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  #1  
Old 08-05-2015, 05:40 PM
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Default Putting Bret Harts Character on Trial

Let me start with this: I am/was/always will be a Bret Hart mark. His early 90s stuff was instrumental in me becoming a wrestling fan. The U.S./CAN stuff from 97 was pure gold and my favorite time ever in pro wrestling. Bret put together a heel run that has never been duplicated. Bret is a genius in the ring and can tell a story like no other. Later his career he was MONEY on the mic.

That being said, his attitude sucks. He's gotten a lot better the last few years but he comes off to me as egotistical and bitter. Over his career he was no different.

So the point of this thread is to discuss Bret Hart, the man.

I'm sick of him always getting a pass for his attitude and for never getting called out for not putting people over.
Examples:

Bulldogs will only drop the belts to the Harts because they feel as tho the Hart deserve it most. Sounds a little kliq-ish to me. Granted Bret is not the one politicking but his "kliq" is.
Source: Bret shoot 2, he sounds proud of this.

Bret Won't drop the belt to Mountie because he isn't worthy. They do the fever angle. Bret heroically stumbles to the ring despite a 104 degree fever vomits through the match and finally takes the pin.
Source: Bret admits not wanting to put over Mountie in his shoot. See highlights of the match if they are still out there.

Bret "politics" to not drop the IC title to Shawn at summerslam 92 and drops it, instead to family member Davey Boy. Great idea? Sure is ....... But the Kliq had great ideas about working matches with each other too....but there ideas are "politicking" source: Bret shoot 2 and Bret timeline 92

Bret doesn't want to drop the title to backlund because of his age. To his credit, Bret would later apologize for this and say it was an honor to do the job for bob. Source: Bret shoot 2

Bret doesn't want to drop the title to Michaels at WM12 because he had great matches leading up to mania and felt he was "just there to hand Shawn the belt" .......whatever that means.
Source: Bret shoot 2

Bret won't put over ANYONE in Montreal
Sources: numerous. check Cornettes timeline 97 and Russos shoot who were both on the writing team in 97

WCW: I've always been a WWF guy so I saw bits and pieces of Bret in WCW. Many say he was very hard to work with and didn't have the passion.

Rivalries DVD: Bret vs Shawn: Bret takes next to no responsibility for his part in their real life feud. He constantly hammers Shawn about the past even as Shawn continually apologizes. He seems to just not be able to get over it.

So.....am I the only one who feels Bret should at least get a little shit for his attitude and past actions like so many others?....discuss
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Old 08-05-2015, 07:31 PM
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I have to agree in principle, His attitude was horrible - but his crap attitude went far beyond how he treated fellow wrestlers, he was also a pr*ck with the fans - I had the chance to meet him on several occasions (while in WCW & WWF) and Everytime I met him he acted like an ass and like he was doing you a favor by looking your way. For years I've said that he put on some pretty decent matches & was a fantastic tag team wrestler but he definitely deserves some crap for being such an ass - if he was coming up through the ranks in this day & age he would be prey for the IWC
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Old 08-05-2015, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by OldSchoolWrestlingFan View Post
I have to agree in principle, His attitude was horrible - but his crap attitude went far beyond how he treated fellow wrestlers, he was also a pr*ck with the fans - I had the chance to meet him on several occasions (while in WCW & WWF) and Everytime I met him he acted like an ass and like he was doing you a favor by looking your way. For years I've said that he put on some pretty decent matches & was a fantastic tag team wrestler but he definitely deserves some crap for being such an ass - if he was coming up through the ranks in this day & age he would be prey for the IWC
How many times did you meet him? I met him and Owen on different occassions and both exceeded my expectations. I was 11 at the time. Even got a picture taken with the title over my shoulder. No complaints.
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Old 08-05-2015, 10:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HBKperfect23 View Post
I'm sick of him always getting a pass for his attitude and for never getting called out for not putting people over.
Actually I think Bret is regularly criticized here. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if Bret has more critics than fans on this forum.

Quote:
Bulldogs will only drop the belts to the Harts because they feel as tho the Hart deserve it most. Sounds a little kliq-ish to me. Granted Bret is not the one politicking but his "kliq" is.
Source: Bret shoot 2, he sounds proud of this.
To be fair, The Harts were clearly the best choice at the time. Did he mention any other options in his shoot? I doubt the office wanted to go in a different direction and were talked out of it.

