Rules, Payback), benefit the said wrestler? THREE FUCKING LOSSES. KO won the first match, lost the second one which was supposedly Cena's "redemption". But Cena didn't need the third win, whether the US title was involved or not. But since the US title was involved, and since the WWE's job is to make credible opponents for their top guy(Brock Lesnar), why make all their "potential" future stars lose feuds to Cena- Bray Wyatt, Rusev, and KO ? See the problem? 75-25 booking, Era of midcarders and no stars? Cena didn't need the win against Owens for the 3rd time because KO is the future, Cena is the past. John Cena fans and all the kids who buy his Tshirts don't need a reason to keep buying those Tshirts or merchandise. Or even a reason to have faith in him. He's the guy who was always there, who is always there and will be there. He lost to Lesnar and ever since then, he's done. The WWE's job is to groom the next big thing, which IMO, was KO.

And miraculously, KO's career has hardly suffered after losing the feud, he became IC champ and is doing the best work on the roster IMO, for months now, against Ambrose. Maybe it's not so miraculous considering the sheer talent and charisma he possesses. But what about Rusev and Bray Wyatt?? 75-25 booking. No one benefits.

As for the "only been around for a year" argument, I clearly prefaced the thread with a description of Brock Lesnar's early career, becoming WWE champ within what- 5 months? of debuting on the main roster. In Kevin Owens case, at least he had an extensive experience of like 8 years? before debuting on NXT. And clearly, he could've been groomed to be the next "next big thing", and IMO, him not having Brock's physique was/is irrelevant. What would you rather have, a big star who could potentially beat Brock at WM 32 in Kevin Owens, or a guy floundering in the mid-card with Dean Ambrose of all people? Seriously.

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Originally Posted by J.J. View Post
WWE did a good job getting Seth Rollins over as the top heel and was in the midst of building up Reigns - you wanted them to shove their homegrown talent aside for KO? While I believe Owens is a better worker, he doesn't have that appeal like Reigns does and Reigns screams superstar when lined up next to Owens, he has that look WWE adores.
I give you this. I omitted the fact that I am seeing things in retrospect whereas the WWE was in "We have Seth Rollins and Roman Reigns, our future is bright" mode. But my argument of 3 potential "stars" of which I chose Kevin Steen as a modern-day equivalent of Brock Lesnar from 2002, being nowhere close to being credible/legitimate challengers against Brock Lesnar on account of losing 2 or 3 subsequent matches with John Cena still holds. Aren't Rusev and Bray Wyatt's careers a testimony to that?

I am also somewhat loath to agree with the view that Reigns has wider appeal. The greatest fact which hinders most talented wrestlers(Punk, Bryan, Kevin Owens, Chris Hero, Cesaro) when you put them next to Roman Reigns is that they don't look like Roman Reigns, and hence, they don't have "the look". But does it mean they have nothing else to offer? Contrarily, Roman Reigns to me seems to have little character/personality beyond his intensity/good looks. Daniel Bryan was amazing as a jerk boyfriend in 2012, notwithstanding the fact that he's the greatest wrestler ever after Kurt Angle and Bret Hart. Punk...I could go on and on. Get the picture? So yeah, I get it why Reigns was pushed. So contrarily, albeit a bit paradoxically, KO is more appealing if you overlook the fact that he has personality but not a muscular physique/chiseled face.

Last edited by RomanfreakinReigns : 01-23-2016 at 09:19 PM.
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  #4  
Old 01-23-2016, 10:06 PM
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When Owens debuted on the roster my feeling is that he came in at kind of a bad time. The heel of the moment was Rollins, and they were pushing Reigns as the new face of the company. There was no room to strap a rocket on Owens and let him go. Besides they had already seen what happened the year before when they tried to do the same thing with Reigns and how that rocket crashed and burned.

Owens will get there, maybe not on your timetable, but he will get there. And I'm really tired of all this talk about his body type not being the norm. For a guy shaped the way he is, he can go in the ring and like Luke Harper, who acts like a cruiserweight half the time, Owens can do things that you wouldn't think possible.

No he isn't cut like Cena, Reigns, Rollins and Lesnar, but he's been able to work around it, and does quite well in the ring. His mic work is superb and he's one of the best in the WWE right now. Timing is his problem and as soon as the focus comes off Reigns hopefully they will start thinking about the rest of the roster. Mind you if Daniel Bryan comes back before Mania, all bets are off, everyone will be fighting for second place behind him.
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  #5  
Old 01-23-2016, 10:37 PM
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I'm kind of in agreement with OP on this one, in the sense that Owens had the potential to take over the WWE just as quickly as Brock Lesnar did upon his debut. He had the booking in NXT for WWE to bring him up and turn him into a legitimate superstar. He had come in, destroyed all the top talents in NXT, captured the NXT title after 2 months by literally forcing the ref to stop the match, and than beat John Cena in his debut. To be honest, even at that time it was obvious that Kevin Owens gets it. I don't think he necessarily needed any experience or "progressing" when he came up. He proved that he was ready to be a serious player right away, but as Dark Lady said, he came up in the middle of Rollins' push as the top heel of the company... bad timing.

