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  #1  
Old 10-17-2015, 09:55 PM
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Default Where would wrestling be today if WCW stayed in business and WWF folded?

Personally I think WCW 95-98 was the best wrestling years from the great heavyweight card, the great cruserweights, and tag teams the WWF was so blame. The WWE got desperate a they went from pg to showing breast and using very explicit content. While WCW was edgee but stayed PG-13 which I liked. But what do some of you think the wrestling industry would be if WCW was still here and WWE closed it doors?
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Old 10-18-2015, 12:10 AM
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I think the wrestling industry would've been better. For one, WCW didn't have ego when it came to booking and didn't play politics of "this guy is from WWE so we should bury him to make our roster look superior." If a guy was over and popular from another company, they put them over rightfully. WCW brought in Hogan, Hall, Nash, and Savage and gave them the ball. With that said if WCW was to buy WWE and do an invasion angle, I would bet my money that they would do it correctly and gain WWE's audience. WWE buying WCW and refusing to put over WCW main event guys ruined the invasion angle. (NOTE: I said WCW main event guys. So don't come in here and name Rey Mysterio). WWE burying every top WCW guy including Sting in 2015 is why they never gained WCW's fanbase. The fans knew it was bullcrap and didn't come over to watch WWE just to see guys like DDP lose.

I would trust WCW's mindset on booking an invasion angle over WWE anyday. I think things would've been better. There would have been a crop of different wrestlers all fighting for the top spot which I'm sure would be better than the current crap of top guys in WWE today. Had WCW lived, I could see guys like Jinrak or Sean O' Haire becoming good singles wrestlers or even main eventers. Lance Storm probably could have gone further in his career had WWE never bought WCW. It's hard to tell because while WCW lost control in the 2000s, they still had so much upside
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  #3  
Old 10-18-2015, 01:06 AM
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During the Invasion, the top WCW guys they got were Booker T and DDP. After that, the drop-off to the next highest guy was enormous. They didn't get the WCW roster from 96-98, they got what they could afford at the time from the WCW 2001 roster. Think about WWE at the time. They had Rock and Austin. They were at levels 500000 times above the entire Invasion roster.

DDP was already in his 40s during the Invasion, he wasn't going to be put over huge.

Sting lost at Wrestlemania due to thinking it was his last match. Sting then put over a young guy. Not buried.

Lance Storm has said many times that his multi-champion reign wasn't a push. It was something the booker (I think Russo) thought would be cool. He lost the titles very quickly afterwards.

Ric Flair seemed to be used effectively in his first WWE run.

You guys must be forgetting the last few years of WCW. Once all of their main event guys got old (well, older since they were already old), they never really attempted to replace them. Their TV was unwatchable from mid 1999 on. WCW doesn't play politics? What? The 1997 Starrcade finish. Way to beat the evil force by technically losing first. The Giant vs Kevin Nash match that was supposed to happen at Starrcade 97 (Nash didn't want to job, claimed he had a heart attack and didn't show, then beat The Giant next month and never got in trouble). Pretty much everything Hogan did. Kevin Nash, booker. Finger Poke of Doom. I could go on and on.

Also WCW before the NWO was not very good (in regards to the Hogan WCW era).

If WWE went out of business and WCW didn't, the wrestling business on a global level would be dead (not on a domestic level, but globally there would be no number 1). The ratings didn't just decline due to WCW fans no longer watching. It was due to the war being over. The cultural fad faded. The bubble popped.
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  #4  
Old 10-18-2015, 07:36 AM
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The wrestling world would have faded into obscurity mid-00s if WCW had won the rating war, IMO