Quote:
Bret Won't drop the belt to Mountie because he isn't worthy. They do the fever angle. Bret heroically stumbles to the ring despite a 104 degree fever vomits through the match and finally takes the pin.
Source: Bret admits not wanting to put over Mountie in his shoot. See highlights of the match if they are still out there.
I'd like to know exactly what Bret said about this because I've never bought this story. It seems so obvious to me what happened. Roddy Piper was about to retire. He never held a title in the WWF. He was going to get a title reign before he went out so they took the title off Bret so Piper could beat Mountie. To put Piper in position to challenge Mountie he came out to save Bret when Bret was vulnerable. By the time Bret is ready to compete again Piper is champ so he naturally wants a rematch. This sets up the classic between Bret and Piper at WM8. Piper gets a title reign and Bret gets the belt back at mania. Mountie was the definition of transition champion.

Quote:
Bret "politics" to not drop the IC title to Shawn at summerslam 92 and drops it, instead to family member Davey Boy. Great idea? Sure is ....... But the Kliq had great ideas about working matches with each other too....but there ideas are "politicking" source: Bret shoot 2 and Bret timeline 92
I don't know how much truth to this, but here's what I heard. Originally SummerSlam was going to be in Washington DC and it was going to be Bret vs. HBK. Business in the states was down in 92 but WWF was doing well in Europe so the event was moved to England. Once that change happened Bulldog was the obvious choice. I don't think it was "screw HBK I want my brother in law to have the belt." I think it was more "If we want to sell out Wembley Stadium let's put the belt on Davey." Just a logical choice.

Quote:
Bret doesn't want to drop the title to Michaels at WM12 because he had great matches leading up to mania and felt he was "just there to hand Shawn the belt" .......whatever that means.
Source: Bret shoot 2
Again, I don't think this was personal against Shawn. Business was floundering while Diesel was champion and Bret was feuding with guys like Hakushi, Yankem, and Pierre. Bret just felt he deserved the top spot again and didn't like being used as the guy to get the belt to HBK. Egotistical? Sure, but not personal.

Quote:
Bret won't put over ANYONE in Montreal
Sources: numerous. check Cornettes timeline 97 and Russos shoot who were both on the writing team in 97
I've never defended Bret when it comes to Montreal but when HBK flat out said to Bret's face he would never return the favor for WM12 I can't blame Bret too much for not wanting to lose to Shawn again.

Quote:
WCW: I've always been a WWF guy so I saw bits and pieces of Bret in WCW. Many say he was very hard to work with and didn't have the passion.
Bret has said it himself that he didn't have any passion. WCW was a train wreck and had no idea what they were doing. Bret was used to a very structured environment and WCW had no structure whatsoever. They couldn't commit to anything. Montreal took a lot of passion away from Bret and WCW's lack of direction sucked him dry.

Quote:
Rivalries DVD: Bret vs Shawn: Bret takes next to no responsibility for his part in their real life feud. He constantly hammers Shawn about the past even as Shawn continually apologizes. He seems to just not be able to get over it.
Bret doesn't feel like he was wrong and honestly until November 9, 1997 I'm not sure he was. Shawn was the real prick. While I still think he should have swallowed his pride and lost to Shawn in Montreal I don't blame him for feeling the way he does. Bret is a very proud guy. Wrestling was his whole life. He was born into the business. Not only was it a family business but he was the ultimate workhorse for Vince for 14 years. He feels his entire life's work was tarnished. Even though it's been nearly 20 years I can see it being hard to forgive. To his credit Bret finally did forgive, but he will never forget.

Last edited by The Brain : 08-05-2015 at 10:18 PM.
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  #5  
Old 08-05-2015, 10:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HBKperfect23 View Post
Let me start with this: I am/was/always will be a Bret Hart mark. His early 90s stuff was instrumental in me becoming a wrestling fan. The U.S./CAN stuff from 97 was pure gold and my favorite time ever in pro wrestling. Bret put together a heel run that has never been duplicated. Bret is a genius in the ring and can tell a story like no other. Later his career he was MONEY on the mic.

That being said, his attitude sucks. He's gotten a lot better the last few years but he comes off to me as egotistical and bitter. Over his career he was no different.

So the point of this thread is to discuss Bret Hart, the man.

I'm sick of him always getting a pass for his attitude and for never getting called out for not putting people over.
Examples:

Bulldogs will only drop the belts to the Harts because they feel as tho the Hart deserve it most. Sounds a little kliq-ish to me. Granted Bret is not the one politicking but his "kliq" is.
Source: Bret shoot 2, he sounds proud of this.