HAD WWE given Owens the win over Cena in the US title rubber match, he could very well have continued his momentum through others like maybe Orton and Jericho. For that to have happened though, there needed to be almost a unanimous agreement on pushing Owens as your next guy, and don't be fooled, Owens was never meant to be "the man" or even the co-man in WWE. Brock Lesnar was a unique situation and he was only pushed as hard as he was because WWE needed somebody to replace The Rock very quickly, and because he was a Mcmahon's wet dream. D1 National Wrestling Champion, 265 pounds of pure muscle, and young as hell at the time. Don't expect anybody to get pushed like Brock Lesnar again.

But with that being said, Owens is in a good spot right now. He's done more than most rookies on the main roster, and it's clear that he's going to be a big player in the near future. Sure he could have been given the rocket ship instantly, but I think he'll get where he's supposed to be eventually anyway.
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Last edited by OYDK : 01-23-2016 at 10:42 PM.
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  #6  
Old 01-23-2016, 10:40 PM
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How is he not the next big thing by now? Because he hasn't entered the world title picture? I'll agree there have been some strange choices with him lately, (losing to Neville for example), but losing the Cena feud wasn't one of them.

Do rockets to the top make stars? It worked for Brock, but he's a once in a lifetime athlete. Brock started at the top and wound up burning out within two years and walking away. Sheamus was similarly pushed incredibly hard to the top, and has been dogged by criticisms of never getting over.

I'll admit Owens has paid his dues outside of WWE, but WWE caters to casual fans who have missed that indie career. Aren't careers better for both the talent and the fans better if the wrestler is made to pay their dues?

Edge and Shawn Michaels both had very long careers. Rock and Austin had comparably shorter careers, but were far bigger stars. One leaving due to his fame and marketability, the other leaving due to injury and booking.

Is Owens not ready to face Lesnar? He's been proven capable of beating John Cena, a feat Rollins has never preformed clean.

Lesnar needs an opponent. The top stars in WWE right now that aren't on the injured reserve list are: Lesnar, Undertaker, Triple H, Reigns, Wyatt, and Owens. Three are stars of the past, three are stars of the future. These six will face some combination of each other at the big PPV.

You have to immediately remove the been there done that match ups from this equation. Reigns seems destined to meet Triple H (most likely for the title), and Undertaker has faced everyone involved except Owens and Reigns.

I don't see WWE shoehorning in an Undertaker heel turn, so that means Owens locks up with either Lesnar or Owens. Wyatt faced Undertaker twice (losing both times) in 2015, leaving the freshest match ups to be Lesnar vs Wyatt, and Owens vs Undertaker.

This is where you build your new stars. Regardless of who is or isn't ready, Lesnar and Undertaker need to lay down. The injuries have shown a weakened roster, and the booking over the last decade has lead to a situation where new stars are lacking.

If Owens isn't ready to be the next big thing, let him become that by going over Lesnar or Undertaker.
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  #7  
Old 01-23-2016, 11:08 PM
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How is he not the next big thing by now? Because he hasn't entered the world title picture? I'll agree there have been some strange choices with him lately, (losing to Neville for example), but losing the Cena feud wasn't one of them.
He is quite fantastic right now, probably the best overall/all-round wrestler on the roster besides Seth Rollins(who is absent). But he isn't the "next big thing" in that even though he is getting an opportunity to showcase himself in one of the most personal and brilliant feuds for the IC title ever, he clearly should/could be doing something bigger, especially during an injury-depleted roster.

Also, I disagree with you implying that it's okay he lost the feud with Cena. In fact, KO should've precisely been the one who WON the US title and/or the last match/feud with Cena, since Rusev didn't, and Bray Wyatt didn't either. That way, KO could've been the next "big thing" who not only aggressively kicks ass and makes declarations like "I'm going to take your US title" but also backs them up, unlike Bray Wyatt who is like a fucking clown who claims to do this and that and ends up losing all his matches, and unlike Rusev as well. Tell me how is that wrong? Also, I sort of used a Brock Lesnar analogy in that, if Lesnar had been booked similarly in 2002, would there really be any legitimacy to his being "the next big thing" ? We would have had HHH as the world champ and Brock floundering around fighting in tag team matches for a year or so..instead. So yes, IMO, KO could've been booked better and him winning the 3rd match/feud was necessary for that, especially when John Cena doesn't need to win every fucking feud involving a rising new superstar in 2015, and yet he did.