Once guys like Hogan and Nash started dropping off, their roster would've thinned out and people would've lost interest. WCW didn't create new stars like WWE did, they just signed mega-established names and pushed them through the roof. WWE won the ratings war because they were the better show. Better character development, better payoff from angles. WCW made the mistake of letting the super-established names constantly book themselves into top positions on the card. When these names started winding down their careers, there would have been massive voids in the roster that the WCW originals couldn't fill (in my opinion). To say the industry would be better if the inferior company came out on top is absolutely moronic, and annoyingly, impossible to disprove.
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Last edited by Woodstuff : 10-18-2015 at 07:39 AM.
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  #5  
Old 10-18-2015, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by therockiswwf View Post
If WWE went out of business and WCW didn't, the wrestling business on a global level would be dead (not on a domestic level, but globally there would be no number 1). The ratings didn't just decline due to WCW fans no longer watching. It was due to the war being over. The cultural fad faded. The bubble popped.
I tend to agree with this. I can't imagine the results being reversed with WCW buying WWE in 01, considering how bad WCW was from early 99 till the end. Hypothetically, let's say WWE went out of business in 97-98 when they were at their worst and WCW was at their best. Bishoff and creative had no end game when it came to the nwo. The same top wrestlers would play politics and guys like Nash would still have creative control. Russo wouldn't need to be brought in which makes us believe WCW won't go under themselves.

I can see WCW and wrestling still being around today, but not even half as popular as WWE is today, which says a lot since WWE isn't even half as popular as they were 15 years ago. Wrestling would not be as mainstream and it would be similar to how it was pre-Hogan era. WCW was a company that grew too big and too fast. Bishoff was creative and knew how to get better ratings, but he didn't have the business sense and ability that Vince had to take wrestling to the next level or at least either sustain the popularity or damage control to keep wrestling big even though it's in a major decline like it is now.
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  #6  
Old 10-18-2015, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by TellMeWhy View Post
I think the wrestling industry would've been better. For one, WCW didn't have ego when it came to booking and didn't play politics of "this guy is from WWE so we should bury him to make our roster look superior." If a guy was over and popular from another company, they put them over rightfully. WCW brought in Hogan, Hall, Nash, and Savage and gave them the ball. With that said if WCW was to buy WWE and do an invasion angle, I would bet my money that they would do it correctly and gain WWE's audience. WWE buying WCW and refusing to put over WCW main event guys ruined the invasion angle. (NOTE: I said WCW main event guys. So don't come in here and name Rey Mysterio). WWE burying every top WCW guy including Sting in 2015 is why they never gained WCW's fanbase. The fans knew it was bullcrap and didn't come over to watch WWE just to see guys like DDP lose.

I would trust WCW's mindset on booking an invasion angle over WWE anyday. I think things would've been better. There would have been a crop of different wrestlers all fighting for the top spot which I'm sure would be better than the current crap of top guys in WWE today. Had WCW lived, I could see guys like Jinrak or Sean O' Haire becoming good singles wrestlers or even main eventers. Lance Storm probably could have gone further in his career had WWE never bought WCW. It's hard to tell because while WCW lost control in the 2000s, they still had so much upside
Are you joking or trying to be ironic... Of course they were political - but it was done at BOARDROOM/CONTRACT level, not in the locker room.

WCW was sunk the moment they offered Scott Hall and Nash "safe harbour" clauses on their deals... you probably don't remember or know them... that was the clause that said NO ONE in the company could be paid more than them, not Hogan, not Bret Hart, not Sting, Not Goldberg... once they had them, the others had to have them and any semblence of control WCW had over booking those talents was gone... they couldn't even offer "incentive" to a guy to take a loss because it meant others then had to be given the same regardless.

To say WWE buried every WCW guy in that period is also dead wrong.... Ron Simmons, Dustin Rhodes/Goldust, Mick Foley and of course Stone Cold and Triple H all became better known for their WWE careers than their WCW ones... guys like Big Show, Chris Jericho, Eddie, Benoit and Booker all got the title as well. The guys "buried" were the ones who either had a bad attitude like Kronik or Bagwell, were damaged goods to an extent like Steiner or who were just too old to make any real benefit like Sting and DDP were. DDP still got a US title, a Tag Title (With Kanyon) and a Mania match remember! Shane Helms got to beat THE ROCK!!! He was never going to a title but he got that moment... Billy Kidman got a good push, Lance Storm the same... Chavo...Jaimie Noble...all were around for a LONG time and had cruiser titles and tag titles... even Mike Awesome and Chuck Palumbo did ok... those who didn't... guys like Mike Sanders or Crowbar just weren't good enough.