Bret Won't drop the belt to Mountie because he isn't worthy. They do the fever angle. Bret heroically stumbles to the ring despite a 104 degree fever vomits through the match and finally takes the pin.
Source: Bret admits not wanting to put over Mountie in his shoot. See highlights of the match if they are still out there.

Bret "politics" to not drop the IC title to Shawn at summerslam 92 and drops it, instead to family member Davey Boy. Great idea? Sure is ....... But the Kliq had great ideas about working matches with each other too....but there ideas are "politicking" source: Bret shoot 2 and Bret timeline 92

Bret doesn't want to drop the title to backlund because of his age. To his credit, Bret would later apologize for this and say it was an honor to do the job for bob. Source: Bret shoot 2

Bret doesn't want to drop the title to Michaels at WM12 because he had great matches leading up to mania and felt he was "just there to hand Shawn the belt" .......whatever that means.
Source: Bret shoot 2

Bret won't put over ANYONE in Montreal
Sources: numerous. check Cornettes timeline 97 and Russos shoot who were both on the writing team in 97

WCW: I've always been a WWF guy so I saw bits and pieces of Bret in WCW. Many say he was very hard to work with and didn't have the passion.

Rivalries DVD: Bret vs Shawn: Bret takes next to no responsibility for his part in their real life feud. He constantly hammers Shawn about the past even as Shawn continually apologizes. He seems to just not be able to get over it.

So.....am I the only one who feels Bret should at least get a little shit for his attitude and past actions like so many others?....discuss
If he's on trial he'll need a defense attorney and since I don't see Clarence Mason around, i'll take the job

First I don't think he does get a pass. He's criticized for his attitude all the time and is the subject of meme after meme.

The Bulldogs were not Bret's Kliq. Dynamite and Davey were on an island to themselves in the 80's. Pretty much everyone hated them. Bret has stated many times that Dynamite was a great wrestler but a lousy person, and he has even called Davey Boy immature and that he was given every opportunity to be a top guy and constantly found a way to screw it up.

The Mountie was a comedy act. Bret should never lose clean to a guy like The Mountie. I see nothing wrong with that. And I believe the only reason for it was so Piper could hold the IC title once in his career by beating the Mountie and setting up the Piper/Bret match at Mania.

I don't think it was Bret's decision to face Bulldog instead of Shawn. If he claims it was he's lying. Vince McMahon has final say in who faces who and more importantly what location the event is held at. If Vince felt Wembley was the better option than Washington DC then that's the reason Bulldog won the title that night instead of Shawn. No way you're going to have anyone other than Davey win in Wembley.

Ill have to go back and watch the shoot interview again, but I have a hard time believing Bret did not want to drop the belt to Shawn at Mania. I would say he, like a lot of guys at that time, perhaps felt underappreciated because the Kliq had so much say backstage and essentially had the show revolving around them for the better part of 2 years, but I dont think Bret ever refused to drop the title.

I've seen other interviews where Bret has listed guy after guy who he was willing to drop the belt to at Survivor Series. He has said all along that even amidst all their drama he approached Shawn and said he was the one guy he wanted to face on his last match and that he wanted to drop the belt to him, but Shawn retorted that if roles were reversed he wouldnt do the same. After that Bret changed his mind and thats what caused all the last minute problems.

As for Bret not taking responsibility for their real life feud, I honestly don't think he has to. If he did it would be a false equivalency. Shawn was an a-hole. He himself admits that. And his story for what happened leading up to Montreal has changed numerous times over the years and he is even on film in Brets documentary lying about his involvement. Why should Bret take half the blame when he really doesnt have to?

Brets definitely arrogant at times and an egomaniac. But he's a pro wrestler. Find one of them that isn't. Flair, Hulk, Shawn, go down the list and you wont find many that aren't. At least not at the main event level.