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Do rockets to the top make stars? It worked for Brock, but he's a once in a lifetime athlete. Brock started at the top and wound up burning out within two years and walking away. Sheamus was similarly pushed incredibly hard to the top, and has been dogged by criticisms of never getting over.
It also depends on how talented you are. KO, whose NXT stint, debut and subsequent matches with Cena, and everything else I missed(I was sort of disconnected from the WWE until Sep/Oct '15), seems to me to be "more than ready" and talented than anyone I've ever seen, both in terms of in-ring skills and dynamism/charisma/personality/mic skills..and I felt so ever since I saw him for the first time in the last two months, as well as after watching his match against Cena from Battleground which I only did so yesterday. (I still haven't seen their match from Elimination Chamber).

Whereas Sheamus just isn't/wasn't that good/talented. Incidentally, Kurt Angle was similarly pushed within the first year and it worked well because Kurt had that talent, and where he didn't, he worked at it and developed his art- that of talking, the character, and so on. But Jack Swagger didn't quite succeed did he?

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Lesnar needs an opponent. The top stars in WWE right now that aren't on the injured reserve list are: Lesnar, Undertaker, Triple H, Reigns, Wyatt, and Owens. Three are stars of the past, three are stars of the future. These six will face some combination of each other at the big PPV.

You have to immediately remove the been there done that match ups from this equation. Reigns seems destined to meet Triple H (most likely for the title), and Undertaker has faced everyone involved except Owens and Reigns.

I don't see WWE shoehorning in an Undertaker heel turn, so that means Owens locks up with either Lesnar or Owens. Wyatt faced Undertaker twice (losing both times) in 2015, leaving the freshest match ups to be Lesnar vs Wyatt, and Owens vs Undertaker.

This is where you build your new stars. Regardless of who is or isn't ready, Lesnar and Undertaker need to lay down. The injuries have shown a weakened roster, and the booking over the last decade has lead to a situation where new stars are lacking.

If Owens isn't ready to be the next big thing, let him become that by going over Lesnar or Undertaker.
I agree here. I think KO is the best/superior choice to face and defeat Brock, with or without the WWE WHC on the line. But IMO, even though KO comes across as strong/aggressive and is a superb, dazzlingly beautiful in-ring performer, he would've been more legitimate/credible a threat had he been booked in a different way. But lets see. I would still buy it if he were to face and defeat Brock at WM 32. But if they go with Lesnar vs Wyatt, by all means, be prepared to see Lesnar suplex them all and win.

Last edited by RomanfreakinReigns : 01-23-2016 at 11:11 PM.
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  #8  
Old 01-23-2016, 11:16 PM
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Mind you if Daniel Bryan comes back before Mania, all bets are off, everyone will be fighting for second place behind him.
I would love that. Bryan is a tremendous, superb wrestler and I'd be all eyes if they do a Bryan vs Lesnar for the WWE WHC, or even Bryan vs Reigns vs Lesnar. I don't even care if he doesn't seem congruous beside Brock, on account of the sheer size difference between them.

We must wait anxiously another 24 hours before we experience any certainty as to what will constitute the main event of WM 32 and whether Daniel Bryan will return or not. Yesterday I was wondering...if Bryan doesn't return or they don't allow so..before WM 32, he may never really return to the WWE.

Last edited by RomanfreakinReigns : 01-23-2016 at 11:21 PM.
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Old 01-23-2016, 11:27 PM
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The fact he went over Cena clean as a heel should speak volumes is what I'm trying to get you to understand. How often does that happen? This isn't Johnny Curtis debuting as Fandango and defeating Chris Jericho, this is Owens defeating the face of the company. I feel he's being handled properly, these injuries will be beneficial to him the most I feel.
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Old 01-23-2016, 11:56 PM
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I don't get some people they complain when people get a rocket shoved up their ass and complain when people don't.

Owens has had an amazing time so far on the main roster, the best debut and beyond I've seen in a while. He's beaten the face of the company in his debut match, how many people can say that?

He had an amazing IC title run and him & Ambrose have been essential in making that Championship mean something again.

He's now being groomed to move up to the main event where he'll stay for a very long time.

People are so impatient for their favorites to get shot up the card immediately not realizing or caring that it would damage them in the long run. Say they did exactly what everyone is clamoring for and he wins (or already has won) the WWE World Title. Then what? He wins it a few more times over the next few years and when the next batch of people come up from NXT he's shoved aside for the next guy with a rocket in his ass and has nothing more to accomplish.

I like Owens to much to see that happen so I am 100% content with the way he's being booked right now.
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