Storm was NEVER World title material and he knew it, he made more money working for Vince than he did WCW and built his rep so he could become a trainer on HIS terms. Guys like Jindrak didn't lose out in the long term, he went to Mexico and made a fortune.

Even Goldberg got the title relatively quickly... this "jobbing of WCW guys" is an illusion. Think of the pre-buyout WWE guys who lost out because of it... guys like D-Lo, Godfather, R-Truth/K-Kwik and Steve Blackman...

here is only one guy who you could say "should have got the title" and that was Regal when he was King Of The Ring, but his own mistake killed that, not any WCW bias, indeed once Trips does take over it is pretty clear Regal is his #2 - and look at the make up of the agent/backstage team... Arn, Dusty, Johnny Ace, Hayes,Malenko... nearly to a man, WCW talents!

Vince never hated the WCW guys, but he preferred to remould them his way before using them - because he'd been burnt several times bringing talents over and it not working out when he tried to do as they had done "down south". He brought in Harley, he brought in The Brainbusters and Steiners, he brought in Flair and Dusty... and before you spout "Polka Dots", remember that Dusty was brought in hot, he just didn't get over as hoped/was disruptive at the time. He himself admitted later that he didn't give that run his best either...

From the moment those clauses were given to the Outsiders, WCW was dead... there was little to no chance of WCW winning, there was no "killer blow" they could strike - even if they got Taker, they'd have had to pay Nash, Hall and Hogan more as a result, it would have nulllified the gains and another talent like DDP or Booker would have been jettisoned, who Vince would have scooped up and done something with.


There was such a small window of opportunity for WCW and that was when Hogan signed originally - if they had been smarter and not hung the company on him and had some luck with Rude not being hurt (and them being able to convince him to stay, cos he was back to Titan with a title push to work Bret and co before that night) then they had a shot at a proper built run for Hogan... but they went for the short term/nostalgia game by signing washed up friends of Hogan rather than the talents they needed to get/keep. They HAD to give Nash and Hall those contracts cos otherwise, Nitro was going to fail very quickly. As shocking as Luger's return was, he wasn't good enough for either company as the top guy.

As a hypothetical, if WCW had won, the business as we know it is gone. Perhaps Vince licks his wounds for a year or two and buys another promotion or even UFC or a similar company... If they were going to win, WCW had to win by 1999 - and they didn't, the wheels were falling off and the moment Big Show and Jericho left and SID was hitting main events - you knew it...and they did too.
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  #7  
Old 10-18-2015, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THTRobtaylor
Are you joking or trying to be ironic... Of course they were political - but it was done at BOARDROOM/CONTRACT level, not in the locker room.
You don't mix politics with what's good for the fans. These type of politics is why WWE is sinking in 2015. You do what's good for business not based on ego. It was reported that after the invasion Kevin Dunn convinced Vince McMahon not to push WCW wrestlers or not have them win any matches against WWE guys because it would set the precedence to the audience that WCW was superior to WWE. WCW not being able to win a match made the invasion lopsided and killed the angle. You don't involve company politics when you own the company and talent that you're trying to create an angle and build interest in. It also didn't help that it was reported that Undertaker didn't want to put over DDP in their feud because of him being from WCW. The invasion angle was crucial because WWE stroking their own ego instead of doing what was right for business and creative (by letting WCW guys win big important matches) helped push the decline in prowrestling that wwe is still stuck in

Quote:
Originally Posted by THTRobtaylor
To say WWE buried every WCW guy in that period is also dead wrong.... Ron Simmons, Dustin Rhodes/Goldust, Mick Foley and of course Stone Cold and Triple H all became better known for their WWE careers than their WCW ones... guys like Big Show, Chris Jericho, Eddie, Benoit and Booker all got the title as well.
Outside of Booker T, everyone you named here were guys WCW fired or WCW guys that defected from WCW. I'm talking specifically about WCW talent that came over once WWE bought WCW.