Think of it this way, think about how big of a jerk Shawn Michaels was despite the fact that he got everything he wanted. Now imagine he's the one who get's screwed over and then a year later watches the same company that screwed him over accidentally kill his brother. He'd be pissed too. I feel Bret's entitled to be just a little bit bitter. If that was Warrior, Shawn, CM Punk or FLair or any of the other hothead wrestlers over the years, you'd never hear the end of it. For the most part I think Bret's been pretty calm and professional over the years considering everything that happened. I've seen and heard wrestlers flip out and go on tirades for years over far less.
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Old 08-06-2015, 04:50 AM
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Originally Posted by MMK View Post
How many times did you meet him? I met him and Owen on different occassions and both exceeded my expectations. I was 11 at the time. Even got a picture taken with the title over my shoulder. No complaints.
Counting his time in WWF & WCW about 5-6 times - Owen was always great and very friendly but Everytime I met Bret he never smiled or acted personable - I'm not saying that he had to kiss our ass or anything, I just think he could have atleast smiled or something, onetime he was with Anvil & he looked at him and said at least act like you want to be here - I am not saying he was always that way but he was Everytime I experienced him
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Old 08-06-2015, 06:58 AM
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Ive met him a couple of times at autograph signings and he always seemed quite pleasant enough and answered my couple of questions I had each time, Never heard anyone else claim he had a bad attitude. I always thought most major stars were protective of their position and hessitant to put anyone else over its happened for years nothing new.
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Old 08-06-2015, 07:12 AM
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I'm not arguing the other points... but here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by HBKperfect23 View Post

Bret "politics" to not drop the IC title to Shawn at summerslam 92 and drops it, instead to family member Davey Boy. Great idea? Sure is ....... But the Kliq had great ideas about working matches with each other too....but there ideas are "politicking" source: Bret shoot 2 and Bret timeline 92
As Summerslam was moved to London why not put the IC title on Davey? to this day 1992 remains the hottest crowd and biggest venue for a Summerslam event.
Would the event have been as memorable if Shawn went over Bret in a midcard match and Bulldog took on some other midcarder? It was Bret vs Davey that made that Summerslam.

If the venue was Washington- Bret would have complied with the original plans. At that point there were no personal issues between Bret and Shawn.

Having the event in London - put Bulldog in the frame and a crowd pleasing finish to the show.
Shawn went over Bulldog 2 months later anyway... this simply delayed Shawn getting the belt slightly.
The outcome worked for all involved... and it remains an integral part of Summerslam history.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HBKperfect23 View Post
Bret won't put over ANYONE in Montreal
Sources: numerous. check Cornettes timeline 97 and Russos shoot who were both on the writing team in 97
Wasn't it just Shawn he wouldn't put over? Bret was willing to put over Austin.... or even as low down the roster as Lombardi... he was adamant he would not put Shawn (and only Shawn) over.
I think this is referenced in the Meltzer account of the Screwjob.

Everything else.... yes Bret did have an ego in a business full of egos... and some of it is justified.
I wouldn't quite compare the Harts to the Kliqs though..... many top guys speak up for their friends- this doesn't make Bret too different in that sense.
However the Kliq were widely hated by the lockeroom for the way they treated and looked down on others..... when has anyone said that about the likes of Owen and Davey?.... even Bret didn't show disrespect to jobbers.
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Old 08-06-2015, 07:53 AM
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Just to clarify a few things:

The Mountie: Bret never flat out refused to job to Mountie. He just made things difficult. I like the way everything played out, what I didn't like was Brets attitude towards the situation. Pretty much that Mountie didn't deserve the 2 day run.

Maybe I'm wrong here. The forum seems to look at Mountie as just a comedy act. I always liked Jacques. The Mountie character was over the top but I dug it at the time. Maybe they should have had someone else do the transition.

Webley 92: Yes Brain, I heard the same thing about DC. As soon as they considered Webley, Bret went to Vince with the DaveyBoy idea. I know he wasn't trying to screw over Shawn. It was just a generally good idea. It ended up being my all time favorite match and we still got a good Bret/Shawn match at survivor series. The execution of Brets awesome idea isn't my issue. My thing is the kliq had good ideas too but when they are paired together they get heat for politicking. I just think it should be an even playing field.

Shawn 96: again never flat out refused to put Shawn over. He just made things difficult. Nash tells a story of even Taker getting hot at Bret for not taking Nash's finish at IYH before WM12 (Bret wasn't going to get beat, taker was still going to interfer for a DQ). I think Bret was looking out for himself over what's best for everyone.

Montreal I don't blame him for not liking putting Shawn over. I don't blame him one bit. I do think he should have done it for Vince at a time where Vince needed him to do the job. I really do think Montreal came down to Bret really wanting to forfeit the title on his way out.

Again. I'm a Bret guy. I think he just needs to get a little shit like the kliq gets shit.
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Old 08-06-2015, 08:59 AM
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Didn't you do this thread before? I seem to remember someone posting this exact same thing and everyone tearing it to pieces maybe a year ago.

In other words, hi Shawn!
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