Quote:
Originally Posted by THTRobtaylor
The guys "buried" were the ones who either had a bad attitude like Kronik or Bagwell, were damaged goods to an extent like Steiner or who were just too old to make any real benefit like Sting and DDP were. DDP still got a US title, a Tag Title (With Kanyon) and a Mania match remember! Shane Helms got to beat THE ROCK!!! He was never going to a title but he got that moment... Billy Kidman got a good push, Lance Storm the same... Chavo...Jaimie Noble...all were around for a LONG time and had cruiser titles and tag titles... even Mike Awesome and Chuck Palumbo did ok... those who didn't... guys like Mike Sanders or Crowbar just weren't good enough.
Man please. Even you yourself don't believe this crap yourself. WTF does DDP being "old" have to do with anything? DDP was about in his mid-40s but still one of WCW's recognizable stars that WWE could have done more with but instead chose to bury into mid-card obscurity. I mean how old is Kane? Kane is damn near 50 still main eventing. Undertaker is over 50 beating guys like Brock Lesnar. Stop it! Scott Steiner was over when he came to WWE yet they didn't capitalize on it. They were too busy building up HHH that the rest of the RAW brand and show suffered in quality. Notice I said WCW main eventer and here you go naming WCW mid-lowercard guys

Helms got stuck inside a stupid gimmick-waisted talent;Billy kidman did nothing of note in WWE except turn on Paul London on Smackdown-wasted talent; Lance Storm was given a gimmick on RAW where Stonecold as RAW commissioner would come out and chant "boring" during Lance Storm matches and bring out a pillow and snore on stage in the middle of all his matches. Lance Storm=wasted talent; Chuck Palumbo-Known for doing a semi-gay gimmick with Billy Gunn. Chuck=wasted talent. Mike Awesome-barely got any tv time. Wasted talent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by THTRobtaylor
Storm was NEVER World title material and he knew it, he made more money working for Vince than he did WCW and built his rep so he could become a trainer on HIS terms.
More WWE apologists excuses. Storm didn't become "World title material" because they were chanting boring at him every chance they got. Had they built and invested in him, he could have gone further. He wasn't bursting with personality but neither was Chris Benoit. He could have been another counterpart to Benoit but WWE chose to bury him because he was a WCW guy who came over after 2001. Storm's best run until this day was in WCW as the Canadian Heavyweight champion where he would come out and say, "If I could be serious for a minute."

Quote:
Originally Posted by THTRobtaylor
Guys like Jindrak didn't lose out in the long term, he went to Mexico and made a fortune.
Yes and that's ashame. He had to go to another country to make a name meanwhile he worked for the biggest company in his homecountry yet they couldn't give him a proper chance or do what they could do to utilize his talent and bring out the best.

Quote:
Originally Posted by THTRobtaylor
Even Goldberg got the title relatively quickly... this "jobbing of WCW guys" is an illusion.
Even Goldberg himself will tell you otherwise. Goldberg's character was damaged. He was barely protected. Almost every week, he was getting beat down by Evolution. He got overshadowed by HHH when he should have been the guy that RAW should have been built around. Goldberg was put to waste. Even a huge brand in WCW like nWo got put to waste! Like stop your WWE bias

Quote:
Originally Posted by THTRobtaylor
here is only one guy who you could say "should have got the title" and that was Regal when he was King Of The Ring, but his own mistake killed that, not any WCW bias,
Regal does not count. Regal came to WWE on his own before 2001. I'm talking specifically about guys that WWE punished and or did not give a fair shot too for working in WCW by the time they bought them out

Quote:
Originally Posted by THTRobtaylor
Arn, Dusty, Johnny Ace, Hayes,Malenko... nearly to a man, WCW talents
!

Come on man. Backstage agents are not part of the equation of what happened on screen about a decade and a half ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by THTRobtaylor
Vince never hated the WCW guys, but he preferred to remould them his way before using them - because he'd been burnt several times bringing talents over and it not working out when he tried to do as they had done "down south". He brought in Harley, he brought in The Brainbusters and Steiners, he brought in Flair and Dusty... and before you spout "Polka Dots", remember that Dusty was brought in hot, he just didn't get over as hoped/was disruptive at the time. He himself admitted later that he didn't give that run his best either...
Once again you're talking about WCW guys who came over to WWE before he bought WCW by naming Flair and Dusty. The only WCW main event guy he gave a shot to and repackaged was Booker T and Booker T was not as over as other WCW established main event guys. Vince took the opportunity and remolded Booker T. But he dropped the ball on guys like Steiner, DDP, and Goldberg period. He could've made more money out of those guys if he utilized them correctly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by THTRobtaylor
From the moment those clauses were given to the Outsiders, WCW was dead... there was little to no chance of WCW winning, there was no "killer blow"
WCW contracts have nothing to do with the subject of WWE treating WCW main event talent like crap and wasting the majority of WCW prospects

Last edited by TellMeWhy : 10-18-2015 at 11:27 AM.
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  #8  
Old 10-18-2015, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by therockiswwf
During the Invasion, the top WCW guys they got were Booker T and DDP. After that, the drop-off to the next highest guy was enormous. They didn't get the WCW roster from 96-98, they got what they could afford at the time from the WCW 2001 roster. Think about WWE at the time. They had Rock and Austin. They were at levels 500000 times above the entire Invasion roster.
So if WWE knew that they needed the top WCW guys for it to work, then why even have an invasion angle in the first place?? And since WWE still did the invasion angle, why not build up the WCW talent that is there to make for more of an interesting feud on television?

Quote:
Originally Posted by therockiswwf
DDP was already in his 40s during the Invasion, he wasn't going to be put over huge.
That's not an excuse. You still have 50yr old Kane and Undertaker being utilized in main events in 2015. Hell, didn't Hogan come to WWE and win the WWE title at age 50. Give me a break. WWE could have used DDP more than what they did

Quote:
Originally Posted by therockiswwf
Sting lost at Wrestlemania due to thinking it was his last match. Sting then put over a young guy. Not buried.
Please, everyone knows Stings intention was to come to WWE and face Undertaker not be a glorified jobber to HHH and then Seth Rollins. Sting never once said that WM would be his last match because in the back of his mind, his dream match and reason for coming to WWE was to face Undertaker.

Quote:
Originally Posted by therockiswwf
Ric Flair seemed to be used effectively in his first WWE run.
Yes his first WWE run before WWE bought WCW. I'm specifically talking about WCW main eventers getting the s**t end of the stick after WWE bought WCW in 2001. And even when Flair came to WWE after WCW's buyout, Flair was limited and became a chauffeur for HHH

Quote:
Originally Posted by therockiswwf
You guys must be forgetting the last few years of WCW. Once all of their main event guys got old (well, older since they were already old), they never really attempted to replace them. Their TV was unwatchable from mid 1999 on. WCW doesn't play politics? What? The 1997 Starrcade finish. Way to beat the evil force by technically losing first. The Giant vs Kevin Nash match that was supposed to happen at Starrcade 97 (Nash didn't want to job, claimed he had a heart attack and didn't show, then beat The Giant next month and never got in trouble). Pretty much everything Hogan did. Kevin Nash, booker. Finger Poke of Doom. I could go on and on.
I never said WCW didn't play politics kid but they didn't have the go like WWE to always stroke themselves. When a WWE guy like Hogan came to WCW, WCW rolled out the red carpet for him and made him the top guy with the world championship for the sake of business. WWE doesn't take top guys from anyone's promotion and immediately puts them over as world champion. Goldberg for instance should have won the World title on RAW immediately but instead he was just a main course for HHH to help HHH pad his resume of guys he has gone over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by therockiswwf
Also WCW before the NWO was not very good (in regards to the Hogan WCW era).
This is subjective!

Last edited by TellMeWhy : 10-18-2015 at 11:22 AM.
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Old 10-18-2015, 11:22 AM
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If WCW bought WWE, meaning Ted Turner buying WWE, Turner probably would've kept WWF running as it's own entity because Ted Turner would be aware that WWE has it's own audience and would capitalize on it. Ted Turner despite working with AOL in general is much smarter and more business savvy than Vince McMahon imo. Vince McMahon didn't capitalize on the audience of each promotion he bought. He let the fanbases of WCW and ECW disappear which hurt prowrestling in general. The smart thing Vince should have did was keep both WCW and ECW alive and keep them running as seperate entities with some small adjustments and gaining revenue from it. Instead he just bought them and let their audience die off when he could have made so much money if he played it smart. WWE in theory should have had a much bigger audience after he bought both companies but he failed and part of that goes back to the failed invasion angle and the atrocious bias WWE lopsided booking involved that I explained earlier!

Last edited by TellMeWhy : 10-18-2015 at 11:25 AM.
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Old 10-18-2015, 12:01 PM
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This is a tough question to answer because it would depend entirely on how WCW was able to win, and why the WWF ultimately went out of business. For this to happen, each comapny would have to operate differently and make critically different choices.

First thigns first, let's talk about why the WCW went out of business in real life. And I don't care what anybody fucking tell you, it wasn't because of the goddamn fingerpoke of doom, and it wasn't because of Vince Russo. Two main factors contributed to the demise of WCW.
1. Cost. Especially cost associated with talent. They were offering ridiculous big money contracts, and would sign anyone that they thoguht the WWF might be able to effectively utilize. At on epoint they had like 200 people signed to their roster. WCW was only able to turn a profit for two years out of its entire existence and the main reason why was cost. The amount of revenue required to cover their costs was ludicrous.
2. Turner Broadcasting was purchased by Time Warner, and Time Warner merged with AOL. They saw wrestling as low brow and weren't keen on being involved with it. Ted Turner himself is what kept wrestling alive on Turner Broadcasting. He was a wrestling fan and was loyal to the wrestling business becuase it helped him build his TV station in the early days. With Ted out of the picture, executives saw a product that was losing money, and was something they weren't fans of to begin with. It's easy to see why they wanted out.

For either of these things to be remedied, WCW would have to operate with an entirely diffierent apparatus. People also like to talk about how talent took advantage of WCW and how the loker room was a disaster. These factors would also require an entirely different structure to fix, and it's nearly impossible to speculate on what that might look like and how the world would be different.

Now, for the WWF to be put out of business, it's a little bit easier to speculate. Two main things contributed to their success.
1. Stone Cold Steve Austin
2. Vince McMahon
The greatest babyface and the greatest heel of all time, in the greatest feud of all time. This catapulted the WWF ahead of WCW, and was ultimately the inspiration for the entire WWF Attitude campaign that permeated the rest of the product. The WWF was eventually able to better tap into the popular culture of the late 1990s, and they were successful as a result. They were also able to more effectively utilize new talent and "build new stars." The Rock would become a major factor for their sustained success in late 1999 and 2000. For the WWF to fail, you would need one or more of these players out of the picture, and the WCW would not just have to be in a stae of survival, they would need to be thriving even more than they were in 1996/97. Again, tough to imagine the factors that would bring this about.

All that being said, if WCW were to win out in the end, it would be neccessary that they operate in a manner entirely different from how they operated in reality. Based on this fact, the wrestling business would probably be fine, as the WCW would have to be operating in a more sustainable and reasonable way.
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